no doubt John Newton would have been mad if he'd seen VPW's rewrite of his lyrics of Amazing Grace. Newton understood how deeply sin is in us all, something VPW never wanted to admit... even though there were thousands of women (and men)who would have been able to expose it in him.
Newton's lyrics are in the public domain, and the tune. Oddly enough, though, people can still copyright certain music arrangements which use the melody of it or any old tune. I think doing silly stuff like singing Amazing Grace to the tune of Gilligan's Island or the old Coca Cola jingle ("I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony...") was big in the 1970s, at the height of the Jesus Movement when so many young people were getting "turned on to Jesus." The only reason TWI grew was because it leached unsuspecting people away from the Jesus Movement.
The Jesus Movement spurred a great burst of worship music writing. (Christian revivals throughout history have always spurred worship renewal.) This created the modern praise music movement led by Calvary Chapel/ Maranatha music (and Integrity, Vineyard/ Mercy, Hillsong, etc). But TWI never developed this, because VPW made TWI focus on himself instead of on Jesus Christ, who inspires praise music.
The Jesus Movement spurred a great burst of worship music writing. (Christian revivals throughout history have always spurred worship renewal.) This created the modern praise music movement led by Calvary Chapel/ Maranatha music (and Integrity, Vineyard/ Mercy, Hillsong, etc). But TWI never developed this, because VPW made TWI focus on himself instead of on Jesus Christ, who inspires praise music.
Something Thomas wrote in another thread inspired me to watch the YouTube video of Hillsong doing How Great is our God. I remember how TWI discouraged expressing emotions(other than anger) and how much they discouraged certain ways we praise. At least when I was involved....there was never any real worship that I can remember....it was all manifestations. I really don't know what we were doing. It was so empty. We mocked people who raised hands...and if I remember correctly...we thought it was opening ones self up to "devil spirits". How do you have an emotional relationship with Jesus...if you have to control, direct, or deny every emotion...again anger was the exception.
This would have offended many of us while in TWI .
some notes about how hymns lyrics and tunes work...
lyrics are just poems, and many authors are poets, not music composers. When matching lyrics to tunes, you count the number of syllables in each phrase.
Amazing Grace, for instance, is 8-6-8-6 . "amazing grace, how sweet the sound (8), which saved a wretch like me (6), I once was lost but now I'm found (8) was blind but now I see (6)." This sequence was called "common meter" because it was a common lyric meter. There are lots of hymn lyrics written in this meter, and lots of tunes written in this meter. Song leaders and pastors did- and still do (as I do)- freely mix and match tunes and words to find a match that the people know and like. Sometimes a poem sat mostly unused for literally 50-100 years until a tune came along that helped it become popular.
Writing a new lyric/song in any commonly-used meter is an easy way to introduce it to a congregation- just use a tune they already know. I've tried my hand at writing new verses now and again, with mixed results, because I'm not by nature a poet.
Fascinating! I never knew this, thanks! What do you think of the new verse that Chris Tomlin wrote to Amazing Grace? He changes the meter as you probably know.
Chris took the tune New Britain, gave it a 4/4 rock beat and added a chorus/refrain which is not part of the original hymn. He did the same with When I survey the Wondrous Cross, text by Issac Watts, tune is Hamburg by Lowell Mason. Tomlin and Jesse Reeves added a refrain(both text and tune) and retitled it The Wonderful Cross.
Recasting old hymns seems to be pretty popular, as is interweaving on old hymn with a new praise song into one. There are some choir books in which every selection is constructed this way. The practice honors, and lets people enjoy, both old and new.
When we talked about this one day, my daughter had an interesting comment.... she thought that many people today are exposed to old hymns only in this remodeled format, and so miss the richness of the hymns in their original forms.
I find it interesting that quite a few people (including some of my daughters) in their 20s are going "back" to traditional hymns and liturgies after knowing only praise music (or spending several of their young adult years in popular "praise band" type worship). There are many valuable things in traditional worship.
TWI always slammed "tradition," not realizing its positive elements. Of course, an irony is that TWI never experienced any contemporary worship or praise songs, and was stuck in a very narrow tradition of its own.
John, on Amazing Grace(My chains are gone, I am set free) and O the Wonderful Cross includes the words "that I may die" as the refrain to When I survey the Wondrous Cross(actually prefer the anthem by Gilbert Martin).
Final post: Back in 1975, I re-wrote some hymn texts to fit into TWI's theology such as Built on the Rock the church shall stand; The church's 1 foundation is Jesus Christ our Lord, we are the new creation by spirit and the word(Bible/Holy Scripture); Spread, o spread God's mighty word, spread the kingdom of our God; just to name a few of them. Sent a copy to Wierwille, received a reply thanking me and that with the next edition of Singing Along The Way that they might be included. Proably after reading it, he most likely threw it in the trash.
Interesting thread. Frankly, I miss singing so many of those songs from the Sing Along The Way song books. My wife and I go to this church where they do what is called "praise singing", and I can't stand it. They have a little band up front, amplified of course, but, they don't perform for us, they play and we are supposed to sing with them. Well, that's kinda neat and all, but, the band is loud enough that you really cannot hear the crowd in church singing very loudly. The voices are encroached upon by the band. Plus, they have an overhead tv monitor for us to read doing the "follow the bouncing ball thing" like as in karaoke with the highlighted words. Personally, I like to hear the peoples' voices being the main event when singing with the Believers. And really, so many of the songs just seem boring to me with their modern "groovyness". But that's just me. The other thing they do though, which drives me nuts is that they keep repeating the last verse or chorus over and over and over as the holy hands come up, and I'm like Dude! Let's just finish this song cuz maybe the next one will be better! But no, on it goes.
And really, I miss songs like "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" (written by Martin Luther), In The Garden, The Old Rugged Cross, Rise Up Oh Men Of God, He lives, My God And I, The Battle Hymn Of The Republic, At Calvary, singing Psalm 100 straight out of the Bible, and then all the little "show tunes" as I called them like, Got any Rivers, Thank You Lord,Tell It Again, and oh! One of my very favorites: "Tell Me Why". And one more although there are still many many more in my Sing Along The Way book. I always loved "Oh For A Thousand Tongues To Sing". I mean, I loved those songs, and I loved to break into harmonies with my wife and kids who are all very good singers. In fact, when I was in the Corps, I used to position myself at meetings near or next to this one guy who loved to sing, and we would put out some sweet harmonies! We'd grin from ear to ear when hitting it right. For me, music and singing is my idea of fun. From time to time to this day, when we get all four kids together, we'll get out the song books and just sit in the living room and sing 'em. My youngest is fifteen, my oldest, twenty six.
Actually, we ended up with about fifteen song books that are just like Sing Along The Way, but they are called: "Make A Joyful Noise (unto the Lord)". I guess it is some bootleg knock off we picked up when involved with exWay splinter groups which we are no longer involved with.
I don't view this new "praise singing" thing as wrong, or "off", it's just that it's not appealing to me, and if there's going to be a band up front, I say let her rip and we'll sit back and enjoy some tunes while you rock stars up front play for us. But, that's just me, and my different taste is all. I am happy that they all like it. So, now that I have it down as to when they finish the "praise aspect" of the service, I just don't go until they are finished with it. Then, I will sit through the sermon or teaching or whatever they call it, and then leave after that's over but before they start that praise singing again. Hopefully they are simply happy that I come to hear the Bible. I don't really care what they think.
I don't buy into the "repetition thing was meant to brainwash us" scenario though. There were more than enough songs in there for as much variety as needed in a one and a half hour fellowship. I never ran a twig longer than 45 minutes, so, we never sang that many songs per meeting when I ran them. And some of the songs in that song book I don't think I have ever sung yet. There are 141 songs in my "Sing Along The Way "knockoff...
Clay, hope you read the entire thread. We do 2 services at Holy Cross Lutheran. Early service is praise style with rock, pop, jazz, Country/Western-Bluegrass, with hispanic and native african thrown in adds variety. the later worship service is more typical European, organ based hymnody and more structured. When doing Contemporary, we use the 3 year revised common lectionary with suggestions from Sundays and Seasons from Augsburg/Fortress, and Prepare from Abingdon/Cokesbury. You may also want to look at my other thread Way Musicians and comparison of styles from secular and CCM artists and styles/genres.
Interesting thread. Frankly, I miss singing so many of those songs from the Sing Along The Way song books. My wife and I go to this church where they do what is called "praise singing", and I can't stand it. They have a little band up front, amplified of course, but, they don't perform for us, they play and we are supposed to sing with them. Well, that's kinda neat and all, but, the band is loud enough that you really cannot hear the crowd in church singing very loudly. The voices are encroached upon by the band. Plus, they have an overhead tv monitor for us to read doing the "follow the bouncing ball thing" like as in karaoke with the highlighted words. Personally, I like to hear the peoples' voices being the main event when singing with the Believers. And really, so many of the songs just seem boring to me with their modern "groovyness". But that's just me. The other thing they do though, which drives me nuts is that they keep repeating the last verse or chorus over and over and over as the holy hands come up, and I'm like Dude! Let's just finish this song cuz maybe the next one will be better! But no, on it goes.
I'm with you, Clay. And you're right, there's nothing wrong with it. That's the lastest "style" though. I like some of those songs, some I don't. I miss the choirs and pipe organs but these young guys probably wouldn't go for that. What drives me up a wall is when someone chooses to jazz up one of the traditionals, like "How Great Thou Art". The song is just fine the way it is, thank you very much. If you don't like the tune, write another song, don't ruin this one. Again, that's just my taste and some of those old hymns have blessed me a lot over the years.
I fear that I'm turning into my parents. I remember well the Beatles and my parents sneering at their "long hair".
One last thing. It blessed me to hear that sometimes your family gets together and sings some of those old songs. That is so cool. Sounds like you've got a great family.
I'm with you, Clay. And you're right, there's nothing wrong with it. That's the lastest "style" though. I like some of those songs, some I don't. I miss the choirs and pipe organs but these young guys probably wouldn't go for that. What drives me up a wall is when someone chooses to jazz up one of the traditionals, like "How Great Thou Art". The song is just fine the way it is, thank you very much. If you don't like the tune, write another song, don't ruin this one. Again, that's just my taste and some of those old hymns have blessed me a lot over the years.
I fear that I'm turning into my parents. I remember well the Beatles and my parents sneering at their "long hair".
One last thing. It blessed me to hear that sometimes your family gets together and sings some of those old songs. That is so cool. Sounds like you've got a great family.
BA, hate to throw water but Good Seed did a C&W version of How Great Thou Art, plus I have a blues version from a Lutheran group called Bread for the Journey; Black gospel,and hard rock. btw the direct English version from the Swedish starts of O Mighty God.
BA, hate to throw water but Good Seed did a C&W version of How Great Thou Art, plus I have a blues version from a Lutheran group called Bread for the Journey; Black gospel,and hard rock. btw the direct English version from the Swedish starts of O Mighty God.
First of all, it's a matter of my personal taste. I hope you don't think I was trying to say it was a bad thing. Good Seed, as I recall, didn't change the melody or the basic structure of the song. Just kind of "country-fied" it if my memory serves me correctly. As a matter of fact, Good Seed's version was the first one I heard. I haven't heard the other versions you referred to. The one I heard was from another contemporary group. Good kids, but they completely changed the structure. They, and some of the other young guys seem to like it so I guess it's cool. Personally I started to bang my head into the chair in front of me going, "why, why, why?" Then again, I have a lot of issues.
Why don't you go to the Pastor or to the praise band and tell them you would like to sing some of those songs? I have to admit, I rolled my eyes when I read you purposely missed the "praise aspect" of a church service. Maybe it was the added quotation marks, but you actually should be comfortable and enjoy the entire service. They should, in some way, accommodate people who like to sing in a more traditional style. We have two services....the earlier one has the more traditional hymns.
Your desire to sing praises, from your heart to the Lord with the brethren, is obviously a need in your life.... I encourage you to speak up. I would hope they listen to your needs.
My kid is usually in whatever praise band is around...so I was forced to stay at first. I am a mom. I wasn't always comfortable though...it took me awhile. The first time we sang the simple song "He knows My Name" and I really heard the lyrics....it felt like God was reaching out to me. I was pretty undone.
I hope you get to speak to whoever does the songs at the church and tell them what you need.
Here....Oh For A Thousand Tongues To Sing was always one of my favorites too.
Personally, I like to hear the peoples' voices being the main event when singing with the Believers. And really, so many of the songs just seem boring to me with their modern "groovyness".
I can appreciate that some people like bands but its not for me either...it often seems like too much of a "show" for my personal tastes.
I do like to sing with others and have missed that. I may have mentioned it earlier in this thread but Ive taken up going to community Sacred Harp sings which they've been doing in my neck of the woods for a few hundred years.
There are some of the same songs that were in the TWI songbook, but mostly songs from the 18th and 19th century sung in the style of that time period..It some ways it sounds primitive(there definitely isn't that modern 'grooviness' to contend with)but at the same time it can be very uplifting, haunting and at times profound.
It takes a few times to get the hang of it, but if you like to sing, they are really interesting and unique songs to hear and sing with others.
Right now this type of singing is in a revival period and there are sings in every state, including Alaska.
Some people love it, some people hate it but if you have an inclination toward the sound at all, and like to sing, imo it is worth checking out.
Thanks MStar, Geisha, and Broken Arrow! And, thank you too Thomas for starting this thread. And like BA said, I don't think the praise singing thing is a bad thing, it's just "not my cup of tea" as the Brits would say. And hey, it's way way better than "Christian Metal", whatever the heck THAT is!
That's another pet peeve of mine: Trying to attract kids to Christianity by imitating seriously worldly music and putting Christian words to it. But, I guess then, Donnie Fugit's "Blue Suede Bible" would then be considered the same. Oh well, I guess it's like somebody here said; "I am becoming my parents". Hah! Who was that? Was that you Broken Arrow?
The modern Praise and Worship music - there's a lot of it I like. I lot of it is basic pop music, heard one, you've heard a dozen just like it. I was involved in a Christian music forum for a year or so and found that many of the songs being written are really just turns of the same old phrase....."C - G - A minor F.........throw in a chorus of C - Bb - F C - D - F9 and repeat - different keys but kinda same. That particular verse progression has been used incessantly in pop music the last 10 years or so - I guess because it always works. But it's been done, to say the least.
Lyrics? Dunno - depends. A lot of it seems over wrought hand wringing stuff but again - I'm more or less okay with a lot of it. Can't think of anything in particular - Hillsongs always does good stuff, Lincoln Brewster's a local Cali guy that does nice stuff. It's interesting though, Christian P and W has definitely developed into a market slice.
The church we go to sometimes has some great musicians and they do good stuff, some standard P and W kinda things and others that are more original sounding. Jack Blades (Night Ranger and other stuff) is a local and he's done some tunes, he's written some very heart felt Christian music that I like that's he's done. The band leader's a very good musician as are the others, pianist, organist, bass player - real good bass players. One of their organists has become a friend and we got him into NAMM last year on my company card One of the guys from the CC&R reformed band subs in, good guy and killer guitarist. They often sub in for each other and the lineup moves around from week to week. They're largely local working musicians and do this stuff as a gig, and they're just good people all around.
But - Clayjay - I may actually feel a little like you - when we first began going I liked the music, electric pop and rock stuff, some older sounding standards done well but mostly rock. But after a few services - I had to ask "what if someone doesn't like rock?" Because that's largely what they play. These guys can play some serious stuff - the music at the services is the P and W style pop/rock, with some variations thrown in.
I agree- buzz the pastor on this and let your "requests be made known". I've written the pastor at this one and passed on my thoughts several times. He's definitely looking to do a more modern colloquial sound in the music but leaves most of that up to the people that play and sing. He has tried some other types of music in certain services. There's a general trend they're following - that's fine. I don't really go for the music to be honest but I do appreciate what they've done. It's not easy to do anything, whatever it is.
The modern Praise and Worship music - there's a lot of it I like. I lot of it is basic pop music, heard one, you've heard a dozen just like it. I was involved in a Christian music forum for a year or so and found that many of the songs being written are really just turns of the same old phrase....."C - G - A minor F.........throw in a chorus of C - Bb - F C - D - F9 and repeat - different keys but kinda same. That particular verse progression has been used incessantly in pop music the last 10 years or so - I guess because it always works. But it's been done, to say the least.
Lyrics? Dunno - depends. A lot of it seems over wrought hand wringing stuff but again - I'm more or less okay with a lot of it. Can't think of anything in particular - Hillsongs always does good stuff, Lincoln Brewster's a local Cali guy that does nice stuff. It's interesting though, Christian P and W has definitely developed into a market slice.
The church we go to sometimes has some great musicians and they do good stuff, some standard P and W kinda things and others that are more original sounding. Jack Blades (Night Ranger and other stuff) is a local and he's done some tunes, he's written some very heart felt Christian music that I like that's he's done. The band leader's a very good musician as are the others, pianist, organist, bass player - real good bass players. One of their organists has become a friend and we got him into NAMM last year on my company card One of the guys from the CC&R reformed band subs in, good guy and killer guitarist. They often sub in for each other and the lineup moves around from week to week. They're largely local working musicians and do this stuff as a gig, and they're just good people all around.
But - Clayjay - I may actually feel a little like you - when we first began going I liked the music, electric pop and rock stuff, some older sounding standards done well but mostly rock. But after a few services - I had to ask "what if someone doesn't like rock?" Because that's largely what they play. These guys can play some serious stuff - the music at the services is the P and W style pop/rock, with some variations thrown in.
I agree- buzz the pastor on this and let your "requests be made known". I've written the pastor at this one and passed on my thoughts several times. He's definitely looking to do a more modern colloquial sound in the music but leaves most of that up to the people that play and sing. He has tried some other types of music in certain services. There's a general trend they're following - that's fine. I don't really go for the music to be honest but I do appreciate what they've done. It's not easy to do anything, whatever it is.
A good friend of mine that did contemporary praise and worship music for several years gave it up. One of the reasons was he said Ted I just got plain tired of belonging to the 7-11 club. I asked him what do you mean by 7-11 club? He replied well you do 7 verses with the same words and 11 chorus with the same words and each song lasts between 7 and 11 minutes.
The church my wife and I attend pretty much follows that 7-11 format. I enjoy some of the tunes but wish the musicians could be a little more versatile.As they are playing I look around at the congregation and at least 60% are over fifty years old.It seems to me they don't count as to the type of music that's played in the service.I have spoken out on this but to no avail.
I do some nursing home and assisted living gigs and always include some good old fashioned sing along's Sometimes I use Thank You Dorthy Thank You Rhoda tracks that I have and as I do so most everyone in the room knows every word by heart.
One style of gospel music where there is still a strong message story line will be found in country gospel,new and old I perform several in that style and most seem to enjoy it.
Contemporary praise and worship is the thing these days and far as I can see it's here to stay so likwe it or not Ted get used to it.Amen and Amen
Hey Ted! You'd dig the guys at this church - they're play-ahs.
(with the Tommy Castro Band here) covers their keyboards sometimes for them, and he's just the greatest guy, coolest head and can really really play. He worked with Skip at the yearly Merle Saunders Birthday bash's, Carlene Carter's band on the road and a local Petty cover band plus lots of other stuff. Very versatile.
Yeah this pastor's a good guy. But if the music's not mixed up a little, it's too boring, too much of the same thing. And despite all those years in J.N. - well, some things never change I guess. I've never been one for a lot of "come on everybody - clap your hands and let's praise the Lord!" and if they don't something must be wrong. Nothing's wrong - clap if you want to, don't if you don't. I dunno - but some people do like it and there are songs where it all comes together. It's okay but clearly - if you really wanted to get down with it you have to pull the plug and use all the tools you've got. I'm not sure if Sunday morning is the time for that. But then I remember the "Church of the Ephesians" in Berkeley years ago - Edwin Hawkins old stomping grounds. THAT was worth the trip, any time of the day!
Speaking of wreaking havoc on ol' gospel hymns, the best versions I remember of some of your stuff was in the BRC Basement our first year back there. Fun stuff. I remember I found an old Supro tube amp, little 10 watt-er, in the barn and Unc-a Harry said take it - think it was one of their original "P.A" amps. I found another one of them, same model, years ago at a Flea Market. Blew up. But I remember that had some funky tone turned up all the way. I still keep my eye out for them if I ever run across another one I'm going to scarf it up.
Oh well, I guess it's like somebody here said; "I am becoming my parents". Hah! Who was that? Was that you Broken Arrow?
Yep! That was me!
Socks and Ted-I go to a large church . A few years ago our Senior Pastor wanted the church to be more culturally relevant and he wanted to reach out to people of all races. So we have the "Integrity Praise/Hosanna" and "Vineyard Music" songs that comprise a lot of modern Christian contemporary music. We also have Gospel, including Black Gospel, and we sing a few of the old hymns now and again.
While at first hearing someone might think that's too much of a hodge-podge to be effective, it works rather well. They don't try to do it all at one particular service.
I know you are all talking "music"...and I am a musician. I have been in several praise and worship teams and now am not.
In the years I was, the understanding I got from them is you sing over and over again to invoke the presence of God and to welcome the Holy spirit. Your singing actually brings the spirit of God to the service. A couple of the worship leaders said it was their job to lead the people into the presence of God and into the throne of God. One place I went to was really into that concept and it got very uncomfortable in that place and I just could not do it any more. I've seen people, as people have said, get a "dose" of the holy spirit of God and it affects them.
I've had many experiences in this and decided it is not for me. That there is something that happens spiritually when the praise and worship music goes on and on and on in repetition that raises all kinds of red flags for me. Give me the "Sing Along the Way".
Each to his own though, if you like it (praise and worship) and enjoy it and it enriches your relationship with God....keep listening and singing.
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johnj
no doubt John Newton would have been mad if he'd seen VPW's rewrite of his lyrics of Amazing Grace. Newton understood how deeply sin is in us all, something VPW never wanted to admit... even though there were thousands of women (and men)who would have been able to expose it in him.
Newton's lyrics are in the public domain, and the tune. Oddly enough, though, people can still copyright certain music arrangements which use the melody of it or any old tune. I think doing silly stuff like singing Amazing Grace to the tune of Gilligan's Island or the old Coca Cola jingle ("I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony...") was big in the 1970s, at the height of the Jesus Movement when so many young people were getting "turned on to Jesus." The only reason TWI grew was because it leached unsuspecting people away from the Jesus Movement.
The Jesus Movement spurred a great burst of worship music writing. (Christian revivals throughout history have always spurred worship renewal.) This created the modern praise music movement led by Calvary Chapel/ Maranatha music (and Integrity, Vineyard/ Mercy, Hillsong, etc). But TWI never developed this, because VPW made TWI focus on himself instead of on Jesus Christ, who inspires praise music.
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geisha779
Something Thomas wrote in another thread inspired me to watch the YouTube video of Hillsong doing How Great is our God. I remember how TWI discouraged expressing emotions(other than anger) and how much they discouraged certain ways we praise. At least when I was involved....there was never any real worship that I can remember....it was all manifestations. I really don't know what we were doing. It was so empty. We mocked people who raised hands...and if I remember correctly...we thought it was opening ones self up to "devil spirits". How do you have an emotional relationship with Jesus...if you have to control, direct, or deny every emotion...again anger was the exception.
This would have offended many of us while in TWI .
<iframe title="YouTube video player" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/doiiH2FkIO8" allowfullscreen="" width="480" frameborder="0" height="390"></iframe>
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Twinky
TWI wouldn't like the zippy song.
Nor the enthusiasm of the performers.
Nor the enthusiasm of the audience.
And especially not the huge number of people there...
...enjoying themselves.
How great is our God - to rescue us from all that meanness of heart.
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Broken Arrow
Fascinating! I never knew this, thanks! What do you think of the new verse that Chris Tomlin wrote to Amazing Grace? He changes the meter as you probably know.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Chris took the tune New Britain, gave it a 4/4 rock beat and added a chorus/refrain which is not part of the original hymn. He did the same with When I survey the Wondrous Cross, text by Issac Watts, tune is Hamburg by Lowell Mason. Tomlin and Jesse Reeves added a refrain(both text and tune) and retitled it The Wonderful Cross.
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Broken Arrow
Right. I was just wondering what you thought about it if anything.
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johnj
I don't recall Chris Tomlin's version off hand.
Recasting old hymns seems to be pretty popular, as is interweaving on old hymn with a new praise song into one. There are some choir books in which every selection is constructed this way. The practice honors, and lets people enjoy, both old and new.
When we talked about this one day, my daughter had an interesting comment.... she thought that many people today are exposed to old hymns only in this remodeled format, and so miss the richness of the hymns in their original forms.
I find it interesting that quite a few people (including some of my daughters) in their 20s are going "back" to traditional hymns and liturgies after knowing only praise music (or spending several of their young adult years in popular "praise band" type worship). There are many valuable things in traditional worship.
TWI always slammed "tradition," not realizing its positive elements. Of course, an irony is that TWI never experienced any contemporary worship or praise songs, and was stuck in a very narrow tradition of its own.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
John, on Amazing Grace(My chains are gone, I am set free) and O the Wonderful Cross includes the words "that I may die" as the refrain to When I survey the Wondrous Cross(actually prefer the anthem by Gilbert Martin).
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
He also did Gumby and Pokey
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Final post: Back in 1975, I re-wrote some hymn texts to fit into TWI's theology such as Built on the Rock the church shall stand; The church's 1 foundation is Jesus Christ our Lord, we are the new creation by spirit and the word(Bible/Holy Scripture); Spread, o spread God's mighty word, spread the kingdom of our God; just to name a few of them. Sent a copy to Wierwille, received a reply thanking me and that with the next edition of Singing Along The Way that they might be included. Proably after reading it, he most likely threw it in the trash.
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ClayJay
Interesting thread. Frankly, I miss singing so many of those songs from the Sing Along The Way song books. My wife and I go to this church where they do what is called "praise singing", and I can't stand it. They have a little band up front, amplified of course, but, they don't perform for us, they play and we are supposed to sing with them. Well, that's kinda neat and all, but, the band is loud enough that you really cannot hear the crowd in church singing very loudly. The voices are encroached upon by the band. Plus, they have an overhead tv monitor for us to read doing the "follow the bouncing ball thing" like as in karaoke with the highlighted words. Personally, I like to hear the peoples' voices being the main event when singing with the Believers. And really, so many of the songs just seem boring to me with their modern "groovyness". But that's just me. The other thing they do though, which drives me nuts is that they keep repeating the last verse or chorus over and over and over as the holy hands come up, and I'm like Dude! Let's just finish this song cuz maybe the next one will be better! But no, on it goes.
And really, I miss songs like "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" (written by Martin Luther), In The Garden, The Old Rugged Cross, Rise Up Oh Men Of God, He lives, My God And I, The Battle Hymn Of The Republic, At Calvary, singing Psalm 100 straight out of the Bible, and then all the little "show tunes" as I called them like, Got any Rivers, Thank You Lord,Tell It Again, and oh! One of my very favorites: "Tell Me Why". And one more although there are still many many more in my Sing Along The Way book. I always loved "Oh For A Thousand Tongues To Sing". I mean, I loved those songs, and I loved to break into harmonies with my wife and kids who are all very good singers. In fact, when I was in the Corps, I used to position myself at meetings near or next to this one guy who loved to sing, and we would put out some sweet harmonies! We'd grin from ear to ear when hitting it right. For me, music and singing is my idea of fun. From time to time to this day, when we get all four kids together, we'll get out the song books and just sit in the living room and sing 'em. My youngest is fifteen, my oldest, twenty six.
Actually, we ended up with about fifteen song books that are just like Sing Along The Way, but they are called: "Make A Joyful Noise (unto the Lord)". I guess it is some bootleg knock off we picked up when involved with exWay splinter groups which we are no longer involved with.
I don't view this new "praise singing" thing as wrong, or "off", it's just that it's not appealing to me, and if there's going to be a band up front, I say let her rip and we'll sit back and enjoy some tunes while you rock stars up front play for us. But, that's just me, and my different taste is all. I am happy that they all like it. So, now that I have it down as to when they finish the "praise aspect" of the service, I just don't go until they are finished with it. Then, I will sit through the sermon or teaching or whatever they call it, and then leave after that's over but before they start that praise singing again. Hopefully they are simply happy that I come to hear the Bible. I don't really care what they think.
I don't buy into the "repetition thing was meant to brainwash us" scenario though. There were more than enough songs in there for as much variety as needed in a one and a half hour fellowship. I never ran a twig longer than 45 minutes, so, we never sang that many songs per meeting when I ran them. And some of the songs in that song book I don't think I have ever sung yet. There are 141 songs in my "Sing Along The Way "knockoff...
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Clay, hope you read the entire thread. We do 2 services at Holy Cross Lutheran. Early service is praise style with rock, pop, jazz, Country/Western-Bluegrass, with hispanic and native african thrown in adds variety. the later worship service is more typical European, organ based hymnody and more structured. When doing Contemporary, we use the 3 year revised common lectionary with suggestions from Sundays and Seasons from Augsburg/Fortress, and Prepare from Abingdon/Cokesbury. You may also want to look at my other thread Way Musicians and comparison of styles from secular and CCM artists and styles/genres.
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Broken Arrow
I'm with you, Clay. And you're right, there's nothing wrong with it. That's the lastest "style" though. I like some of those songs, some I don't. I miss the choirs and pipe organs but these young guys probably wouldn't go for that. What drives me up a wall is when someone chooses to jazz up one of the traditionals, like "How Great Thou Art". The song is just fine the way it is, thank you very much. If you don't like the tune, write another song, don't ruin this one. Again, that's just my taste and some of those old hymns have blessed me a lot over the years.
I fear that I'm turning into my parents. I remember well the Beatles and my parents sneering at their "long hair".
One last thing. It blessed me to hear that sometimes your family gets together and sings some of those old songs. That is so cool. Sounds like you've got a great family.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
BA, hate to throw water but Good Seed did a C&W version of How Great Thou Art, plus I have a blues version from a Lutheran group called Bread for the Journey; Black gospel,and hard rock. btw the direct English version from the Swedish starts of O Mighty God.
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Broken Arrow
First of all, it's a matter of my personal taste. I hope you don't think I was trying to say it was a bad thing. Good Seed, as I recall, didn't change the melody or the basic structure of the song. Just kind of "country-fied" it if my memory serves me correctly. As a matter of fact, Good Seed's version was the first one I heard. I haven't heard the other versions you referred to. The one I heard was from another contemporary group. Good kids, but they completely changed the structure. They, and some of the other young guys seem to like it so I guess it's cool. Personally I started to bang my head into the chair in front of me going, "why, why, why?" Then again, I have a lot of issues.
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geisha779
ClayJay,
Why don't you go to the Pastor or to the praise band and tell them you would like to sing some of those songs? I have to admit, I rolled my eyes when I read you purposely missed the "praise aspect" of a church service. Maybe it was the added quotation marks, but you actually should be comfortable and enjoy the entire service. They should, in some way, accommodate people who like to sing in a more traditional style. We have two services....the earlier one has the more traditional hymns.
Your desire to sing praises, from your heart to the Lord with the brethren, is obviously a need in your life.... I encourage you to speak up. I would hope they listen to your needs.
My kid is usually in whatever praise band is around...so I was forced to stay at first. I am a mom. I wasn't always comfortable though...it took me awhile. The first time we sang the simple song "He knows My Name" and I really heard the lyrics....it felt like God was reaching out to me. I was pretty undone.
I hope you get to speak to whoever does the songs at the church and tell them what you need.
Here....Oh For A Thousand Tongues To Sing was always one of my favorites too.
<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/igvtsUfD5xM" allowfullscreen="" width="425" frameborder="0" height="349"></iframe>
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mstar1
I can appreciate that some people like bands but its not for me either...it often seems like too much of a "show" for my personal tastes.
I do like to sing with others and have missed that. I may have mentioned it earlier in this thread but Ive taken up going to community Sacred Harp sings which they've been doing in my neck of the woods for a few hundred years.
There are some of the same songs that were in the TWI songbook, but mostly songs from the 18th and 19th century sung in the style of that time period..It some ways it sounds primitive(there definitely isn't that modern 'grooviness' to contend with)but at the same time it can be very uplifting, haunting and at times profound.
It takes a few times to get the hang of it, but if you like to sing, they are really interesting and unique songs to hear and sing with others.
Right now this type of singing is in a revival period and there are sings in every state, including Alaska.
Some people love it, some people hate it but if you have an inclination toward the sound at all, and like to sing, imo it is worth checking out.
Here's a documentary trailer:
<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/YHUfHNEZDPc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
youtube also has a billion videos of songs under sacred harp if you're interested.
(i included this because the second song was written right in geisha's neighborhood in 1800)
I'll admit its got me hooked..ymmv
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ClayJay
Thanks MStar, Geisha, and Broken Arrow! And, thank you too Thomas for starting this thread. And like BA said, I don't think the praise singing thing is a bad thing, it's just "not my cup of tea" as the Brits would say. And hey, it's way way better than "Christian Metal", whatever the heck THAT is!
That's another pet peeve of mine: Trying to attract kids to Christianity by imitating seriously worldly music and putting Christian words to it. But, I guess then, Donnie Fugit's "Blue Suede Bible" would then be considered the same. Oh well, I guess it's like somebody here said; "I am becoming my parents". Hah! Who was that? Was that you Broken Arrow?
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socks
The modern Praise and Worship music - there's a lot of it I like. I lot of it is basic pop music, heard one, you've heard a dozen just like it. I was involved in a Christian music forum for a year or so and found that many of the songs being written are really just turns of the same old phrase....."C - G - A minor F.........throw in a chorus of C - Bb - F C - D - F9 and repeat - different keys but kinda same. That particular verse progression has been used incessantly in pop music the last 10 years or so - I guess because it always works. But it's been done, to say the least.
Lyrics? Dunno - depends. A lot of it seems over wrought hand wringing stuff but again - I'm more or less okay with a lot of it. Can't think of anything in particular - Hillsongs always does good stuff, Lincoln Brewster's a local Cali guy that does nice stuff. It's interesting though, Christian P and W has definitely developed into a market slice.
The church we go to sometimes has some great musicians and they do good stuff, some standard P and W kinda things and others that are more original sounding. Jack Blades (Night Ranger and other stuff) is a local and he's done some tunes, he's written some very heart felt Christian music that I like that's he's done. The band leader's a very good musician as are the others, pianist, organist, bass player - real good bass players. One of their organists has become a friend and we got him into NAMM last year on my company card One of the guys from the CC&R reformed band subs in, good guy and killer guitarist. They often sub in for each other and the lineup moves around from week to week. They're largely local working musicians and do this stuff as a gig, and they're just good people all around.
But - Clayjay - I may actually feel a little like you - when we first began going I liked the music, electric pop and rock stuff, some older sounding standards done well but mostly rock. But after a few services - I had to ask "what if someone doesn't like rock?" Because that's largely what they play. These guys can play some serious stuff - the music at the services is the P and W style pop/rock, with some variations thrown in.
I agree- buzz the pastor on this and let your "requests be made known". I've written the pastor at this one and passed on my thoughts several times. He's definitely looking to do a more modern colloquial sound in the music but leaves most of that up to the people that play and sing. He has tried some other types of music in certain services. There's a general trend they're following - that's fine. I don't really go for the music to be honest but I do appreciate what they've done. It's not easy to do anything, whatever it is.
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TED Ferrell
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TED Ferrell
Socks you got that right on.
A good friend of mine that did contemporary praise and worship music for several years gave it up. One of the reasons was he said Ted I just got plain tired of belonging to the 7-11 club. I asked him what do you mean by 7-11 club? He replied well you do 7 verses with the same words and 11 chorus with the same words and each song lasts between 7 and 11 minutes.
The church my wife and I attend pretty much follows that 7-11 format. I enjoy some of the tunes but wish the musicians could be a little more versatile.As they are playing I look around at the congregation and at least 60% are over fifty years old.It seems to me they don't count as to the type of music that's played in the service.I have spoken out on this but to no avail.
I do some nursing home and assisted living gigs and always include some good old fashioned sing along's Sometimes I use Thank You Dorthy Thank You Rhoda tracks that I have and as I do so most everyone in the room knows every word by heart.
One style of gospel music where there is still a strong message story line will be found in country gospel,new and old I perform several in that style and most seem to enjoy it.
Contemporary praise and worship is the thing these days and far as I can see it's here to stay so likwe it or not Ted get used to it.Amen and Amen
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socks
Hey Ted! You'd dig the guys at this church - they're play-ahs.
Yeah this pastor's a good guy. But if the music's not mixed up a little, it's too boring, too much of the same thing. And despite all those years in J.N. - well, some things never change I guess. I've never been one for a lot of "come on everybody - clap your hands and let's praise the Lord!" and if they don't something must be wrong. Nothing's wrong - clap if you want to, don't if you don't. I dunno - but some people do like it and there are songs where it all comes together. It's okay but clearly - if you really wanted to get down with it you have to pull the plug and use all the tools you've got. I'm not sure if Sunday morning is the time for that. But then I remember the "Church of the Ephesians" in Berkeley years ago - Edwin Hawkins old stomping grounds. THAT was worth the trip, any time of the day!
Speaking of wreaking havoc on ol' gospel hymns, the best versions I remember of some of your stuff was in the BRC Basement our first year back there. Fun stuff. I remember I found an old Supro tube amp, little 10 watt-er, in the barn and Unc-a Harry said take it - think it was one of their original "P.A" amps. I found another one of them, same model, years ago at a Flea Market. Blew up. But I remember that had some funky tone turned up all the way. I still keep my eye out for them if I ever run across another one I'm going to scarf it up.
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Broken Arrow
Yep! That was me!
Socks and Ted-I go to a large church . A few years ago our Senior Pastor wanted the church to be more culturally relevant and he wanted to reach out to people of all races. So we have the "Integrity Praise/Hosanna" and "Vineyard Music" songs that comprise a lot of modern Christian contemporary music. We also have Gospel, including Black Gospel, and we sing a few of the old hymns now and again.
While at first hearing someone might think that's too much of a hodge-podge to be effective, it works rather well. They don't try to do it all at one particular service.
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newlife
I know you are all talking "music"...and I am a musician. I have been in several praise and worship teams and now am not.
In the years I was, the understanding I got from them is you sing over and over again to invoke the presence of God and to welcome the Holy spirit. Your singing actually brings the spirit of God to the service. A couple of the worship leaders said it was their job to lead the people into the presence of God and into the throne of God. One place I went to was really into that concept and it got very uncomfortable in that place and I just could not do it any more. I've seen people, as people have said, get a "dose" of the holy spirit of God and it affects them.
I've had many experiences in this and decided it is not for me. That there is something that happens spiritually when the praise and worship music goes on and on and on in repetition that raises all kinds of red flags for me. Give me the "Sing Along the Way".
Each to his own though, if you like it (praise and worship) and enjoy it and it enriches your relationship with God....keep listening and singing.
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