been checking out songbooks from TWI, CFFM, S&TF, CR&F- not more than 100 hymns, maybe 125. Why so few when hymnals then had at least 300-400 and now are usually close to 1,000 with paperback supplements, and why no music(piano/organ scores)? Most of them are found in Hymns for the Family of God, Celebration Hymnal, Renew:Hymnas and Songs for Blended Worship, not counting denominational hymnals from the 1950's up to the present. You mean only Rhoda and Dorothy had the only keyboard accompliments, but no one else was allowed this? The above were only lyrics, but gave no authors nor composers, or tunes. So what gives? Anyone know the answer to this?
Because TWI wants to change the words and copywrite laws prohibit that, and TWI doesn't want to spend the money it takes to get permission?
been checking out songbooks from TWI, CFFM, S&TF, CR&F- not more than 100 hymns, maybe 125. Why so few when hymnals then had at least 300-400 and now are usually close to 1,000 with paperback supplements, and why no music(piano/organ scores)? Most of them are found in Hymns for the Family of God, Celebration Hymnal, Renew:Hymnas and Songs for Blended Worship, not counting denominational hymnals from the 1950's up to the present. You mean only Rhoda and Dorothy had the only keyboard accompliments, but no one else was allowed this? The above were only lyrics, but gave no authors nor composers, or tunes. So what gives? Anyone know the answer to this?
Money.. It's all about the money..
And TWI wasn't willing to shell any of it out just so we could sing those songs that TWI felt needed reworded anyways.. Sure, they paid some money out once they realized they were committing copyright infringement with printing all those early song books with other people's copyrighted works. And once they realized that was going to cost them money. All the songs got scaled back and no more extras unless TWI held the rights. And to print the actual scores, why that would cost even more $$....
When I was a WOW, someone in leadership told me that music sinks right into the unconscious.
Why the rewording? Quick indoctrination, not only through music, but also through repitition.
As far as copyright infringement goes: Musical copyright laws must be more rigid than text copyright laws, because Saint Vic never nseemed to worry about whose text he played fast and loose with.
As far as copyright infringement goes: Musical copyright laws must be more rigid than text copyright laws, because Saint Vic never nseemed to worry about whose text he played fast and loose with.
Ol Vic didn't care about the songs either.. It took the copyright holders getting a hold of TWI and asking for $$ that set them straight.. Too bad all the guys Vic stole his PFAL material from didn't do the same..
When they came out with the brown one, we were instructed to destroy the blue one, for legal purposes I'm sure. I continued to see blue books for years.
For awhile, the limb leader in CT was singing some song to the tune of 'Take me out to the Ballgame"-It turned into a huge reproof from HQ about singing the correct tune, and not being such a rebel.
I could only scratch my head , wondering why they changed "How Firm a Foundation" to the tune of 'Oh Come all ye Faithful"-making it the 'way corps anthem'.
No big. I'm just trying to hit 3000 posts before the end, for no good reason.
For awhile, the limb leader in CT was singing some song to the tune of 'Take me out to the Ballgame"-It turned into a huge reproof from HQ about singing the correct tune, and not being such a rebel.
I could only scratch my head , wondering why they changed "How Firm a Foundation" to the tune of 'Oh Come all ye Faithful"-making it the 'way corps anthem'.
Good thing he didn't choose Happy Birthday to You. That's copyrighted.
When they came out with the brown one, we were instructed to destroy the blue one, for legal purposes I'm sure. I continued to see blue books for years.
I remember that much, vividly. I think it was in the early 1980s but I could be wrong on the date.
And TWI wasn't willing to shell any of it out just so we could sing those songs that TWI felt needed reworded anyways.. Sure, they paid some money out once they realized they were committing copyright infringement with printing all those early song books with other people's copyrighted works. And once they realized that was going to cost them money. All the songs got scaled back and no more extras unless TWI held the rights. And to print the actual scores, why that would cost even more $$....
At least TWI was consistant, the entire organization was built on take whatever you want and credit and pay nobody.
The PFAL classes were built that way, it makes sense that the songbooks would be just as halfbaked as everything else
Let's see, Ham. If you averaged 50 words per post, in 12,000 posts you'd have written the 600,000 words, divide that by the average amount of words per page, 250, and you have written 2,400 pages or the equivalent of about five paperback novels.
When they came out with the brown one, we were instructed to destroy the blue one, for legal purposes I'm sure. I continued to see blue books for years.
For awhile, the limb leader in CT was singing some song to the tune of 'Take me out to the Ballgame"-It turned into a huge reproof from HQ about singing the correct tune, and not being such a rebel.
I could only scratch my head , wondering why they changed "How Firm a Foundation" to the tune of 'Oh Come all ye Faithful"-making it the 'way corps anthem'.
No big. I'm just trying to hit 3000 posts before the end, for no good reason.
I don't think it was TWI that changed the words. It was fairly common in the 19th century for songwriters to write a song and use an existing song as a tune. In our time we would consider that an infringement, but not in those days. For example, I understand the "Star Spangled Banner" was written to the tune of a British song. Waysider might know more about this practice than than I do.
Ol Vic didn't care about the songs either.. It took the copyright holders getting a hold of TWI and asking for $$ that set them straight.. Too bad all the guys Vic stole his PFAL material from didn't do the same..
I heard from somewhere that Bill Gaither was one of the people that got upset one of his songs was being used without his permission (The Family of God). Does anyone know if that's really true?
TWI did change whatever words didnt fit in with Wierwiellism...Amazing Grace...A Mighty Fortress..other well known songs had words changed to suit the biblical inaccuracies that TWI held.
Its true enough that songs often take their melodies and rhythms from other songs but almost in all places the original writers and composers are still credited somewhere up near the title
TWI stayed true to its form in its songbooks and never credited anyone that I remember.
It's been a common practice for centuries to interchange melodies and lyrics of songs. The words in the blue songbook, however, were intentionally changed to reflect Way doctrine. (Or as it was stated at the time, "to make them more accurate with the rightly divided Word.") One glaring example is the way Amazing Grace was changed to eliminate the phrase "a wretch like me". There was even a teaching (Possibly a Sunday Night Service) that made reference to the reason for this particular change. "Seated in the heavenlies" and "before the foundations of the world" and other such scriptures were used to show how the original phrase was "off". I don't remember much of the minute specifics. The brown songbook, on the other hand, was specifically changed because of conflicts with "permission of usage" problems. This explanation was given to me by someone who was very tight with the uppermost level of management and had been involved with the ministry since the 1950s. Out of respect for him, I won't use his name here.
Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to defend TWI and their practice of changing words. I was explaining that I didn't think TWI was the group that invented the words to "How Firm a Foundation". Then again, maybe they did. I really don't know. But it is plausible that someone else wrote those words and simply put it to the tune we recognize as a Christmas Carol and TWI just printed that.
Waysider, not to be nit-picky (which means I'm going to be nit-picky), but the song where the words were changed from a "wretch like me" was "Amazing Grace", not "How Great Thou Art".
Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to defend TWI and their practice of changing words. I was explaining that I didn't think TWI was the group that invented the words to "How Firm a Foundation". Then again, maybe they did. I really don't know. But it is plausible that someone else wrote those words and simply put it to the tune we recognize as a Christmas Carol and TWI just printed that.
Waysider, not to be nit-picky (which means I'm going to be nit-picky), but the song where the words were changed from a "wretch like me" was "Amazing Grace", not "How Great Thou Art".
Yeah, I guess I posted that too fast. I went back and edited it. Thanks for catching that.
Always loved "I Saw The Light" - great Hank tune, waysider!
First time early the wif' and I heard and sang "Camping in Canaan's Land" we about fell over laughing. Enjoyed singing it, but the image and the sound of the words, "camping in Canaan's land" just seemed funny. Giggle fests for awhile there.
Singing together with other folks and all those older hymns was fun, still is at times. They're stately, thoughtful, poignant at times, loud declarations at others.
Half the lyrics on the 'Net are wrong and the other half are linked to those. Not all I guess but so much of the lyrics are close but no cigar.
The Way changed lyrics to match the doctrine and theology. Over the years others were written but take it from me, it's hard to write and arrange something like an "Amazing Grace". Simple as it is, it's killah. The use of the basic lyrics has been rewritten 1000's of times into other similar songs as the thought and sentiment is so universal but the original still stands as is as a great song.
Others have been done though as the years progress, IMO anyway. There's some great tunes coming out over the last 20-30 years. Time will sift the ones that people hold on to and love.
The lyric changing never stuck in my craw, still doesn't but it probably should have. That's just me but then I'm not reprinting song books with the news ones.
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Broken Arrow
Because TWI wants to change the words and copywrite laws prohibit that, and TWI doesn't want to spend the money it takes to get permission?
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TrustAndObey
Money.. It's all about the money..
And TWI wasn't willing to shell any of it out just so we could sing those songs that TWI felt needed reworded anyways.. Sure, they paid some money out once they realized they were committing copyright infringement with printing all those early song books with other people's copyrighted works. And once they realized that was going to cost them money. All the songs got scaled back and no more extras unless TWI held the rights. And to print the actual scores, why that would cost even more $$....
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OldSkool
Cheap leeches.
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So_crates
When I was a WOW, someone in leadership told me that music sinks right into the unconscious.
Why the rewording? Quick indoctrination, not only through music, but also through repitition.
As far as copyright infringement goes: Musical copyright laws must be more rigid than text copyright laws, because Saint Vic never nseemed to worry about whose text he played fast and loose with.
SoCrates
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TrustAndObey
Ol Vic didn't care about the songs either.. It took the copyright holders getting a hold of TWI and asking for $$ that set them straight.. Too bad all the guys Vic stole his PFAL material from didn't do the same..
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hiway29
songbooks-
When they came out with the brown one, we were instructed to destroy the blue one, for legal purposes I'm sure. I continued to see blue books for years.
For awhile, the limb leader in CT was singing some song to the tune of 'Take me out to the Ballgame"-It turned into a huge reproof from HQ about singing the correct tune, and not being such a rebel.
I could only scratch my head , wondering why they changed "How Firm a Foundation" to the tune of 'Oh Come all ye Faithful"-making it the 'way corps anthem'.
No big. I'm just trying to hit 3000 posts before the end, for no good reason.
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So_crates
Good thing he didn't choose Happy Birthday to You. That's copyrighted.
SoCrates
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excathedra
one of my favorites was "how great thou art"
there was a great hymn by someone in the 7th corps, a short guy -- dan ? -- "through changed eyes"
now we wait a joyful nation, come oh christ our life's elation....
knowing then we'll see it all through changed eyes -- hagerling maybe
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waysider
I remember that much, vividly. I think it was in the early 1980s but I could be wrong on the date.
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Ham
I have more underhanded slurs that would more than accurately describe them.
but no. No, I won't say..
I'm going for 12,000. fat chance..
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waysider
I never paid much attention to it until one day I happened to notice I had 10,000.
Holy crapioly! How did that happen?
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Ham
You must have blindly tripped over yourself during a few posts. Maybe that's it..
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waysider
It's hard to beat some of those great old songs, though.
Songs like What a Fellow's Hip and I Don't Know About Tomorrow, I Just Guess From Day To Day .
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mstar1
At least TWI was consistant, the entire organization was built on take whatever you want and credit and pay nobody.
The PFAL classes were built that way, it makes sense that the songbooks would be just as halfbaked as everything else
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So_crates
Let's see, Ham. If you averaged 50 words per post, in 12,000 posts you'd have written the 600,000 words, divide that by the average amount of words per page, 250, and you have written 2,400 pages or the equivalent of about five paperback novels.
SoCrates
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Broken Arrow
I don't think it was TWI that changed the words. It was fairly common in the 19th century for songwriters to write a song and use an existing song as a tune. In our time we would consider that an infringement, but not in those days. For example, I understand the "Star Spangled Banner" was written to the tune of a British song. Waysider might know more about this practice than than I do.
I heard from somewhere that Bill Gaither was one of the people that got upset one of his songs was being used without his permission (The Family of God). Does anyone know if that's really true?
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mstar1
TWI did change whatever words didnt fit in with Wierwiellism...Amazing Grace...A Mighty Fortress..other well known songs had words changed to suit the biblical inaccuracies that TWI held.
Its true enough that songs often take their melodies and rhythms from other songs but almost in all places the original writers and composers are still credited somewhere up near the title
TWI stayed true to its form in its songbooks and never credited anyone that I remember.
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waysider
It's been a common practice for centuries to interchange melodies and lyrics of songs. The words in the blue songbook, however, were intentionally changed to reflect Way doctrine. (Or as it was stated at the time, "to make them more accurate with the rightly divided Word.") One glaring example is the way Amazing Grace was changed to eliminate the phrase "a wretch like me". There was even a teaching (Possibly a Sunday Night Service) that made reference to the reason for this particular change. "Seated in the heavenlies" and "before the foundations of the world" and other such scriptures were used to show how the original phrase was "off". I don't remember much of the minute specifics. The brown songbook, on the other hand, was specifically changed because of conflicts with "permission of usage" problems. This explanation was given to me by someone who was very tight with the uppermost level of management and had been involved with the ministry since the 1950s. Out of respect for him, I won't use his name here.
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waysider
Remember this one?
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Broken Arrow
Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to defend TWI and their practice of changing words. I was explaining that I didn't think TWI was the group that invented the words to "How Firm a Foundation". Then again, maybe they did. I really don't know. But it is plausible that someone else wrote those words and simply put it to the tune we recognize as a Christmas Carol and TWI just printed that.
Waysider, not to be nit-picky (which means I'm going to be nit-picky), but the song where the words were changed from a "wretch like me" was "Amazing Grace", not "How Great Thou Art".
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waysider
Yeah, I guess I posted that too fast. I went back and edited it. Thanks for catching that.
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outintexas
Interesting because I just watched "Your Cheatin' Heart" on TCM, the story of Hank Williams (with some liberties).
I do remember one night circa 1994 where we all tore up the old blue songbooks per some directive with no reason why. Can you say red flag?
I don't know how many posts I have but I know I'm in the minor leagues. But it's been fun!
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Twinky
I didn't know Hank Williams wrote that song.
And there's an extra verse of it too that I've never heard before.
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socks
Always loved "I Saw The Light" - great Hank tune, waysider!
First time early the wif' and I heard and sang "Camping in Canaan's Land" we about fell over laughing. Enjoyed singing it, but the image and the sound of the words, "camping in Canaan's land" just seemed funny. Giggle fests for awhile there.
Singing together with other folks and all those older hymns was fun, still is at times. They're stately, thoughtful, poignant at times, loud declarations at others.
Half the lyrics on the 'Net are wrong and the other half are linked to those. Not all I guess but so much of the lyrics are close but no cigar.
The Way changed lyrics to match the doctrine and theology. Over the years others were written but take it from me, it's hard to write and arrange something like an "Amazing Grace". Simple as it is, it's killah. The use of the basic lyrics has been rewritten 1000's of times into other similar songs as the thought and sentiment is so universal but the original still stands as is as a great song.
Others have been done though as the years progress, IMO anyway. There's some great tunes coming out over the last 20-30 years. Time will sift the ones that people hold on to and love.
The lyric changing never stuck in my craw, still doesn't but it probably should have. That's just me but then I'm not reprinting song books with the news ones.
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