25 members have voted
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1. When vpw lied (if vpw lied), why was what he said not true?
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vpw never or almost never lied. He was an exemplary Christian.0
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vpw rarely lied, and those lies were simple, honest mistakes, like misremembering a name or verse reference.0
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When vpw lied, he chose to lie-he knew the truth and chose to speak differently than the truth.17
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vpw had a pathology or sickness, and could not stop himself from lying-he had no choice.0
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vpw didn't understand the difference between truth and lies, so he lied in ignorance, thinking it was fine.6
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Nothing vpw ever said was true, because vpw sinned in his flesh.0
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Who is this vpw?0
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I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition!2
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skyrider
Thanks again.....DWBH Love it when you post!
Twinky
That's the important thing about looking back. What happened? Why? How can (I) prevent this happening (to me) again? We will always come up against "red flags." Some we have to view with caut
waysider
P.S. POOP spelled backwards is constip..........eh, nevermind
T-Bone
Thanks, Don’t Worry – but I’ll tell you why your detailed posts resonate with me like The Grateful Dead's Wall of Sound (- caught some of the Long Strange Trip documentary and was absolutely fascinated by all the technical details and work that went into their wall of sound ) - – because your in-depth detailed analysis often has an almost tangible quality to it.....like being at a live concert – where you see, hear and feel it all…
why is that important? When a technician is troubleshooting a system it’s like grabbing the brass ring – when you get to put your finger on the problem. “Ah ha, so that’s why this thing failed!...yes that would cause this to do that!”
and why is that important? When you understand the cause or causes – you can fix it…or at least know what to do to prevent it from happening again…and with that comes closure.
The same holds true when people do bad things…we want to understand why and how it could happen…figure out how to “fix” what can be “fixed” (or healed)…what to do to prevent something like that from happening again…I’m sure a lot of us here on Grease Spot at times have some sort of analytical program running in the back of our minds now and again…ONCE AGAIN we rummage through old events, experiences, conversations, etc. from our time in The Way International – and we notice another detail…realize another factor involved…and come away saying “I won’t get fooled again” …resolve and another taste of closure.
honestly.... it bugs the $hit out of me sometimes trying to figure out what made wierwille tick !!!!
I think that’s what’s so unsettling for everyone after the Las Vegas mass shooting – so far investigators are stumped as to the shooter’s motive. People want to understand why someone would do that. How do you prevent something like that from happening again? I know realistically you can’t prevent every evil thing from happening – but if there were red flags on mental health issues, lifestyle, behavior pattern…did anyone close to him notice something odd but brushed it off? …something that folks can point a finger at and say “there’s an issue we should have addressed.” NPR on why finding a motive after the Las Vegas shooting matters
== == == ==
Anyway…I’m no psychologist or a medical professional anything …but as a technician I am driven to understand how things work …so I’ll probably drive myself crazy trying to figure out all this stuff…better self-medicate with some Irish Coffee.
Love & peace to you Don’t Worry
== == == ==
btw while working on this post Tonto walked by and asked me what I’m doing (she’s busy picking up after a mess I made reorganizing my stuff in our closet – boy, do I have it made…hope she doesn’t see this post
); I gave her a brief rundown of your 2 posts here and she said it’s great having your input as a healthcare professional and also from your perspective as someone who had a high leadership position in TWI…and she wishes you happiness…
and I agree with her...you are like a double-barreled shotgun that blasts through the bull$hit of TWI
ok boys & girls, your assignment for tonight is to watch shotgun willie
Edited by T-Boneneeded more time
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Grace Valerie Claire
T-Bone, great post!!
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Twinky
That's the important thing about looking back. What happened? Why? How can (I) prevent this happening (to me) again?
We will always come up against "red flags." Some we have to view with caution: proceed forward warily. Others definitely mean DO NOT PROCEED. Which is which? And how do we proceed? What do we do to stop getting into similar dangerous situations? How do we respond to red flags, now? At work? When we see something happening in our neighbourhood?
In many cases, our friends and families warned us - and we didn't listen. How do we warn our own friends and families of dangerous situations that they might be wandering into?
It doesn't mean being suspicious of everyone and everything. It does mean being vigilant (roaring lions bearing red flags are everywhere!). And it definitely means SPEAKING UP and "whistleblowing." Which is not easy when one is in a position of subservience to someone with power or authority, however it comes, over one's life.
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T-Bone
Yeah, Twinky your post got me thinking about something - - not sure where this came from - - but I’ve usually been the type to say you can’t judge peoples motives…and along with that my mind went to related ideas....actually....there’s been a couple of obfuscating ideas promoted by certain individuals on Grease Spot that went along the lines of justifying wierwille’s books, classes and ministry:
One, is that he had good intentions (good motives) but was often or occasionally or once-in-a-blue-moon (I’ll leave it up to Grease Spotters to decide the frequency) stymied by bouts of sinfulness.
And Two, sometimes wierwille-sympathizers like to appeal by consequential-ism – saying the end justifies the means........ “Alright so wierwille plagiarized a lot of material from many different sources – but bottom line is that he put it all together to give us “The Word” like it hasn’t been known for centuries.” hey, how about a round for the best cult-leader
In thinking about this what kept swirling about in my head was the three aspects of a crime that must be established before guilt can be determined in a criminal proceeding: . Motive, means and opportunity
== == == ==
Now getting back to the # 1 obfuscating idea – wierwille had a good motive/good intentions – I checked on how motive or intent are looked upon in the law:
Motive is usually used in connection with Criminal Law to explain why a person acted or refused to act in a certain way—for example, to support the prosecution's assertion that the accused committed the crime. If a person accused of murder was the beneficiary of a life insurance policy on the deceased, the prosecution might argue that greed was the motive for the killing.
Proof of motive is not required in a criminal prosecution. In determining the guilt of a criminal defendant, courts are generally not concerned with why the defendant committed the alleged crime, but whether the defendant committed the crime. However, a defendant's motive is important in other stages of a criminal case, such as police investigation and sentencing. Law enforcement personnel often consider potential motives in detecting perpetrators. Judges may consider the motives of a convicted defendant at sentencing and either increase a sentence based on avaricious motives or decrease the sentence if the defendant's motives were honorable—for example, if the accused acted in defense of a family member.
In criminal law, motive is distinct from intent. Criminal intent refers to the mental state of mind possessed by a defendant in committing a crime. With few exceptions the prosecution in a criminal case must prove that the defendant intended to commit the illegal act. The prosecution need not prove the defendant's motive. Nevertheless, prosecutors and defense attorneys alike may make an issue of motive in connection with the case.
(the above quote from: Legal use of motive)
(also see Motive defined on Wikipedia )
In the case of ex-followers versus their former cult-leader
- - wierwille’s motive can be used to explain why he acted a certain way. As in the above reference that talked about the beneficiary of a life insurance policy motivated by greed to commit the murder – I think the case could easily be made for wierwille’s lust for fame, fortune, power and pleasure drove him to establish an egocentric exploitative and parasitic organization. One has only to look at all that he had gained by sexually taking advantage of select women besides capitalizing on the time, resources, money, and hard work of other committed followers.
== == == ==
Getting to the # 2 obfuscating idea – the end justifies the means…well, at this point I think the riddle of what came first the chicken or the egg? may be solved – by merely considering what wierwille taught as “The Word”. As far as I’m concerned that chicken$hit phony theologian wierwille comes first in laying an egg that hatched into the greatest scam in way-world today! That the word of God is…(drum roll please)… wierwille – oh God !!!!
Yes..Yes...Yes ....take a good long look at the end – the establishment of an egocentric exploitative and parasitic organization and an insidious theology infused with the very essence of a sexually depraved megalomaniac. The means to build all that was wierwille building a facade of respectability…fabricating phenomenal events…manipulation....coercion...deception....harassment... lying and stealing and incompetently cobbling together a grossly skewed interpretation of The Bible. You know he wanted folks to take his PFAL class just so he could get his foot in the door – once “inside you” as a mindset the treachery escalates…
So in PFAL I remember him teaching from the gospels about what is the greatest sin one can commit…oh yeah, oh yeah I remember that …by sheer logic it’s breaking the greatest commandments love God and love your neighbor…and therefore if you love God and neighbor you don’t go around breaking the 10 commandments anyway… -oh yeah the word means what it says and says what it means yada yada yada…. Yeah, stick around awhile…maybe go in the way corps…then you see the other side – the double standard that hypocrites use.
The Bible forbids lying and stealing but that doesn’t apply to wierwille’s rampant plagiarism. The Bible forbids adultery – but that never stopped wierwille the sexual predator.
Well in the end - if what you want is an egocentric exploitative and parasitic organization and an insidious theology infused with the very essence of a sexually depraved megalomaniac (commercial ad insertion: the insidious theology can be sold separately i.e. offshoots, splinter groups, etc.
) then I agree the end justifies the means – because I know of no better way to get there then by wierwille’s means.
hey how about a round for the best cult-leader
Edited by T-Boneformatting and needed more time
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chockfull
One of the clear things to me now that was more cloudy looking back is this idea of authority. With so much in the past in the Way having been presented under the guise of a spiritual authority that has proven to be a false spiritual authority, wolves in sheep's clothing, false prophets and apostles, I am now much more in tune to what real authority is, what its boundaries and limits are, what my rights are with respect to authority, and that spiritually I have the right and privilege to remove myself from any spiritual authority that is false.
Any church you belong to as a free will choice. Any false authority you can be brought under in that respect you can say NO to. You can travel right down the street to the next church on the block where you will not be subject to spiritual abuse. Yet people feel trapped and limited in their choices and stay in their situations. The danger of Way splinters is here also - people fell like they don't have another choice.
Other forms of authority we are subject to - legal, community, employment - those are real authority not false, and they have certain things you must do for compliance, as well as very distinct limitations. Most real authority is not onerous, at worst most of the time it is tedious and time consuming. Where we see people overstep authority that is real and approach in to the false authority, we may not be able to stop a person, but we can many times change a situation. If things get too bad we could change employment, community, legal authority we are under and swap them out for a different situation. Sometimes we are genuinely stuck, but even so only for a time. No challenge lasts forever.
So this is kind of what you are talking about with red flags, suspicions, and learning from our past. To me.
Authority - interaction with, collaboration with, recognition of genuine and counterfeit, and removing myself from false authority - that is what has changed with me.
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Bolshevik
Hi DWBH, how is this known? Rinker appears to be quite the influence, being his "first".
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chockfull
He hasn’t posted here in a number of years sorry
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WordWolf
He knew it because he was in vpw's inner circle, an equivalent to where the RCC has their cardinals, so he was privy to a LOT of things- like vpw's secret stash of "original" books he (vpw) plagiarized freely.
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Rocky
Nor is he likely to so post anything anytime soon.
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T-Bone
DWBH was one of the first former-upper-leadership (he was trunk coordinator) I talked to, before I officially resigned from TWI.
It was an unusual conversation because it was peer to peer - not me as a branch coordinator talking to a superior - not even corps to corps - but just two believers sorting through a complicated mess. This was a looooooong phone conversation. We covered a lot of ground. Btw , years later we met again at the GSC Texas BBQ and he was the same - lively, down to earth, funny, wise and a great memory for details…anyway…
One of the things I wanted to verify with DWBH were these bits and pieces of a different side of wierwille that came to light from other former clergy I had talked to (after the infamous clergy meeting a lot of clergy and spouses were talking about some bad $hit that went on).
One such incident was an area coordinator’s wife told me of the time wierwille was staying at a limb home (? - can’t remember the exact place) and she walked by hall bathroom and the door was open - wierwille was standing in there wearing nothing but a bathrobe - and it was open - and him smiling at her like it was no big deal…this was one of the least creepy things that I heard from victims. DWBH made me aware of how widespread wierwille’s and LCM’s sexual predations were.
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chockfull
T Bone if my memory serves correct this incident is in Kristin Skedgell’s book Losing The Way
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T-Bone
I skimmed through Losing the Way – and couldn’t find it…it’s been a long time since I read it anyway…just to be clear the lady who told me that was not Kristen…and I’m sure there’s been similar situations like the one that was described to me.
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WordWolf
I thought Ex-C reported something to that effect as well. Perhaps I was wrong.
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waysider
It was either Ex-C or Dot Matrix.
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T-Bone
Noting the preponderance of testimonies of wierwille exposing himself might suggest he had an insatiable desire for power and control:
The power dynamic of the offender’s exposure and their desire for control is also often a significant reason behind their actions. Turner, for instance, cited the prevalence of sexual offenders in prison who expose themselves to women staff members “as a form of power and control.”
From: What motivates men to expose themselves to women without consent? (mic.com)
See also:
Sexual harassment: Why do men expose themselves? It's about power (usatoday.com)
Why do men expose themselves? It's about power, attention and control, psychologists say | wtsp.com
Paraphilias and Mental Health (webmd.com)
Exhibitionism | Psychology Today
Are We All Perverts? | Psychology Today
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chockfull
T bone I may have mixed up accounts the one I recall was a young girl with a sister who was kicked off the WOW field and the family had to deal with that and the flasher experience.
I thought that was Kristins book but I can’t seem to find my copy of it. It could have been excies story…
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OldSkool
I thought Kristin was flashed as well, but Im in the same boat as everyone else because its been a long time since I read her book.
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Bolshevik
You chose not to "renew your mind". Meaning you had a separate value system from VPW present. Otherwise you wouldn't describe the event as creepy.
In a cult odd behavior is normalized. There's a moment of choice for each person to accept or deny that feeling.
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Charity
Sounds very similar to the things Harvey Weinstein did and he's in jail now.
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T-Bone
Bolshevik, you’ve got that right!
“In a cult odd behavior is normalized” - this is a big deal !!!!! Even after some 37 years of leaving a cult, I can still recall the dramatic change I saw in a way corps sister while I was in-residence. She was beautiful and vivacious…always upbeat.
One block she was assigned to work housekeeping which included the Coachman Suite (same job mentioned in Kristen’s book). Over time there was a transformation in her demeanor…seemed preoccupied at meals instead of her bubbly self…maybe a little melancholy…never thought much of it at the time – because we were all under a lot of pressure in the corps program anyway…and I'm a guy - and don't pay a lot of attention to things like that anyway - I was too busy trying to be macho and endure "every way corps challenge"
…of course, it’s possible she was never sexually molested during that job assignment – but it’s difficult to settle the issue in my mind with all the other incidents I’m aware of now , personal observations and red flags that scream for attention…
...I’m no psychologist or mental health therapist – but in 69 years of living I can tell the difference between someone who has faced typical challenges in school or on the job and someone who has been traumatized. There’s little doubt in my mind – she was deeply wounded. I’m out of touch with those in my corps…Hopefully her and her family left TWI and her well-being has improved.
Edited by T-Bonegrammar lammar ding dong
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T-Bone
YUP !
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Bolshevik
I had a wife in housekeeping.
Our first year of marriage was marred with arguments about who her "head" was.
I eventually said it was me . . . Intending to removed those other corps men from our relationship, at least in her mind.
She at first came to me about arguments with leadership, her heads. I went higher up the chain. We were sent in circles as by two cabinet members.
It hadn't dawned on me marriage is not sacred inside of TWI. Those boundaries were intended to be porous.
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OldSkool
Interesting. Craig took that same page out of VPW's playbook when they moved the corps training to Gunnison. He would arrange encounters by having Jaqui H0rn3y (and others) send in specific women to from housekeeping to to take care of Cabin 12 and cater to craig. It was well known that martindale was doing this as I first heard about it when I was in-residence at Gunnsion from 2001-2003....few years later I read the lawsuit information online and many of the people listed were at camp gunnison. Not only that it explains why the H0rn3ys were reassigned to HQ during that time.
This is part of what TWI did not want on public record or coming to light for the general public.
Edited by OldSkoolLink to comment
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Bolshevik
The Horn#y's were my last HF coordinators. Kept me close to a number of others.
Had the same issues as with Lom@x and Lind@r.
I could feel myself vibrating at the audacity of J@ckie to pull me aside and try to convince me of victory sharing, knowing truth was being distorted. Creepy.
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