Cara, LCM was "spiritually angry." That's why the face meltings.
He was always spiritually angry.
Could be fun when relaxed, but you were always walking on eggshells in case that spiritual anger erupted again.
Yeah, I bet he has less spiritual anger or even ordinary human anger, in Home Depot or wherever he found a job. Wouldn't last long with the temper tantrums.
And, naturally, being the great MOG he was, he couldn't disern between being spiritual angry and being possesed by a spirit of anger.
I remember them using Jesus and the money changers to justify some of these tirades. Sad really. They kind of missed the boat on why He was so angry.
Spiritual anger? What is that? It is an evil excuse for being a big bully.
Good question, Geisha. What the heck is spiritual anger supposed to be? Anger is anger, and there ain't nothing spiritual about it. I wonder if VPW chose LCM in part because he got angry so easily and would help keep the lid on things by shouting down anyone who talked out of school? Didn't quite work out that way, did it.
Just in case someone has an answer at their fingertips, I have another question: I've been reading and reading (still have loads to wade through) and remember that Wordwolf mentioned somewhere that he and Raf (I think) had written to C. Gee[ about the idea of what God knows, his foreknowledge - I've tried searching for this subject and could be looking in the wrong place but wonder if this was actually directly discussed, the different ideas about it. I'll keep looking anyway and thanks to all for the interesting topics.
You remember correctly. We were responding to a position he held at the time. (I don't know what his
current position is.) He didn't use the term, but it was what's called "Openness Theology"
in Christian circles (or "Open Theism".) He stated it with a presentation on Genesis 3 he titled
"A Pivot Point in History." We both concluded that his presentation had a number of fundamental errors
in it, and addressed each in turn. We never intended to make its details public, so it was never
presented as such on the GSC. That having been said, there were some interesting ideas that WERE
discussed on a thread here. Personally, I think one of the thread's posters behaved poorly and kept
interrupting the discussion, but we had an interesting discussion around him, and addressed some
with apologies to Chris Tomlin: How great was LCM, sing with me, how great was the MOG, and all the world will see how great, how great was he. Name above all cursing. naw just can't do it.
screaming, yelling, ranting, all that yelling indeed. How great is King Okie, oh sing with me, how crazy was he, and all the world will see, how stupid, trying to be like VP. maybe a new song for Sing Along The Way
screaming, yelling, ranting, all that yelling indeed. How great is King Okie, oh sing with me, how crazy was he, and all the world will see, how stupid, trying to be like VP. maybe a new song for Sing Along The Way
loyboy was a dufus...a loud mouthed arrogant dufus...he wasn't only a cheapshot buyy, he also believed that every random thought that came into his meaty head was God speaking to him...and folks, that makes him mentally ill in my book. He's damn lucky he didn't end up in a sraight jacket doing the thorazine shuffle
luckily i missed most of martindale's insane years
but he was starting to lean that way when i knew him and so was tom jenkinson and chris geer (well he had already gone off the edge in my opinion) and some others
TJ already had his leanings prior to the Corps.
loyboy was a dufus...a loud mouthed arrogant dufus...he wasn't only a cheapshot buyy, he also believed that every random thought that came into his meaty head was God speaking to him...and folks, that makes him mentally ill in my book. He's damn lucky he didn't end up in a sraight jacket doing the thorazine shuffle
Hmm, has anyone seen him for awhile? Maybe he's...over nevermind.
Hello everybody - glad we're all still here. I was never in the Corps but have a question to do with the shouting/facemelting - was it taught that shouting would scare anything devilish away? I think I later heard something like that somewhere. And I remember people in the corps that I liked and admired and who I normally found warm and funny, that some of them could do the shouting bit also, and I wonder if they felt they had to do it.
Yelling and face melting...it was a way for insecure people (such as myself) to feel like they were in charge.
When we were briefly in the FWC in 1993, I began to suspect his rantings and ravings were a symptom of insanity, but pushed that thought away and tried to replace it with "he is soooooo spiritual." One 19th WC woman made it to Gunnison to do the LEAD thing, had a couple of bad asthma attacks and refused to go out into the wilderness, thinking, no doubt, she might have a fatal attack while out there. (My son has asthma and acute attacks are scary as heck).
You would have thought she had committed high treason from his .... fit. He had someone in charge put her up in a motel room until it was time to hitch hike home, since he didn't want the likes of her contaminating the holy grounds of Gunnison. At the Corps Night hookup while that group was off campus learning to rappel, etc, he had a mother-loving raging rant about them and their spiritual weakness and how prideful and so on and so forth, naming this unfortunate woman and detailing her many loathsome sins and shortcomings in microscopically and obscenely exquisite detail.
When they returned the whole group of them had to listen to that Corps Night rage, and I looked in the dining room and she had her head down crying as she listened to what he said about her. Her husband sat next to her, shame-faced at being married to such a loathsome, weak, unspiritual and worthy creature.
Oddly enough, they stuck it out and as far as I know are loyal Wayfers to this very day.
I am so dumb, my unspiritual mind kept saying "why didn't they take her to the nearest ER like anyone else would do with an acute asthma attack?" I mean, I certainly have no in-depth spiritual perception and awareness, but I do know how to treat someone who is having trouble breathing - "scoop and run" it's called. You can pray on the way to the emergency department.
And I guess the big thing about confrontation - I would NEVER let anyone speak about my husband in such a fashion, and I think this woman's husband should have stood up after the tape ended and announced that he was outraged that LCM would speak about his woman, the mother of his children, in such horrible terms. He could have then driven to NK and punched the SOB in his fat ugly nose. But nooooo, if LCM says your spouse is a piece of poo you better agree with it.
If he'd talked that way about Mr. Garden, I would have certainly urged Mr. Garden and the Sprout to get the he11 away from there.
I have been dealing with some serious "facemeltings" at work from someone in a position of authority recently - and I have reached me breaking point. It hit me suddenly last week that this is exactly the same thing I suffered through with twi leadership. And more importantly, I don't have to put up with the abuse just because someone is in a position of authority. Guess I have grown a bit of a backbone since I got out.
I filed a formal complaint with the CEO on Friday.
Growing up in twi I thought yelling and screaming was normal behavior. And I thought taking it was being meek.
I have been dealing with some serious "facemeltings" at work from someone in a position of authority recently - and I have reached me breaking point. It hit me suddenly last week that this is exactly the same thing I suffered through with twi leadership. And more importantly, I don't have to put up with the abuse just because someone is in a position of authority. Guess I have grown a bit of a backbone since I got out.
I filed a formal complaint with the CEO on Friday.
Growing up in twi I thought yelling and screaming was normal behavior. And I thought taking it was being meek.
Interesting that this thread, "Confronting LCM" is so named. No-one could really confront the Great Man during his tenure. I honestly don't think he can be unaware of the Cafe and the things that get discussed here. Word gets around! Maybe he lurks...I doubt it though.
But he won't come here and be confronted. Much less apologize.
Both would require rather too much humility. Or, to use his favorite word, "meekness."
You remember correctly. We were responding to a position he held at the time. (I don't know what his
current position is.) He didn't use the term, but it was what's called "Openness Theology"
in Christian circles (or "Open Theism".) He stated it with a presentation on Genesis 3 he titled
"A Pivot Point in History." We both concluded that his presentation had a number of fundamental errors
in it, and addressed each in turn. We never intended to make its details public, so it was never
presented as such on the GSC. That having been said, there were some interesting ideas that WERE
discussed on a thread here. Personally, I think one of the thread's posters behaved poorly and kept
interrupting the discussion, but we had an interesting discussion around him, and addressed some
issues that the original paper never touched on.
The thread was called "What does God know?"
Thank you very much, Wordwolf. I've read it through once (it's currently on p 16 of doctrine threads) and will again - very thoughtful, thought-provoking posts, only one demanding poster, not so bad - and think I might even have notes on an "Open Theology" teaching, not that I knew it was called that. I can picture the atemporal God, who sees both the current me making decisions and the future me with the results, and am certain that I'm the one choosing. I can also picture a benign father, looking on in an entertained way as a mutinous child heads for trouble, knowing he's going to have to do some helping and comforting soon. I don't want to go too far down the imagination road though when there's so much about him already told, think I'd better concentrate on Him, and I appreciate very much that so many verses were brought into the posts.
Congratulations on your fatherhhod!
From Watered Garden
"When they returned the whole group of them had to listen to that Corps Night rage, and I looked in the dining room and she had her head down crying as she listened to what he said about her. Her husband sat next to her, shame-faced at being married to such a loathsome, weak, unspiritual and worthy creature.
Oddly enough, they stuck it out and as far as I know are loyal Wayfers to this very day.
I am so dumb, my unspiritual mind kept saying "why didn't they take her to the nearest ER like anyone else would do with an acute asthma attack?" I mean, I certainly have no in-depth spiritual perception and awareness, but I do know how to treat someone who is having trouble breathing - "scoop and run" it's called. You can pray on the way to the emergency department.
And I guess the big thing about confrontation - I would NEVER let anyone speak about my husband in such a fashion, and I think this woman's husband should have stood up after the tape ended and announced that he was outraged that LCM would speak about his woman, the mother of his children, in such horrible terms. He could have then driven to NK and punched the SOB in his fat ugly nose. But nooooo, if LCM says your spouse is a piece of poo you better agree with it."
Confronting, when nobody else can interrupt whether because of politeness or distance- how brave.
It humors me that the follower of the Way will on one hand blame LCM for the ministry's current situation . . . but on the other fight for some form of vindication for him . . . (is that stockholm syndrome? I don't know) . . . he still has value
Someone once told me that this "spiritually angry" persona LCM developed was nothing more than a front. They told me in actuality he was a coward (he used a different expression that starts with "chicken" and ends in a word that rhymes with "hit"). He said if confronted he would just avoid the person...maybe not on the phone, but face to face. I dunno, my acquaintance was kind of PO'd about a few things regarding LCM. He's also a pretty big guy.
Someone once told me that this "spiritually angry" persona LCM developed was nothing more than a front. They told me in actuality he was a coward (he used a different expression that starts with "chicken" and ends in a word that rhymes with "hit"). He said if confronted he would just avoid the person...maybe not on the phone, but face to face. I dunno, my acquaintance was kind of PO'd about a few things regarding LCM. He's also a pretty big guy.
Its very possible, BA. People often act the contrary, overcompensating for what they really feel like inside. Anytime you see an overreaction, you should always ask, "What's really going on here?"
As for lcm, he always struck me as being out of his league, way ove rhis head. Scaring people through anger probably made him feel more in control of a situation that he felt was spiraling out of control.
As far as micromanaging, well that just shows a lack of trust in his people. Nobody can do it right but except for him. And if somebody makes a mistake in a situation spiraling out of control, well disaster can occur. So he had to do it all himself.
Someone once told me that this "spiritually angry" persona LCM developed was nothing more than a front. They told me in actuality he was a coward (he used a different expression that starts with "chicken" and ends in a word that rhymes with "hit"). He said if confronted he would just avoid the person...maybe not on the phone, but face to face. I dunno, my acquaintance was kind of PO'd about a few things regarding LCM. He's also a pretty big guy.
A lot of bullies back down when stood up to.....when someone calls their bluff.
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mstar1
TWI was bound to fail no matter who was at the presidential helm because it had no system of checks and balances.It did not work together as a 'body', nor did it honor that God could possibly work in
waysider
You should have sent him a bill for career counseling. Your advise was spot on.
excathedra
very sad to be afraid of insane people because you love god
So_crates
And, naturally, being the great MOG he was, he couldn't disern between being spiritual angry and being possesed by a spirit of anger.
SoCrates
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geisha779
I remember them using Jesus and the money changers to justify some of these tirades. Sad really. They kind of missed the boat on why He was so angry.
Spiritual anger? What is that? It is an evil excuse for being a big bully.
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OperaBuff
Good question, Geisha. What the heck is spiritual anger supposed to be? Anger is anger, and there ain't nothing spiritual about it. I wonder if VPW chose LCM in part because he got angry so easily and would help keep the lid on things by shouting down anyone who talked out of school? Didn't quite work out that way, did it.
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WordWolf
You remember correctly. We were responding to a position he held at the time. (I don't know what his
current position is.) He didn't use the term, but it was what's called "Openness Theology"
in Christian circles (or "Open Theism".) He stated it with a presentation on Genesis 3 he titled
"A Pivot Point in History." We both concluded that his presentation had a number of fundamental errors
in it, and addressed each in turn. We never intended to make its details public, so it was never
presented as such on the GSC. That having been said, there were some interesting ideas that WERE
discussed on a thread here. Personally, I think one of the thread's posters behaved poorly and kept
interrupting the discussion, but we had an interesting discussion around him, and addressed some
issues that the original paper never touched on.
The thread was called "What does God know?"
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
screaming, yelling, ranting, all that yelling indeed. How great is King Okie, oh sing with me, how crazy was he, and all the world will see, how stupid, trying to be like VP.
maybe a new song for Sing Along The Way 
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GrouchoMarxJr
loyboy was a dufus...a loud mouthed arrogant dufus...he wasn't only a cheapshot buyy, he also believed that every random thought that came into his meaty head was God speaking to him...and folks, that makes him mentally ill in my book. He's damn lucky he didn't end up in a sraight jacket doing the thorazine shuffle
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Broken Arrow
TJ already had his leanings prior to the Corps.
Hmm, has anyone seen him for awhile? Maybe he's...over nevermind.
Yelling and face melting...it was a way for insecure people (such as myself) to feel like they were in charge.
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Watered Garden
When we were briefly in the FWC in 1993, I began to suspect his rantings and ravings were a symptom of insanity, but pushed that thought away and tried to replace it with "he is soooooo spiritual." One 19th WC woman made it to Gunnison to do the LEAD thing, had a couple of bad asthma attacks and refused to go out into the wilderness, thinking, no doubt, she might have a fatal attack while out there. (My son has asthma and acute attacks are scary as heck).
You would have thought she had committed high treason from his .... fit. He had someone in charge put her up in a motel room until it was time to hitch hike home, since he didn't want the likes of her contaminating the holy grounds of Gunnison. At the Corps Night hookup while that group was off campus learning to rappel, etc, he had a mother-loving raging rant about them and their spiritual weakness and how prideful and so on and so forth, naming this unfortunate woman and detailing her many loathsome sins and shortcomings in microscopically and obscenely exquisite detail.
When they returned the whole group of them had to listen to that Corps Night rage, and I looked in the dining room and she had her head down crying as she listened to what he said about her. Her husband sat next to her, shame-faced at being married to such a loathsome, weak, unspiritual and worthy creature.
Oddly enough, they stuck it out and as far as I know are loyal Wayfers to this very day.
I am so dumb, my unspiritual mind kept saying "why didn't they take her to the nearest ER like anyone else would do with an acute asthma attack?" I mean, I certainly have no in-depth spiritual perception and awareness, but I do know how to treat someone who is having trouble breathing - "scoop and run" it's called. You can pray on the way to the emergency department.
And I guess the big thing about confrontation - I would NEVER let anyone speak about my husband in such a fashion, and I think this woman's husband should have stood up after the tape ended and announced that he was outraged that LCM would speak about his woman, the mother of his children, in such horrible terms. He could have then driven to NK and punched the SOB in his fat ugly nose. But nooooo, if LCM says your spouse is a piece of poo you better agree with it.
If he'd talked that way about Mr. Garden, I would have certainly urged Mr. Garden and the Sprout to get the he11 away from there.
LCM's behavior was inexcusable. Period.
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excathedra
very sad to be afraid of insane people because you love god
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JavaJane
I have been dealing with some serious "facemeltings" at work from someone in a position of authority recently - and I have reached me breaking point. It hit me suddenly last week that this is exactly the same thing I suffered through with twi leadership. And more importantly, I don't have to put up with the abuse just because someone is in a position of authority. Guess I have grown a bit of a backbone since I got out.
I filed a formal complaint with the CEO on Friday.
Growing up in twi I thought yelling and screaming was normal behavior. And I thought taking it was being meek.
Not anymore.
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So_crates
SoCrates
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OldSkool
Good for you, fight the power!
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Twinky
Interesting that this thread, "Confronting LCM" is so named. No-one could really confront the Great Man during his tenure. I honestly don't think he can be unaware of the Cafe and the things that get discussed here. Word gets around! Maybe he lurks...I doubt it though.
But he won't come here and be confronted. Much less apologize.
Both would require rather too much humility. Or, to use his favorite word, "meekness."
No. Not his style at all.
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Bolshevik
I don't know why I named it that way exactly . . . I was thinking from the perspective of the wayfer's rationalization of the man.
Pulls out pom poms for JJ!
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JavaJane
thanks, guys. As one of my cousins said, I need to "channel my inner badass."
I am doing so now. And if they fire me, I'll go litigious on their @$$es.
I've had my share of abuse from the cult I was in, I don't need it from my employer.
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cara
Thank you very much, Wordwolf. I've read it through once (it's currently on p 16 of doctrine threads) and will again - very thoughtful, thought-provoking posts, only one demanding poster, not so bad - and think I might even have notes on an "Open Theology" teaching, not that I knew it was called that. I can picture the atemporal God, who sees both the current me making decisions and the future me with the results, and am certain that I'm the one choosing. I can also picture a benign father, looking on in an entertained way as a mutinous child heads for trouble, knowing he's going to have to do some helping and comforting soon. I don't want to go too far down the imagination road though when there's so much about him already told, think I'd better concentrate on Him, and I appreciate very much that so many verses were brought into the posts.
Congratulations on your fatherhhod!
From Watered Garden
"When they returned the whole group of them had to listen to that Corps Night rage, and I looked in the dining room and she had her head down crying as she listened to what he said about her. Her husband sat next to her, shame-faced at being married to such a loathsome, weak, unspiritual and worthy creature.
Oddly enough, they stuck it out and as far as I know are loyal Wayfers to this very day.
I am so dumb, my unspiritual mind kept saying "why didn't they take her to the nearest ER like anyone else would do with an acute asthma attack?" I mean, I certainly have no in-depth spiritual perception and awareness, but I do know how to treat someone who is having trouble breathing - "scoop and run" it's called. You can pray on the way to the emergency department.
And I guess the big thing about confrontation - I would NEVER let anyone speak about my husband in such a fashion, and I think this woman's husband should have stood up after the tape ended and announced that he was outraged that LCM would speak about his woman, the mother of his children, in such horrible terms. He could have then driven to NK and punched the SOB in his fat ugly nose. But nooooo, if LCM says your spouse is a piece of poo you better agree with it."
Confronting, when nobody else can interrupt whether because of politeness or distance- how brave.
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Bolshevik
It humors me that the follower of the Way will on one hand blame LCM for the ministry's current situation . . . but on the other fight for some form of vindication for him . . . (is that stockholm syndrome? I don't know) . . . he still has value
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Broken Arrow
Someone once told me that this "spiritually angry" persona LCM developed was nothing more than a front. They told me in actuality he was a coward (he used a different expression that starts with "chicken" and ends in a word that rhymes with "hit"). He said if confronted he would just avoid the person...maybe not on the phone, but face to face. I dunno, my acquaintance was kind of PO'd about a few things regarding LCM. He's also a pretty big guy.
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So_crates
Its very possible, BA. People often act the contrary, overcompensating for what they really feel like inside. Anytime you see an overreaction, you should always ask, "What's really going on here?"
As for lcm, he always struck me as being out of his league, way ove rhis head. Scaring people through anger probably made him feel more in control of a situation that he felt was spiraling out of control.
As far as micromanaging, well that just shows a lack of trust in his people. Nobody can do it right but except for him. And if somebody makes a mistake in a situation spiraling out of control, well disaster can occur. So he had to do it all himself.
SoCrates
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Twinky
I think he was angry all right - but at himself, his wife...maybe VPW.
Couldn't express it to those people so took it out on the Corps, especially the in-rez Corps.
Perhaps LCM was the biggest dupe of all.
But he didn't have to be the biggest prat (I'm being nice) of all.
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geisha779
A lot of bullies back down when stood up to.....when someone calls their bluff.
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