After I left da vey, I continued the habit of collecting translations. Right now the whole bottom shelf of my bookshelf has various translatioins, from a companion bible to Greek interliniars. All are collecting dust.
The only thing I've kept close to me--moving from the north to Florida and back to the north again--was the companion bible. But then my mother gave it to me as a Christmas present in my Way days.
It was a few years before I read my bible. I didn't even have a real interest. I still believed I had learned the truth, I still fully accepted Way doctrine(it was doctrine we learned), but I didn't have an interest in reading. When I tried, it was all jumbled. I still was disgusted and confused with the whole thing.
Eventually, I didn't even really care if there was a God. I relied heavily on my ability to SIT for salvation! If there was a God, I was in, I was golden.:)
But, those pesky circumstances....my kids had friends who were involved in church and Christian camp....so my kids started going. I actually helped run a large youth group while unsure about God, but if there was a God He was just like what I learned in TWI.
Somehow, I ended up around some pretty learned people. You want to talk about embarrassing experiences...talk about how many crucified, My God, My God, Are the Dead Alive Now, the gospel itself and the meaning of salvation along with SIT and more..... with people who actually know what they are talking about. Not pretty.
To add insult to injury...they were kind in their pity. I was not kind in my superior knowledge. I humiliated myself more than once. Still makes me a bit queasy.
I was so sure I knew. . . . and then I wasn't so sure. Then I got curious...and then I read!
I have a hard time trying to read the Bible. I see some particular scripture and think about how I listened to some teacher or another get all excited about what the verse or word REALLY meant. Then I think about how that whole particular teaching was actually based on flawed research and didn't reflect the message they were trying to convey at all. Like finding out there is no Easter Bunny. Can you really make yourself believe in him again?
well, after I hauled my over 3000 books to the city dump all I did was read the bible and....oh wait a minute....ya, I don't have 3000 books or even know where the city dump is, and just how big of a truck would hold 3000 books and how many shelves in how large a room...drifting along now...
anyway, after the way international, try as I might I have no interest in picking up the bible. I hope that changes someday, or perhaps there is something I can do to change? I dunno. There was a time when reading the bible was enjoyable and exciting for me when I first became involved with the way international. Then, though their programs and legalistic structures I allowed that part of me to die. Sad to say. And they claim they teach how to enjoy reading the bible...hell, the taught me by example how to NOT enjoy reading the bible.
Waysider: You are not the only one who was taught to put Jesus Christ and the Bible into an "Easter Bunny" category, and I trust vp et al will be (have been?) held accountable for their work in this regard when they meet Him face to face.
That being said.... The Bible remains for me Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth. And 2011, as the 400th anniversary of KJV, so it seems to me that this thread is right up to date with what Christians are musing about on other places of the web. You can also get a 1611 copy of the thing at Amazon.com. I have given 1611 versions to hard-to-reach intellectual friends and a family member who could be intrigued by the historical/intellectual value of the thing. I especially like the expanded introduction of the 1611 which demonstrates such reverence and awe for the Lord and His holiness and the meekness of the translators before the Lord, which is often missing, in my opinion, in other translations which emphasize the credentials of the translators over those of the Author.
I find myself at home in kjv. It's my conversation piece so to speak. I am hard of hearing physically, and only the Lord would always hear me and I could hear and understand Him. Many of the notes in my old Bibles are "out" dated, but the Bibles are reminders of memorable teachings punctuated by Holy Spirit emphasis (Del and others had that Way about their words :) ) I find that the door between my heart and the Lord's is often most quickly opened by kjv language.
As I have said at other tables in this Greasespot Cafe, The Message by Eugene Peterson is been another good version I love. Eugene Peterson developed his translation as he was translating God's Word into a language those of his youth ministry could understand. It's in a modern language with a depth of understanding of the heart of the Lord, in my opinion.
I also, as others, have gone through a period of comeuppance when trying to communicate with church members of other churches. Trying to fit into the general body of Christ coming out of a cult requires much carving off of sharp edges, depending upon the depth of cult-level thinking. My cult mentality (and the arrogance etc. thereof) was pretty deep, but God has had good kind mercy upon me. I still have church, I still have the Bible, and most importantly, I still have Him, for which I am so very thankful.
My goal now is relationship, both with the Holy Spirit and with others, and all versions of the Bible can be used for that. I generally leave my battered old Bibles at home or in the car lest people get the wrong impression and mistakenly think I am some kind of Bible scholar.
Somehow, I ended up around some pretty learned people. You want to talk about embarrassing experiences...talk about how many crucified, My God, My God, Are the Dead Alive Now, the gospel itself and the meaning of salvation along with SIT and more..... with people who actually know what they are talking about. Not pretty.
To add insult to injury...they were kind in their pity. I was not kind in my superior knowledge. I humiliated myself more than once. Still makes me a bit queasy.
That was/is the hardest part for me. I was absolutely sure that "I knew that I knew that I knew" and was very arrogant about it. When I could finally wrap my head around the idea that I really knew zilch, things actually got better for me even though it was a very hard pill to swallow. (VPW may have been right when he said '"its what you learn after you think that you know it all that counts").
It is still very hard for me to formulate any in depth biblical opinions because I have been convinced that I was so right, when I was so so wrong.
I dont read the bible nearly as much as I once did and to be honest I really dont care that much about esoteric questions to argue about anymore. Thankfully Ive also been exposed to some very learned people in christian circles.
Their example of living is enough to show me alot, I really dont need to know where the commas go, or memorize a zillion verses in order to feel complete anymore
Well...I was never in TWI but I was turned on to the bible by somebody who was. She sent me a class on CD produced by way-offshoot STF entitled "A New Life in Christ". I honestly found the class to be fascinating. (It helped that the two speakers, JW Schoenheit and his sister Susan, were excellent.) And if it wasn't for that class I would not have bothered to read the bible. (At this point I'm almost done with Revelation. It took me about a year and a half, through varying levels of motivation and interest.)
However, after I found the GSC, and after participating in bible discussion forums, I rejected all the questionable Way doctrine. When I brought up topics like "four crucified" and "six denials" in other discussion groups, nobody (save for the 1-in-100 bible scholar or clergyman who has bothered to read Bullinger's footnotes in The Companion Bible) had ever even heard of those interpretations. It made me wonder.
So... I've had the somewhat rare experience of reading and interpreting the bible on my own (technically I'm Catholic but, bad daddy that I am, I don't go to church with the wife and kids) with no personal guidance or instruction whatsoever, save for the study notes in my NIV and various other commentary that I've read on the internet.
Anyway...oddly, or sadly, or ironically -- whatever -- I initially started reading the bible to try and pull myself closer to Christianity. But after having read it, I now wonder if I'm really a Christian at all. I mean, if being a Christian means that you have to believe that God ordered Moses and the Levites to execute 3,000; or Joshua to obliterate the Gibeonites (or dozens of other atrocities in the OT) then I don't think I'm on board with that.
What helped me when I came out of TWI was reading other Christian authors besides TWI material. Also, using a good devotional has been helpful. You don't have to agree with everything, just read it like you'd read a novel or something.
That was/is the hardest part for me. I was absolutely sure that "I knew that I knew that I knew" and was very arrogant about it. When I could finally wrap my head around the idea that I really knew zilch, things actually got better for me even though it was a very hard pill to swallow. (VPW may have been right when he said '"its what you learn after you think that you know it all that counts").
It is still very hard for me to formulate any in depth biblical opinions because I have been convinced that I was so right, when I was so so wrong.
I dont read the bible nearly as much as I once did and to be honest I really dont care that much about esoteric questions to argue about anymore. Thankfully Ive also been exposed to some very learned people in christian circles.
Their example of living is enough to show me alot, I really dont need to know where the commas go, or memorize a zillion verses in order to feel complete anymore
I don't even tell too many people about TWI anymore and it isn't that I am trying to be dishonest, at times it is just too much to explain. Some people just don't understand, but then again, how could they? Most of the time I don't understand it all..... that is why I like to come here.
One of the worst moments I had at church no one even knew...except my husband. We came to church early and although we had not signed up for Sunday school we wandered into a class. They were doing a series on cults and I swear, they were covering TWI that day. It was like a Hitchcock movie or the Twilight Zone.
I corrected the teacher once, got that look from hubby, and realized, I just didn't want to share the TWI experience. It is not that they would have been mean, but I was sitting in a class warning about the dangers of such a group, what it can do, and how people get fooled because they can't tell the difference.
Maybe I should have spoken up, but in those moments I realized a great deal about myself and I basically just wanted to crawl under the pew. It isn't always like that....and everyone has something they were delivered from.....I have heard some that things make my cult life pale in comparison....but ......it can still feel icky at times.
a few of Mstar's good points got me thinking about the evolution of my Bible reading post-TWI.....from the time i left in '86 up to the time of joining Grease Spot, i think i mostly had a simple, straight forward technical approach to Bible reading and study.
I say "mostly" - because the latter part of that interim i got more into systematic theology [which also incorporates a philosophical and historical approach] rather than just the technical side of scripture [the nuts & bolts stuff like languages, grammar & syntax, facts, events, culture, etc.]. To be honest - that can get boring or frustrating too ....and especially lonesome.
Grease Spot is a great place of give and take. With the exchange of ideas comes inspiration....a fresh look....a different approach....a more detailed focus....or reflecting on the big picture.
~~
early on, after my escape - i think one of the driving forces behind my reading/studies was to find "the truth" -but the more i got into it - i found a twofold dilemma,
1. - vp & TWI had done such a "great" job of distorting things - i doubted just about everything i learned thru that bunch, and
2. - there's an overwhelmingly vast amount of information out there when it comes to religious studies and it didn't look like my little pea-brain had enough processor power to determine something definitive on a whole lot of that stuff.
~~
Mstar talked about the challenge to formulate a deep biblical opinion - i hit that point too - and i had the same concern about being so convinced i was right while in the ministry and so i didn't want to kid myself into more delusional detours -
BUT
maybe there was also a rebellious attitude coupled with that concern -like "who says i have to have a definitive answer on this or that?".....i replaced the rigor mortis mindset of assuming i must "know that i know that i know" - with more of an adventurous spirit. my new mantra is "hey, my beliefs are in a state of flux. i'll get back to you later when i have more details."
it starts out in a very uncomfortable state....but sort of like leaving Rome City campus on self-structure day - a little scary at first, then gradually you realize nothing bad will happen.... and then you begin to enjoy the freedom to explore the outside world....uhm, remember that 2 drink limit!!!
~~
~~
about Bibles....i have a lot of them ....usually prefer NIV - i like the version for general reading pleasure and most of my study tools are geared toward the NIV. funny thing though - King Jimmie was pounded into my head for 12 years with wayworld - so i am more likely to remember a key passage or word from KJV and will then use a KJV concordance to find it faster than using another version.[fyi for all you King Jimmie fans - the best concordance that i've found is "The Strongest Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible" by James Strong of course, but it's fully revised by John Kohlenberger and James Swanson.....it was compiled and verified by computer technology, uh huh!].
Besides NIV, i also have fun reading The Message, and The New Living Translation. sometimes a passage that sounds so different from what you're used to hearing - can really get you thinking a little more in depth about it. variety is a wonderful thing.
for more technical studies i like NASB, The NET Bible, NRSV, ESV, the Holman Christian Standard Bible and the Amplified Bible [i usually plug it into a Marshall 100 watt bass amp , but have to watch the volume level .....or folks start speaking in drums....."uhm... Ginger, you'll have to interpret that now" ].
~~
haven't spent as much time reading the Bible this past year. got more into reading stuff on philosophy. i feel it gives my Bible study a fresh approach.
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So_crates
After I left da vey, I continued the habit of collecting translations. Right now the whole bottom shelf of my bookshelf has various translatioins, from a companion bible to Greek interliniars. All are collecting dust.
The only thing I've kept close to me--moving from the north to Florida and back to the north again--was the companion bible. But then my mother gave it to me as a Christmas present in my Way days.
SoCrates
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geisha779
Thanks Twinky,
It was a few years before I read my bible. I didn't even have a real interest. I still believed I had learned the truth, I still fully accepted Way doctrine(it was doctrine we learned), but I didn't have an interest in reading. When I tried, it was all jumbled. I still was disgusted and confused with the whole thing.
Eventually, I didn't even really care if there was a God. I relied heavily on my ability to SIT for salvation! If there was a God, I was in, I was golden.:)
But, those pesky circumstances....my kids had friends who were involved in church and Christian camp....so my kids started going. I actually helped run a large youth group while unsure about God, but if there was a God He was just like what I learned in TWI.
Somehow, I ended up around some pretty learned people. You want to talk about embarrassing experiences...talk about how many crucified, My God, My God, Are the Dead Alive Now, the gospel itself and the meaning of salvation along with SIT and more..... with people who actually know what they are talking about. Not pretty.
To add insult to injury...they were kind in their pity. I was not kind in my superior knowledge. I humiliated myself more than once. Still makes me a bit queasy.
I was so sure I knew. . . . and then I wasn't so sure. Then I got curious...and then I read!
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waysider
I have a hard time trying to read the Bible. I see some particular scripture and think about how I listened to some teacher or another get all excited about what the verse or word REALLY meant. Then I think about how that whole particular teaching was actually based on flawed research and didn't reflect the message they were trying to convey at all. Like finding out there is no Easter Bunny. Can you really make yourself believe in him again?
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Sunesis
I put it down for about 6 months and read all of Carl Jung's works and many of Freud's. Who knows why, I just found Jung fascinating.
I basically put all TWI teaching away.
Later, I started to get a thought - strange, against what TWI taught - and started going to the Bible to see if it were so...
That's how I got back into reading.
I let the Holy Spirit guide me as to what to read now. Not a "Bible Study Program."
It took a few more years to realize the Bible is a book of prophecy - then pieces started making even more sense.
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OldSkool
well, after I hauled my over 3000 books to the city dump all I did was read the bible and....oh wait a minute....ya, I don't have 3000 books or even know where the city dump is, and just how big of a truck would hold 3000 books and how many shelves in how large a room...drifting along now...
anyway, after the way international, try as I might I have no interest in picking up the bible. I hope that changes someday, or perhaps there is something I can do to change? I dunno. There was a time when reading the bible was enjoyable and exciting for me when I first became involved with the way international. Then, though their programs and legalistic structures I allowed that part of me to die. Sad to say. And they claim they teach how to enjoy reading the bible...hell, the taught me by example how to NOT enjoy reading the bible.
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Kit Sober
Waysider: You are not the only one who was taught to put Jesus Christ and the Bible into an "Easter Bunny" category, and I trust vp et al will be (have been?) held accountable for their work in this regard when they meet Him face to face.
That being said.... The Bible remains for me Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth. And 2011, as the 400th anniversary of KJV, so it seems to me that this thread is right up to date with what Christians are musing about on other places of the web. You can also get a 1611 copy of the thing at Amazon.com. I have given 1611 versions to hard-to-reach intellectual friends and a family member who could be intrigued by the historical/intellectual value of the thing. I especially like the expanded introduction of the 1611 which demonstrates such reverence and awe for the Lord and His holiness and the meekness of the translators before the Lord, which is often missing, in my opinion, in other translations which emphasize the credentials of the translators over those of the Author.
I find myself at home in kjv. It's my conversation piece so to speak. I am hard of hearing physically, and only the Lord would always hear me and I could hear and understand Him. Many of the notes in my old Bibles are "out" dated, but the Bibles are reminders of memorable teachings punctuated by Holy Spirit emphasis (Del and others had that Way about their words :) ) I find that the door between my heart and the Lord's is often most quickly opened by kjv language.
As I have said at other tables in this Greasespot Cafe, The Message by Eugene Peterson is been another good version I love. Eugene Peterson developed his translation as he was translating God's Word into a language those of his youth ministry could understand. It's in a modern language with a depth of understanding of the heart of the Lord, in my opinion.
I also, as others, have gone through a period of comeuppance when trying to communicate with church members of other churches. Trying to fit into the general body of Christ coming out of a cult requires much carving off of sharp edges, depending upon the depth of cult-level thinking. My cult mentality (and the arrogance etc. thereof) was pretty deep, but God has had good kind mercy upon me. I still have church, I still have the Bible, and most importantly, I still have Him, for which I am so very thankful.
My goal now is relationship, both with the Holy Spirit and with others, and all versions of the Bible can be used for that. I generally leave my battered old Bibles at home or in the car lest people get the wrong impression and mistakenly think I am some kind of Bible scholar.
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mstar1
That was/is the hardest part for me. I was absolutely sure that "I knew that I knew that I knew" and was very arrogant about it. When I could finally wrap my head around the idea that I really knew zilch, things actually got better for me even though it was a very hard pill to swallow. (VPW may have been right when he said '"its what you learn after you think that you know it all that counts").
It is still very hard for me to formulate any in depth biblical opinions because I have been convinced that I was so right, when I was so so wrong.
I dont read the bible nearly as much as I once did and to be honest I really dont care that much about esoteric questions to argue about anymore. Thankfully Ive also been exposed to some very learned people in christian circles.
Their example of living is enough to show me alot, I really dont need to know where the commas go, or memorize a zillion verses in order to feel complete anymore
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soul searcher
Well...I was never in TWI but I was turned on to the bible by somebody who was. She sent me a class on CD produced by way-offshoot STF entitled "A New Life in Christ". I honestly found the class to be fascinating. (It helped that the two speakers, JW Schoenheit and his sister Susan, were excellent.) And if it wasn't for that class I would not have bothered to read the bible. (At this point I'm almost done with Revelation. It took me about a year and a half, through varying levels of motivation and interest.)
However, after I found the GSC, and after participating in bible discussion forums, I rejected all the questionable Way doctrine. When I brought up topics like "four crucified" and "six denials" in other discussion groups, nobody (save for the 1-in-100 bible scholar or clergyman who has bothered to read Bullinger's footnotes in The Companion Bible) had ever even heard of those interpretations. It made me wonder.
So... I've had the somewhat rare experience of reading and interpreting the bible on my own (technically I'm Catholic but, bad daddy that I am, I don't go to church with the wife and kids) with no personal guidance or instruction whatsoever, save for the study notes in my NIV and various other commentary that I've read on the internet.
Anyway...oddly, or sadly, or ironically -- whatever -- I initially started reading the bible to try and pull myself closer to Christianity. But after having read it, I now wonder if I'm really a Christian at all. I mean, if being a Christian means that you have to believe that God ordered Moses and the Levites to execute 3,000; or Joshua to obliterate the Gibeonites (or dozens of other atrocities in the OT) then I don't think I'm on board with that.
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Broken Arrow
What helped me when I came out of TWI was reading other Christian authors besides TWI material. Also, using a good devotional has been helpful. You don't have to agree with everything, just read it like you'd read a novel or something.
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geisha779
I don't even tell too many people about TWI anymore and it isn't that I am trying to be dishonest, at times it is just too much to explain. Some people just don't understand, but then again, how could they? Most of the time I don't understand it all..... that is why I like to come here.
One of the worst moments I had at church no one even knew...except my husband. We came to church early and although we had not signed up for Sunday school we wandered into a class. They were doing a series on cults and I swear, they were covering TWI that day. It was like a Hitchcock movie or the Twilight Zone.
I corrected the teacher once, got that look from hubby, and realized, I just didn't want to share the TWI experience. It is not that they would have been mean, but I was sitting in a class warning about the dangers of such a group, what it can do, and how people get fooled because they can't tell the difference.
Maybe I should have spoken up, but in those moments I realized a great deal about myself and I basically just wanted to crawl under the pew. It isn't always like that....and everyone has something they were delivered from.....I have heard some that things make my cult life pale in comparison....but ......it can still feel icky at times.
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T-Bone
a few of Mstar's good points got me thinking about the evolution of my Bible reading post-TWI.....from the time i left in '86 up to the time of joining Grease Spot, i think i mostly had a simple, straight forward technical approach to Bible reading and study.
I say "mostly" - because the latter part of that interim i got more into systematic theology [which also incorporates a philosophical and historical approach] rather than just the technical side of scripture [the nuts & bolts stuff like languages, grammar & syntax, facts, events, culture, etc.]. To be honest - that can get boring or frustrating too ....and especially lonesome.
Grease Spot is a great place of give and take. With the exchange of ideas comes inspiration....a fresh look....a different approach....a more detailed focus....or reflecting on the big picture.
~~
early on, after my escape - i think one of the driving forces behind my reading/studies was to find "the truth" -but the more i got into it - i found a twofold dilemma,
1. - vp & TWI had done such a "great" job of distorting things - i doubted just about everything i learned thru that bunch, and
2. - there's an overwhelmingly vast amount of information out there when it comes to religious studies and it didn't look like my little pea-brain had enough processor power to determine something definitive on a whole lot of that stuff.
~~
Mstar talked about the challenge to formulate a deep biblical opinion - i hit that point too - and i had the same concern about being so convinced i was right while in the ministry and so i didn't want to kid myself into more delusional detours -
BUT
maybe there was also a rebellious attitude coupled with that concern -like "who says i have to have a definitive answer on this or that?".....i replaced the rigor mortis mindset of assuming i must "know that i know that i know" - with more of an adventurous spirit. my new mantra is "hey, my beliefs are in a state of flux. i'll get back to you later when i have more details."
it starts out in a very uncomfortable state....but sort of like leaving Rome City campus on self-structure day - a little scary at first, then gradually you realize nothing bad will happen.... and then you begin to enjoy the freedom to explore the outside world....uhm, remember that 2 drink limit!!!
~~
~~
about Bibles....i have a lot of them
....usually prefer NIV - i like the version for general reading pleasure and most of my study tools are geared toward the NIV. funny thing though - King Jimmie was pounded into my head for 12 years with wayworld - so i am more likely to remember a key passage or word from KJV and will then use a KJV concordance to find it faster than using another version.[fyi for all you King Jimmie fans - the best concordance that i've found is "The Strongest Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible" by James Strong of course, but it's fully revised by John Kohlenberger and James Swanson.....it was compiled and verified by computer technology, uh huh!].
Besides NIV, i also have fun reading The Message, and The New Living Translation. sometimes a passage that sounds so different from what you're used to hearing - can really get you thinking a little more in depth about it. variety is a wonderful thing.
for more technical studies i like NASB, The NET Bible, NRSV, ESV, the Holman Christian Standard Bible and the Amplified Bible [i usually plug it into a Marshall 100 watt bass amp , but have to watch the volume level .....or folks start speaking in drums....."uhm... Ginger, you'll have to interpret that now"
].
~~
haven't spent as much time reading the Bible this past year. got more into reading stuff on philosophy. i feel it gives my Bible study a fresh approach.
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