wonder if Craig ever mouthed off at his parents especially after the fog years when they visited HQ during lunchtime. I would love to see that and have his father threaten to belt Craig in front of the staff
Who were you going to believe? Don't forget, the "green book" plainly said that the first step in the demise of the first century church was that they turned their backs on the Man of God. It was also completely unbelievable to me at the time that Wierwille or Martindale would engage in willful sin and most people, I think, thought like I did.
One of the things that's recently crossed my mind is: did the MOG do something to make the people turn their collective backs on him? Seems to me we were getting only one side of the story.
And with Saint Vic, Craigmeister, and Rip-N-Bark to fill in the blanks on the other side...
One of the things that's recently crossed my mind is: did the MOG do something to make the people turn their collective backs on him? Seems to me we were getting only one side of the story.
And with Saint Vic, Craigmeister, and Rip-N-Bark to fill in the blanks on the other side...
SoCrates
I think the answer is obvious with LCM. VP is a different story. There are still people in and out of TWI who still worship him. But you're right, many have disavowed their association with him.
One of the things about brainwashing, or so I've been told, is that for the brainwashing to continue, the victim needs to contiually be reinforced by the group. As people have left and begin to live life and get older, many see what a ruse VP really was. We're no longer ga ga-ed 21-year-olds searching for an identity and approval of a group.
I know it was gradual for me. I thought he was the man for a good 10 years after I left. A natural disaster would occur, like the Oklahoma City Bombing. I said, "It's because we no longer have the believing of 'Dr. Wierwille' present so the door is open for devil spirit activity." I'm embarrassed I ever thought that way. I wasn't the only one.
But as time went on and my thinking faculties started to kick in, I began to see things in a true light.
wonder if Craig ever mouthed off at his parents especially after the fog years when they visited HQ during lunchtime. I would love to see that and have his father threaten to belt Craig in front of the staff
[/quoter. Mr. Martindale: I don't care if you are President of The Way. You don't sass me or your mother or threaten us. You are not too old to get a belting boy, here in front of the staff.
TWI was bound to fail no matter who was at the presidential helm because it had no system of checks and balances.It did not work together as a 'body', nor did it honor that God could possibly work in anyone outside of the president. It had near all power vested in one man.
That setup was VP's doing. It was set up much more like a third world dictatorship than a body of christians with common goals.
LCM or Wierwille for that matter, could have been confronted, maybe even restored if had been set up properly but VP had enough of that in the church and set up his own regime to make himself darn near invulnerable and unquestionable--It was pretty much doomed from the gitgo when time tested working traditions of church governance were all trashed.
I think this is part of why TWI is in the category of a cult. Unchecked power. No "union" at HQ for workers to unite. :-)
LCM could not be counseled because he knew the Word better and could dispute people's points using The Word better than anyone today . . . he could put ideas together faster . . . that's why nobody could correct him . . . because nobody today knows The Word like LCM.
Anyone heard that one?
Maybe I shoulda posted it in the humor forum . . .
I remember hearing things like that for years ....with VP, the one that stuck with me for some reason, even after I left TWI....was that all VP's contemporaries, Oral Roberts, Billy Graham, and whoever else, knew that he was right. It was something about how VP had personally spoken with them and they admitted privately to him that they knew he was teaching the right word. The emphasis was on JCNG, and that they couldn't or wouldn't speak up because of money. It would upset the applecart too much. That was why they shunned him, and VP's integrity was why he had to speak out, and why he would not bend to them. Was that in a class maybe?
LCM, by most accounts, was a brute and a bully. I wasn't around him too much, but when I was...he really creeped me out. Instead of listening to myself and paying attention to my thoughts about him being incredibly arrogant and vulgar...I turned on myself and thought I was possessed. How sick is that? I thought I must be possessed and the "devil spirits" bothering me were reacting to the "light" that emanated from the MOG. Okay, writing that out just makes it sound even more insane. Not something to share in mixed company.
VP & LCM, were isolated and insulated. They never put themselves in a position where someone who wasn't a sycophant could really confront them about what they taught. If someone in TWI did, they could vilify them before and after they gave them the boot. They had control. People outside of the ministry did confront them from a distance. Much of that was what we considered an attack by the adversary. They fed on that kind of "persecution".
VPW, LCM, and CG were paranoid. always wondered what if WC, RD, or other more "reasonable" people would have eventually become power hungry or if they modified the public attitude or TWI to truly be more ecumenical. :blink:
Its nothing to be embarassed about. Think of it as a learning experience.
In some psychological fields it what's known as inoculation: the process of formulating an opinion about a person before the need for an opinion arises.
You saw this with the all-the-other-ministers-admit-Saint-Vic-was-right-in-private-but-they- won't-admit-it-publically-because-of-money schtick. It formulated your opinion about what Saint Vic taught before questions about it could arise.
It was the same thing with the devils spirits. Anybody who would be offended or contest a MOG must be posessed. Its one of the ways Saint Vic and his sidekicks controlled the narrative and marginalized decenting voices. Again, before you opened your mouth, the decision was made.
So from here on out, IRL, in the workplace or in groups: when you hear "He's crazy" or "He jealous" or "There's something wrong with them" don't let the group decide whether that person should be marginalized, decide for yourself.
So from here on out, IRL, in the workplace or in groups: when you hear "He's crazy" or "He jealous" or "There's something wrong with them" don't let the group decide whether that person should be marginalized, decide for yourself.
Good to be reminded about, Socrates.
LCM, by most accounts, was a brute and a bully. I wasn't around him too much, but when I was...he really creeped me out. Instead of listening to myself and paying attention to my thoughts about him being incredibly arrogant and vulgar...I turned on myself and thought I was possessed. How sick is that? I thought I must be possessed and the "devil spirits" bothering me were reacting to the "light" that emanated from the MOG. Okay, writing that out just makes it sound even more insane. Not something to share in mixed company.
Know just what you mean, Geisha.
Unfortunately I did get to spend time with him...when it couldn't be avoided. Facemeltings and all.
luckily i missed most of martindale's insane years
but he was starting to lean that way when i knew him and so was tom jenkinson and chris geer (well he had already gone off the edge in my opinion) and some others
luckily i missed most of martindale's insane years
but he was starting to lean that way when i knew him and so was tom jenkinson and chris geer (well he had already gone off the edge in my opinion) and some others
Hello everybody - glad we're all still here. I was never in the Corps but have a question to do with the shouting/facemelting - was it taught that shouting would scare anything devilish away? I think I later heard something like that somewhere. And I remember people in the corps that I liked and admired and who I normally found warm and funny, that some of them could do the shouting bit also, and I wonder if they felt they had to do it.
Just in case someone has an answer at their fingertips, I have another question: I've been reading and reading (still have loads to wade through) and remember that Wordwolf mentioned somewhere that he and Raf (I think) had written to C. Gee[ about the idea of what God knows, his foreknowledge - I've tried searching for this subject and could be looking in the wrong place but wonder if this was actually directly discussed, the different ideas about it. I'll keep looking anyway and thanks to all for the interesting topics.
the yelling and face melting just seemed to be "a way" (snort) for crazy people to feel like they were important
Thanks for answering, o chair person. I suppose I was thinking of the relatively minor (but still uncalled-for) shouting in the outlying areas, eg, if someone said christmas or if someone had their eyes closed during a teaching, rather than the real crazy behavior to the Corps themselves that I've seen described here - a trickle-down effect maybe, unintentionally learned.
i feel pretty certain that some good folks followed the "big leaders" and what they were taught in the corps program
one can think they are doing something for god and be very wrong -- wouldn't you agree?
--
nothing to do with face melting or yelling, but i can remember telling a lovely "corps sister" some bullsheet that i was taught -- it's too painful to get into right now
I haven't read all the posts so I apologize if this has been discussed already but...
We are talking about a man that for over a decade marked and avoided anyone that disagreed with him or anyone that he felt like booting when he had a bad day. This was a man that would scream and spit at his fawning audience challenging them "you think you know more about what the Word says about love? I defy anyone who thinks they do!" (paraphrased) No matter what anyone says, how great so and so was and what sort of stand they took yadda yadda yadda. If they were still around at the time of LCM's dismissal they had spent over a decade either shaking in their shoes or kissing his.
Regardless of what you think about the Bible and spiritual things like revelation and God working in people, the finals days of the LCM reign showed that clearly none of that was happening in TWI and especially not in the upper echelons. Just another typical fraudulent tabloid religious group.
with apologies to Chris Tomlin: How great was LCM, sing with me, how great was the MOG, and all the world will see how great, how great was he. Name above all cursing. naw just can't do it.
the yelling and face melting just seemed to be "a way" (snort) for crazy people to feel like they were important
I wonder if he still throws temper tantrums. Does he have anyone to listen to them? Does he have anyone to care if he throws one?
I haven't read all the posts so I apologize if this has been discussed already but...
We are talking about a man that for over a decade marked and avoided anyone that disagreed with him or anyone that he felt like booting when he had a bad day. This was a man that would scream and spit at his fawning audience challenging them "you think you know more about what the Word says about love? I defy anyone who thinks they do!" (paraphrased) No matter what anyone says, how great so and so was and what sort of stand they took yadda yadda yadda. If they were still around at the time of LCM's dismissal they had spent over a decade either shaking in their shoes or kissing his.
Regardless of what you think about the Bible and spiritual things like revelation and God working in people, the finals days of the LCM reign showed that clearly none of that was happening in TWI and especially not in the upper echelons. Just another typical fraudulent tabloid religious group.
I remember he would talk about how pure his heart was. GAG.
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mstar1
TWI was bound to fail no matter who was at the presidential helm because it had no system of checks and balances.It did not work together as a 'body', nor did it honor that God could possibly work in
waysider
You should have sent him a bill for career counseling. Your advise was spot on.
excathedra
very sad to be afraid of insane people because you love god
excathedra
i'll never forget when vnce fnngn tore me to shreads when i was on staff for some little stupid mistake i made in word processing
i went to my dept head um coordinator to tell on him
she said he was under so much spiritual pressure
i said he should get another job
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mstar1
She was wrong--if he tore you to shreds over some little thing, the correct term, rightly divided and all is he is an a-hole
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waysider
You should have sent him a bill for career counseling. Your advise was spot on.
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Broken Arrow
As well as insecure.
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excathedra
thanks you guys
they didn't know crapola
they hid behind their big titles and responsibilities leader of the world leader of the trunk worldwide outreach loser blah blah blah
it would be so cool now to go back to a corps week or corps meeting and get that microphone in my hand and say what i think lol
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
wonder if Craig ever mouthed off at his parents especially after the fog years when they visited HQ during lunchtime. I would love to see that and have his father threaten to belt Craig in front of the staff
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So_crates
One of the things that's recently crossed my mind is: did the MOG do something to make the people turn their collective backs on him? Seems to me we were getting only one side of the story.
And with Saint Vic, Craigmeister, and Rip-N-Bark to fill in the blanks on the other side...
SoCrates
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Broken Arrow
I think the answer is obvious with LCM. VP is a different story. There are still people in and out of TWI who still worship him. But you're right, many have disavowed their association with him.
One of the things about brainwashing, or so I've been told, is that for the brainwashing to continue, the victim needs to contiually be reinforced by the group. As people have left and begin to live life and get older, many see what a ruse VP really was. We're no longer ga ga-ed 21-year-olds searching for an identity and approval of a group.
I know it was gradual for me. I thought he was the man for a good 10 years after I left. A natural disaster would occur, like the Oklahoma City Bombing. I said, "It's because we no longer have the believing of 'Dr. Wierwille' present so the door is open for devil spirit activity." I'm embarrassed I ever thought that way. I wasn't the only one.
But as time went on and my thinking faculties started to kick in, I began to see things in a true light.
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GeorgeStGeorge
Would you prefere a LARGER one? :o
:lol: George
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So_crates
Well, you can throw darts at the larger one.
SoCrates
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
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penworks
I think this is part of why TWI is in the category of a cult. Unchecked power. No "union" at HQ for workers to unite. :-)
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geisha779
I remember hearing things like that for years ....with VP, the one that stuck with me for some reason, even after I left TWI....was that all VP's contemporaries, Oral Roberts, Billy Graham, and whoever else, knew that he was right. It was something about how VP had personally spoken with them and they admitted privately to him that they knew he was teaching the right word. The emphasis was on JCNG, and that they couldn't or wouldn't speak up because of money. It would upset the applecart too much. That was why they shunned him, and VP's integrity was why he had to speak out, and why he would not bend to them. Was that in a class maybe?
LCM, by most accounts, was a brute and a bully. I wasn't around him too much, but when I was...he really creeped me out. Instead of listening to myself and paying attention to my thoughts about him being incredibly arrogant and vulgar...I turned on myself and thought I was possessed. How sick is that? I thought I must be possessed and the "devil spirits" bothering me were reacting to the "light" that emanated from the MOG. Okay, writing that out just makes it sound even more insane. Not something to share in mixed company.
VP & LCM, were isolated and insulated. They never put themselves in a position where someone who wasn't a sycophant could really confront them about what they taught. If someone in TWI did, they could vilify them before and after they gave them the boot. They had control. People outside of the ministry did confront them from a distance. Much of that was what we considered an attack by the adversary. They fed on that kind of "persecution".
It all seems pretty embarrassing now.....
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
VPW, LCM, and CG were paranoid. always wondered what if WC, RD, or other more "reasonable" people would have eventually become power hungry or if they modified the public attitude or TWI to truly be more ecumenical.
:blink: 
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So_crates
Its nothing to be embarassed about. Think of it as a learning experience.
In some psychological fields it what's known as inoculation: the process of formulating an opinion about a person before the need for an opinion arises.
You saw this with the all-the-other-ministers-admit-Saint-Vic-was-right-in-private-but-they- won't-admit-it-publically-because-of-money schtick. It formulated your opinion about what Saint Vic taught before questions about it could arise.
It was the same thing with the devils spirits. Anybody who would be offended or contest a MOG must be posessed. Its one of the ways Saint Vic and his sidekicks controlled the narrative and marginalized decenting voices. Again, before you opened your mouth, the decision was made.
So from here on out, IRL, in the workplace or in groups: when you hear "He's crazy" or "He jealous" or "There's something wrong with them" don't let the group decide whether that person should be marginalized, decide for yourself.
SoCrates
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Twinky
Good to be reminded about, Socrates.
Know just what you mean, Geisha.
Unfortunately I did get to spend time with him...when it couldn't be avoided. Facemeltings and all.
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excathedra
luckily i missed most of martindale's insane years
but he was starting to lean that way when i knew him and so was tom jenkinson and chris geer (well he had already gone off the edge in my opinion) and some others
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cara
Hello everybody - glad we're all still here. I was never in the Corps but have a question to do with the shouting/facemelting - was it taught that shouting would scare anything devilish away? I think I later heard something like that somewhere. And I remember people in the corps that I liked and admired and who I normally found warm and funny, that some of them could do the shouting bit also, and I wonder if they felt they had to do it.
Just in case someone has an answer at their fingertips, I have another question: I've been reading and reading (still have loads to wade through) and remember that Wordwolf mentioned somewhere that he and Raf (I think) had written to C. Gee[ about the idea of what God knows, his foreknowledge - I've tried searching for this subject and could be looking in the wrong place but wonder if this was actually directly discussed, the different ideas about it. I'll keep looking anyway and thanks to all for the interesting topics.
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excathedra
i really don't know cara
the yelling and face melting just seemed to be "a way" (snort) for crazy people to feel like they were important
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cara
Thanks for answering, o chair person. I suppose I was thinking of the relatively minor (but still uncalled-for) shouting in the outlying areas, eg, if someone said christmas or if someone had their eyes closed during a teaching, rather than the real crazy behavior to the Corps themselves that I've seen described here - a trickle-down effect maybe, unintentionally learned.
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excathedra
i feel pretty certain that some good folks followed the "big leaders" and what they were taught in the corps program
one can think they are doing something for god and be very wrong -- wouldn't you agree?
--
nothing to do with face melting or yelling, but i can remember telling a lovely "corps sister" some bullsheet that i was taught -- it's too painful to get into right now
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lindyhopper
I haven't read all the posts so I apologize if this has been discussed already but...
We are talking about a man that for over a decade marked and avoided anyone that disagreed with him or anyone that he felt like booting when he had a bad day. This was a man that would scream and spit at his fawning audience challenging them "you think you know more about what the Word says about love? I defy anyone who thinks they do!" (paraphrased) No matter what anyone says, how great so and so was and what sort of stand they took yadda yadda yadda. If they were still around at the time of LCM's dismissal they had spent over a decade either shaking in their shoes or kissing his.
Regardless of what you think about the Bible and spiritual things like revelation and God working in people, the finals days of the LCM reign showed that clearly none of that was happening in TWI and especially not in the upper echelons. Just another typical fraudulent tabloid religious group.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
with apologies to Chris Tomlin: How great was LCM, sing with me, how great was the MOG, and all the world will see how great, how great was he. Name above all cursing. naw just can't do it.
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100% Free
I wonder if he still throws temper tantrums. Does he have anyone to listen to them? Does he have anyone to care if he throws one?
I remember he would talk about how pure his heart was. GAG.
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