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[OldSkool]

zzzz

[So_crates]

When VP said believing works for saint and sinner alike, he obviously wasn't referring to ALL believing;

I hate to burst you bubble, but he ment all believing. Dig: According to Saint Vic, fear is negative believing right? So when bad things happen to sinners what is it? Their negative believing, right?

SoCrates

Edited March 25, 2011 by So_crates

[johniam]

Remember the 5 kinds of faith?

1) natural believing

2) the faith of Jesus Christ

3) household or common faith

4) manifestation of faith

5) fruit of the spirit faith

Of those 5, only one doesn't require God's direct involvement. Natural believing. You don't think it will help you if you go to a job interview with a positive attitude? You go to that interview thinking you're the best, you will make a fine employee, you will be a blessing to that company; and this won't be better than going to the interview afraid, self conscious, worried, etc???? THAT is an example of natural believing! We all use that and have for all our lives. As I said, the same mental action is required, but God is involved in the others. Jesus said he that is unfaithful in that which is least (natural believing) is also unfaithful in that which is most (believing which requires God's direct involvement). You still don't think there's a difference?

Consider that in Romans 12:3 it says we all have THE MEASURE of faith. One size fits all. But in Matt. 6 Jesus says his disciples are "ye of little faith" and in Matt. 8 he says the centurion had "great faith"! The faith of Jesus Christ, which is the basis of the household faith, the manifestation of faith, and the fruit of the spirit faith is one size fits all; if you're born again, part of the body of Christ, then you HAVE it! The faith which can be great or small is natural believing, accessible to saint and sinner alike. Got it?

[So_crates]

I said it before and I'll repeat it for the benefit of those of you that never heard it.

According to Saint Vic, in believing, what we think the most about we become, right?

Well, if that's so, we should all be female.

Because that's what's most on the mind of a 14 year old boy.

SoCrates

[geisha779]

Johniam,

Faith needs an object. The Centurion was placing his faith in someone. . . . . Jesus and in His words, not something intangible. Which is why Jesus praised him. He wasn't placing his faith in healing, or what was available...but in the authority Jesus had which came from God. How do you think he knew about Jesus to go to Him?

You are missing the point, but I suspect, listening to VP and dragging out that inaccurate 5 types of faith teaching, you have been missing it for quite awhile. What is it going to hurt you to branch out and listen to some other bible teachers(non TWI related) on the subject of faith? Not a thing. You may learn something of value....like what object or person we actually put our faith in.

The Centurion had faith in Jesus...just like you are supposed to have. You should be able to recognize this.

It is not about what's available and how to receive it, it is about faith in a person who claims to be someone. Either He is...or He isn't...if He is....then He is all sufficient. When our faith is truly in Him, we know what we have in Him....we don't need to seek it out and find out if it is available to get something from God. We have Him!! He has given us everything in Christ. It is about Him and being in relationship to Him.

I don't really know how many more ways to say it.

It is like there is a disconnect somewhere and you travel this strange circuitous route to actually avoid Jesus and somehow think you are going to come to God.

Edited March 25, 2011 by geisha779

[chockfull]

Remember the 5 kinds of faith?

Remember Luke 18:16-17 ? But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

In reality, that's all you need to know about faith and/or believing. You don't need 5 kinds of faith, 4 cameras, 3 positive confessions, 2 turtle doves or a partridge in a pear tree.

Faith / believing begins and ends with Jesus Christ.

The sooner you figure that out, the sooner you will be able to figure out all of the false prophets trying to put themselves in His place.

[Broken Arrow]

quote: I stayed out because I found my life to be incomplete in TWI.

Sounds like you had personal issues that were separate from VP or twi, yet, that twi couldn't or wouldn't help you with. I'm glad those got resolved for you. Praise God, and to a lesser extent, whoever God worked through to help you.

That's true, Johniam. That's not why I'm no longer with TWI. My point in saying all that I said a few days ago is that when faced with a real problem, I needed a relationship with a loving Father. Quoting Bible verses, focusing on what I wanted, then shooting the picture, determining what was available, how to receive it, what to do with it after I got it etc., knowing to whom the Bible was addressed, the fact that 4 were crucified with Jesus, were of no value. Neither was being smug in knowing that I knew the rightly divided Word, and that I was a graduate of The Way Corps etc. all were hollow. Being led to the one who carried my sin, crying like a baby while I repented of my sin, and then receiving his acceptance and true love were what delivered me. I did not know this Jesus while in The Way International. Moreover, this type of relating was frowned upon in TWI. TWI would say to "forget the past", "stand up staight and know you're a son of God". "Claim your sonship rights", "Ask forgiveness and move on". Some would even say I was practicing idolatry. That's why I am no longer with TWI.

When faced with a soul defeating sin, it takes more than just claiming sonship rights and moving on. It takes recognition in knowing there is something broken within, and then realizing that one's only hope for overcoming this lies in the risen Christ. This same Christ will never leave or forsake us. Much bigger than "receive, retain, release".

To reiterate, TWI reduced God from a loving Father to a principle to be applied.

[johniam]

I dunno, I never thought of God as a principle. Receive retain release. That's a principle, but I've always thought that God wants us to pour out our hearts before Him; snuggle up to Him, if you will. I admit that back in the day I totally bought the "committed beyond your lifetime" stuff. You just don't leave God's ministry. But people gotta be where they get their needs met; where they're blessed. I rejoice that God comforted your heart.

I've been a Christian just about 35 years now, yet I don't pray as if God owes me anything. Every day of life is a gift. I've had just over 20,000 of them. There's always something to be thankful about.

I have an acquaintance whose experience may be similar to yours. He was in the way corps, married a 9th corps woman, then stopped going to the offshoot fellowship I went to 10 years ago. All I heard was that he'd joined a "Jesus church". Next thing I hear is he and his wife were divorcing. She sold off and gave away a lot of stuff of their's. We got a huge tent free. In 2005 we went to the Grand Canyon. I tried to set up the tent but with no written instructions I couldn't figure out how to get it up, so I called this guy and asked him to come over and show me how to set it up and that he could name his price.

All he wanted in return was to be able to talk to us about his current situation. He said he could talk to Jesus and the first thing he said to him was "I'm not a devil spirit". Nothing about Jesus being God. Nothing about twi being evil. Just that he liked what he was into now, even though it cost him his marriage. He left an email address and asked if he could have the tent after we got back from the Grand Canyon. He was never consulted about her giving stuff away. I looked up the tent company's website and found that a brand new tent that size would cost $350.00. I concluded that he should have had first right of refusal regarding the tent and gave it to him.

Haven't seen him since, but the talk was pleasant. As I say, if my situation isn't broken, then why should I try to fix it? But I wouldn't be afraid to call this guy again, or even join a church if things changed.

[geisha779]

That's true, Johniam. That's not why I'm no longer with TWI. My point in saying all that I said a few days ago is that when faced with a real problem, I needed a relationship with a loving Father. Quoting Bible verses, focusing on what I wanted, then shooting the picture, determining what was available, how to receive it, what to do with it after I got it etc., knowing to whom the Bible was addressed, the fact that 4 were crucified with Jesus, were of no value. Neither was being smug in knowing that I knew the rightly divided Word, and that I was a graduate of The Way Corps etc. all were hollow. Being led to the one who carried my sin, crying like a baby while I repented of my sin, and then receiving his acceptance and true love were what delivered me. I did not know this Jesus while in The Way International. Moreover, this type of relating was frowned upon in TWI. TWI would say to "forget the past", "stand up staight and know you're a son of God". "Claim your sonship rights", "Ask forgiveness and move on". Some would even say I was practicing idolatry. That's why I am no longer with TWI.

When faced with a soul defeating sin, it takes more than just claiming sonship rights and moving on. It takes recognition in knowing there is something broken within, and then realizing that one's only hope for overcoming this lies in the risen Christ. This same Christ will never leave or forsake us. Much bigger than "receive, retain, release".

To reiterate, TWI reduced God from a loving Father to a principle to be applied.

Now, this is something I can really understand and it is a great testimony. Thank you for sharing this.

I too, had to go like a baby, on my knees in repentance. I can remember things just washing over me, all the times I had denied Him, or the things I had done that I thought were okay with Him. It all came out and I laid it at the foot of the cross. It was then I became a Christian. I knew I was forgiven and accepted.

I paid a heavy price for my time in the Way. Things I would never share here. Things lost that I cannot regain.....I still have some sorrow, but I know that I am forgiven. It didn't take away the consequences of my sins. I didn't get a do over of my youth and folly, but, I have faith in Him and some peace about my past.

Usually, I am just awestruck He rescued me...His mercy is unfathomable. I know He will deliver anyone who throws up their hands and just humbly asks Him.

Here am I, and the children God has given me.

God is good. :)

Edited March 27, 2011 by geisha779

[Broken Arrow]

I have an acquaintance whose experience may be similar to yours.

I appreciate you sentiment. Just to be clear, and I'm not saying you said this, my marriage did not fail as a result of me going to a "Jesus" church. It had already fallen apart and I turned to Christ.

Now, this is something I can really understand and it is a great testimony. Thank you for sharing this.

I too, had to go like a baby, on my knees in repentance. I can remember things just washing over me, all the times I had denied Him, or the things I had done that I thought were okay with Him. It all came out and I laid it at the foot of the cross. It was then I became a Christian. I knew I was forgiven and accepted.

I paid a heavy price for my time in the Way. Things I would never share here. Things lost that I cannot regain.....I still have some sorrow, but I know that I am forgiven. It didn't take away the consequences of my sins. I didn't get a do over of my youth and folly, but, I have faith in Him and some peace about my past.

Usually, I am just awestruck He rescued me...His mercy is unfathomable. I know He will deliver anyone who throws up their hands and just humbly asks Him.

Here am I, and the children God has given me.

God is good. :)

Thank you, Geisha, and thank you for your testimony.

Edited March 27, 2011 by Broken Arrow

[johniam]

quote: I needed a relationship with a loving Father. Quoting Bible verses, focusing on what I wanted, then shooting the picture, determining what was available, how to receive it, what to do with it after I got it etc., knowing to whom the Bible was addressed, the fact that 4 were crucified with Jesus, were of no value. Neither was being smug in knowing that I knew the rightly divided Word, and that I was a graduate of The Way Corps etc. all were hollow. Being led to the one who carried my sin, crying like a baby while I repented of my sin, and then receiving his acceptance and true love were what delivered me.

Vince Finnegan had a similar testimony. He said that after he left twi he felt heavy. His dilemma was "if God so loved the world, then why do I so hate it"? I can't remember his exact words; I had brief exposure to his group, but he described an emotional (not out of control) segment of time where he felt "washed". I've had times where I cried about stuff. I guess I never felt obligated to tell twi people about EVERYTHING going thru my head. None of their business.

[OldSkool]

I haven't seen any church or ministry other than twi that seemed to do a BETTER job of connecting with their people on this stuff, but I really think twi's advanced class didn't connect as well as the other 2 classes.

So wtf does Vince Finnegan's perspective have to do with your original topic? <_<

[waysider]

quote: Maybe it's just me. When I see that jumbled mess, where you can't tell where one person's quote ends and the next person's quote begins, I lose my desire to consider the contents seriously.

quote: If someone really expected to be taken seriously, they would make an effort to make their posts more readable.

Well, maybe it's a debul spurt thing.

Edited March 29, 2011 by waysider

[OldSkool]

quote:Well, maybe it's a debul spurt thing.

Dang spurrrts.

[waysider]

quote:Well, maybe it's a debul spurt thing.

Dang spurrrts.

Yeah quote: Maybe.

Page 21 end quote:

[OldSkool]

quote:Dang spurrrts.

Yeah quote: Maybe. quote:Maybe

not.

quote:Well, maybe it's a debul spurt thing

Page 21 end quote:

quote:Maybe.

could be.

[T-Bone]

quote:Dang spurrrts.

Yeah quote: Maybe. quote:Maybe

not.

quote:Well, maybe it's a debul spurt thing

Page 21 end quote:

quote:Maybe.

could be.

can i quote you [or somebody] on that?

[OldSkool]

can i quote you [or somebody] on that?

:biglaugh:

[waysider]

quote: can i quote you [or somebody] on that?

make sure you make it clear that it's a quote:

end quote:

Edited March 29, 2011 by waysider

[Ham]

but this is only page 5..

[waysider]

10-4, Eleanor.

[Ham]

and don't eat with your hand. Use your entrenching tool..

[OldSkool]

quote: entrenching tool..

How can I when it's entrenched?

[Ham]

Oh, that son of mine..

[waysider]

quote: Hi, I'm Joe Beats. Hey, what chance does a returning, deceased war veteran have for that good paying job, more sugar and the free mule you've been dreaming of? Well, think it over.....then take off your shoes. Now you can see how increased spending opportunities mean harder work for everyone.

Edited March 29, 2011 by waysider