Connect

[johniam]

I don't think twi's advanced class connected with people as well as the foundational and intermediate classes did. I once heard that out of all the people who took pfal foundational, that only 67% took the intermediate and only 33% took the advanced.

In foundational pfal there was the anticipation of SIT at the end. Class instructors were very precise as to the protocol: what grads should or should not say to new students, the flip charts, the reference books shown to back up 4 crucified, etc. Despite the fact that the class was 34 hours over 3 weeks, most new students in classes I attended were focussed on getting through the class, sometimes even hanging on the edge of their seats. At every 12th session, especially when you had to stand up, there was this excitement in the air that was hard to ignore.

Intermediate class was shorter, but it gave new students the opportunity to give back; to put themselves on the spot. Again, there was the anticipation of successfully doing TIP. Some people got self conscious. They always told grads of foundational pfal not to teach the class to the new students; let VP do that, but many did anyway. In intermediate, IMO, new students SHOULD have gotten some type of practice in their twigs with one or 2 others present beforehand. Anything to get them comfortable at least with the mechanics of speech part of it.

But the advanced class was, to me, more of a social event than a class with practical instruction. The anticipation was just to get there, spend 2 1/2 weeks at a root location, finally get the name tag, etc. Waiting for the class to end was anticlimactic, as far as what you might do at the end of the class. I guess it would have been nice if you could, y'know, cast out a spirit or raise somebody from the dead before the class officially ended, but that didn't happen. It seems like you either trusted someone with your life or you didn't, regardless of whether they were an AC grad.

I posted recently that Jesus MUST have given some instruction to his disciples about devil spirits; how to spot them, what to say or not say to them, and when to pull the trigger (cast them out). Same for raising the dead and other miracles or displays of power, but even in scripture the info is limited. Freely you have received, freely give. Stuff like that, yet it says the disciples rejoiced that they had this power and that it continued after Jesus' resurrection and ascencion. I haven't seen any church or ministry other than twi that seemed to do a BETTER job of connecting with their people on this stuff, but I really think twi's advanced class didn't connect as well as the other 2 classes.

In VPs AC he read lots of OT records of prophets doing the healings, but no outpouring in the here and now. I can't write the teacher anymore, but I can write this.

[geisha779]

I haven't seen any church or ministry other than twi that seemed to do a BETTER job of connecting with their people on this stuff, but I really think twi's advanced class didn't connect as well as the other 2 classes.

I don't know johniam , I think the Children of God probably connected this stuff in a similar and bizzare way and quite well with their followers.....Worldwide Church of God under Herbert W Armstrong...... and even the People Temple at one time.

There are still some pretty crazy Word of Faith ministries out there...Benny Hinn for example...and he has a huge following and connects these dots for people in a similar manner as TWI. Kenneth Hagin did....he used to teach that through Christ we too had dominion over the Satanic realm...and the weather!! These men relate this to people on a far larger scale than VP. They are/were far more dangerous than VP because they hide in plain sight.

There is no shortage of Word of Faith teachers and preachers out there....and they even offer classes! VP got this garbage somewhere.....and as you yourself say...there is not really much in scripture ....so obviously what is there does have to be seriously extrapolated. Especially if one tries to teach a two week class on it.

VP read the list of the top 5 cults at the AC in 1979 and we were 2nd to the Moonies....VP said "We have to be like AVIS and try harder" you know what showed up shortly after? People started wearing buttons with the TWI logo written in the AVIS typeface reading "We try harder" . He also taught 3 Mile Island never happened...it was a government conspiracy. Did you ever have to cough at the AC? Comfortable with it? We turned the radio on the other day and Joyce Myer was telling people that coughing and fidgeting in the seats during her seminars.... was demonically influenced.

There is nothing new under the sun. If that is what you are looking for...you can find it. Go for it!

Edited March 17, 2011 by geisha779

[OldSkool]

We turned the radio on the other day and Joyce Myer was telling people that coughing and fidgeting in the seats during her seminars.... was demonically influenced.

She said that? D@mn. I just lost a whole bunch of respect for her. I liked her matter of fact mannerisms. Haven't listened to her in a while though. Why o' why do these guys have to come up with weirdness that just jacks up the congregation. I mean maybe the seats are uncomfortable. They sure were in the PWA. Maybe a person has seasonable allergies. That was usually the case coming into sinus valley with all it's molds and pollens for the advanced class in the summer. But the simpletons have to make brain child statements like this that do nothing but make people feel guilty for being human....

ok....exiting soapbox now.

Nothing new under the sun....nothing to see here.....moving along now....

[Twinky]

I don't recall any interest in SIT or any other things like that when I was growing up in the church. In fact, church was so boring that I left. No Pentecostals near where I lived. I wanted to see exciting things like those recorded in the book of Acts. I met a WoW and he showed me that that was still available.

Now had I met someone else from any church that SIT or was convinced that the power demonstrated in Acts was still around, I'd have gone with them.

Now, there seems to have been a revival. Lots of churches where I live expect SIT and other demonstrations of the spirit. They all say that this has become much more common since about the 70s. It's the new normal.

This is nothing to do with TWI influence. It's probably my generation and younger, seeking something other than meaningless ritual and wanting to know God better.

As regards the other manifestations of the spirit - I don't know that TWI got TIP correct, nor WoK or WoW, nor anything else. A person who looks to God and tries to do as would please Him probably operates WoK and WoW much more than they realize.How many times have you "just known" about something, or "just done" something that was exactly right - visited a friend in despair because you were passing the door, or rang just as someone needed an answer to prayer, or such like? You can't legislate for such things. You can't teach them.

The advanced class should probably have laid out specific examples from OT and NT, but made it much more plain that quiet time with God may well be the most important. Just quiet time, so that you could learn to hear that still small voice even more clearly. Not "fellowship" time with others - but space to think and reflect. Alas, as with most stuff at TWI, space to think and reflect was in short supply.

Edited March 17, 2011 by Twinky

[Bolshevik]

I don't think twi's advanced class connected with people as well as the foundational and intermediate classes did. I once heard that out of all the people who took pfal foundational, that only 67% took the intermediate and only 33% took the advanced.

In foundational pfal there was the anticipation of SIT at the end. Class instructors were very precise as to the protocol: what grads should or should not say to new students, the flip charts, the reference books shown to back up 4 crucified, etc. Despite the fact that the class was 34 hours over 3 weeks, most new students in classes I attended were focussed on getting through the class, sometimes even hanging on the edge of their seats. At every 12th session, especially when you had to stand up, there was this excitement in the air that was hard to ignore.

Intermediate class was shorter, but it gave new students the opportunity to give back; to put themselves on the spot. Again, there was the anticipation of successfully doing TIP. Some people got self conscious. They always told grads of foundational pfal not to teach the class to the new students; let VP do that, but many did anyway. In intermediate, IMO, new students SHOULD have gotten some type of practice in their twigs with one or 2 others present beforehand. Anything to get them comfortable at least with the mechanics of speech part of it.

But the advanced class was, to me, more of a social event than a class with practical instruction. The anticipation was just to get there, spend 2 1/2 weeks at a root location, finally get the name tag, etc. Waiting for the class to end was anticlimactic, as far as what you might do at the end of the class. I guess it would have been nice if you could, y'know, cast out a spirit or raise somebody from the dead before the class officially ended, but that didn't happen. It seems like you either trusted someone with your life or you didn't, regardless of whether they were an AC grad.

I posted recently that Jesus MUST have given some instruction to his disciples about devil spirits; how to spot them, what to say or not say to them, and when to pull the trigger (cast them out). Same for raising the dead and other miracles or displays of power, but even in scripture the info is limited. Freely you have received, freely give. Stuff like that, yet it says the disciples rejoiced that they had this power and that it continued after Jesus' resurrection and ascencion. I haven't seen any church or ministry other than twi that seemed to do a BETTER job of connecting with their people on this stuff, but I really think twi's advanced class didn't connect as well as the other 2 classes.

In VPs AC he read lots of OT records of prophets doing the healings, but no outpouring in the here and now. I can't write the teacher anymore, but I can write this.

Lesseee . . . I was SITing when I was what? 4 years old . . . prophecy and all that junk sometime later . . .

I could feel excitement from the hundreds/thousands? of adults concerning the PFAL class. So I took it when I was 12. In the class VP only said things I'd heard before. -----> LETDOWN

Course. . . all the adults were excited I TOOK THE F'ING CLASS . . . "How do you feel? . . . what blessed you???" ummm four crucified? needs/wants? Idunno . . .

The other classes more of the same.

The classes might have been improved if they'd actually provide any useful information. But wayfers are not into "head knowledge" . . . or actually accomplishing anything. The art of maintaining a euphoric trance via the disciplined study of self-delusion . . . quite the skill.

[Twinky]

We turned the radio on the other day and Joyce Myer was telling people that coughing and fidgeting in the seats during her seminars.... was demonically influenced.

That doesn't sound like Joyce Meyer. Are you really quite sure about that, Geisha?

[geisha779]

That doesn't sound like Joyce Meyer. Are you really quite sure about that, Geisha?

Positive Twinky. It was just this past week.

Joyce Meyer is a Word of Faith preacher...along those same lines...same influences.....she also promotes the prosperity gospel.

Edited March 17, 2011 by geisha779

[hiway29]

I have to say that in my experience, sitting through pfal over an absurd 50 times, 'instructing' 2 classes, 'undersheperding' I forget how many people,-the overwhelming atmosphere through the vast majority of the class was a struggle to stay awake, alleviated only in 'spots' like vp's more than conquerors comedy routine. The concentrated hours, several nights a week, after working all day, where you could do nothing but sit quietly, seemed mind numbing. For every student on the edge of his seat over sit, there were 2 wondering what they're expected to do, and pretty much going with the program to get it over with. Yes, I'm cynical, but it's my 2 cents.

[johniam]

quote:

As regards the other manifestations of the spirit - I don't know that TWI got TIP correct, nor WoK or WoW, nor anything else. A person who looks to God and tries to do as would please Him probably operates WoK and WoW much more than they realize.How many times have you "just known" about something, or "just done" something that was exactly right - visited a friend in despair because you were passing the door, or rang just as someone needed an answer to prayer, or such like? You can't legislate for such things. You can't teach them.

I agree that we operate word of knowledge and word of wisdom even discerning of spirits more than we realize. And that you don't have to be a pfal grad to do so.

[waysider]

quote:

I agree that we operate word of knowledge and word of wisdom even discerning of spirits more than we realize. And that you don't have to be a pfal grad to do so.

That's unfortunate news for people who value Wierwille's credibility.

AC--page 10

"Speaking in tongues is prerequisite to revelation."

If he was wrong about that, what else was he wrong about?

[T-Bone]

after reading Hiway29's post i just have to say i pretty much feel the same way.

without addressing the content, sources and plagiarism in PFAL- i don't believe the word "connect" is really an honest description of the relationship between PFAL and grads.I'm just thinking of how classes were put together and conducted. "Connect" may suggest some sort of fluid 2 way traffic - usually in reference to communication happening between electronic equipment or people.

....but i can think of the three "C"s of TWI's strategy with PFAL to entangle followers. It's a 1 way street. grads check in but they don't checkout:

Complicate - take anything easy and build layer upon layer of useless details over it. "To receive anything from God what five things must you know?" for example. run sessions to have the biggest impact on people's personal schedules. save all your questions for the end of the class - usually by then most people forget about them. haven't had much success even after a few years of taking PFAL? well, you need to take the class a few more times then! a subtle theme of my years in residence was "master PFAL".

Confuse - often a byproduct of the first "C" - complicate.while this would get into the content of the class, it also relates how the class was run. students & grads bombarded with mind-numbing repetition "night after night and week after week"

Corner - if the PFAL life support system [i.e. TWI] was good at anything it was good at putting manipulation, deceit and coercion to maximum use! They worked overtime to develop a such a mindset in followers so as to eliminate any possibility of there being another way to live - other than their way! sometimes suggested in teachings but often a subliminal message - any road other than TWI's leads only to oblivion.

~~

in designing a good maze for entrapment, i think the above 3 elements [complicate, confuse, & corner] would be essential....and perhaps could be termed a forced connection - i.e. ensuring that grads STAY connected to TWI/PFAL.....all this is just my opinion, of course.

~~

~~

edited for online users with a slow connection

Edited March 18, 2011 by T-Bone

[Broken Arrow]

I have to say that in my experience, sitting through pfal over an absurd 50 times, 'instructing' 2 classes, 'undersheperding' I forget how many people,-the overwhelming atmosphere through the vast majority of the class was a struggle to stay awake, alleviated only in 'spots' like vp's more than conquerors comedy routine. The concentrated hours, several nights a week, after working all day, where you could do nothing but sit quietly, seemed mind numbing. For every student on the edge of his seat over sit, there were 2 wondering what they're expected to do, and pretty much going with the program to get it over with. Yes, I'm cynical, but it's my 2 cents.

When I sat through PFAL the first time I was not impressed, and I didn't really like it. I was 17 years old, and sitting through 3 hours of lecture was tough. All the grads acted excited, though and since I wanted to belong, I acted excited too. Wimpy, I know, but at 17 one is very concerned about belonging. I made mysef like it, and soon, I really did. The first time I was around VP for any length of time was when I was College Division. I didn't like him. I thought he was a grump and a smart aleck. I'm sure some of that had to do with my own problems with my dad. Nevertheless, as the year progressed, and I heard Craig, Del Duncan, and others talk tearfully talk about our "father in the Word, I began to look on him as THE Man of God, the only hope for mankind. How exciting! Now I was part of something real and important, or so I thought. It's funny, but my initial instincts as a very young man were correct. I totally shut them down. I took years before I was able to see it for what it really was. So, I did the whole program including W.O.W. and Way Corps. By the time it was over, I too was lauding VP and also getting choked up as I thought of him as my father in the Word. After 15 years of ministry involvement, I found myself holding nothing but a handful of sand. I'd been duped.

[johniam]

quote:

The advanced class should probably have laid out specific examples from OT and NT, but made it much more plain that quiet time with God may well be the most important. Just quiet time, so that you could learn to hear that still small voice even more clearly. Not "fellowship" time with others - but space to think and reflect. Alas, as with most stuff at TWI, space to think and reflect was in short supply.

I've been saying to people for awhile that the narrative parts of the NT are concerned with the spreading of the gospel. Jesus led it in the 4 gospels and Peter and Paul led it in Acts. If you want God's take on humans being human you need to look in the OT. As for miracles and healings, sure the gospels and Acts have reference to them, but not in as much detail as in the OT.

When Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead he just "ministered to him" with a prayer near where he was buried. Nothing fancy. Peter's shadow and handkerchiefs and aprons from Paul's body caused healings and miracles in Acts. Whoa!

In the OT you have Elisha healing the Shunamite woman's inability to conceive, then raise her son from the dead by doing something that would be criminal in today's culture. Then he healed Naaman's leprosy. In those you have enough detail about how Elisha walked with God. All those healings took time. You don't get that detail in the NT records, you are left with the conclusion that it takes God's power to do what Jesus, Peter, Paul, and others did.

Jesus connected with his disciples and Paul received the same connection, although he wasn't taught directly by Jesus about ministering healing. Even in the AC syllabus somewhere it says that the lack of consistency of healings and miracles has caused many to doubt God's power, even His existence.

[T-Bone]

PFAL is an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT gospel than the one of the Bible. The major difference between the two being the person upon which the gospel is based.

For Bible fans it's Jesus Christ. For PFAL fans it's vp. After all, vp said "the word" takes the place of the absent Christ. And what is "the word"? the expanded literal translation according to usage [by every true-blue follower of the way] is the interpretation of the Bible as taught by vp in PFAL.

furthermore, the CONSISTENT failure by folks to achieve the promises of PFAL is probably one of the biggest reasons for many to not only doubt God's power and existence but even more so - and i might add rightfully so - the validity of PFAL and the integrity of vp.

the only "connection" vp ever made was when he figured out a consistent way to bilk folks out of anything of value: their money, their time, their energy....their very lives. Get them HOOKED on PFAL....yeah it's probably like a drug addiction - only this is "The PFAL Connection" [any similarity to a movie with a title sounding close or almost alike, starring Gene Hackman and Roy Scheider is probably just a coincidence] . <_<

~~

edited out of respect for Robin Moore

Edited March 19, 2011 by T-Bone

[geisha779]

PFAL is an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT gospel than the one of the Bible. The major difference between the two being the person upon which the gospel is based.

For Bible fans it's Jesus Christ. For PFAL fans it's vp. After all, vp said "the word" takes the place of the absent Christ. And what is "the word"? the expanded literal translation according to usage [by every true-blue follower of the way] is the interpretation of the Bible as taught by vp in PFAL.

furthermore, the CONSISTENT failure by folks to achieve the promises of PFAL is probably one of the biggest reasons for many to not only doubt God's power and existence but even more so - and i might add rightfully so - the validity of PFAL and the integrity of vp.

the only "connection" vp ever made was when he figured out a consistent way to bilk folks out of anything of value: their money, their time, their energy....their very lives. Get them HOOKED on PFAL....yeah it's probably like a drug addiction - only this is "The PFAL Connection" [any similarity to a movie with a title sounding close or almost alike,

Acts chapter 8 gives us a great example of a true and false conversion.....The Ethiopian Eunuch and Simon the Sorcerer....no wonder VP said Simon was saved.

[Broken Arrow]

Acts chapter 8 gives us a great example of a true and false conversion.....The Ethiopian Eunuch and Simon the Sorcerer....no wonder VP said Simon was saved.

I think he got this from v. 13 where it says, "Simon believed and was baptized."

[johniam]

quote:

For Bible fans it's Jesus Christ. For PFAL fans it's vp. After all, vp said "the word" takes the place of the absent Christ. And what is "the word"? the expanded literal translation according to usage [by every true-blue follower of the way] is the interpretation of the Bible as taught by vp in PFAL.

You could say that about ANY Christian denomination. "Bible fans"??? If Jesus isn't absent, then WHERE DOES HE LIVE? No BS, give me a street address.

quote: furthermore, the CONSISTENT failure by folks to achieve the promises of PFAL is probably one of the biggest reasons for many to not only doubt God's power and existence but even more so - and i might add rightfully so - the validity of PFAL and the integrity of vp.

What failure? I get prayers answered all the time. You?

[Broken Arrow]

quote:

For Bible fans it's Jesus Christ. For PFAL fans it's vp. After all, vp said "the word" takes the place of the absent Christ. And what is "the word"? the expanded literal translation according to usage [by every true-blue follower of the way] is the interpretation of the Bible as taught by vp in PFAL.

You could say that about ANY Christian denomination. "Bible fans"??? If Jesus isn't absent, then WHERE DOES HE LIVE? No BS, give me a street address.

quote: furthermore, the CONSISTENT failure by folks to achieve the promises of PFAL is probably one of the biggest reasons for many to not only doubt God's power and existence but even more so - and i might add rightfully so - the validity of PFAL and the integrity of vp.

What failure? I get prayers answered all the time. You?

Well, for starters Jesus lives in those who are born again, "Christ in you..."; He is also with us, "I am with you always" and "I will never leave you or forsake you", he is seated at the right hand of the Father; He is with us through the Holy Spirit; He is in the presence of God making intercession for us; the list goes on. One misses out on a lot if they believe Jesus is not present. It's from this Jesus is absent mindset that people like VP and LCM can consider themselves "The men of God for our day and our time". Why is that? Because if you take Jesus Christ out of the equation, then the Kingdom is solely in hands of men with nothing to be accountable to. Tyranny rules. Corinthians, as you know, says "We are ambassadors for Christ...." Yet in TWI we knew very little of who Christ was. How could we then be his ambassadors? We couldn't talk to him, we couldn't even talk about him that much. If you did, someone would soon come along (like me), correct you and say that The Word was the center of Christianity. But Christianity is more than stark axioms, it is about relationship. Some may say that Jesus' sacrifice merely gave us access to the Father. True enough, but let's not forget that Jesus said that no man comes to the Father but by him. We always thought that was simply discussing the new birth but Jesus says no one actually can come to the Father but through him. Here's the rub with TWI teaching, Jesus Christ is absent, the holy spirit is an entity that can actually be operated by us. The result being that we men are in control not only of this world, but of God himself. He'll answer any prayer we throw up as long as we're focused and we believe.

[socks]

"If Jesus isn't absent, then WHERE DOES HE LIVE?"

That's really the crux of Christianity. The N. T makes the rather obvious but astute observation in II Cor. that we don't know Jesus Christ "after the flesh" any longer. Many of the earliest followers had or knew someone who had. Christ's ascension in Acts - there's a fundamental relocation of the resurrected Jesus.

Jesus is quoted as saying that He would leave His followers but come back. He spoke of always being with them, amongst them, in their midst as they continued to follow Him. He spoke of a "comforter".After the resurrection He showed up looking much like He had, recognizable, and "appeared" in another "form" at other times. What all of that means I can't say definitively but the progression of events of His life, death, resurrection, time after that and the ascension follows a path of being here on earth, dying, returning to life and finally "leaving".

He had said that would happen and it did however the leaving wasn't meant to be a gone for good, remember what I"ve said because I won't be here to remind you end of story deal. There is an element of that to the records that speak of this but again - there's the "comforter" that He would send.

So yes, I would say He's "gone" in that He clearly "left".

Where is He" The Bible's both figurative and literal on that - "heavenlies", "seated at the right hand of God", "resurrected".

I think - I'll say cautiously because i don't intend it to anyone here specifically - that when someone has the sense that He's absent and gone and not around, they probably don't know Him today - that would seem rather obvious. A person may read about Him, like Him, quote what He said and try to do as He did but not know Him in a real sense.

"Absent". No, not really. The bible would provide a means to learn and know about Jesus Christ, God, the whole deal. The Bible can't logically be a replacement though -

- first there's no need - Christ isn't literally "absent" - a truly bad word for His current state and status amongst His followers. Leaving and being gone-for-good no more - that's absent. "Everyone who's here, say HERE!". The absent Christ wouldn't respond.

Yet Christ lives today and is in and amongst the Church. He's not absent. - nothing at all like that. "Christ in you", Christ amongst His followers, filled and comforted, known by their love and faith, a living testament to the living God and His son Jesus Christ.

- The bible as "The Word of God" speaks to a lot more than Jesus Christ. I know - everyone since Day Two has riffed on JC being the pivotal point of the ages and the entire point of everything from sliced bread to toasters but - seriously, "God" is the center piece of His Word - Jesus Christ's relationship to God is the pivotal point. Which brings up a whole lot of really interesting things about "who" Jesus Christ is then, now and future.

Anyhoo - I do think the entire "absent Christ" in PFAL has been misplayed by many people over the years. I never understood that to mean: absent and gone, now read the bible. PFAL clearly sets out that the Bible declares Christ, who declares God - to us. There's a progression and a path - Christ is The Way - the way to what? It gets somewhat convoluted throughout PFAL but I never took it to mean that absent meant gone and not hmmm, literally around.

"Different" - that's covered in the N. T.

In and amongst us - that is too.

A changing field of view and one that will continue to come into focus as other changes occur - yes. That's the way I see it.

To add - I think a lot of "Christianity" becomes too focused on the process instead of the end result. We get knit picky about doing every little thing right and getting lined up correctly at the Door and forget we're supposed to be inside the House, so to speak. Living the relationship. It's as if we want to be experts at the process, when the process is one that really involves living the reality we're in. Absent - present - all of that - if we're actually living and experiencing our relationship with God through Christ that doesn't make sense.

-

[T-Bone]

Acts 8:13 - Simon himself believed and was baptized - could be interpreted either way.

in the context "believe" could signify Simon's intellectual assent to an idea rather than a commitment to God. what makes me suspicious of Simon's faith being genuine is the details that suggest the motivation he had for salvation. v13 says he stayed close to Philip watching the great signs and wonders taking place; culminating in v.18 when Simon saw the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands - he offered them money so he could have that power.

and in the dialog with Peter following, it seems to render meaningless his earlier confession of faith and baptism [btw, Luke the author of Acts may have stated both as a matter of observing the outward formalities that were witnessed]:

- v.21 Peter said to Simon he has no part nor lot in this matter, his heart is not right before God

- and v.22 was told to repent, pray to the Lord that the intent of his heart may be forgiven.

i'm not one to rush to judgment on whether or not Simon was really saved - but i do think this passage makes a big deal over one's reason for coming to the faith. i figure it has to be a simple procedure - so whoever desires salvation may come. what has my curiosity in this incident is just what did Simon want to begin with. Did he desire a relationship with the Lord - or just saw this new thing as the business opportunity of a lifetime? perhaps Monty Python's screenplay for this scene in Acts would have Simon saying "methinks this doth have multilevel marketing written all over it."

....and i'd like to add i do see Geisha's point. after reading her post i immediately thought of vp taking BG Leonard's holy spirit class and then coming up with his "own" one-stop-shopping package - - PFAL..... it seems ol' vp always had a "Simon's eye" for other folks' work: Bullinger, Kenyon, Leonard, Stiles, etc......uhm yeah - here's how vp connects the dots - P . F . A . L .

~~

there's a similar case involving bad motives and deception in Acts 5 with Ananias & Sapphira. i think they were true Christians but got side-tracked by temptation. maybe there's a common idea in Acts 5 & 8 that relates to this thread on "connect"....honesty and good motives are absolutely essential to communion with God....whereas, deception and ill intent could prevent or sever the connection.

[geisha779]

I think he got this from v. 13 where it says, "Simon believed and was baptized."

I know. :)

Simon rode along for awhile, in the church.....he even had Phillip convinced he was the genuine thing. Like VP, Simon also "left" the church to start his own "ministry" and took many, many, many others with him. We even have a word we use in theology which is associated with Simon Magus. Simony.

Maybe Simon looked around the congregation and saw people defeated...oh wait no...he saw the power of the Holy Spirit and tried to buy it....it was VP who tried to sell it along with the idea of a more abundant life. That is a form of Simony. Too bad he denied the Holy Spirit before trying to sell it to us. It would have worked better if VP actually knew the Holy Spirit.

A.W. Pink writing on Saving Faith does a great job with this section of scripture. Well worth a read if you can find it.

Peter told Simon, "Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God . . . I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity" Pretty harsh words. If one believes we are harsh here about VP....check out Irenaeus sometime...I think he called Simon the father of all heretics.

I just believed VP and never really looked into it myself. I worked PFAL instead of drawing my own conclusions while reading the bible. That "foundational" thinking we got from PFAL seems pretty difficult to overcome. Sometimes now while reading I wonder....how could I possibly have missed all of this?

[geisha779]

If Jesus isn't absent, then WHERE DOES HE LIVE? No BS, give me a street address.

This has to be one of the most heartbreaking posts I have read on here.

I know from experience where it comes from and why we ran into this kind of problem. By not understanding from scripture, how the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit work as One. This is where that kind of theology leads. To this kind of comment.

Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

How? Through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

One God.

Edited March 20, 2011 by geisha779

[T-Bone]

quote:

For Bible fans it's Jesus Christ. For PFAL fans it's vp. After all, vp said "the word" takes the place of the absent Christ. And what is "the word"? the expanded literal translation according to usage [by every true-blue follower of the way] is the interpretation of the Bible as taught by vp in PFAL.

You could say that about ANY Christian denomination. "Bible fans"??? If Jesus isn't absent, then WHERE DOES HE LIVE? No BS, give me a street address.

quote: furthermore, the CONSISTENT failure by folks to achieve the promises of PFAL is probably one of the biggest reasons for many to not only doubt God's power and existence but even more so - and i might add rightfully so - the validity of PFAL and the integrity of vp.

What failure? I get prayers answered all the time. You?

there's only a few organizations that i know of who are big fans of PFAL and hold vp's interpretation of the Bible in such high regard - and that's TWI and the offshoots/splinter groups.

i think your question of Jesus' whereabouts was answered by Broken Arrow - and very well put i might add

Well, for starters Jesus lives in those who are born again, "Christ in you..."; He is also with us, "I am with you always" and "I will never leave you or forsake you", he is seated at the right hand of the Father; He is with us through the Holy Spirit; He is in the presence of God making intercession for us; the list goes on. One misses out on a lot if they believe Jesus is not present. It's from this Jesus is absent mindset that people like VP and LCM can consider themselves "The men of God for our day and our time". Why is that? Because if you take Jesus Christ out of the equation, then the Kingdom is solely in hands of men with nothing to be accountable to. Tyranny rules. Corinthians, as you know, says "We are ambassadors for Christ...." Yet in TWI we knew very little of who Christ was. How could we then be his ambassadors? We couldn't talk to him, we couldn't even talk about him that much. If you did, someone would soon come along (like me), correct you and say that The Word was the center of Christianity. But Christianity is more than stark axioms, it is about relationship. Some may say that Jesus' sacrifice merely gave us access to the Father. True enough, but let's not forget that Jesus said that no man comes to the Father but by him. We always thought that was simply discussing the new birth but Jesus says no one actually can come to the Father but through him. Here's the rub with TWI teaching, Jesus Christ is absent, the holy spirit is an entity that can actually be operated by us. The result being that we men are in control not only of this world, but of God himself. He'll answer any prayer we throw up as long as we're focused and we believe.

~~

"If Jesus isn't absent, then WHERE DOES HE LIVE?"

That's really the crux of Christianity. The N. T makes the rather obvious but astute observation in II Cor. that we don't know Jesus Christ "after the flesh" any longer. Many of the earliest followers had or knew someone who had. Christ's ascension in Acts - there's a fundamental relocation of the resurrected Jesus.

Jesus is quoted as saying that He would leave His followers but come back. He spoke of always being with them, amongst them, in their midst as they continued to follow Him. He spoke of a "comforter".After the resurrection He showed up looking much like He had, recognizable, and "appeared" in another "form" at other times. What all of that means I can't say definitively but the progression of events of His life, death, resurrection, time after that and the ascension follows a path of being here on earth, dying, returning to life and finally "leaving".

He had said that would happen and it did however the leaving wasn't meant to be a gone for good, remember what I"ve said because I won't be here to remind you end of story deal. There is an element of that to the records that speak of this but again - there's the "comforter" that He would send.

So yes, I would say He's "gone" in that He clearly "left".

Where is He" The Bible's both figurative and literal on that - "heavenlies", "seated at the right hand of God", "resurrected".

I think - I'll say cautiously because i don't intend it to anyone here specifically - that when someone has the sense that He's absent and gone and not around, they probably don't know Him today - that would seem rather obvious. A person may read about Him, like Him, quote what He said and try to do as He did but not know Him in a real sense.

"Absent". No, not really. The bible would provide a means to learn and know about Jesus Christ, God, the whole deal. The Bible can't logically be a replacement though -

- first there's no need - Christ isn't literally "absent" - a truly bad word for His current state and status amongst His followers. Leaving and being gone-for-good no more - that's absent. "Everyone who's here, say HERE!". The absent Christ wouldn't respond.

Yet Christ lives today and is in and amongst the Church. He's not absent. - nothing at all like that. "Christ in you", Christ amongst His followers, filled and comforted, known by their love and faith, a living testament to the living God and His son Jesus Christ.

- The bible as "The Word of God" speaks to a lot more than Jesus Christ. I know - everyone since Day Two has riffed on JC being the pivotal point of the ages and the entire point of everything from sliced bread to toasters but - seriously, "God" is the center piece of His Word - Jesus Christ's relationship to God is the pivotal point. Which brings up a whole lot of really interesting things about "who" Jesus Christ is then, now and future.

Anyhoo - I do think the entire "absent Christ" in PFAL has been misplayed by many people over the years. I never understood that to mean: absent and gone, now read the bible. PFAL clearly sets out that the Bible declares Christ, who declares God - to us. There's a progression and a path - Christ is The Way - the way to what? It gets somewhat convoluted throughout PFAL but I never took it to mean that absent meant gone and not hmmm, literally around.

"Different" - that's covered in the N. T.

In and amongst us - that is too.

A changing field of view and one that will continue to come into focus as other changes occur - yes. That's the way I see it.

To add - I think a lot of "Christianity" becomes too focused on the process instead of the end result. We get knit picky about doing every little thing right and getting lined up correctly at the Door and forget we're supposed to be inside the House, so to speak. Living the relationship. It's as if we want to be experts at the process, when the process is one that really involves living the reality we're in. Absent - present - all of that - if we're actually living and experiencing our relationship with God through Christ that doesn't make sense.

great post Socks - the only thing i would add to what you said about PFAL and Christ is that in the class vp may have started out trying to set biblical standards on a wide array of topics - but considering how many doctrines/policies/programs deviated so far off the mark over the course of time - it seems reasonable to me that one cannot take PFAL at face value. What you see ain't what we got when you build a life or a "ministry" around it.

i understand what you're saying about how vp taught Christ in the class - He's the one great subject of the Bible and all that....but Broken Arrow's post got me thinking of how year after year in the way, more and more PFAL complicated crap got piled on to the simple things i only caught a glimpse of in PFAL...like Jesus Christ. I came out of the class with an insatiable appetite to read & reread the Bible especially the gospels. But my twig coordinator discouraged me - reminding me that's not written to us and recommending i spend more time reviewing the PFAL material. Jesus Christ for all intents and purposes was slowly and subtly relegated to the back seat....at first....sorry to say, but i think He got the boot somewhere along The Way Ministry. may have caught a glimpse of Him once by the side of the road while i was hitchhiking to LEAD.

anyway, i'm of the opinion that the lordship of Jesus Christ, communion with Jesus Christ, the teachings of Jesus Christ....the person of Jesus Christ was eclipsed by an insidious mindset and practical application standard that developed in many way ministry followers.

...a teacher may not have control over how the students will understand and apply the teaching - but alas, vp tried to cover that one too, in the way he lived his life - for me, one word describes it - hypocrisy. we've discussed this on other threads about vp teaching the 2 great commandments in PFAL. yeah, that played out real well....anyway, i'm not intending to rag on your post - just saying our difference of opinion on this is a relative thing - dependent upon experiences and perspective. peace, brother - i have great respect for your input at grease spot! :)

[socks]

T-Bone, I understand what you're saying. And it's one of the most confounding things that in the midst of all of that read the bible, read the bible read the danged bible clatter that the very people saying it and reading it could become afraid that the "living" Christ will somehow possess them and be of the wrong "god", even a "Jesus" spirit speaking of the Advanced Class.

Better that He be somehow distant? than what the N.T. so passionately holds forth - that He is alive and well and indwelling in each of us with a presence that is - should be - knowable and identifiable.

This is one of the most driving under and over lying concepts of the N. T. IMO. The shepherd and His sheep, Israel and others that would be called. An inheritance not of the land of the O.T. promises and from those not born out of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, a lineage of righteous faith now established in Christ in a temple not made with hands.

His sheep will listen, hear His voice and know Him. I guess non-sheep won't. I'm not in charge of Report Cards. But if Christ isn't "Here" it's not His fault, y'know?

[Watered Garden]

Would someone please define this evil, foul, loathsome "Word of Faith ministry?" What do they teach?