vpw, truths, lies, reasons/motives.

[WordWolf]

Please read the poll, think it over, and then select the one that most closely reflects your opinion.

[T-Bone]

i chose

vpw didn't understand the difference between truth and lies, so he lied in ignorance, thinking it was fine.

...some of the other choices would work too

[WordWolf]

I'm curious.

What leads you to think he honestly didn't understand the difference between truth and lies?

[Ham]

I dunno.. to me it looks like a cross between pathology and just plain deliberate lying..

He started out with *little* lies and plagiarism.. as as history progressed he had to fabricate bigger whoppers as he went..

to the extent he even believed quite a bit of it to be really convincing..

[waysider]

I dunno.. to me it looks like a cross between pathology and just plain deliberate lying..

He started out with *little* lies and plagiarism.. as as history progressed he had to fabricate bigger whoppers as he went..

to the extent he even believed quite a bit of it to be really convincing..

Yeah.

VPW was the original "hybrid"

He sure got a lot of mileage out of that "vehicle" he created.

[Broken Arrow]

I've entertained the thought from time to time that he repeated lies so often that he himself began to believe they were true. I know that sounds weird. I dunno, is that even possible?

[So_crates]

I've entertained the thought from time to time that he repeated lies so often that he himself began to believe they were true. I know that sounds weird. I dunno, is that even possible?

Its possible. But those are usually the most pathetic form of con men. They believe their own line of bull.

SoCrates

[Ham]

"most pathetic" might actually be a good description here..

on a practical level.. one has to believe one's own falsehood at least to the extent that one can sell it..

[mstar1]

vpw didn't understand the difference between truth and lies, so he lied in ignorance, thinking it was fine.

I would have voted for this one, but I think that (basically) everyone understands the difference between a truth and a lie until it gets seared out of them---I have a tendency to think it was probably more like Broken Arrow stated in that lies were repeated so often that they became like truth....

of course that may be some pathological thing...but I look at is more like a covering for some insecurities rather than someone who did not have a choice in the matter.

[brainfixed]

i think when you've got lots and lots and lots of people believing your lies then you've really got no other choice than to act like they're true, and then a deep fear sets in about being found out by all of those lots ad lots and lots of people so then the mind has to believe the lies to keep from giving yourself away. so i guess that what i'm saying is that he didn't support his lies all by himself.

[So_crates]

I don't doubt god told Saint Vic he'd teach the word like it was taught in the first century.

The only question I'll ask: which god?

SoCrates

[OldSkool]

I don't doubt god told Saint Vic he'd teach the word like it was taught in the first century.

The only question I'll ask: which god?

SoCrates

Oh the irony. Teach the word like it hasn't been taught since the first century using plagiarized content from many contemporary sources.

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[So_crates]

My point was I think it was the wrong side doing the teaching. ()

How else would the robbing of peoples works, the stealing of people lives, the killing of peoples spirit, and the destrution of peoples willingness to question fit?

SoCrates

[Ham]

Its possible. But those are usually the most pathetic form of con men. They believe their own line of bull.

SoCrates

I think where the lies turns sour, is when you have amassed a following of some tens of thousands.

They slowly age..

the "magic oil" does not reliably guarantee health, financial success, the retention of one's teeth.. without intervention from the evils of higher education, medical and dental care..

then one has to manufacture even bigger whoppers.

"It's YOUR fault. Go figure it out, and when you do, report back to me.." in other words, "I don't have a clue.. but I won't even

consider admitting that.. I've got da Answers.."

"you must be possessed.."

"You HAD to have 'missed it' on some 'principle' of st vic"

[So_crates]

"It's YOUR fault. Go figure it out, and when you do, report back to me.." in other words, "I don't have a clue.. but I won't even

consider admitting that.. I've got da Answers.."

"you must be possessed.."

"You HAD to have 'missed it' on some 'principle' of st vic"

Or the one that told me just what the ministry was really about: "You got tricked."

SoCrates

[Ham]

I think the lies and falsehood caught up with him..

I think at the end he died a helpless, disease ridden, bitter, angry man..

grasping at straws to the end.

One whopper after another.. "I gave my EYE for da *ministry*.."

[So_crates]

I think the lies and falsehood caught up with him..

They always do, Ham, they always do. Truth always eventually outs, sometimes it may take years, but it eventually outs.

SoCrates

[GeorgeStGeorge]

I voted for VP knowing he lied, but I imagine there were a lot of "honest" mistakes in there, as well. He just wasn't as smart as he wanted us to believe. (Which, of course, meant he lied about it...)

George

[Ham]

Or the one that told me just what the ministry was really about: "You got tricked."

SoCrates

so it comes down to what..

what if in one brief microsecond, or some measure of a second, you saw that everything you believed, or thought you believed, was just, plain, wrong..

a dear, dear dear friend asked me..

so what now? Where do you go from there? (inexact quote)

my answer is..

in this life, it has been one step of deception after another..

so friggin what.

it's the *best* they could do..

but not surprising, or unexpected. In a weird way, I saw it coming all along..

the Master of nuttiness, tells me I'm generous here..

[So_crates]

so it comes down to what..

what if in one brief microsecond, or some measure of a second, you saw that everything you believed, or thought you believed, was just, plain, wrong..

Beliefs are no guarantee for truth.

As a matter of fact, our brain is hardwired with a belief engine: something that spins out beliefs in all directions: about people, about events, about opportunities and chances.

Why? Put simply: a rabbit hears grass russling, believing its a fox, the rabbit hops away to pass its genes onto another generation. If that rabbit hung around to verify its belief, it may or may not have passed its genes to the next generation.

Being complex creatures, we humans can believe all kinds of fanciful things: UFOs and unicorns, Nessie and Nirvana. They may be true they may not, it doesn't change our ability to believe in them.

I suppose the trick is to realize its a belief and not take it as reality.

SoCrates

Edited March 31, 2011 by So_crates

[Ham]

I suppose the trick is to realize its a belief and not take it as reality.

No, I think it is not a belief, It is an illusion..

one day, the fire, or the light, will burn all of this away..

no, it will not hurt.

until then, I guess we are all screwed..

freedom..

who of you shall go..

it will include the cats in the house here..

hey.. old testament included flocks, didn't it?

[Watered Garden]

Aren't people who believe their own lies called sociopaths?

[So_crates]

Aren't people who believe their own lies called sociopaths?

(nods) And Saint Vic had a lot of sociopathic traits: lack of empathy for his victims being a big one.

See if this sounds at all like Saint Vic:

Profile of the Sociopath

This website summarizes some of the common features of descriptions of the behavior of sociopaths.

Glibness and Superficial Charm

Manipulative and Conning

They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

Grandiose Sense of Self

Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

Pathological Lying

Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt

A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

Shallow Emotions

When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

Incapacity for Love

Need for Stimulation

Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

Callousness/Lack of Empathy

Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature

Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency

Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

Irresponsibility/Unreliability

Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity

Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle

Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility

Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

Other Related Qualities:

Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them

Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them

Authoritarian

Secretive

Paranoid

Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired

Conventional appearance

Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)

Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life

Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)

Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim

Incapable of real human attachment to another

Unable to feel remorse or guilt

Extreme narcissism and grandiose

May state readily that their goal is to rule the world

(source)

SoCrates

Edited March 31, 2011 by So_crates

[Ham]

I've read as much as I could, at the moment

is the synopsis.. they are hitlers, who have no way to go?

If that isn't it, I'll read a little closer..

[So_crates]

I've read as much as I could, at the moment

is the synopsis.. they are hitlers, who have no way to go?

If that isn't it, I'll read a little closer..

The synopsis? Play a little game: see how many of a sociopaths traits match up with Saint Vic's.

You could even turn it into a drinking game: everytime Saint Vic's and a sociopath's traits match, take a drink.

SoCrates