"I was trying to make the point that you don't go before God's throne demanding".
You are right Socrates. There is a verse, Hebrews 4:16 that says:
"Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need".
It does say to come boldly to God's throne, but it sure doesnt say anything about demanding. It says that we can obtain MERCY which to me means that even though we are allowed to even approach His Throne, we should do it humbly!
"I was trying to make the point that you don't go before God's throne demanding".
You are right Socrates. There is a verse, Hebrews 4:16 that says:
"Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need".
It does say to come boldly to God's throne, but it sure doesnt say anything about demanding. It says that we can obtain MERCY which to me means that even though we are allowed to even approach His Throne, we should do it humbly!
Common sense. The act of demanding suggests the demandor (you) is greater than the demandee (God). No way can that be right, except in Saint Vic's mind.
VP didn't think he was entitled to demand from God like God was his subordinate, he was promoting confidence toward God rather than groveling and sniveling like he saw many people do during his upbringing.
VP didn't think he was entitled to demand from God like God was his subordinate, he was promoting confidence toward God rather than groveling and sniveling like he saw many people do during his upbringing.
He saw people groveling and sniveling? How do we know that?
Here's what it says on page 3 of PFAL:
"As I looked about me at communities where I had served and among the ministers with whom I had worked, the abundant life was frequently not evident."
The "groveling and sniveling" is a subjective interpretation on your part of what was actually said.
But I do remember being taught that the "thanking God first for something He had already promised" was a better way to pray, as opposed to asking for something that He had already said yes to. You know it was like an answer to the Begging Prayer. You know: Oh PLEASE God can I have this happen in my life? I need good Health and if only I am found worthy would you PLEASE help me? I think that some of that thnking existed out in Christian land and with a humble attitude which I tried to have I thnk the Thank You prayer could be okay to do wouldn't it? But then I remember people yelling God I just thank you for making that red light turn green! And if it turned green then it was considerd a miracle which I never thought was. What I hated was all the formulas. The 4 Ds of doulos doins and all. Just follow this formula and viola! Seemed Canned to me.
VP didn't think he was entitled to demand from God like God was his subordinate, he was promoting confidence toward God rather than groveling and sniveling like he saw many people do during his upbringing.
Well, he never said the words the God was his subordinate, but he definitely taught that. He taught God as a principle to be applied. "Know what's available, How to Receive...etc." Have that recipe correct and "presto" God grants your prayer. You know who was sniveling? Us. We were doing exactly what we made fun of. We said we were coming boldly before the throne while all the time wondering if we were believing enough, or was it available, do I know what to do with it after I've got it. What's the difference. VP's doctrine was poison.
VP didn't think he was entitled to demand from God like God was his subordinate, he was promoting confidence toward God rather than groveling and sniveling like he saw many people do during his upbringing.
Not really, we had to have all our i's dotted and t's crossed didn't we? We had to know what was available....how to receive it......what to do with it....we had to picture it...declare it...act like we had it....seems like an awful lot to go through if one has confidence in God. I think it was more about having confidence in ourselves....after all, with GOD all things are possible. With us, it was pretty much dependent on our believing. . .
. . . . and when it failed to "manifest" itself it was we who were never good enough...
I suppose a lot of things vary according to where you were geographically, but, I, for one, heard people, on numerous occasions, both demand (and command) that God do whatever it was they happened to be praying for. Even those Bank of God checkbooks that they sold in the bookstore were a variation of this concept, as was the "name it and claim it" thinking that became so prevalent. In fact, in some circles, it was seen as a sign of weak believing to "ask" for something rather than "claim" it. I think this actually has its roots in the PFAL class, in the session where Wierwille pokes fun at people who still pray The Lord's Prayer instead of recognizing various scriptures in the epistles. Ultimately, it all comes back to the pseudo "law of believing". It's (Whatever you are praying for) already yours and you will manifest it in proportion to your degree of believing. No God really needed because "It works for saint and sinner alike.". (cough)
Those were called "MOUNTAINTOP CHECKBOOKS",
at least when I bought one.
I really have an opportunity when someone uses the wrong jargon...
for some reason i thought of the session in PFAL where vp talks about rightly dividing - and he says something about how his wife can rightly divide pie.....which makes me wonder if TWI could ever rightly divide a fiscal pie chart...maybe it looked something like this:
98% Board of Trustees salary
1.48% general maintenance for property and other stuff
.48% publishing and printing of books, magazines and Green Cards
.03% retainer fee for an opportunity-solving tax accountant
Its one of the marks of a cult to have its own lingo to describe things.
Loading the language, I believe it's called. Where the definition of a word is changed to mean something different (in order to control the thought processes of the 'cult' devotees.) ... Hhmmm, mark of a 'cult'. ...
... kinda like the term 'cult' itself. A term which used to neutrally mean "A group of people who follow a person, idea, or thing." ... A _neutral_ term. ... Until the past few decades, that is.
Now it's (largely) an emotional term. A hyped term. ... A loaded term.
for some reason i thought of the session in PFAL where vp talks about rightly dividing - and he says something about how his wife can rightly divide pie.....which makes me wonder if TWI could ever rightly divide a fiscal pie chart...maybe it looked something like this:
98% Board of Trustees salary
1.48% general maintenance for property and other stuff
.48% publishing and printing of books, magazines and Green Cards
.03% retainer fee for an opportunity-solving tax accountant
.01% biblical research
You missed payout of lawyers for pending lawsuits and payouts on settled lawsuits.
The law of believing says what you think about the most you become, right?
If that's the case, we'd all be female. After all, what's usually on the mind of a 14 year old boy?
SoCrates
Now, THAT'S funny!
geesh! can't you just renew your mind to the wrong misnomer or something
Hey! You don't renew your mind to a wrong misnomer, you renew your mind to the Word, the Word, and nothing by my, er, the Word! You're getting sloppy in your jargon! Say it wrong properly or don't say it wrong at all!
I always thought that was funny, "the wrong misnomer". A misnomer is something that is wrong, right? So VP must have been saying that whatever the subject was was a "wrong" or differnt misnomer but not the misnomer at hand. I dont know it just didnt seem to make sense.
I always thought that was funny, "the wrong misnomer". A misnomer is something that is wrong, right? So VP must have been saying that whatever the subject was was a "wrong" or differnt misnomer but not the misnomer at hand. I dont know it just didnt seem to make sense.
A misnomer is something that is misnamed. (definition)
For example: the moon isn't really a moon. When you compare moon-planet ratios it comes out too large. This is actually a biplanetary system: Terra-Luna. However, we still refer to it as the moon.
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tonyzamboni
"I was trying to make the point that you don't go before God's throne demanding".
You are right Socrates. There is a verse, Hebrews 4:16 that says:
"Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need".
It does say to come boldly to God's throne, but it sure doesnt say anything about demanding. It says that we can obtain MERCY which to me means that even though we are allowed to even approach His Throne, we should do it humbly!
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excathedra
i was worried you were having some opportunities
i thought you were a wayferhead and i wanted to pray for you :)
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So_crates
Common sense. The act of demanding suggests the demandor (you) is greater than the demandee (God). No way can that be right, except in Saint Vic's mind.
SoCrates
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johniam
VP didn't think he was entitled to demand from God like God was his subordinate, he was promoting confidence toward God rather than groveling and sniveling like he saw many people do during his upbringing.
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Ham
How do you know that?
He expected and demanded respect, and money from people..
wasn't he a "welfare" mog?
entitled?
and his offspring as well?
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waysider
He saw people groveling and sniveling? How do we know that?
Here's what it says on page 3 of PFAL:
"As I looked about me at communities where I had served and among the ministers with whom I had worked, the abundant life was frequently not evident."
The "groveling and sniveling" is a subjective interpretation on your part of what was actually said.
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tonyzamboni
But I do remember being taught that the "thanking God first for something He had already promised" was a better way to pray, as opposed to asking for something that He had already said yes to. You know it was like an answer to the Begging Prayer. You know: Oh PLEASE God can I have this happen in my life? I need good Health and if only I am found worthy would you PLEASE help me? I think that some of that thnking existed out in Christian land and with a humble attitude which I tried to have I thnk the Thank You prayer could be okay to do wouldn't it? But then I remember people yelling God I just thank you for making that red light turn green! And if it turned green then it was considerd a miracle which I never thought was. What I hated was all the formulas. The 4 Ds of doulos doins and all. Just follow this formula and viola! Seemed Canned to me.
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waysider
Freeze-dried God.
Just add water.
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Broken Arrow
Well, he never said the words the God was his subordinate, but he definitely taught that. He taught God as a principle to be applied. "Know what's available, How to Receive...etc." Have that recipe correct and "presto" God grants your prayer. You know who was sniveling? Us. We were doing exactly what we made fun of. We said we were coming boldly before the throne while all the time wondering if we were believing enough, or was it available, do I know what to do with it after I've got it. What's the difference. VP's doctrine was poison.
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geisha779
Not really, we had to have all our i's dotted and t's crossed didn't we? We had to know what was available....how to receive it......what to do with it....we had to picture it...declare it...act like we had it....seems like an awful lot to go through if one has confidence in God. I think it was more about having confidence in ourselves....after all, with GOD all things are possible. With us, it was pretty much dependent on our believing. . .
. . . . and when it failed to "manifest" itself it was we who were never good enough...
That isn't faith or confidence in God.
--------------------------------------------
Edit....
OH...just saw BA said that...sorry.
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Broken Arrow
Don't be sorry. You said it very well. :)
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So_crates
The law of believing says what you think about the most you become, right?
If that's the case, we'd all be female. After all, what's usually on the mind of a 14 year old boy?
SoCrates
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T-Bone
then surely will come to pass the saying "gynecologist examine thyself"
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WordWolf
Those were called "MOUNTAINTOP CHECKBOOKS",
at least when I bought one.
I really have an opportunity when someone uses the wrong jargon...
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tonyzamboni
Yeah! Get it right! Hahaha! :)
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T-Bone
geesh! can't you just renew your mind to the wrong misnomer or something
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tonyzamboni
Yeah! Renew your nous!
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waysider
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T-Bone
for some reason i thought of the session in PFAL where vp talks about rightly dividing - and he says something about how his wife can rightly divide pie.....which makes me wonder if TWI could ever rightly divide a fiscal pie chart...maybe it looked something like this:
98% Board of Trustees salary
1.48% general maintenance for property and other stuff
.48% publishing and printing of books, magazines and Green Cards
.03% retainer fee for an opportunity-solving tax accountant
.01% biblical research
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GarthP2000
Loading the language, I believe it's called. Where the definition of a word is changed to mean something different (in order to control the thought processes of the 'cult' devotees.) ... Hhmmm, mark of a 'cult'. ...
... kinda like the term 'cult' itself. A term which used to neutrally mean "A group of people who follow a person, idea, or thing." ... A _neutral_ term. ... Until the past few decades, that is.
Now it's (largely) an emotional term. A hyped term. ... A loaded term.
<_<
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So_crates
You missed payout of lawyers for pending lawsuits and payouts on settled lawsuits.
SoCrates
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Broken Arrow
Now, THAT'S funny!
Hey!
You don't renew your mind to a wrong misnomer, you renew your mind to the Word, the Word, and nothing by my, er, the Word! You're getting sloppy in your jargon! Say it wrong properly or don't say it wrong at all!
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tonyzamboni
I always thought that was funny, "the wrong misnomer". A misnomer is something that is wrong, right? So VP must have been saying that whatever the subject was was a "wrong" or differnt misnomer but not the misnomer at hand. I dont know it just didnt seem to make sense.
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So_crates
A misnomer is something that is misnamed. (definition)
For example: the moon isn't really a moon. When you compare moon-planet ratios it comes out too large. This is actually a biplanetary system: Terra-Luna. However, we still refer to it as the moon.
SoCrates
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