LCM could not be counseled because he knew the Word better and could dispute people's points using The Word better than anyone today . . . he could put ideas together faster . . . that's why nobody could correct him . . . because nobody today knows The Word like LCM.
Anyone heard that one?
Maybe I shoulda posted it in the humor forum . . .
I don't buy this and I'll tell you why. A little bit of twi doctrine called gift ministries. You mean, in all of twi, there wasn't one prophet willing to stand up to Saint Vic or the Craigmeister?
Even if Craigmeister knew the word better and could put together ideas fast, prophets speak for God, as the doctrine goes, and they find away to make the person listen. Look at King David, that prophet got him to listen.
That's one of the things that have stuck in my craw since hearing about Saint Vic and Craigmeisters little indescretions. Where were the prophets to get them back on track?
I don't buy this and I'll tell you why. A little bit of twi doctrine called gift ministries. You mean, in all of twi, there wasn't one prophet willing to stand up to Saint Vic or the Craigmeister?
Even if Craigmeister knew the word better and could put together ideas fast, prophets speak for God, as the doctrine goes, and they find away to make the person listen. Look at King David, that prophet got him to listen.
That's one of the things that have stuck in my craw since hearing about Saint Vic and Craigmeisters little indescretions. Where were the prophets to get them back on track?
SoCrates
They were fired, discredited, and sometimes were even attacked by VP's dogs. Check out Dubofsky on Greasespot radio. Of course, that's after VP, but he talks about some other things.
They were fired, discredited, and sometimes were even attacked by VP's dogs. Check out Dubofsky on Greasespot radio. Of course, that's after VP, but he talks about some other things.
Understood. But look at Jeremiah, he kept warning Isreal for how long?
Again, if God's hands were in the ministry the whole indescresion thing would not have gone as far as it did.
Understood. But look at Jeremiah, he kept warning Isreal for how long?
Again, if God's hands were in the ministry the whole indescresion thing would not have gone as far as it did.
SoCrates
Right, but these guys were out and TWI would quickly spread rumors about them. That way, they had no public platform to say anything, and the people they talked to would not believe them because they had been discredited. That actually happened to a number of people.
these guys were out and TWI would quickly spread rumors about them.
Is this a godly thing to do?
When the third person was outed and rumors were being spread, people should have started getting a clue.
Someone serves the ministry for a number of years and then they're suddenly working for the other side? After three people I'd start thinking "Nobody's this bad a judge of character."
Soccy, I always thought that pretty weird, too. Especially, if you knew some of the people, and you knew they really were good for God. And then suddenly they're not.
If you listened to Craig, he said: he was meek to others when he first took over as Prez and some (specifically and especially Geer, the PotP paper and subsequent incidents) used it as a way of attacking him. He "lost his way" and we all wandered into the "fog years." He said it felt like he was sitting in a boat on the lake, could hear the people on the shore talking or calling, but couldn't find the way back to the shore. He got fat and (though he doesn't say it) sounds clinically depressed.
Finally he realized it was all coming from Geer and a "me or him" approach came about. He "drew a line in the sand" and many left. Then he carried on teaching as God inspired him. In this time, he says, a Corps woman, on staff I think he said but not in a "high" position, told him his teaching were now really great and he was moving forward. He lost weight and gained aggression.
This is his backing to carry on the way he progressed: confronting those who spoke against him, and understanding that others were backing him.
Now the PotP is a terrible thing in so many ways. Was there any real sense of where LCM was "wrong" or serious attempt to confront him? Geer was an arrogant psycho and personally I can hardly think badly enough about him.
Could others have supported LCM in the early stages so that it didn't all go to H in a handbasket? He probably was grieving and perhaps depressed at the death of his champion, his mentor, his Teacher, VPW. He idolized him too much to want to listen to anyone who didn't back him. LCM had burned his own "red flags" long ago and when he came out of the fog it was as a die-hard confrontationalist full of anger at his own weakness and specifically anger at his wife. who was, or was becoming, too close to Rosalie.
That anger has got to go somewhere. And those who "confronted" him got the brunt. "Off with his head!" - or at least, "Off with his reputation!"
And when he'd got rid of all the genuine ministers/prophets (if there were any), they were closely followed by all the WC and who would dare be so "unmeek" as to raise their head above the parapet?
TWI was bound to fail no matter who was at the presidential helm because it had no system of checks and balances.It did not work together as a 'body', nor did it honor that God could possibly work in anyone outside of the president. It had near all power vested in one man.
That setup was VP's doing. It was set up much more like a third world dictatorship than a body of christians with common goals.
LCM or Wierwille for that matter, could have been confronted, maybe even restored if had been set up properly but VP had enough of that in the church and set up his own regime to make himself darn near invulnerable and unquestionable--It was pretty much doomed from the gitgo when time tested working traditions of church governance were all trashed.
TWI was bound to fail no matter who was at the presidential helm because it had no system of checks and balances.It did not work together as a 'body', nor did it honor that God could possibly work in anyone outside of the president. It had near all power vested in one man.
That setup was VP's doing. It was set up much more like a third world dictatorship than a body of christians with common goals.
LCM or Wierwille for that matter, could have been confronted, maybe even restored if had been set up properly but VP had enough of that in the church and set up his own regime to make himself darn near invulnerable and unquestionable--It was pretty much doomed from the gitgo when time tested working traditions of church governance were all trashed.
Exactly.
Twi was on a trajectory of "crash and burn" since its incorporation status, 1957. When wierwille set in motion those trustee meetings with brother, Harry, and close friend, Ermal,....wierwille stacked the deck in his favor. No accountability. No church oversight.
Geer had very little to do with it. The signs of demise were in the air in 1978, 1979.....and wierwille was making his last gasps to stay on the throne. Heck, even going so far as to admit, "I wish I were the man I knew to be".......the ministry was established on a cracked foundation. It was only a matter of time.
Twi was on a trajectory of "crash and burn" since its incorporation status, 1957. When wierwille set in motion those trustee meetings with brother, Harry, and close friend, Ermal,....wierwille stacked the deck in his favor. No accountability. No church oversight.
None of us had a say in anything even though we were supporters and for all intents and purposes 'members'.
Never mind us lowly twiggites, there were no representaives, counsel of elders--nothing --to aid, define and protect the direction of 'the ministry'despite all the BS about the 'one body' where everyone is supposedly equal.
There was no method or avenue to confront, question or discipline the top dog.
As I said above IMO Wierwille had enough and walked away from the church so he could do his own thing with invulnerability.
Even If someone were perfect that setup couldnt last forever, it leaves way way too much room for any heinous thing to happen and by default negates any potential valuable contribution that could come from the rest of 'the body'
When the third person was outed and rumors were being spread, people should have started getting a clue.
Someone serves the ministry for a number of years and then they're suddenly working for the other side? After three people I'd start thinking "Nobody's this bad a judge of character."
SoCrates
Well, you're right, people should have started getting a clue but they didn't for the most part. Maybe we didn't want to have a clue and disturb our order of things. You gotta understand, the Man of God's words were above question. If Wierwille said Del Dunk@n was over the edge, you believed him. As big a name as Dunk@n was, Wierwille was much bigger. Who were you going to believe? Don't forget, the "green book" plainly said that the first step in the demise of the first century church was that they turned their backs on the Man of God. It was also completely unbelievable to me at the time that Wierwille or Martindale would engage in willful sin and most people, I think, thought like I did.
Having said that, I will say that when Woltar Cimmuns resigned, THAT got some attention. That's when I personally started going, "hmmm, something's not right".
LCM could not be counseled because he knew the Word better and could dispute people's points using The Word better than anyone today . . . he could put ideas together faster . . . that's why nobody could correct him . . . because nobody today knows The Word like LCM.
Anyone heard that one?
Maybe I shoulda posted it in the humor forum . . .
In the old way of abundance and power class coordinators guide there was a section that said (not verbatum but you will get the gist) "Reverend Martindale has proven that he has unsurpassed discipline and spiritual ability..."
When he was king there was no disputing him. He would not have it. He perfected VPW's my way or the hi-way leadership style and trained his minions to be twice the child of hell that he was.
Rosalie is the same. There is no disputing her. The difference in Rosalie and Craig is she feigns being nice and pretends to be available to handle people's concerns. I have known several people to take their case to her and the only one's that ended well (where the person stayed with TWI if you call that well) were the ones who nodded their heads in agreement with her.
Those who did not quickly found themselves relocated far away from HQ in the near future. I even know of one family where she managed to subtly villify them to the majority of the staff. This poor family was treated horribly by people as they prepared to move away from the New Knoxville area. IMO she made an example of them Fox style.
In the old way of abundance and power class coordinators guide there was a section that said (not verbatum but you will get the gist) "Reverend Martindale has proven that he has unsurpassed discipline and spiritual ability..."
Don't forget, the "green book" plainly said that the first step in the demise of the first century church was that they turned their backs on the Man of God.
Broken Arrow.....yes, that was a MAJOR POINT in squelching any whispers or suspicions.
Again, I believe that its one of those things wierwille surreptitiously implanted in pfal to head off such suspicions. Wierwille was 51 years old when pfal was filmed and, remember, he married in secret, talked his way into Leonard's class, and isolated himself in a hotel room to write plagairize the holy spirit work. Lots more too. One sneaky dude.
Broken Arrow.....yes, that was a MAJOR POINT in squelching any whispers or suspicions.
Okay, I can see the concern the first century church tanked because people turned against the man of God. But did anybody bother to think: so if this trolley goes off the tracks, how are we supposed to be able to tell someone?
Okay, I can see the concern the first century church tanked because people turned against the man of God. But did anybody bother to think: so if this trolley goes off the tracks, how are we supposed to be able to tell someone?
Which of course brings me to:
I don't run the trolley
I don't ring the bell
But let the d--n thing jump the tracks
And see who catches h--l
SoCrates
Some people did and they were ostracized. Speaking for myself, no. It never crossed my mind that TWI would ever "go off the tracks." It was the perfect ministry run by leaders who were above reproach. They were trained by the MOG himself. He hand-picked LCM as his successor and he had a direct connection with God, don't you know.
As big a name as Dunk@n was, Wierwille was much bigger.
That was another huge error in the setup, the top dog was a rock star celebrity not a servant or minister. Great for anyone who wanted to have their ego stroked..
Same here. My first fellowship coordinator used to go on about "can you imagine all the spiritual responsibility of being the man of God!?!?!?" BARF! And this was in reference to Martindale.
Same here. My first fellowship coordinator used to go on about "can you imagine all the spiritual responsibility of being the man of God!?!?!?" BARF! And this was in reference to Martindale.
What is completely so bizarre to me about this is that nobody talked about Jesus Christ like this. I mean, you know, they did their prescribed teachings on Resurrection Sunday, and in teaching some of the JCOP and JCPS stuff. But in real life, everyone was so into the MOG worship. This in TWI is basically policy. Why do you need pictures up in the Limb offices of the BOD as mandated policy? Why do you need a wallet sized photo of RFR? Why do you need to put the BOD at the top of every "lift list" in the ministry.
In a genuine Christian setting, the focus goes not onto the egotistical guy at the top of the org chain, but transfers that focus to the Savior of mankind. Genuine Christianity is not a "top-down" organization. It is a "bottom up" organization, where the greatest leader is the greatest servant. That is simply not possible in TWI.
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mstar1
TWI was bound to fail no matter who was at the presidential helm because it had no system of checks and balances.It did not work together as a 'body', nor did it honor that God could possibly work in
waysider
You should have sent him a bill for career counseling. Your advise was spot on.
excathedra
very sad to be afraid of insane people because you love god
So_crates
I don't buy this and I'll tell you why. A little bit of twi doctrine called gift ministries. You mean, in all of twi, there wasn't one prophet willing to stand up to Saint Vic or the Craigmeister?
Even if Craigmeister knew the word better and could put together ideas fast, prophets speak for God, as the doctrine goes, and they find away to make the person listen. Look at King David, that prophet got him to listen.
That's one of the things that have stuck in my craw since hearing about Saint Vic and Craigmeisters little indescretions. Where were the prophets to get them back on track?
SoCrates
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Broken Arrow
They were fired, discredited, and sometimes were even attacked by VP's dogs. Check out Dubofsky on Greasespot radio. Of course, that's after VP, but he talks about some other things.
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So_crates
Understood. But look at Jeremiah, he kept warning Isreal for how long?
Again, if God's hands were in the ministry the whole indescresion thing would not have gone as far as it did.
SoCrates
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Broken Arrow
Right, but these guys were out and TWI would quickly spread rumors about them. That way, they had no public platform to say anything, and the people they talked to would not believe them because they had been discredited. That actually happened to a number of people.
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So_crates
Is this a godly thing to do?
When the third person was outed and rumors were being spread, people should have started getting a clue.
Someone serves the ministry for a number of years and then they're suddenly working for the other side? After three people I'd start thinking "Nobody's this bad a judge of character."
SoCrates
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Twinky
Soccy, I always thought that pretty weird, too. Especially, if you knew some of the people, and you knew they really were good for God. And then suddenly they're not.
If you listened to Craig, he said: he was meek to others when he first took over as Prez and some (specifically and especially Geer, the PotP paper and subsequent incidents) used it as a way of attacking him. He "lost his way" and we all wandered into the "fog years." He said it felt like he was sitting in a boat on the lake, could hear the people on the shore talking or calling, but couldn't find the way back to the shore. He got fat and (though he doesn't say it) sounds clinically depressed.
Finally he realized it was all coming from Geer and a "me or him" approach came about. He "drew a line in the sand" and many left. Then he carried on teaching as God inspired him. In this time, he says, a Corps woman, on staff I think he said but not in a "high" position, told him his teaching were now really great and he was moving forward. He lost weight and gained aggression.
This is his backing to carry on the way he progressed: confronting those who spoke against him, and understanding that others were backing him.
Now the PotP is a terrible thing in so many ways. Was there any real sense of where LCM was "wrong" or serious attempt to confront him? Geer was an arrogant psycho and personally I can hardly think badly enough about him.
Could others have supported LCM in the early stages so that it didn't all go to H in a handbasket? He probably was grieving and perhaps depressed at the death of his champion, his mentor, his Teacher, VPW. He idolized him too much to want to listen to anyone who didn't back him. LCM had burned his own "red flags" long ago and when he came out of the fog it was as a die-hard confrontationalist full of anger at his own weakness and specifically anger at his wife. who was, or was becoming, too close to Rosalie.
That anger has got to go somewhere. And those who "confronted" him got the brunt. "Off with his head!" - or at least, "Off with his reputation!"
And when he'd got rid of all the genuine ministers/prophets (if there were any), they were closely followed by all the WC and who would dare be so "unmeek" as to raise their head above the parapet?
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mstar1
TWI was bound to fail no matter who was at the presidential helm because it had no system of checks and balances.It did not work together as a 'body', nor did it honor that God could possibly work in anyone outside of the president. It had near all power vested in one man.
That setup was VP's doing. It was set up much more like a third world dictatorship than a body of christians with common goals.
LCM or Wierwille for that matter, could have been confronted, maybe even restored if had been set up properly but VP had enough of that in the church and set up his own regime to make himself darn near invulnerable and unquestionable--It was pretty much doomed from the gitgo when time tested working traditions of church governance were all trashed.
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skyrider
Exactly.
Twi was on a trajectory of "crash and burn" since its incorporation status, 1957. When wierwille set in motion those trustee meetings with brother, Harry, and close friend, Ermal,....wierwille stacked the deck in his favor. No accountability. No church oversight.
Geer had very little to do with it. The signs of demise were in the air in 1978, 1979.....and wierwille was making his last gasps to stay on the throne. Heck, even going so far as to admit, "I wish I were the man I knew to be".......the ministry was established on a cracked foundation. It was only a matter of time.
When wierwille died.....it was over.
Geer was simply ANOTHER opportunist.
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mstar1
None of us had a say in anything even though we were supporters and for all intents and purposes 'members'.
Never mind us lowly twiggites, there were no representaives, counsel of elders--nothing --to aid, define and protect the direction of 'the ministry'despite all the BS about the 'one body' where everyone is supposedly equal.
There was no method or avenue to confront, question or discipline the top dog.
As I said above IMO Wierwille had enough and walked away from the church so he could do his own thing with invulnerability.
Even If someone were perfect that setup couldnt last forever, it leaves way way too much room for any heinous thing to happen and by default negates any potential valuable contribution that could come from the rest of 'the body'
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skyrider
From wierwille's 'mog status'.......corps and clergy were "lowly" as well.
From a christian perspective........every member is unique and needful.
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Broken Arrow
Well, you're right, people should have started getting a clue but they didn't for the most part. Maybe we didn't want to have a clue and disturb our order of things. You gotta understand, the Man of God's words were above question. If Wierwille said Del Dunk@n was over the edge, you believed him. As big a name as Dunk@n was, Wierwille was much bigger. Who were you going to believe? Don't forget, the "green book" plainly said that the first step in the demise of the first century church was that they turned their backs on the Man of God. It was also completely unbelievable to me at the time that Wierwille or Martindale would engage in willful sin and most people, I think, thought like I did.
Having said that, I will say that when Woltar Cimmuns resigned, THAT got some attention. That's when I personally started going, "hmmm, something's not right".
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OldSkool
In the old way of abundance and power class coordinators guide there was a section that said (not verbatum but you will get the gist) "Reverend Martindale has proven that he has unsurpassed discipline and spiritual ability..."
I $h!t u not.
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OldSkool
When he was king there was no disputing him. He would not have it. He perfected VPW's my way or the hi-way leadership style and trained his minions to be twice the child of hell that he was.
Rosalie is the same. There is no disputing her. The difference in Rosalie and Craig is she feigns being nice and pretends to be available to handle people's concerns. I have known several people to take their case to her and the only one's that ended well (where the person stayed with TWI if you call that well) were the ones who nodded their heads in agreement with her.
Those who did not quickly found themselves relocated far away from HQ in the near future. I even know of one family where she managed to subtly villify them to the majority of the staff. This poor family was treated horribly by people as they prepared to move away from the New Knoxville area. IMO she made an example of them Fox style.
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Ham
maybe he "mastered" the use of a bull whip..
in private venues, of course.
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Broken Arrow
Well, he certainly "mastered" some kind of bull.
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skyrider
Broken Arrow.....yes, that was a MAJOR POINT in squelching any whispers or suspicions.
Again, I believe that its one of those things wierwille surreptitiously implanted in pfal to head off such suspicions. Wierwille was 51 years old when pfal was filmed and, remember, he married in secret, talked his way into Leonard's class, and isolated himself in a hotel room to write plagairize the holy spirit work. Lots more too. One sneaky dude.
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So_crates
Okay, I can see the concern the first century church tanked because people turned against the man of God. But did anybody bother to think: so if this trolley goes off the tracks, how are we supposed to be able to tell someone?
Which of course brings me to:
I don't run the trolley
I don't ring the bell
But let the d--n thing jump the tracks
And see who catches h--l
SoCrates
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excathedra
i told him in person and in a letter (after he took over) that he should not go the way wierwille went
he was way too defensive (and got very mean the second time)
and then i see he went crazy
it's a shame to say the least
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Broken Arrow
Some people did and they were ostracized. Speaking for myself, no. It never crossed my mind that TWI would ever "go off the tracks." It was the perfect ministry run by leaders who were above reproach. They were trained by the MOG himself. He hand-picked LCM as his successor and he had a direct connection with God, don't you know.
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mstar1
That was another huge error in the setup, the top dog was a rock star celebrity not a servant or minister. Great for anyone who wanted to have their ego stroked..
All this crap about The "MOG" makes me sick now
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OldSkool
Same here. My first fellowship coordinator used to go on about "can you imagine all the spiritual responsibility of being the man of God!?!?!?" BARF! And this was in reference to Martindale.
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skyrider
There were lots of things in twi that I swallowed hook, line and sinker....
....but the mog-doctrine was NOT one of them.
Yeah, I felt intimidated and all.....but refused to peddle the mog-idolatry.
Same thing today.....all those offshoot 'leaders'
Same stuff / Different Day
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chockfull
What is completely so bizarre to me about this is that nobody talked about Jesus Christ like this. I mean, you know, they did their prescribed teachings on Resurrection Sunday, and in teaching some of the JCOP and JCPS stuff. But in real life, everyone was so into the MOG worship. This in TWI is basically policy. Why do you need pictures up in the Limb offices of the BOD as mandated policy? Why do you need a wallet sized photo of RFR? Why do you need to put the BOD at the top of every "lift list" in the ministry.
In a genuine Christian setting, the focus goes not onto the egotistical guy at the top of the org chain, but transfers that focus to the Savior of mankind. Genuine Christianity is not a "top-down" organization. It is a "bottom up" organization, where the greatest leader is the greatest servant. That is simply not possible in TWI.
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excathedra
good points i read a little for once lol
what is this about MEN OF GOD holy fathers reverends and the like
ohhhhh ahhhhh you're a pastor, you're a prophet, you're a sunofabeech
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