Was da victoid "born again"?

[Ham]

so "satan" stands up and says, "he was no good, filthy, one who caused scandal and division among those who believe, a rapist, a false prophet and an immoral arrogant scumbag. "

And the Eternal court says.. "is that all you've got? case closed."

Really?

[waysider]

I'm not sure anymore exactly what "born again" really means. Maybe it's some kind of figurative expression. I don't know. One thing I do know; his life surely didn't represent an ability to start afresh. He just continued on in his same old devious and perverted ways until the Drambuie ran out. So, in that sense, he was never "born again".

Edited March 30, 2011 by waysider

[Ham]

I mean in the "traditional" way lingo.

saved from judgment basically. In the eternal sense. Being SO righteous that it is impossible to sin it out..

no matter what one does..

but the mind is not effected. Or so that is the claim..

so one can be a no good snake in the grass, on one hand, and not one, on the other..

a good friend from my youth was relating some of this "doctrine" to his father. The father steps back a minute, rubs his chin.. and says "it sounds to me like you are using the bible to go to hell.."

true story.

[waysider]

I mean in the "traditional" way lingo.

saved from judgment basically. In the eternal sense. Being SO righteous that it is impossible to sin it out..

no matter what one does..

but the mind is not effected. Or so that is the claim..

so one can be a no good snake in the grass, on one hand, and not one, on the other..

If that's what it's really about, I'm not so sure I want any part of it.

Of course, that would also change my "not sure" into a "yes" in reference to VPW.

[Ham]

Maybe I should re-phrase that..

in traditional(?) way theology. He is excluded from real *serious* judgement. Other than relinquishing a *few* rewards.

heaven bound. "all hell" can't stop him from going. Even himself.

assured a *place* on God's right hand.

lo shanta..

[waysider]

Maybe I should re-phrase that..

in traditional(?) way theology. He is excluded from real *serious* judgement. Other than relinquishing a *few* rewards.

heaven bound. "all hell" can't stop him from going. Even himself.

assured a *place* on God's right hand.

lo shanta..

Well, he did have that Lo Shanta thing going on. And, he said ,himself, that the Lo Shanta thing was proof. Of course, that's one of those circular reasoning kind of things.

....ma laka see tay.....

[waysider]

But, then again, he seemed to be stuck on those same two or three phrases, didn't he? Can you be just a little bit born again? You know. Like being just a little bit pregnant?

[So_crates]

The Lo Shanta thing could have been faked.

As for the spiritual aspect, there was a lot more going on there that was half a bubble off plumb then meets the eye.

What's the odds someone would just fall into an organization that would give him unlimited power, just happen to find the right books to plagarize, and just come upon the right people to carry out his nefarious motives and cover up his adultrous ways?

SoCrates

[So_crates]

To further re-enforce the Lo Shanta schtick being faked:

Remember in PLAF, Saint Vic talks of snake handlers: how they SIT while handling snakes. "The speaking in tongues is real," he said, "but the handling of snakes is devilish."

This is something I can't logically reason in my mind. You can operate the holy spirit while doing a devilish act? I thought the two were incompatible. What happens to light appears and darkness flees. Also, how are you giving up you body to God (for the SIT (you do the talking, God gives you the words)), yet your in a trance to handle the snakes (giving your body to Satan).

SoCrates

[waysider]

Hey!! This doesn't look like Adolph's Tavern!!!

[Ham]

[waysider]

To further re-enforce the Lo Shanta schtick being faked:

Remember in PLAF, Saint Vic talks of snake handlers: how they SIT while handling snakes. "The speaking in tongues is real," he said, "but the handling of snakes is devilish."

This is something I can't logically reason in my mind. You can operate the holy spirit while doing a devilish act? I thought the two were incompatible. What happens to light appears and darkness flees. Also, how are you giving up you body to God (for the SIT (you do the talking, God gives you the words)), yet your in a trance to handle the snakes (giving your body to Satan).

SoCrates

Well, I'll be.

Just when you think you've seen every contradiction in PFAL.

In one place he says that a born-again believer can't get possessed. But here the implication is that they can.

--------------------------------------------------------

"The speaking in tongues is real," he said,

(indicating they were born-again because, supposedly, that's the only way it could be "real")

"but the handling of snakes is devilish."

(indicating they were possessed by devil spirits---according to page 14 of the advanced class syllabus, which talks about snake charmers being possessed)

[Ham]

As for the spiritual aspect, there was a lot more going on there that was half a bubble off plumb then meets the eye.

What's the odds someone would just fall into an organization that would give him unlimited power, just happen to find the right books to plagarize, and just come upon the right people to carry out his nefarious motives and cover up his adultrous ways?

odds are pretty astronomical, aren't they..

[Broken Arrow]

Maybe I should re-phrase that..

in traditional(?) way theology. He is excluded from real *serious* judgement. Other than relinquishing a *few* rewards.

heaven bound. "all hell" can't stop him from going. Even himself.

assured a *place* on God's right hand.

lo shanta..

I don't think I believe that stuff VP taught about judgement. I think he was hoping there would be no judgement for him. The Bible clearly says, even in the epistles, that we are all going to have to give an account to God. I don't know what that fully means, but I don't think people that hurt people are going to get off scott free.

By the way, does anyone know the difference between "Scot free", and just "free"? Do you think there's "Irish free", "English free", "French free, etc.? Maybe there's a "Jim free, and "Jack free"? These are the types of things that make me lie awake all night.

Edited March 30, 2011 by Broken Arrow

[So_crates]

Hey!! This doesn't look like Adolph's Tavern!!!

What no Dramuie? Only Coors? Noooooooooooooo!!!

SoCrates

[Ham]

why is it.. that this seems to be some kind of cosmic debriefing..

I mean, we've fought the fight, observed da vicster. the loyster.. da.. I can't think of a rhyming name for the new pres. Now we compare notes..

[So_crates]

Well, I'll be.

Just when you think you've seen every contradiction in PFAL.

In one place he says that a born-again believer can't get possessed. But here the implication is that they can.

I'm sure if we worked at it, Waysider, we'd eventually come to the conclusion that PLAF is one long contradiction. How could it not be? Its a patchwork quilt of how many different sources.

The only thing that made it work was Saint Vic. Why else do you think they didn't want you asking too many questions? Because you'd eventually see the man behind the curtain controlling the Great and Powerful Oz.

SoCrates

Edited March 30, 2011 by So_crates

[Ham]

so.. if the miserable bastard wasn't god on a stick.. what was he? What kind of entity are we dealing with here?

*ham passes out lead lined gloves to the other examiners*..

[Broken Arrow]

why is it.. that this seems to be some kind of cosmic debriefing..

I mean, we've fought the fight, observed da vicster. the loyster.. da.. I can't think of a rhyming name for the new pres. Now we compare notes..

"Rosey-roo?"

[Ham]

born again? eternal life? come thou cherished child, into thy eternal reward?

You've got to be kidding me..

"Rosey-roo?"

It doesn't exactly rhyme. But who says it has to..

[So_crates]

It doesn't exactly rhyme. But who says it has to..

Rosie Rip-N-Bark?

SoCrates

[Ham]

maybe "rosie the eternally nipping (and barking)"..

no, her royal sycophantess doesn't seem to sport a similar name..

vicster. Loyster.

husband of Donster?

Or is it wife?

[So_crates]

no, her royal sycophantess doesn't seem to sport a similar name..

vicster. Loyster.

Barkster?

SoCrates

[Ham]

but to bring it back to topic. Posters here, don't have to worry about topic. On my threads, anyway.. we usually end up in some wonderful place..

just what was the topic..

the vicster. Born again? In way terms.. a free pass to paradise, or the gathering together.. or the third heaven and third earth.. or a free pass beyond the judgment at the lake of fire.. or whatever it i supposed to be.. I don't think so.

You'd have to modify too many of the words of Jesus to include him.

"come, thou slothful sycophant, existing on the back of others labors.."

Barkster?

SoCrates

that's it! You found it..

[T-Bone]

i voted "not sure" ....which i'll explain in a minute....but first - i got a kick out of these posts:

I mean in the "traditional" way lingo.

saved from judgment basically. In the eternal sense. Being SO righteous that it is impossible to sin it out..

no matter what one does..

but the mind is not effected. Or so that is the claim..

so one can be a no good snake in the grass, on one hand, and not one, on the other..

a good friend from my youth was relating some of this "doctrine" to his father. The father steps back a minute, rubs his chin.. and says "it sounds to me like you are using the bible to go to hell.."

true story.

that's a great story - funny and yet quite a sobering thought too

Maybe I should re-phrase that..

in traditional(?) way theology. He is excluded from real *serious* judgement. Other than relinquishing a *few* rewards.

heaven bound. "all hell" can't stop him from going. Even himself.

assured a *place* on God's right hand.

lo shanta..

hmmmm....don't think i buy into vp's idea of born again anymore

To further re-enforce the Lo Shanta schtick being faked:

Remember in PLAF, Saint Vic talks of snake handlers: how they SIT while handling snakes. "The speaking in tongues is real," he said, "but the handling of snakes is devilish."

This is something I can't logically reason in my mind. You can operate the holy spirit while doing a devilish act? I thought the two were incompatible. What happens to light appears and darkness flees. Also, how are you giving up you body to God (for the SIT (you do the talking, God gives you the words)), yet your in a trance to handle the snakes (giving your body to Satan).

SoCrates

SoCrates, a sharp post there for sure....thanks......makes me wonder if it was the other way around with vp - the tongues being counterfeit but the handling of snakes was the real thing. Maybe that's where he got his snake oil.

~~

now the reason i voted "not sure" has more to do with my personal belief system. Often there's times that i'm not even sure if i'm born again.....and i sometimes feel that maybe a shadow of doubt about our future state may be there for a purpose - maybe as a reason to avoid temptation and as a deterrent to acts of evil...

...i just don't think it's spiritually healthy to be so overconfident in one's salvation as exemplified in vp's life and teachings. all it looks like to me is that it gave him a license to do whatever the he11 he wanted to......it's a good fit though, if you happen to be a sociopath.