If the 15 minute intervals weren't bad enough you had to turn in an actual and explain why the adversary tricked you into not following your original plan, wherever you veered. Oh, and let's not forget the micromanaging of married couples sex lives. Yep, you had to pencil in time for sex. Then your overseer could check up on that too.
Sorry if the past is bothersome to the way international - If my past was as sordid as theirs I wouldn't like it either.
Somewhere in the 90's didn't Martindale declare that the "Word had gone over the world" and it was time for Phase Two, or something? Was that when the "Prevailing" household stuff solidified?
Reason I'm wondering is - cultural shifts are generally though to occur in real time with some real basis for the change and then get recognized somewhere in the bubble of the change. Recognition is external to the actual change itself. Once people become self-conscious of what they're doing the dynamic of the change hmmm....changes and becomes informed by that recognition and measured differently. As a "thing" rather than a living process. Being self-aware while it's ongoing and not affecting the shift itself is difficult - lots of examples of this - like the 50's, Jack Kerouac, Woody Guthrie, who were causing a ripple effect without being aware that entire generations would know about it and they'd be on posters or referenced in TV commercials for cars decades later. Or that Bob Dylan would come along.
It seems like LCM must have become very aware of where he was in the timeline of the Way and that something like "Word Over the World" wasn't going to happen within a single lifetime without a continual authentic experience within the participants.
That happened in the 60's and early 70's and then became inculcated into The Way's "culture". The routing was circuitous to be sure but I doubt even that it was clear what the exact outcome would really be.
That kind of personal authentic experience and "culture shift" doesn't just "happen" the same way in a controlled environment-even if the impetus is manufactured, there's elements of spontaneity and creativity that are involved that will be lost by watching, observing, evaluating and measuring it..
Absent a real authentic experience that bubbles up and over of it's own power I could see someone deciding to go the controlled manufactured route - if "It" ain't happening on it's own, start hammering and stacking and trying to duplicate the core experience by manufacturing it.
Or perhaps just give up and move on to something else. Self-improvement to the extreme, micro managing to the point that the process and keeping to it becomes the measure of success rather than the means to an end.
Dunno, just thinking. Doesn't matter now, that's for sure.
It's odd that the reality of history didn't inform our thinking more, well I guess it did but it took time.
Socks, I don't think it's anything to do with change - just with control. And busy-work. And more opportunities for them to put a downer on people. Which comes back to control. Not even self-control.
Heck, wouldn't you just love to see one of Jessu's days marked out in 15 minute segments? His days were marked by sponteneity and response to the needs he saw around him and where he was asked to help.
Socks, I don't think it's anything to do with change - just with control. And busy-work. And more opportunities for them to put a downer on people. Which comes back to control. Not even self-control.
Also.....martindale, with rosie and donna whispering in his ear, wanted to re-establish his ministry in the eyes of twi. He was convinced that his presidency would ESTABLISH the words that wierwille had spoken......remember all that #2 stuff? And, martindale was the modern-day Joshua, taking the children into the "promised land."
The new and improved way international was all about planning the adversary out of your life. And, the "present truth" will be different today than it was yesterday....because when circumstances change, revelation changes....and all that jazz.
Wherever the prevailing winds blew.....there you was.
Absent a real authentic experience that bubbles up and over of it's own power I could see someone deciding to go the controlled manufactured route - if "It" ain't happening on it's own, start hammering and stacking and trying to duplicate the core experience by manufacturing it.
Reminded me of this....
In 'The Road to Serfdom,' Friedrich Hayek, an influential critic of centralized government and a major influence on President Reagan and Prime Minister Thatcher, similarly warned that [government] planning leads to dictatorship because dictatorship is the most effective instrument of coercion and the enforcement of ideals. He added, The more the state 'plans' the more difficult planning becomes for the individual.
"The more the state 'plans' the more difficult planning becomes for the individual."
"...hate the past"....
The future? Fear might be a good word to describe micro management in 15 minute intervals.
Fear that what might happen will happen. Something won't go right, something will go wrong.
What if something goes right that I wasn't expecting?
I'm so removed from this type of Wayfer thinking you describe Bolsh that it's hard for me to imagine living like that. I'm all for planning, etc. blah blah. That goes with the territory. But under the auspices and direction of an organization like The Way where "biblical research and teaching" and fellowship is supposed to be what they do - it's ridiculous. Not to mention the dim bulbs and dull knives that populate that place - it's just, yeah. Not good.
In wayworld . . . We planned our weeks in 15 minute intervals.
For those who might look at this planning in 15-minute intervals and wonder "What the heck are they thinking?".......here's a brief overview.
In March 1995, Martindale declared that he got revelation from the Lord for all corps to be full-time ministers.....ie all corps on twi's payroll starting in September. At Corps Week, all corps met with Brad Th0rpe, twi's personnel director, to discuss twi's allocated budget parameters for employment. The field corps situation was most ambiguious.
At the first corps phone hook-up in September, the hammer came down.......as twi realized the immensity of this undertaking. The Trunk Staff was doubled as financial support undergirded every decision-making policy. Martindale was awakened to the new reality as twi was NOW obligated to meet all expenses of the corps and families.
1996 Rock of Ages was cancelled.....too expensive to pay for all corps' expenses
Word in Business Conferences........only corps invited to work, could attend
Later......twi had to detail financial arrangements: corps kids' dental needs, pregnancies, cable tv, karate/music lessons expense, pets policy, etc. etc.
Within weeks, region coordinators were on a 'witch hunt' to remove all corps from payroll who were simply not corps material. In other words, twi was backtracking from this huge payroll burden....not wanting to admit that Martindale's revelation was bogus. Within six weeks, 80-120 corps were designated "corps alumnus" and NO LONGER CORPS. The political gymnastics these first two months was stunning.....whole categories were being rephased or declassified (/sarc) for twi consumption.
WHICH BRINGS ME TO THIS.........the 15-minute interval planning was a tool devised by Martindale and co. to add a framework to the field corps' day. The trustees wanted the trunk office to oversee the 'production' of these corps and that they were using their time wisely and honestly. The fax machines were buzzing.....trunk/region/limb/branch.....as twi was twisting in the wind to put job descriptions in place, expectations, reporting, etc. What a clusterfvck of crazy!
SO...........as more and more corps left the ranks, the legalism trickled down to others. The planning schedules became the new norm, but few remember the perversion that started it which was Martindale's BOGUS revelation from God. Centralized governing and authority never ends well.....and twi fell right into the trap.
I'm frequently taking pause . . . don't know why I'm still surprised . . . these things just come up
. . . between "preparation is the highest form of believing" and the weekly plans I had to turn in as a teenager and beyond . . .
. . . there was no planning and preparation for real life . . . useless
. . . events occur . . . we don't know when . . . we just know they will . . .
it's good to think ahead, but oh, "we don't worry 'or tomorrow . . . we just live from day to day . . . now turn in last week's actual event list and next week's plan . . ."
So the whole 15 minute schtick was actually a screening device to cheat people out of their payroles.
The 15 minute interval planning was a legalistic manuever whereby, with written documentation, twi was allowed intervention into EVERY facet of your life. With payroll and micro-managed schedules, TWI BECAME OVERLORDS TO ALL CORPS.
By demanding the impossible and unthinkable, twi crossed every boundary of respectful dignity and christian character. At any time, twi could launch a confrontation on any given corps. The implementation and exploitation of this scheme could only be hatched in the dungeons of hell. Twi became the heavy-handed taskmaster and, in turn, the servant to the rulers of the darkness of this world.
Doesn't it seem at least a little "twisted" to anyone else here.. having to report the day, time, and (within 15 minutes) hour of having sex with one's wife?
The way corps was turned into far worse than meddlers. Now they have the perfect "opportunity" and mandate to become voyeurs..
If the 15 minute intervals weren't bad enough you had to turn in an actual and explain why the adversary tricked you into not following your original plan, wherever you veered. Oh, and let's not forget the micromanaging of married couples sex lives. Yep, you had to pencil in time for sex. Then your overseer could check up on that too.
Sorry if the past is bothersome to the way international - If my past was as sordid as theirs I wouldn't like it either.
OMG! The things that come to mind if you spent too much time on sex. And even thinking that was the adversary....OMG! That organization is so effed up, it is inconceivable people stay in it.
What do you say to leadership? You were having more fun than originally planned? Then you schedule more time the following week and get reproved for spending too much time having sex? Good God! Where does the craziness stop?
During that time I had three preschoolers. My schedules never worked--but I was not corps. Still, this was a cause for concern. So Corps leader wifie talked to me about schedul conflicts and about the Adversary messing with the schedule. She was super proud to tell me her schedule got whammed, too, but she showed that Adversay what for by doing her Aerobics at two am. It happened all the time. What a lesson for me, the little twiggie.
Except she looked like exhausted hell. How could always losing all that sleep be good for anyone? Just one more thing I packed into my gotta get away sack
If you're on someone's payroll, you have to abide by the conditions of your employment.
Anyone have a copy of the or their employment contract? - some kind of agreement would have had to be signed and processed during LCM's hiring phase. .
That would tell a lot.
Putting the entire Way Corps on the books as employees was insanity, a financial melt down in the making from Day One. If someone had done the math they would have seen it coming - apparently no one had a calculator or if they did they just went along with it.
I remember hearing that the Way nearly drained their bank account in the 90's as a result - Howard A. in a Trustee? meeting reported they were within a couple 100 K of bottoming out. LCM had to back up quick. H.A. retired within the year. Etc. Etc.
Duh.
They're really a nutty, kind of a "Three Stooges Start a Ministry" reality show.
How's that go -Luke 14:
28 “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? 29 For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, 30 saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’31 “Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Won’t he first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32 If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. 33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.
Basically, don't get in the water and later say you never thought you were going to have to swim.. Don't attempt to say you're going to follow the Lord Jesus Christ and not consider what it's going to involve. Half way out to sea is no time to say you don't like being out on the water.
The Way doesn't read their own bibles and can't learn from it. They (or the myriad of other modern businesses masquerading as "ministries") assume that by dealing with people's wallets and time they can build "disciples".
Putting the entire Way Corps on the books as employees was insanity, a financial melt down in the making from Day One. If someone had done the math they would have seen it coming - apparently no one had a calculator or if they did they just went along with it.
I remember hearing that the Way nearly drained their bank account in the 90's as a result - Howard A. in a Trustee? meeting reported they were within a couple 100 K of bottoming out. LCM had to back up quick. H.A. retired within the year. Etc. Etc.
See...THAT'S the difference between twi and other organizations. CEOs of major corporations are always looking at the senses world, the numbers, the payroll, the budget.
In twi....the trustees walk in believing, something 'the world' will never comprehend.
If the 15 minute intervals weren't bad enough you had to turn in an actual and explain why the adversary tricked you into not following your original plan, wherever you veered. Oh, and let's not forget the micromanaging of married couples sex lives. Yep, you had to pencil in time for sex. Then your overseer could check up on that too.
Leadership probably had everyone plan their life in 15 minute intervals, because leadership planned their lives in 15 minute intervals. Saint Vic, Craigmeister, and Rip-N-Bark couldn't let their minds wander. They were too small to be left alone.
I remember hearing that the Way nearly drained their bank account in the 90's as a result [of putting all WC on staff} - Howard A. in a Trustee? meeting reported they were within a couple 100 K of bottoming out. LCM had to back up quick. H.A. retired within the year. Etc. Etc.
I find that a bit hard to believe.
If as alleged elsewhere here they have over $57million in the bank - I can't see they only had $200K left. That $57m money in the bank has been there a long time.
On current numbers, they couldn't manage to bring in that much, surely? That would mean bringing in about $3.8m surplus every year since the policy was cancelled. Much more than $3.8m, when you take running costs and salaries for remaining staff into account as well.
But I can see it might drain their current ("operating") account and use up most of the annual ABS so that the $57m capital nest-egg didn't build up any more.
What a thing that would be - to use the ABS for "moving the word" and paying field staff to get out there and DO something. (Even better if HQ staff had to get out there and do something...LOL)
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OldSkool
If the 15 minute intervals weren't bad enough you had to turn in an actual and explain why the adversary tricked you into not following your original plan, wherever you veered. Oh, and let's not forget the micromanaging of married couples sex lives. Yep, you had to pencil in time for sex. Then your overseer could check up on that too.
Sorry if the past is bothersome to the way international
- If my past was as sordid as theirs I wouldn't like it either.
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socks
Somewhere in the 90's didn't Martindale declare that the "Word had gone over the world" and it was time for Phase Two, or something? Was that when the "Prevailing" household stuff solidified?
Reason I'm wondering is - cultural shifts are generally though to occur in real time with some real basis for the change and then get recognized somewhere in the bubble of the change. Recognition is external to the actual change itself. Once people become self-conscious of what they're doing the dynamic of the change hmmm....changes and becomes informed by that recognition and measured differently. As a "thing" rather than a living process. Being self-aware while it's ongoing and not affecting the shift itself is difficult - lots of examples of this - like the 50's, Jack Kerouac, Woody Guthrie, who were causing a ripple effect without being aware that entire generations would know about it and they'd be on posters or referenced in TV commercials for cars decades later. Or that Bob Dylan would come along.
It seems like LCM must have become very aware of where he was in the timeline of the Way and that something like "Word Over the World" wasn't going to happen within a single lifetime without a continual authentic experience within the participants.
That happened in the 60's and early 70's and then became inculcated into The Way's "culture". The routing was circuitous to be sure but I doubt even that it was clear what the exact outcome would really be.
That kind of personal authentic experience and "culture shift" doesn't just "happen" the same way in a controlled environment-even if the impetus is manufactured, there's elements of spontaneity and creativity that are involved that will be lost by watching, observing, evaluating and measuring it..
Absent a real authentic experience that bubbles up and over of it's own power I could see someone deciding to go the controlled manufactured route - if "It" ain't happening on it's own, start hammering and stacking and trying to duplicate the core experience by manufacturing it.
Or perhaps just give up and move on to something else. Self-improvement to the extreme, micro managing to the point that the process and keeping to it becomes the measure of success rather than the means to an end.
Dunno, just thinking. Doesn't matter now, that's for sure.
It's odd that the reality of history didn't inform our thinking more, well I guess it did but it took time.
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Twinky
Socks, I don't think it's anything to do with change - just with control. And busy-work. And more opportunities for them to put a downer on people. Which comes back to control. Not even self-control.
Heck, wouldn't you just love to see one of Jessu's days marked out in 15 minute segments? His days were marked by sponteneity and response to the needs he saw around him and where he was asked to help.
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waysider
I'm gonna get back and read this thread as soon as I can pencil in some time for it.
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skyrider
Also.....martindale, with rosie and donna whispering in his ear, wanted to re-establish his ministry in the eyes of twi. He was convinced that his presidency would ESTABLISH the words that wierwille had spoken......remember all that #2 stuff? And, martindale was the modern-day Joshua, taking the children into the "promised land."
The new and improved way international was all about planning the adversary out of your life. And, the "present truth" will be different today than it was yesterday....because when circumstances change, revelation changes....and all that jazz.
Wherever the prevailing winds blew.....there you was.
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So_crates
Why 15 minute intervals? Don't want us to think too much about the future. We might realize where the whole house of cards was really headed.
SoCrates
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skyrider
Reminded me of this....
In 'The Road to Serfdom,' Friedrich Hayek, an influential critic of centralized government and a major influence on President Reagan and Prime Minister Thatcher, similarly warned that [government] planning leads to dictatorship because dictatorship is the most effective instrument of coercion and the enforcement of ideals. He added, The more the state 'plans' the more difficult planning becomes for the individual.
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socks
"The more the state 'plans' the more difficult planning becomes for the individual."
"...hate the past"....
The future? Fear might be a good word to describe micro management in 15 minute intervals.
Fear that what might happen will happen. Something won't go right, something will go wrong.
What if something goes right that I wasn't expecting?
I'm so removed from this type of Wayfer thinking you describe Bolsh that it's hard for me to imagine living like that. I'm all for planning, etc. blah blah. That goes with the territory. But under the auspices and direction of an organization like The Way where "biblical research and teaching" and fellowship is supposed to be what they do - it's ridiculous. Not to mention the dim bulbs and dull knives that populate that place - it's just, yeah. Not good.
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So_crates
What is it the fireman chaplin that died in 9/11 said?
"If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans."
SoCrates
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skyrider
For those who might look at this planning in 15-minute intervals and wonder "What the heck are they thinking?".......here's a brief overview.
In March 1995, Martindale declared that he got revelation from the Lord for all corps to be full-time ministers.....ie all corps on twi's payroll starting in September. At Corps Week, all corps met with Brad Th0rpe, twi's personnel director, to discuss twi's allocated budget parameters for employment. The field corps situation was most ambiguious.
At the first corps phone hook-up in September, the hammer came down.......as twi realized the immensity of this undertaking. The Trunk Staff was doubled as financial support undergirded every decision-making policy. Martindale was awakened to the new reality as twi was NOW obligated to meet all expenses of the corps and families.
1996 Rock of Ages was cancelled.....too expensive to pay for all corps' expenses
Word in Business Conferences........only corps invited to work, could attend
Later......twi had to detail financial arrangements: corps kids' dental needs, pregnancies, cable tv, karate/music lessons expense, pets policy, etc. etc.
Within weeks, region coordinators were on a 'witch hunt' to remove all corps from payroll who were simply not corps material. In other words, twi was backtracking from this huge payroll burden....not wanting to admit that Martindale's revelation was bogus. Within six weeks, 80-120 corps were designated "corps alumnus" and NO LONGER CORPS. The political gymnastics these first two months was stunning.....whole categories were being rephased or declassified (/sarc) for twi consumption.
WHICH BRINGS ME TO THIS.........the 15-minute interval planning was a tool devised by Martindale and co. to add a framework to the field corps' day. The trustees wanted the trunk office to oversee the 'production' of these corps and that they were using their time wisely and honestly. The fax machines were buzzing.....trunk/region/limb/branch.....as twi was twisting in the wind to put job descriptions in place, expectations, reporting, etc. What a clusterfvck of crazy!
SO...........as more and more corps left the ranks, the legalism trickled down to others. The planning schedules became the new norm, but few remember the perversion that started it which was Martindale's BOGUS revelation from God. Centralized governing and authority never ends well.....and twi fell right into the trap.
The legalism lives on.
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So_crates
So the whole 15 minute schtick was actually a screening device to cheat people out of their payroles.
SoCrates
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Bolshevik
I'm frequently taking pause . . . don't know why I'm still surprised . . . these things just come up
. . . between "preparation is the highest form of believing" and the weekly plans I had to turn in as a teenager and beyond . . .
. . . there was no planning and preparation for real life . . . useless
. . . events occur . . . we don't know when . . . we just know they will . . .
it's good to think ahead, but oh, "we don't worry 'or tomorrow . . . we just live from day to day . . . now turn in last week's actual event list and next week's plan . . ."
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skyrider
The 15 minute interval planning was a legalistic manuever whereby, with written documentation, twi was allowed intervention into EVERY facet of your life. With payroll and micro-managed schedules, TWI BECAME OVERLORDS TO ALL CORPS.
By demanding the impossible and unthinkable, twi crossed every boundary of respectful dignity and christian character. At any time, twi could launch a confrontation on any given corps. The implementation and exploitation of this scheme could only be hatched in the dungeons of hell. Twi became the heavy-handed taskmaster and, in turn, the servant to the rulers of the darkness of this world.
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Ham
exactly HOW.. did they "check up on that too"?
that's illegal in most states, anyway..
I mean.. really. You give them the hour and minute its gonna happen. In a detailed, fifteen minute incremented schedule..
and the hammer comes down..
"come clean. you didn't have sex with your wife.."
how did you figure that out, bub? Hummm?
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Ham
Doesn't it seem at least a little "twisted" to anyone else here.. having to report the day, time, and (within 15 minutes) hour of having sex with one's wife?
The way corps was turned into far worse than meddlers. Now they have the perfect "opportunity" and mandate to become voyeurs..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyeurism
what a sick, friggin *ministry*..
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Nottawayfer
OMG! The things that come to mind if you spent too much time on sex. And even thinking that was the adversary....OMG! That organization is so effed up, it is inconceivable people stay in it.
What do you say to leadership? You were having more fun than originally planned? Then you schedule more time the following week and get reproved for spending too much time having sex? Good God! Where does the craziness stop?
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Bramble
During that time I had three preschoolers. My schedules never worked--but I was not corps. Still, this was a cause for concern. So Corps leader wifie talked to me about schedul conflicts and about the Adversary messing with the schedule. She was super proud to tell me her schedule got whammed, too, but she showed that Adversay what for by doing her Aerobics at two am. It happened all the time. What a lesson for me, the little twiggie.
Except she looked like exhausted hell. How could always losing all that sleep be good for anyone? Just one more thing I packed into my gotta get away sack
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excathedra
i personally didn't have to live my life in 15-minute intervals, but i honestly feel i was oppressed
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socks
If you're on someone's payroll, you have to abide by the conditions of your employment.
Anyone have a copy of the or their employment contract? - some kind of agreement would have had to be signed and processed during LCM's hiring phase. .
That would tell a lot.
Putting the entire Way Corps on the books as employees was insanity, a financial melt down in the making from Day One. If someone had done the math they would have seen it coming - apparently no one had a calculator or if they did they just went along with it.
I remember hearing that the Way nearly drained their bank account in the 90's as a result - Howard A. in a Trustee? meeting reported they were within a couple 100 K of bottoming out. LCM had to back up quick. H.A. retired within the year. Etc. Etc.
Duh.
They're really a nutty, kind of a "Three Stooges Start a Ministry" reality show.
How's that go -Luke 14:
28 “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? 29 For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, 30 saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’ 31 “Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Won’t he first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32 If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. 33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.
Basically, don't get in the water and later say you never thought you were going to have to swim.. Don't attempt to say you're going to follow the Lord Jesus Christ and not consider what it's going to involve. Half way out to sea is no time to say you don't like being out on the water.
The Way doesn't read their own bibles and can't learn from it. They (or the myriad of other modern businesses masquerading as "ministries") assume that by dealing with people's wallets and time they can build "disciples".
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johniam
quote:
The new and improved way international was all about planning the adversary out of your life.
Sounds like they effectively planned GOD out of their lives.
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skyrider
See...THAT'S the difference between twi and other organizations. CEOs of major corporations are always looking at the senses world, the numbers, the payroll, the budget.
In twi....the trustees walk in believing, something 'the world' will never comprehend.
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So_crates
Leadership probably had everyone plan their life in 15 minute intervals, because leadership planned their lives in 15 minute intervals. Saint Vic, Craigmeister, and Rip-N-Bark couldn't let their minds wander. They were too small to be left alone.
SoCrates
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Twinky
I find that a bit hard to believe.
If as alleged elsewhere here they have over $57million in the bank - I can't see they only had $200K left. That $57m money in the bank has been there a long time.
On current numbers, they couldn't manage to bring in that much, surely? That would mean bringing in about $3.8m surplus every year since the policy was cancelled. Much more than $3.8m, when you take running costs and salaries for remaining staff into account as well.
But I can see it might drain their current ("operating") account and use up most of the annual ABS so that the $57m capital nest-egg didn't build up any more.
What a thing that would be - to use the ABS for "moving the word" and paying field staff to get out there and DO something. (Even better if HQ staff had to get out there and do something...LOL)
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Bolshevik
This so-called "planning" . . . I think is comfortable to the follower . . . they never have to look forward . . . nothing is obscure to them
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