Anyone hear of a big band gospel singer named Dave Boyer? He was big with the Billy Graham ministries during the 70s and 80s, if I recall the dates correctly. He and a big band writer and arranger named Ralph Carmichael revolutionized the medium big time but sadly, it didn't carry on much beyond them. Carmichael also wrote for such big names as Stan Kenton, Buddy Rich, and others. Sandi Patti and some of her genre sort of continued it but beyond that, much of contemporary gospel went back to country style or devolved to the "praise and worship" or the current stuff that, IMHO, is mostly drivel. I play trombone and have been a professional for all my adult life, playing in the Navy Band for 21 years and in other bands around the country. I'm recently trying to get back into arranging and, hopefully, to start writing some of my own original stuff. I've been doing a ton of mental readjustment since leaving TWI 12 years ago, trying to get my heart and mind back in line with God and with Christ, using music has been a part of that and a big help. Sadly, though, as I said, so much of contemporary gospel is too maudlin or trite to me. I hope, even at my age, that I might be able to make some small contribution to the music market.
Ted mentioned the 7-11 approach to music, I think that is an appropriate analysis even for contemporary gospel and, quite frankly, for most of modern popular music in general.
PS If I put this in a wrong thread for the purposes of this discussion, sorry 'bout that!
Hi Ted! I didn't know you posted in here. Awesome. We never met, but I sure remember hearing you sing back in the day. I was in The Way during the mid-70s and heard you sing often, you and all the other great singers and musicians back then. My favorite of yours was always 'Too Many Do-goods' haha! Too cool.
About this contemporary praise and worship music, I just can't get past it. I don't like it, and I ain't never gonna like it. I don't like cauliflower either. So there.
The idea someone cited in this thread, that singing highly repetitive praise music helps bring God into the meeting, that just creeps me out. I keep thinking of trance music, and much of the rap music genre, as extreme examples of the ill effects of such music on the human mind. The great American soprano Jessye Norman once gave an interview in which she described the ill effects of highly repetitive music; she used the proper musical and psychological terminology to describe it, neither of which I am able to do. I've been looking for two days to find a copy of that interview, but no luck.
Then, on top of the praise and worship music in churches today, they add those danged PowerPoint slide presentations up on the front wall. Man, that just makes me nuts. I'm not a child. I know how to read lyrics from a hymnal. I guess I just miss all the great old gospel songs and church hymns of the late 19th and early 20th century, many of which were in Sing Along The Way. There's not a thing in the world wrong with those songs and hymns, so why are they being overlooked? I don't get it.
I can't bring up Jessye Norman without offering a taste. Check out Jessye performing an aria from the Saint-Saëns opera 'Samson and Delilah'. Awesome, awesome, awesome:
Chorus repetition - Thomas, excellent point. And yeah, I get the pep rally / alma mater comparison.
There is a meditative quality to the use of P and W music, I think newlife, that's an interesting observation.
In other discussions I've found the younger set is mostly interested in the pop/rock stuff and artists involved in that. That's a generalization of course ,not all but a lot of the come and going musical involvement is typical band configuration pausseone and trombone, brass and reed instruments would be a welcome addition in most cases I think! Budget and availability probably have an affect. You may find some need out there for the arranging and broader instrumentation and might be welcome in some places. :) I'm a guitarist and sometime bass player - always love taking a bass call if it comes in - so that's an easy fit in pop music but expanding music and repertoire is how I learn. I'm a confessed fan of the pop form but look for craft and some degree of originality, if there is such a thing (yet another topic I guess).
The P and W platform is getting stale IMO and may go through change soon one would hope. Again - I found in other discussions about musicians, writers that so much of music is missed by "those kids" today. Discussions about whether Amy Grant's "really" a Christian post-divorce and her "secular" career, what Darlene Zschech wears, what Lincoln Brewster's using for effects these days. No interest in Larry Carlton, Michael Macdonald or any of the other individuals and their music that work outside the P and W and Christian market. Robben Ford? who's he? It's a chance to help expand horizons and thought yes but I also found that pastoral oversight can tend to put attention on the obvious and not dig deeper to see what's going on and why and learn from it. Another topic too, I guess.
Still, there is a lot of variety coming out in the last few years and there seems to be a transition of that into churches slowly but sure.
Sounds like quite a mix you've got there there, Thomas! Cool stuff.
I wonder if the Lord thinks that the praise coming from the hearts of those those singing and writing is a stale praise or format? The music isn't for or about us...it is music sung to or about the Lord. No? I for one, am thankful He will accept a "Joyful Noise" if it is given with a pure heart. It is about all that croaks out of me these days. I am not really musically inclined.
I don't think God cares if it is repetitive or a 7-11.....as long as it is joyful and full of praise.
A story Mike Card once told has always stuck with me ....he was listening to a praise song on the radio and found himself critiquing the music and lyrics, thinking this was off and that was wrong...then he felt that conviction and the Lord asked Him "Don't you think that he is praising me with all his heart?" Then that PRESENCE we Christians know....left him...as it does when the Lord makes that kind of point. God usually makes His point with a question, not an answer.
I know some of these musicians or am close to someone who does. They are some of the most humble servants you could ever meet. Their lives reflect their faith and I am so thankful for them and those who give of their talent for the Lord.
It is not perfect, but if it is praise given to God with a pure heart...I doubt it displeases Him and isn't He the whole point?
If it's heartfelt, sure. What a person offers to God is their business and I always respect effort. The quality of the heart can be full and pure while the music well, if it's meaningful to the person making it. You'd have to ask God how He feels about it, I'm just speaking for what I see and the development in my lifetime, albeit short, since the 50's when I started learning hymns and old folk songs, through to today.
The trend in "gospel" music has always been very diverse and
What I resist is pigeon holing congregational "P and W" into a single style or methodology that doesn't in fact allow for freedom of expression across the range of interest and need in a congregation of both mature and new participants. After awhile yes, it is "stale". It can be well meant, may be following a specific purpose be it outreach, edification or just fun (which is a good thing too) however a diversified community of people will respond to different things.When the diet becomes the same thump-thump-thump and one chorus after another of the same thing you're going to lose some of that. Not in a single instance or a single occasion but over time it does happen.
I've seen this in several congregations over the least 15 years or so - great people, can't fault the pastoring or leadership vision as having bad intent. It is a learning curve and I see part of our learning curve in Christian ministry as learning together and listening to the voice of God in each person as each person contributes those things at those times that are on their hearts.
Healthy congregations and communities of Christians change, ebb and flow and grow as they follow the spirit of God at work in each person and collectively as a body. That piece of "the body" works within the context of the greater body world wide - what one person in one place brings forth can work within that global community to the edification of the whole and in ways no one individual can know or perhaps even needs to know. Rather, that we all living our "treasure" in these earthen vessels have the luxury if you will of knowing that there is one God, one spirit and one Lord, living and working in all.
I can appreciate the same rock music week after week having a purpose. I don't have to listen to it or like it, although I can appreciate the intent and the effort. And it's funny because while I enjoy rock as much as many other forms of music and probably am more versed in the history of modern pop than other forms I actually do enjoy the repetition of it, in lyric or music as that's one of the components of a well crafted piece of pop music. "Sing of Your Great Love" of Hillsongs is a great example - one word "Holy" and one line "Holy is the Lord" is so powerful in that song. The first time I heard it was on a tape I was given, on a long drive up Northern California coast alone one evening and it grabbed me so much and so hard I had to pull over. I've checking out Sidewalk Prophets who have some really nice stuff. No one's breaking new ground in these categories and they're definitely hitting the mark - my mark anyway, and I know I'm not alone. So - yeah - I think there's a lot of room for a lot of stuff.
Everyone has a hymn, revelation..... word of instruction. Not everyone is going to coordinate the music for a 1/2 hour on Sunday. I think people should speak up if their needs are not getting met, but, we are always free to sing to the Lord to our hearts content in whatever style we choose.
When we come together to praise or worship for an hour......is it really that big of a deal what style the music is as long as it is real praise?
I am not a musician, so to me...I am always amazed by the whole thing. I still cannot figure out how such beautiful sounds come out of hitting a few piano keys or plucking a few strings in the right way. I will never understand how I got such a talented kid.
I just like that I am there with people who love the Lord and want to sing to Him and I still am a little awed He even let me around His wonderful children after my attitude toward them in TWI.
Like many of you, I'm fed up with the constant bang-bang-bang-bang of music which seems to be all beat and no sensitivity. I look at the words on the display and here we are singing the same chorus for the how-manyth time and I'm bored and wonder how much longer this is going to go on for. The band often comprises a couple of guitarists, drums, bongo/other percussion, sometimes the organ - you can never hear the organ or the flautist above the racket the guitarists make.
Others seem to enjoy it but I quite often zone out (sit down with my fingers in my ears and try to think of something else - have been known to make an excuse and leave the church for a while).
I raised it with the minister and it was a fudgy response and no change whatsoever, got worse if anything.
We have a new minister starting soon. Will see what he does.
Mind you, some of the Sing Along the Way songs have been played very plonk-plonk-plonk with a lack of the grace notes, trills, other little bits that make something a bit more interesting than plain 4/4. Such a long time since Thank you Dorothy, so I can't really remember (and nobody remind me please!) but wasn't that quite plonk-plonk-plonk?
In the house group I used to go to, they thought it very strange if nne of of people who could play piano were there. The house group wouldn't sing unaccompanied. Not like your average twig fellowship, where having a musician was rare.
Indeed. I'm reminded that as with the Sing Along The Way songbooks, decisions are made. By someone.
One aspect to this is the support system that hmmm, supports all of this. Starting up a P and W group and activity is a big effort. Where to start, what to do, how to do it. Who can do it, who wants to, basically a pastor is looking at his flock and seeing what''s there, what's needed, what can he do, what can they do, what can be done. People may volunteer, varying levels of ability in both what they can do and have time to do. Care is required to honor the hearts of the people in any effort, with respect.
P and W is supported now by a massive support system of music, instructional materials, guides, reperetoire break downs, orders of service, tapes, CD's, DVD's and just about everything you'd need or want plus some. There are packages of materials to assist a church to get started and going. I'm sure you're familiar with this Thomas, more than I. Again, it's not a bad thing and may be all that a group of people are going to do. If there are more resources, over time, there can be diversity.
Much of this music is very usable to an early effort or where you have limited resources - backing tracks, song books, etc. If you have a pianist or a guitarist, basic musicianship - a 4 chord song and simple melodies are very doable. The "great" hymns and songs people love are often simple - not all, but become so - over time and they're enjoyed over and over again. So that's an element too and of course the heart and the effort of the individuals is everything.
I am a musician. I have been in several praise and worship teams and now am not.
In the years I was, the understanding I got from them is you sing over and over again to invoke the presence of God and to welcome the Holy spirit. Your singing actually brings the spirit of God to the service. A couple of the worship leaders said it was their job to lead the people into the presence of God and into the throne of God.
This is something that I am not very fond of. Oh, I am all about trying to help bring people into the Presence of God if I can, but I prefer to try and do it by "telling them of the good News". But anyway, as you all know, I like to illustrate a point by way of a story. Sorry, guess that's how I am wired. And so:
An uncomfortable experience happened to a lot of us at my daughters Baccalaureate, which-I think-is a pre-graduation ceremony for senior high schoolers. And in my experience, these Baccalaureates have always been held at a church with a spiritual connotation to it. Well, the woman running the show at her church happened to be a very dedicated Christian lady. And, she was the lead singer in her church's very own "praise singing band". At the end of the "B"-Service (I don't want to try and spell it again!), her band, with her as the lead singer started playing this last song. And all of us were to be singing along with the song. And the crowd, many of them non-Christians, being polite, sang along with everybody else. My wife, kids and I sang with the song, because were are Christians, and because this gal "Frankie" was our friend. We had had many a conversation with her about God and the Bible, our kids, etc, and we liked her and still do. BUT, when we came to the last chorus of the song, she forced everybody to sing it over and over! With a religious fervor and a belief that she was "singing God into the meeting", she kept making us sing that last verse over and over! It was evident that she held us captive and wasn't going to let us go! This was an "Act of God" and a "move of the Spirit" and she was bound by the "Holy Ghost" to keep going on and on and on and on! By this time, my wife and I and many of the non-Christians were very uncomfortable. And my daughter, sitting with the group of soon to be graduates looked over at us with a look of dismay on her face. And, I became angry at Frankie for hijacking what could have been a very nice service-the pastor's speech had been very nice for all present-and I, like my daughter just quit singing and stared daggers at Frankie. What was also apparent was that Frankie's whole effort was "all about her" and how SHE was the one pulling off this "great work of God", and "if you don't like it too bad! I'm saving souls here!".
Finally, it was over. Uggh. Later, a hippy chick whom we know and love came up and said; "Hey "Clay" and "Mary", what was up with all that? I know you guys are Christians too, but I could tell by your faces that you were as uncomfortable as I was with Frankie's music thing. What was she trying to do with singing that last verse over and over like that? Force us to become Christians? Are all Christian services supposed to be like that?" And so, we tried to explain to her how Ist Corinthians 13 is supposed to work, with the love of God being at the center of what we do, and not ourselves. And, we "betrayed" our sister in Christ Frankie by simply telling her that "Frankie has a big ego and that she was not acting very Christian at all in that situation". I think that whole thing "queered it" for a good many of people, and not a few of them being my daughters' friends. Hmmph. "Way Productions", the devil's playground...
Of course, being in TWI made us all experts on the Holy Spirit and what we did or believed about God was never strange or completely off the mark. We were about as nutty charismatic as it gets..... and we were certainly using good judgment and discernment propping up a serial predator and molester as we sang his praises.
What is the point of dissing this woman Frankie.....who is not here to defend herself?
It is kind of ironic that it was the Jesus Movement that really challenged traditional songs...pipe organ and hymnals.....and gave birth to the contemporary Christian music we have today. It is a few generations later and many from that era are longing for a more traditional approach.
I wonder if that is how the over 40 crowd felt when they heard the 2nd Chapter of Acts play? :)
It is true...we have become our parents.
I am sincerely more than thankful to those who revolutionized praise music.....there would not be so many wonderful options today. Thanks to those of you on this thread who had a hand it that..... a few of you really did... you helped paved the way. Imagine what it would be like if those young people had not reached up praising and expressing it in their own way?
not so much in SATW but Way Productions sometimes in songs over-emphasied glossalia or Speaking/Singing in Tongues which CCM is hesitant to mention for fear of offending non-charismatic Christians who enjoy P&W, although songs about the Holy Spirit are mentioned(but no tongues mentioned in lyrics), Hillsongs comes to mind, and certainly healing has been refered to in CCM P&W. btw Marty Haugen, Handt Hanson, Dakota, Eric Wafield, David Hass, and Bernadette Farell are Catholic, Lutheran, and Episcopalian composers who used folk/pop music from the 1980's on(acoustic folk guitar, flute, bongos/congas, egg shakers/maracass). No electric lead and bass guitar or drumset were utilized. This also includes the previous mentioned Lutheran group Bread fot the Journey.
Of course, being in TWI made us all experts on the Holy Spirit and what we did or believed about God was never strange or completely off the mark. We were about as nutty charismatic as it gets..... and we were certainly using good judgment and discernment propping up a serial predator and molester as we sang his praises.
What is the point of dissing this woman Frankie.....who is not here to defend herself?
Please don't be defensive about this Geisha. This gal will never come to this site. I could have said "Mabel" and it wouldn't have made any difference at all. And, if you'll recall, I haven't said that I think praise singing is wrong, I just said it was "not my cup of tea". But I will go on to say that I truly do not like the notion of "singing the Spirit of God into the meetings" as this woman was trying to do. I don't see that anywhere in the Bible. I do know that Jesus said that "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them". No need to use singing as a "lure" for the Spirit of God to come into a meeting, because, He is already there. I also know that "it is the goodness of God that leadeth thee unto repentance", not "exciting singing and repetitive singing". And, you'll just have to take my word for it: This woman was clearly out of line and did more harm than good. And that situation illustrates just what I believe to be obnoxious and counter productive.
And I never said we in The Way had it all together when it comes to the gift of Holy Spirit. I just don't think that the situation that I described was appropriate or beneficial because it lacked the main ingredient: Charity.
The point of sharing that incident is that using singing in that manner is, according to what I see from the Bible in I Corinthians chapter 13, something that is counterproductive and not profitable. I have no doubt that when you sing in whatever manner you choose to sing, that you are walking in the Love Of God, desiring only to edify those with whom you are surrounded! :)
I don't have a problem saying "singing in" the Holy Spirit is not biblical..it isn't. I just wondered why you had to hold a particular person up to ridicule is all.
Although, theoretically, if one is truly offering praise to God...wouldn't it be just like Him to be there to accept it? If God is present in that way accepting praise...one would think the Almighty Creator...would actually have a recognizable presence. He is pretty holy...He makes an impact. :)
Maybe she was just confused or had experienced the presence of God in worship and was trying too hard to share that in the wrong format......perhaps it was more innocent than evil.
Maybe she was just confused or had experienced the presence of God in worship and was trying too hard to share that in the wrong format......perhaps it was more innocent than evil.
Maybe. But, then again, maybe she was doing the same thing we used to do when we tried to cram PFAL down peoples' throats.
Regarding this "repetitive singing" some are discussing, I'm not sure if I've heard it although I go to a church where they sing contemporary music. I was listening to the radio yesterday and on came Bob Seger's "Night Moves". Talk about repetitive! I like that song, by the way, but he often repeats lyrics in his songs. That's fairly common in pop and country, is that what people are talking about?
On another topic, people are talking about "singing the Holy Spirit into the meeting". I think there is a difference between that and what modern worship leaders mean when they say they lead the congregation into the presence of God. The first implies that the congregation needs to get all "whooped up" to experience God. It's controlling in that it doesn't allow room for people's different experiences.
Leading people into the presence of God simply means to set a tone or atmosphere where people can be mindful of God's presence. It's up to the person to enter into that presence. Music is a great way to set that atmosphere. God relates to each person differently. Someone may experience unspeakable joy, others may experience profound grief. Perhaps they recently lost a loved one, or just received a bad medical report. Many times a person may experience absolutely nothing. That's okay too. These aren't things to be forced.
That's another pet peeve of mine: Trying to attract kids to Christianity by imitating seriously worldly music and putting Christian words to it.
Sometimes it's just the kids themselves who have musical talent and form bands and do music. Taste in music across generations changes, and many times the youth adopts musical taste to help establish their own identity seperate from their parents. All part of a growing up process.
I talked to one modern Christian band who grew up with a father as a pastor in a certain denomination that outlawed any musical instruments besides a piano or organ as hymn accompaniment. These kids had tremendous musical talent and were completely stifled under those rules. They formed a band and became popular, all the while struggling against the edicts of the denomination. Eventually they got the opportunity to audition for the head of the denomination. They were so excited. The man was so obtuse in his views he completely shut them down and said "you will never play in any of my churches". Their spirit was broken. Eventually they decided that if they weren't allowed to do this they would play in other people's churches, and have made a career out of doing so.
U2 has a somewhat similar history chock. They've ceratainly developed over the years,in a number of different ways,
Tradiional versus hmmm, whatever, say "contemporary" isn't a concern to me. What goes around comes around. There's need to retain an open mind and heart, Some want that ol' time religion and music and that was good enough for my daddy so it's good enough for me. That's fine - those who feel that way should have a range of access to that IMO. Those who don't should have an access to what speaks to them. At the center there can be unity and harmony, as there's no divisiveness of "God's part". It's justa bit of a quandry for many that they may shift their church based on the "music" - one could say it doesn't matter to which another can say then why bother, or why be so strict in what's used or not used? And on the other side of the lectern it can be a losing battle where no one's every completely happy no matter what you do, The current music ministry and business endeavors may be on the right track over - all, once (IMO) we get over this pop-infatuation bump. It's being fed by the media and information explosion - what once might have been a regional local effort and effect can be global in days - hours even. That spreading of any one piece of information can be a good thing - or not,
Over the years- yes, my observation has been that christian ministry/gospel music and all that's around that has change eNORmously, Largely for the better IMO. It'll change more and again.
I gotta say that christian pop just isnt my thing ---not to denigrate it anyway, it is just something that doesnt speak to me. I know its just me but it generally makes me feel more like Im at a shopping mall rather than approaching closer to God --but to each his own, I respect their gifts and the works they do, it just doesnt hit home for me.
Ive allowed myself to be exposed to some things that I never ever would have considered when I was younger and I can find many traces of inspiration in it.
I didnt grow up in a church and was a rocking screaming banshee by the time I hit TWI. Traditional old chorale hymns were for old farts, pipe organs were inconceivably wierd...Ive either learned how to listen or else now I'm just an old fart myself ( ) some of that stuff is monumental if you can give it a chance and an open minded listen..
what once might have been a regional local effort and effect can be global in days - hours even.
i think there is something to be said for churches that develop their own music programs and develop according to their own lines and dont get homogenized into what is popular elsewhere.
I was driving through South Carolina about 6 months ago on a Sunday and found some small rural black church on the radio, there was a smokin gospel/blues band, raucous choir and a preacher who SANG his sermon in call and response with the band and choir. You could tell they had a basic structure but most of it was composed and improvised in the moment. The preacher, band and choir all had incredible sensitivity to one another changing directions building to crescendos and altering the musical nuances as the message unfolded...
for me it was an amazing moment to hear that-definitely inspired and taylored to THAT specific congregation and utilizing THEIR talents to a very unique service.
I drove around trying to find the place but never did.
There is a tradition especially in some places in the south for churches to develop their own methods of music that are indigenous and relevant to that place. Its usually eye opening, that one definitely was.
Ive been to native american churches, rural southern churches, bluegrass churches, jazz churches, blues churches, taize services....christian music possibilities are incredibly diverse. It all has its place but I should say i especially appreciate when churches develop their own musical identity.
I'd love to see what ethiopian churches sing, or throughout Africa or Mongolia or Siberia, coptic churches or in the outback of Australia...what do Chinese churches sound like?? or for that matter Hawaii? Polynesia? South America? Eskimo churches?
Its a worldwide body of talent, I admit Im not very well versed in it at all, but it all can be learned from and enjoyed.
It doesnt have to be one specific genre as the ONLY choice unless it fits that particular congregation
but--- what do I know--I'm currently going to an early service that has no music-- and I like that too
I've actually heard a little bit of African Christian music. Very uplifting, light and happy sounding. I've been told that if you are in an African (not African-American) church and you don't dance, they think there must be something wrong with you. If you're not excited, then why aren't you dancing? It's what I've been told, anyway. Here, a lot of the churches think its weird if you do dance during a worship service. "Are you letting your emotions get the best of you? Watch out, you're getting out of control!"
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pausonne
Anyone hear of a big band gospel singer named Dave Boyer? He was big with the Billy Graham ministries during the 70s and 80s, if I recall the dates correctly. He and a big band writer and arranger named Ralph Carmichael revolutionized the medium big time but sadly, it didn't carry on much beyond them. Carmichael also wrote for such big names as Stan Kenton, Buddy Rich, and others. Sandi Patti and some of her genre sort of continued it but beyond that, much of contemporary gospel went back to country style or devolved to the "praise and worship" or the current stuff that, IMHO, is mostly drivel. I play trombone and have been a professional for all my adult life, playing in the Navy Band for 21 years and in other bands around the country. I'm recently trying to get back into arranging and, hopefully, to start writing some of my own original stuff. I've been doing a ton of mental readjustment since leaving TWI 12 years ago, trying to get my heart and mind back in line with God and with Christ, using music has been a part of that and a big help. Sadly, though, as I said, so much of contemporary gospel is too maudlin or trite to me. I hope, even at my age, that I might be able to make some small contribution to the music market.
Ted mentioned the 7-11 approach to music, I think that is an appropriate analysis even for contemporary gospel and, quite frankly, for most of modern popular music in general.
PS If I put this in a wrong thread for the purposes of this discussion, sorry 'bout that!
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waysider
P&W always reminded me of high school pep rallies. Not that I have anything against pep rallies. Just not my thing.
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Ham
Hm.. Hight school pep rallies.
P, E, P,
More... pep pills, pep pills..
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Praise somgs/choruses are like the fight song while Worship inspirational songs are more Alma Mater/hymn like.
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OperaBuff
Hi Ted! I didn't know you posted in here. Awesome. We never met, but I sure remember hearing you sing back in the day. I was in The Way during the mid-70s and heard you sing often, you and all the other great singers and musicians back then. My favorite of yours was always 'Too Many Do-goods' haha! Too cool.
About this contemporary praise and worship music, I just can't get past it. I don't like it, and I ain't never gonna like it. I don't like cauliflower either. So there.
The idea someone cited in this thread, that singing highly repetitive praise music helps bring God into the meeting, that just creeps me out. I keep thinking of trance music, and much of the rap music genre, as extreme examples of the ill effects of such music on the human mind. The great American soprano Jessye Norman once gave an interview in which she described the ill effects of highly repetitive music; she used the proper musical and psychological terminology to describe it, neither of which I am able to do. I've been looking for two days to find a copy of that interview, but no luck.
Then, on top of the praise and worship music in churches today, they add those danged PowerPoint slide presentations up on the front wall. Man, that just makes me nuts. I'm not a child. I know how to read lyrics from a hymnal. I guess I just miss all the great old gospel songs and church hymns of the late 19th and early 20th century, many of which were in Sing Along The Way. There's not a thing in the world wrong with those songs and hymns, so why are they being overlooked? I don't get it.
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socks
Chorus repetition - Thomas, excellent point. And yeah, I get the pep rally / alma mater comparison.
There is a meditative quality to the use of P and W music, I think newlife, that's an interesting observation.
In other discussions I've found the younger set is mostly interested in the pop/rock stuff and artists involved in that. That's a generalization of course ,not all but a lot of the come and going musical involvement is typical band configuration pausseone and trombone, brass and reed instruments would be a welcome addition in most cases I think! Budget and availability probably have an affect. You may find some need out there for the arranging and broader instrumentation and might be welcome in some places. :) I'm a guitarist and sometime bass player - always love taking a bass call if it comes in - so that's an easy fit in pop music but expanding music and repertoire is how I learn. I'm a confessed fan of the pop form but look for craft and some degree of originality, if there is such a thing (yet another topic I guess).
The P and W platform is getting stale IMO and may go through change soon one would hope. Again - I found in other discussions about musicians, writers that so much of music is missed by "those kids" today. Discussions about whether Amy Grant's "really" a Christian post-divorce and her "secular" career, what Darlene Zschech wears, what Lincoln Brewster's using for effects these days. No interest in Larry Carlton, Michael Macdonald or any of the other individuals and their music that work outside the P and W and Christian market. Robben Ford? who's he?
It's a chance to help expand horizons and thought yes but I also found that pastoral oversight can tend to put attention on the obvious and not dig deeper to see what's going on and why and learn from it. Another topic too, I guess.
Still, there is a lot of variety coming out in the last few years and there seems to be a transition of that into churches slowly but sure.
Sounds like quite a mix you've got there there, Thomas! Cool stuff.
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geisha779
I wonder if the Lord thinks that the praise coming from the hearts of those those singing and writing is a stale praise or format? The music isn't for or about us...it is music sung to or about the Lord. No? I for one, am thankful He will accept a "Joyful Noise" if it is given with a pure heart. It is about all that croaks out of me these days. I am not really musically inclined.
I don't think God cares if it is repetitive or a 7-11.....as long as it is joyful and full of praise.
A story Mike Card once told has always stuck with me ....he was listening to a praise song on the radio and found himself critiquing the music and lyrics, thinking this was off and that was wrong...then he felt that conviction and the Lord asked Him "Don't you think that he is praising me with all his heart?" Then that PRESENCE we Christians know....left him...as it does when the Lord makes that kind of point. God usually makes His point with a question, not an answer.
I know some of these musicians or am close to someone who does. They are some of the most humble servants you could ever meet. Their lives reflect their faith and I am so thankful for them and those who give of their talent for the Lord.
It is not perfect, but if it is praise given to God with a pure heart...I doubt it displeases Him and isn't He the whole point?
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socks
If it's heartfelt, sure. What a person offers to God is their business and I always respect effort. The quality of the heart can be full and pure while the music well, if it's meaningful to the person making it. You'd have to ask God how He feels about it, I'm just speaking for what I see and the development in my lifetime, albeit short, since the 50's when I started learning hymns and old folk songs, through to today.
The trend in "gospel" music has always been very diverse and
What I resist is pigeon holing congregational "P and W" into a single style or methodology that doesn't in fact allow for freedom of expression across the range of interest and need in a congregation of both mature and new participants. After awhile yes, it is "stale". It can be well meant, may be following a specific purpose be it outreach, edification or just fun (which is a good thing too) however a diversified community of people will respond to different things.When the diet becomes the same thump-thump-thump and one chorus after another of the same thing you're going to lose some of that. Not in a single instance or a single occasion but over time it does happen.
I've seen this in several congregations over the least 15 years or so - great people, can't fault the pastoring or leadership vision as having bad intent. It is a learning curve and I see part of our learning curve in Christian ministry as learning together and listening to the voice of God in each person as each person contributes those things at those times that are on their hearts.
Healthy congregations and communities of Christians change, ebb and flow and grow as they follow the spirit of God at work in each person and collectively as a body. That piece of "the body" works within the context of the greater body world wide - what one person in one place brings forth can work within that global community to the edification of the whole and in ways no one individual can know or perhaps even needs to know. Rather, that we all living our "treasure" in these earthen vessels have the luxury if you will of knowing that there is one God, one spirit and one Lord, living and working in all.
I can appreciate the same rock music week after week having a purpose. I don't have to listen to it or like it, although I can appreciate the intent and the effort. And it's funny because while I enjoy rock as much as many other forms of music and probably am more versed in the history of modern pop than other forms I actually do enjoy the repetition of it, in lyric or music as that's one of the components of a well crafted piece of pop music. "Sing of Your Great Love" of Hillsongs is a great example - one word "Holy" and one line "Holy is the Lord" is so powerful in that song. The first time I heard it was on a tape I was given, on a long drive up Northern California coast alone one evening and it grabbed me so much and so hard I had to pull over. I've checking out Sidewalk Prophets who have some really nice stuff. No one's breaking new ground in these categories and they're definitely hitting the mark - my mark anyway, and I know I'm not alone. So - yeah - I think there's a lot of room for a lot of stuff.
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geisha779
Everyone has a hymn, revelation..... word of instruction. Not everyone is going to coordinate the music for a 1/2 hour on Sunday. I think people should speak up if their needs are not getting met, but, we are always free to sing to the Lord to our hearts content in whatever style we choose.
When we come together to praise or worship for an hour......is it really that big of a deal what style the music is as long as it is real praise?
I am not a musician, so to me...I am always amazed by the whole thing. I still cannot figure out how such beautiful sounds come out of hitting a few piano keys or plucking a few strings in the right way. I will never understand how I got such a talented kid.
I just like that I am there with people who love the Lord and want to sing to Him and I still am a little awed He even let me around His wonderful children after my attitude toward them in TWI.
Go figure.
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Twinky
I'm enjoying this discussion!
Like many of you, I'm fed up with the constant bang-bang-bang-bang of music which seems to be all beat and no sensitivity. I look at the words on the display and here we are singing the same chorus for the how-manyth time and I'm bored and wonder how much longer this is going to go on for. The band often comprises a couple of guitarists, drums, bongo/other percussion, sometimes the organ - you can never hear the organ or the flautist above the racket the guitarists make.
Others seem to enjoy it but I quite often zone out (sit down with my fingers in my ears and try to think of something else - have been known to make an excuse and leave the church for a while).
I raised it with the minister and it was a fudgy response and no change whatsoever, got worse if anything.
We have a new minister starting soon. Will see what he does.
Mind you, some of the Sing Along the Way songs have been played very plonk-plonk-plonk with a lack of the grace notes, trills, other little bits that make something a bit more interesting than plain 4/4. Such a long time since Thank you Dorothy, so I can't really remember (and nobody remind me please!) but wasn't that quite plonk-plonk-plonk?
In the house group I used to go to, they thought it very strange if nne of of people who could play piano were there. The house group wouldn't sing unaccompanied. Not like your average twig fellowship, where having a musician was rare.
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socks
Indeed. I'm reminded that as with the Sing Along The Way songbooks, decisions are made. By someone.
One aspect to this is the support system that hmmm, supports all of this. Starting up a P and W group and activity is a big effort. Where to start, what to do, how to do it. Who can do it, who wants to, basically a pastor is looking at his flock and seeing what''s there, what's needed, what can he do, what can they do, what can be done. People may volunteer, varying levels of ability in both what they can do and have time to do. Care is required to honor the hearts of the people in any effort, with respect.
P and W is supported now by a massive support system of music, instructional materials, guides, reperetoire break downs, orders of service, tapes, CD's, DVD's and just about everything you'd need or want plus some. There are packages of materials to assist a church to get started and going. I'm sure you're familiar with this Thomas, more than I. Again, it's not a bad thing and may be all that a group of people are going to do. If there are more resources, over time, there can be diversity.
Much of this music is very usable to an early effort or where you have limited resources - backing tracks, song books, etc. If you have a pianist or a guitarist, basic musicianship - a 4 chord song and simple melodies are very doable. The "great" hymns and songs people love are often simple - not all, but become so - over time and they're enjoyed over and over again. So that's an element too and of course the heart and the effort of the individuals is everything.
Anyhoo - yeah, nice discussion!
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ClayJay
NewLife said:
This is something that I am not very fond of. Oh, I am all about trying to help bring people into the Presence of God if I can, but I prefer to try and do it by "telling them of the good News". But anyway, as you all know, I like to illustrate a point by way of a story. Sorry, guess that's how I am wired. And so:
An uncomfortable experience happened to a lot of us at my daughters Baccalaureate, which-I think-is a pre-graduation ceremony for senior high schoolers. And in my experience, these Baccalaureates have always been held at a church with a spiritual connotation to it. Well, the woman running the show at her church happened to be a very dedicated Christian lady. And, she was the lead singer in her church's very own "praise singing band". At the end of the "B"-Service (I don't want to try and spell it again!), her band, with her as the lead singer started playing this last song. And all of us were to be singing along with the song. And the crowd, many of them non-Christians, being polite, sang along with everybody else. My wife, kids and I sang with the song, because were are Christians, and because this gal "Frankie" was our friend. We had had many a conversation with her about God and the Bible, our kids, etc, and we liked her and still do. BUT, when we came to the last chorus of the song, she forced everybody to sing it over and over! With a religious fervor and a belief that she was "singing God into the meeting", she kept making us sing that last verse over and over! It was evident that she held us captive and wasn't going to let us go! This was an "Act of God" and a "move of the Spirit" and she was bound by the "Holy Ghost" to keep going on and on and on and on! By this time, my wife and I and many of the non-Christians were very uncomfortable. And my daughter, sitting with the group of soon to be graduates looked over at us with a look of dismay on her face. And, I became angry at Frankie for hijacking what could have been a very nice service-the pastor's speech had been very nice for all present-and I, like my daughter just quit singing and stared daggers at Frankie. What was also apparent was that Frankie's whole effort was "all about her" and how SHE was the one pulling off this "great work of God", and "if you don't like it too bad! I'm saving souls here!".
Finally, it was over. Uggh. Later, a hippy chick whom we know and love came up and said; "Hey "Clay" and "Mary", what was up with all that? I know you guys are Christians too, but I could tell by your faces that you were as uncomfortable as I was with Frankie's music thing. What was she trying to do with singing that last verse over and over like that? Force us to become Christians? Are all Christian services supposed to be like that?" And so, we tried to explain to her how Ist Corinthians 13 is supposed to work, with the love of God being at the center of what we do, and not ourselves. And, we "betrayed" our sister in Christ Frankie by simply telling her that "Frankie has a big ego and that she was not acting very Christian at all in that situation". I think that whole thing "queered it" for a good many of people, and not a few of them being my daughters' friends. Hmmph. "Way Productions", the devil's playground...
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geisha779
Of course, being in TWI made us all experts on the Holy Spirit and what we did or believed about God was never strange or completely off the mark. We were about as nutty charismatic as it gets..... and we were certainly using good judgment and discernment propping up a serial predator and molester as we sang his praises.
What is the point of dissing this woman Frankie.....who is not here to defend herself?
................................................................................
It is kind of ironic that it was the Jesus Movement that really challenged traditional songs...pipe organ and hymnals.....and gave birth to the contemporary Christian music we have today. It is a few generations later and many from that era are longing for a more traditional approach.
I wonder if that is how the over 40 crowd felt when they heard the 2nd Chapter of Acts play? :)
It is true...we have become our parents.
I am sincerely more than thankful to those who revolutionized praise music.....there would not be so many wonderful options today. Thanks to those of you on this thread who had a hand it that..... a few of you really did... you helped paved the way.
Imagine what it would be like if those young people had not reached up praising and expressing it in their own way?
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
not so much in SATW but Way Productions sometimes in songs over-emphasied glossalia or Speaking/Singing in Tongues which CCM is hesitant to mention for fear of offending non-charismatic Christians who enjoy P&W, although songs about the Holy Spirit are mentioned(but no tongues mentioned in lyrics), Hillsongs comes to mind, and certainly healing has been refered to in CCM P&W. btw Marty Haugen, Handt Hanson, Dakota, Eric Wafield, David Hass, and Bernadette Farell are Catholic, Lutheran, and Episcopalian composers who used folk/pop music from the 1980's on(acoustic folk guitar, flute, bongos/congas, egg shakers/maracass). No electric lead and bass guitar or drumset were utilized. This also includes the previous mentioned Lutheran group Bread fot the Journey.
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ClayJay
Please don't be defensive about this Geisha. This gal will never come to this site. I could have said "Mabel" and it wouldn't have made any difference at all. And, if you'll recall, I haven't said that I think praise singing is wrong, I just said it was "not my cup of tea". But I will go on to say that I truly do not like the notion of "singing the Spirit of God into the meetings" as this woman was trying to do. I don't see that anywhere in the Bible. I do know that Jesus said that "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them". No need to use singing as a "lure" for the Spirit of God to come into a meeting, because, He is already there. I also know that "it is the goodness of God that leadeth thee unto repentance", not "exciting singing and repetitive singing". And, you'll just have to take my word for it: This woman was clearly out of line and did more harm than good. And that situation illustrates just what I believe to be obnoxious and counter productive.
And I never said we in The Way had it all together when it comes to the gift of Holy Spirit. I just don't think that the situation that I described was appropriate or beneficial because it lacked the main ingredient: Charity.
The point of sharing that incident is that using singing in that manner is, according to what I see from the Bible in I Corinthians chapter 13, something that is counterproductive and not profitable. I have no doubt that when you sing in whatever manner you choose to sing, that you are walking in the Love Of God, desiring only to edify those with whom you are surrounded!
:)
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geisha779
I don't have a problem saying "singing in" the Holy Spirit is not biblical..it isn't. I just wondered why you had to hold a particular person up to ridicule is all.
Although, theoretically, if one is truly offering praise to God...wouldn't it be just like Him to be there to accept it? If God is present in that way accepting praise...one would think the Almighty Creator...would actually have a recognizable presence. He is pretty holy...He makes an impact. :)
Maybe she was just confused or had experienced the presence of God in worship and was trying too hard to share that in the wrong format......perhaps it was more innocent than evil.
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waysider
Maybe. But, then again, maybe she was doing the same thing we used to do when we tried to cram PFAL down peoples' throats.
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geisha779
Well, at least you are free to assume about people however you choose.
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Broken Arrow
Regarding this "repetitive singing" some are discussing, I'm not sure if I've heard it although I go to a church where they sing contemporary music. I was listening to the radio yesterday and on came Bob Seger's "Night Moves". Talk about repetitive! I like that song, by the way, but he often repeats lyrics in his songs. That's fairly common in pop and country, is that what people are talking about?
On another topic, people are talking about "singing the Holy Spirit into the meeting". I think there is a difference between that and what modern worship leaders mean when they say they lead the congregation into the presence of God. The first implies that the congregation needs to get all "whooped up" to experience God. It's controlling in that it doesn't allow room for people's different experiences.
Leading people into the presence of God simply means to set a tone or atmosphere where people can be mindful of God's presence. It's up to the person to enter into that presence. Music is a great way to set that atmosphere. God relates to each person differently. Someone may experience unspeakable joy, others may experience profound grief. Perhaps they recently lost a loved one, or just received a bad medical report. Many times a person may experience absolutely nothing. That's okay too. These aren't things to be forced.
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chockfull
Sometimes it's just the kids themselves who have musical talent and form bands and do music. Taste in music across generations changes, and many times the youth adopts musical taste to help establish their own identity seperate from their parents. All part of a growing up process.
I talked to one modern Christian band who grew up with a father as a pastor in a certain denomination that outlawed any musical instruments besides a piano or organ as hymn accompaniment. These kids had tremendous musical talent and were completely stifled under those rules. They formed a band and became popular, all the while struggling against the edicts of the denomination. Eventually they got the opportunity to audition for the head of the denomination. They were so excited. The man was so obtuse in his views he completely shut them down and said "you will never play in any of my churches". Their spirit was broken. Eventually they decided that if they weren't allowed to do this they would play in other people's churches, and have made a career out of doing so.
Very inspiring young people to me!
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socks
U2 has a somewhat similar history chock. They've ceratainly developed over the years,in a number of different ways,
Tradiional versus hmmm, whatever, say "contemporary" isn't a concern to me. What goes around comes around. There's need to retain an open mind and heart, Some want that ol' time religion and music and that was good enough for my daddy so it's good enough for me. That's fine - those who feel that way should have a range of access to that IMO. Those who don't should have an access to what speaks to them. At the center there can be unity and harmony, as there's no divisiveness of "God's part". It's justa bit of a quandry for many that they may shift their church based on the "music" - one could say it doesn't matter to which another can say then why bother, or why be so strict in what's used or not used? And on the other side of the lectern it can be a losing battle where no one's every completely happy no matter what you do, The current music ministry and business endeavors may be on the right track over - all, once (IMO) we get over this pop-infatuation bump. It's being fed by the media and information explosion - what once might have been a regional local effort and effect can be global in days - hours even. That spreading of any one piece of information can be a good thing - or not,
Over the years- yes, my observation has been that christian ministry/gospel music and all that's around that has change eNORmously, Largely for the better IMO. It'll change more and again.
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mstar1
I gotta say that christian pop just isnt my thing ---not to denigrate it anyway, it is just something that doesnt speak to me. I know its just me but it generally makes me feel more like Im at a shopping mall rather than approaching closer to God --but to each his own, I respect their gifts and the works they do, it just doesnt hit home for me.
Ive allowed myself to be exposed to some things that I never ever would have considered when I was younger and I can find many traces of inspiration in it.
I didnt grow up in a church and was a rocking screaming banshee by the time I hit TWI. Traditional old chorale hymns were for old farts, pipe organs were inconceivably wierd...Ive either learned how to listen or else now I'm just an old fart myself (
) some of that stuff is monumental if you can give it a chance and an open minded listen..
i think there is something to be said for churches that develop their own music programs and develop according to their own lines and dont get homogenized into what is popular elsewhere.
I was driving through South Carolina about 6 months ago on a Sunday and found some small rural black church on the radio, there was a smokin gospel/blues band, raucous choir and a preacher who SANG his sermon in call and response with the band and choir. You could tell they had a basic structure but most of it was composed and improvised in the moment. The preacher, band and choir all had incredible sensitivity to one another changing directions building to crescendos and altering the musical nuances as the message unfolded...
for me it was an amazing moment to hear that-definitely inspired and taylored to THAT specific congregation and utilizing THEIR talents to a very unique service.
I drove around trying to find the place but never did.
There is a tradition especially in some places in the south for churches to develop their own methods of music that are indigenous and relevant to that place. Its usually eye opening, that one definitely was.
Ive been to native american churches, rural southern churches, bluegrass churches, jazz churches, blues churches, taize services....christian music possibilities are incredibly diverse. It all has its place but I should say i especially appreciate when churches develop their own musical identity.
I'd love to see what ethiopian churches sing, or throughout Africa or Mongolia or Siberia, coptic churches or in the outback of Australia...what do Chinese churches sound like?? or for that matter Hawaii? Polynesia? South America? Eskimo churches?
Its a worldwide body of talent, I admit Im not very well versed in it at all, but it all can be learned from and enjoyed.
It doesnt have to be one specific genre as the ONLY choice unless it fits that particular congregation
but--- what do I know--I'm currently going to an early service that has no music--
and I like that too
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Broken Arrow
I've actually heard a little bit of African Christian music. Very uplifting, light and happy sounding. I've been told that if you are in an African (not African-American) church and you don't dance, they think there must be something wrong with you. If you're not excited, then why aren't you dancing? It's what I've been told, anyway. Here, a lot of the churches think its weird if you do dance during a worship service. "Are you letting your emotions get the best of you? Watch out, you're getting out of control!"
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waysider
Take your Sing Along The Way books and turn to Look In The Sky.
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