vpw, truths, lies, reasons/motives.

[Twinky]

3 minutes ago, chockfull said:

... the 3 some in the spare Founders room is OK?  

I don't like to ask.  Don't like to imagine.  Tell me this is imagination, and didn't happen.

[Bolshevik]

13 minutes ago, chockfull said:

Yeah Jesus is probably gonna make that b sit in a corner and write him a letter at the return.

Sorry that happened to you B.  With that and all the interference into your marriage.  

My ex and I were getting close to the Bid0ns.  We each worked by and and spent personal time with them.

Used to go hunting with Mr. Bid0n.  When I saw the names on the lawsuit I left my gear in the woods and never retrieved it.

Little bummed about that still.

[Twinky]

6 hours ago, OldSkool said:

Not only that part but that J@qui and Martindale had a long standing thing going was also common knowledge.

Right, so J and LCM had a long-standing thing.

WHY would Ed put up with that?  Repeatedly - over a long period, by the sound of it.  Why would any husband put up with that?  Why??

Yet I know that G@ry B@rnes knew his wife J@nuary was seeing LCM.  He'd watch her get ready: she told me this, years later.  She told me he felt powerless to stop her.   And she had changed, to feel that he was contemptible and weak.  How can that wicked man LCM make a man feel so?  How can an organisation make men and women feel so?

(I think I'll just go upstairs and scream quietly into my pillow.  So angry!)

 

Thank God P@ul Allen wasn't powerless to stop what was happening to his wife, despite both inducements and threats.

[Bolshevik]

3 minutes ago, Twinky said:

. . .

WHY would Ed put up with that?  Repeatedly - over a long period, by the sound of it.  Why would any husband put up with that?  Why??

. . .

This is growing trend . . . hotwives and cuckolds.

Part of it is the cost of divorce and loss of the kids . . . "cheaper to keep her" . . . so they put up with it.

Worse is this idea is that a man doesn't really love and support his wife he doesn't let her fulfill her needs as a woman.  How does what she does hurt HIM?

A cultural inversion where a man is considered non-toxic if he takes on the behaviors of a women.  

This and other trends teach that associating sex with emotion is wrong.  This disconnection from one's emotions sounds familiar, doesn't it?

[T-Bone]

42 minutes ago, Twinky said:

I never knew any of it either.  Don't look for it, couldn't possibly expect it in a Christian place of work and study, just - naive and innocent.  Thank God for his protection over me at that time.

It makes me feel ill to think of it now.  Jacque... my corps coordinator.  A groomer.  Ugh.

Give yourself some credit too, Twinky…I know you – I’ve met you at the Texas BBQ and think a lot of your strength of character and enjoy hearing about the adventures of your street ministry – you represent all the good, honest, decent people I met while in TWI. What I was thinking when I said  ‘ there’s a whole other type of awareness if one is into that stuff’  in a more general sense is that the corps program had – besides the decent folks – there were also opportunists, adulterers, sexual predators, crooks in the mix too – and they each are probably more alert to ‘ideal opportunities’ depending on their forte…a hunter knows where to find game.

 

[OldSkool]

36 minutes ago, Twinky said:

Thank God P@ul Allen wasn't powerless to stop what was happening to his wife, despite both inducements and threats

It took courage for Paul to confront craiggers....Craig had waygb show up armed no less and he Paul still wouldn't back down.

[Bolshevik]

Did Mrs Allen have any agency or did things just happen to her?

Paul lack suspicion prior to boinking?

The narrative makes no sense to me still.

[Bolshevik]

How old were the All@ns?

[chockfull]

40 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

Give yourself some credit too, Twinky…I know you – I’ve met you at the Texas BBQ and think a lot of your strength of character and enjoy hearing about the adventures of your street ministry – you represent all the good, honest, decent people I met while in TWI. What I was thinking when I said  ‘ there’s a whole other type of awareness if one is into that stuff’  in a more general sense is that the corps program had – besides the decent folks – there were also opportunists, adulterers, sexual predators, crooks in the mix too – and they each are probably more alert to ‘ideal opportunities’ depending on their forte…a hunter knows where to find game.

Yeah it seems there was a whole inner Nexim like cult within the cult that was involved with those kind of things.

Since that is really bad and hurtful and cost lawsuit money instead of the 

VPW Nexim Cult

we have the

VPW Whitewashed Cult

the second one comes with your own VP bronze WITH COLLATERALS.

[Rocky]

THIS/THESE scenarios are examples of how and why I connected the sexual indiscretion in TWI to the deviance in the Children of God as parallel and only different as a matter of degrees.

Two keys in each: 1) authoritarian top-down power structure; and 2) deviant fantasies/imagination/ideation used by the cult founder to self-justify and rationalize practices counter to acceptable culture of the times.

[OldSkool]

2 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

Did Mrs Allen have any agency or did things just happen to her?

Paul lack suspicion prior to boinking?

The narrative makes no sense to me still.

Martindale said he had a one time, mutually consensual affair with Mrs. @llen. Obviously, he was lying about the extent of his sexual misconduct. Whether or not he had more than one encounter with Mrs. @llen I dont know, but it was the lawsuit that cracked the entire egg wide open with RICO charge and naming 40 or so individuals who worked in one capacity or another to make it happen for craiggers.

Im not saying Mrs. @llen didn't share culpability in the affair, if it was indeed mutually consensual. Church leadership has a greater burden to carry in situations such as this because they should be trustworthy enough to not get caught in lustfull practices such as adultery, and when a pastor preys on the unsuspecting flock that pastor is now a sexual predator, serial adulterer. Now perhaps if I was in the congregation and had a one off affair with someone else's wife then it would be ok to say that we both shoulder the same burden of responsibility in the wrongs. But when its clergy thats a different story. Especially in this case because it was her clergy and employer. Martindale/wierwille used their positions to procure unsuspecting women for their own lusts. 

Just a couple of links that are nothing special but give some perspective on the subject matter outside of TWI:

https://www.christianitytoday.com/women-leaders/2008/september/when-pastor-becomes-predator.html

https://joemckeever.com/wp/7-sexual-lines-pastor-cross/

https://sbcvoices.com/the-pastor-and-inappropriate-interactions-with-women-in-the-church/

[Rocky]

3 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

Im not saying Mrs. @llen didn't share culpability in the affair, if it was indeed mutually consensual. Church leadership has a greater burden to carry in situations such as this because they should be trustworthy enough to not get caught in lustful practices such as adultery, and when a pastor preys on the unsuspecting flock that pastor is now a sexual predator, serial adulterer. Now perhaps if I was in the congregation and had a one off affair with someone else's wife then it would be ok to say that we both shoulder the same burden of responsibility in the wrongs. But when its clergy that's a different story. Especially in this case because it was her clergy and employer. Martindale/wierwille used their positions to procure unsuspecting women for their own lusts. 

It's all about the power dynamic. It CAN be (reasonably) argued the person in the role of "prey" has a responsibility or at least a right to survive.

Loy, and his mentor, Vic, were predators.

[OldSkool]

2 minutes ago, Rocky said:

It's all about the power dynamic. It CAN be (reasonably) argued the person in the role of "prey" has a responsibility or at least a right to survive.

Loy, and his mentor, Vic, were predators.

Yes, thank you!!

[Bolshevik]

6 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

Martindale said he had a one time, mutually consensual affair with Mrs. @llen. Obviously, he was lying about the extent of his sexual misconduct. Whether or not he had more than one encounter with Mrs. @llen I dont know, but it was the lawsuit that cracked the entire egg wide open with RICO charge and naming 40 or so individuals who worked in one capacity or another to make it happen for craiggers.

Im not saying Mrs. @llen didn't share culpability in the affair, if it was indeed mutually consensual. Church leadership has a greater burden to carry in situations such as this because they should be trustworthy enough to not get caught in lustfull practices such as adultery, and when a pastor preys on the unsuspecting flock that pastor is now a sexual predator, serial adulterer. Now perhaps if I was in the congregation and had a one off affair with someone else's wife then it would be ok to say that we both shoulder the same burden of responsibility in the wrongs. But when its clergy thats a different story. Especially in this case because it was her clergy and employer. Martindale/wierwille used their positions to procure unsuspecting women for their own lusts. 

Just a couple of links that are nothing special but give some perspective on the subject matter outside of TWI:

https://www.christianitytoday.com/women-leaders/2008/september/when-pastor-becomes-predator.html

https://joemckeever.com/wp/7-sexual-lines-pastor-cross/

https://sbcvoices.com/the-pastor-and-inappropriate-interactions-with-women-in-the-church/

Legally, you may be able to call LCM "church leadership" at the time.  TWI saw itself above the government.

I've heard of congregations where the pastor sleeps with all the wives . . . and the congregation kicks him out because it has that power.  The congregation remains and a new pastor is brought in.  This happened in the same area of Ohio as The Way, but a denomination, I think, I've met many of the children of that guy, he had a lot, so did his wife.

The Way is not that type of congregation . . . it's the kind where it's best where everyone disperses.  Everyone involved in TWI has made a bad decision or a series of many bad decisions.

The "lustful practices of adultery" were not against TWI doctrine.  It was part of TWI doctrine.  

With my ex-wife I remain convinced she was being groomed . . . as was I.  This was after the lawsuit.  I couldn't convince the followers on the field of my concerns . . . because there was no value system to support boundaries. 

 

 

[Bolshevik]

13 minutes ago, Rocky said:

It's all about the power dynamic. It CAN be (reasonably) argued the person in the role of "prey" has a responsibility or at least a right to survive.

Loy, and his mentor, Vic, were predators.

 

If you flop on you back and kick with your foot upwards just as the wooden spoon is coming down, you can sometimes break it.  Then you have time while they search for something else.

[OldSkool]

12 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

The Way is not that type of congregation . .

And Ill bet you a dollar to a dime that wierwille, being the sexual predator he was known to be, set it up that way on purpose. He came out of a pastorate so none of this sort of thing would be a foreign concept to him. Men and women have always been attracted to one another so adultery in a congregation may not have been common place back then but Im sure there were safegaurds in place to oust leadership if need be.

[Bolshevik]

1 minute ago, OldSkool said:

And Ill bet you a dollar to a dime that wierwille, being the sexual predator he was known to be, set it up that way on purpose. He came out of a pastorate so none of this sort of thing would be a foreign concept to him. Men and women have always been attracted to one another so adultery in a congregation may not have been common place back then but Im sure there were safegaurds in place to oust leadership if need be.

That's fine.  The other guy I mentioned was VPW's cotemporary and went through church after church.

But VPW died a bazillion years ago.  And men and women like him are a dime a dozen.

I'm not saying VPW wasn't a predator.  Yes predators are good at detecting weakness.  Yes VPW set up a system that benefited his in all areas he desired.  Not arguing that.

But he is dead.  LCM is gone.  The followers continue onward, because many of them feel they are benefiting.

 

[Nathan_Jr]

1 hour ago, Bolshevik said:

 

If you flop on you back and kick with your foot upwards just as the wooden spoon is coming down, you can sometimes break it.  Then you have time while they search for something else.

I'm so sick of this.

My ex-wife used the wooden spoon to discipline our son when he was very little - under five. I only remember her using it two or three times, but she carried one in her purse and one in her car as preemptive threats. (I think I've suppressed a lot of these memories.) I know she was taught this by the FC and his wife. They had that book. What was it? How to Train Up a Child Like a Dog?

I know we argued about this abusive tactic. Once, she's handed me the spoon and instructed me to use it on my precious son. I put it down and refused. My refusal was revealed to her Way family. It cost me lots of "teachings."

Fvck these people and the trash man who taught them.

 

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Nathan_Jr
Gloves

[OldSkool]

13 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

But he is dead.  LCM is gone.  The followers continue onward, because many of them feel they are benefiting.

If TWI hadnt done a coverup and whitewash I dont think I would be here. Had they admitted their errors and handled them honestly and openly I would respect that and would let it all die. Instead they have likely spent millions between their lawyers fees, the @llen's settlement, etc.

In fact, I had already moved on with Craig after that phone hookup where he admitted he had an affair with Mrs. @llen. I found out differently once I arrived at HQ and Gunnison. Craig got fired shortly after I arrived at HQ but then I came across the coverup and realized that the problems in TWI are systemic and doctrinal as well. The entire organization is a trap.

Edited January 9, 2023 by OldSkool

[Bolshevik]

29 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

I'm so sick of this.

My wife used the wooden spoon to discipline our son when he was very little - under five. I only remember her using it two or three times, but she carried one in her purse and one in her car as preemptive threats. (I think I've suppressed a lot of these memories.) I know she was taught this by the FC and his wife. They had that book. What was it? How to Train Up a Child Like a Dog?

I know we argued about this abusive tactic. Once, she's handed me the spoon and instructed me to use it on my precious son. I put it down and refused. My refusal was revealed to her Way family. It cost me lots of "teachings."

Fvck these people and the trash man who taught them.

 

 

It is a robotic act.  There's nothing behind the eyes.  Kids are a distraction to their cult addiction is all.  Kids do not conform and threaten their OCD narrative.  Kids challenge their lack of self-awareness.

I hope you and your son are close.  It doesn't end with the spoon.  Instead of a conversation, they with claim verses, claim The Word, to coerce a predetermined path for him, if possible.

[chockfull]

3 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

I hope you and your son are close.  It doesn't end with the spoon.  Instead of a conversation, they with claim verses, claim The Word, to coerce a predetermined path for him, if possible.

We didn’t use one on our son much at all despite the ministry teaching.  He’s a good kid.

We don’t beat our dogs either.

Amazingly we are all very close.  Kids and dogs.  Outside the Way.

[chockfull]

8 hours ago, Twinky said:

I don't like to ask.  Don't like to imagine.  Tell me this is imagination, and didn't happen.

By simple logic if one chick is a “procuress” in legal terms that’s what it means practically.

I mean they weren’t madams running an escort service with a financial trail. 

Yes I have heard stories about details of that BS. Leaked from inner places.  Disclosed from deposition pressure to Way lawyers and from subsequent interviews with everyone involved.  

Yes the hypocrisy of these idiots approached insane levels.

[WordWolf]

8 hours ago, Twinky said:

Right, so J and LCM had a long-standing thing.

WHY would Ed put up with that?  Repeatedly - over a long period, by the sound of it.  Why would any husband put up with that?  Why??

Yet I know that G@ry B@rnes knew his wife J@nuary was seeing LCM.  He'd watch her get ready: she told me this, years later.  She told me he felt powerless to stop her.   And she had changed, to feel that he was contemptible and weak.  How can that wicked man LCM make a man feel so?  How can an organisation make men and women feel so?

(I think I'll just go upstairs and scream quietly into my pillow.  So angry!)

 

Thank God P@ul Allen wasn't powerless to stop what was happening to his wife, despite both inducements and threats.

When R@m0n@ was married to T0M M1tch311, that came up also.  That is, lcm was boinking R@m0n@. T0M got into an argument with her about it.  Someone overheard him shout that he couldn't compete with lcm.  He set up to leave the grounds immediately, and begged her to come along. When lcm got wind of this, he sent someone R2m0n@ respected to talk her into staying.  When she chose to stay, T0m  responded by blowing his own brains out on campus with a gun.

Naturally, they put it all on T0m, and told R@m0n@ that if she had chosen to go with him, T0m would have shot her and himself.    So, yeah, lcm was partly responsible for T0M's death.  Not that I think he was a great guy, but he didn't deserve what he got.

[WordWolf]

4 hours ago, OldSkool said:

And Ill bet you a dollar to a dime that wierwille, being the sexual predator he was known to be, set it up that way on purpose. He came out of a pastorate so none of this sort of thing would be a foreign concept to him. Men and women have always been attracted to one another so adultery in a congregation may not have been common place back then but Im sure there were safegaurds in place to oust leadership if need be.

vpw set it up that way on purpose because he'd already gotten caught boinking the church secretary and was ousted as a result.  So, the next time, he specifically set up a group where he couldn't get ousted for boinking anyone.

[WordWolf]

4 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

I'm so sick of this.

My ex-wife used the wooden spoon to discipline our son when he was very little - under five. I only remember her using it two or three times, but she carried one in her purse and one in her car as preemptive threats. (I think I've suppressed a lot of these memories.) I know she was taught this by the FC and his wife. They had that book. What was it? How to Train Up a Child Like a Dog?

I know we argued about this abusive tactic. Once, she's handed me the spoon and instructed me to use it on my precious son. I put it down and refused. My refusal was revealed to her Way family. It cost me lots of "teachings."

Fvck these people and the trash man who taught them.

 

 

The book was "HUNT CLOSE."  I've heard it says to reward a dog who does the right thing, and punish him heavily for every wrong thing.    it's been disavowed by RESPECTED dog trainers because that results in a dog that behaves AS LONG AS THE TRAINER IS WATCHING.  

The idea of using that to raise a kid when it's inappropriate to even use on a DOG is disquieting, to say the least.