Why is it when we talk about Wierwille, we so often feel compelled to compare him to Biblical figures? He wasn't a Biblical figure. In fact, aside from the fact that he used the Bible as a backdrop, there was nothing especially Biblical about him at all. Same thing with incidents we experienced in The Way. Why do we compare them to incidents that happened in the Bible? We don't live in Biblical times. We live in a completely different time and culture. Me, personally, I think VPW was more like Harold Hill from the Music Man than anyone in the Bible....except, of course, for Wierwille's unhappy ending.
VPW would be the equivalent of a......P. T. Barnum Jr.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Phineas Taylor Barnum (July 5, 1810 – April 7, 1891) was an American showman, businessman, and entertainer, remembered for promoting celebrated hoaxes and for founding the circus that became the Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus.
Why is it when we talk about Wierwille, we so often feel compelled to compare him to Biblical figures? He wasn't a Biblical figure. In fact, aside from the fact that he used the Bible as a backdrop, there was nothing especially Biblical about him at all. Same thing with incidents we experienced in The Way. Why do we compare them to incidents that happened in the Bible?....
Railroad tracks need to be parallel.
Maybe that explains why TWI "jumped the track".
you reminded me of the PFAL session where vp talks about the 5 senses are not reliable and can even be deceptive - like seeing train tracks that appear to converge in the distance....thinking about our old mindset of "seeing" biblical parallels - imho, this was a deliberate design started by vp himself. For in noting appearances of similarity would serve to lend a legitimacy to his misery [oops - i mean ministry - musta slipped on a Grease Spot - my bad].
~~
just off the top of my head i thought of a few things of ministry origin that were used to elevate anything vp or TWI to a biblical status of legitimacy and authority:
in PFAL book, vp says not EVERYTHING that Luther, other theologians or even HIMSELF says is god-breathed [planting the seed that SOME of what vp says IS god-breathed]
calling his organization "The Way" cause that's what true christians called themselves in the 1st century
vp and others starting out letters with an epistle-sounding opener: "greetings and blessings to you in the wonderful, magnanimous, stupendous, and ineffably great name...yada yada yada"
when asked if PFAL 77 was going to replace the original class - i remember a prominent leader on stage saying something to the effect of "Did God have Paul re-write Ephesians?"
the incredible myth vp fabricated of God audibly talking to him and promising He would teach vp the word like it had not been known for centuries if he would just teach it to others
"father in the word" one way of referring to vp [mimicking a reference in Corinthians in regards to Paul's preaching] - subject of another thread right now
vp's way production tune of the mystery train 1
**
footnote
1. from a passenger's perspective - one of the many mysterious things about vp's train is its final destination....and speaking of trying to find parallels with vp, perhaps another historical parallel - Hitler - is a bit of a stretch - [although i do see some character parallels] - but supposedly he did get the trains to run on time .
~~
But using a train track analogy - i boarded this wacky train ride "seeing" that it ran parallel to another track - which i assumed was a biblical model....however, at some point on my journey i woke up after a loooooong nap, looked out the window and realized this train was no longer running next to that other track.
~~
I got a biblical parallel for everyone concerning Victor Paul Wierwille: Beware of wolves in sheep's clothing.
Why is it when we talk about Wierwille, we so often feel compelled to compare him to Biblical figures? He wasn't a Biblical figure. In fact, aside from the fact that he used the Bible as a backdrop, there was nothing especially Biblical about him at all. Same thing with incidents we experienced in The Way. Why do we compare them to incidents that happened in the Bible? We don't live in Biblical times. We live in a completely different time and culture. Me, personally, I think VPW was more like Harold Hill from the Music Man than anyone in the Bible....except, of course, for Wierwille's unhappy ending.
Waysider,
I can see parallels between VP and what is written in scripture about certain kinds of people....those who handle the scriptures with a particular motivation and deal deceitfully with God and people who seek after Him. I think it is spot on myself.
Whether you agree with the bible we have, or believe in the God revealed in the scriptures, it does really deal with the human condition. The question of what it means to be human transcends time and culture. This is why so many people turn to the bible for answers. We may not like the answers, but it does have them. It does have an explanation for the existential "whys". We may opt for a different voice, but scripture has a voice.
The scriptures also deal with man's relationship to God. Again, you don't have to agree with it....but it does have a point of view, it is there.
It is no wonder that it deals with those who claim to speak for God, or claim a special knowledge of God.....and in reality are just bold, ignorant, and arrogant. It reveals them for who they are.
So much understanding of the bible was robbed from us....I think in part, because we missed much of the human reactions and interactions in scripture. We were so conditioned to this bizarre understanding of what relationship means it was difficult to understand any of it in a meaningful way. It was very arid, empty, and cold. It was a wasteland.
To me, the relationships in scripture are where the really fascinating things are. According to the scriptures....Jesus was the express image of God...yet, He was fully human....and He dealt with people on a very human level. He dealt with people differently, as individuals, in groups....He told one person this and another that....seemingly contradictory things at times. The whys of this are all wrapped up in the human condition and man's relationship to God. It is amazing. He is amazing.
I don't believe the bible because it says I have to or I will go to hell. I believe it because it speaks to me. I believe Jesus was the express image of God because of His voice, not because the bible told me so. If it didn't tell me that I would still conclude in reading about Him that this man was the Son of God. Scripture gives me answers to those questions we all have and those answers are still relevant and they relate to being human.
It seems right that we would somehow relate our experiences in TWI or with VP to scripture because presumably we fell into the snare of TWI seeking something. Scripture not only addresses what we were seeking....it addresses what we fell into with a pseudo-Christian cult. It addresses the man we fell prey to as he claimed special knowledge of and revelation from God. Yes, he was a con man, but the scriptures lay out a further explanation. A pretty ugly one too. If con man satisfies....then that is sufficient. It isn't sufficient for everyone though.
calling his organization "The Way" cause that's what true christians called themselves in the 1st century
Jesus called Himself the way.
Didn't VP explain from Acts maybe, some half-baked interpretation of a verse? Or am I remembering incorrectly...does it say they called themselves "the way"? It could and I just missed it. ....
Didn't VP explain from Acts maybe, some half-baked interpretation of a verse? Or am I remembering incorrectly...does it say they called themselves "the way"? It could and I just missed it. ....
yes Jesus said He was the way, the truth and the life John 14:6 .....if memory serves me well, in PFAL vp is "teaching" from Acts 9:2 or 19:23 where it is obviously referring to followers of Jesus and vp makes the remark of something like "see, even back then they were called the way"
I went back and looked over my post. I think sometimes I sound harsh, but MOST of the time it is not my intention. :) I hope I didn't come off that way to you. I was just answering your question because I thought it was a really good one and it made me think. I should use those smiley things more!
yes Jesus said He was the way, the truth and the life John 14:6 .....if memory serves me well, in PFAL vp is "teaching" from Acts 9:2 or 19:23 where it is obviously referring to followers of Jesus and vp makes the remark of something like "see, even back then they were called the way"
Was it wierwille or martindale who stated.....
"Believers were called 'followers of the way' before they were called Christian. In fact, the word 'Christian' was a derogatory term used by those who said that these people went around proselytizing that it was christ-in-you, christ-in-you....of which, the word Christian evolved."
"Believers were called 'followers of the way' before they were called Christian. In fact, the word 'Christian' was a derogatory term used by those who said that these people went around proselytizing that it was christ-in-you, christ-in-you....of which, the word Christian evolved."
i believe that was vp in PFAL - maybe in session 5..... or whatever session it was that vp covers Christ in you the hope of glory
Why is it when we talk about Wierwille, we so often feel compelled to compare him to Biblical figures? He wasn't a Biblical figure. In fact, aside from the fact that he used the Bible as a backdrop, there was nothing especially Biblical about him at all. Same thing with incidents we experienced in The Way. Why do we compare them to incidents that happened in the Bible? We don't live in Biblical times. We live in a completely different time and culture. Me, personally, I think VPW was more like Harold Hill from the Music Man than anyone in the Bible....except, of course, for Wierwille's unhappy ending.
Personally, I compare everyone with Biblical figures or events, or discriptions, Even Harold Hill. Nothing wrong with that, you just have to compare them with the right person and/or for the right reason.
Personally, I compare everyone with Biblical figures or events, or discriptions, Even Harold Hill. Nothing wrong with that, you just have to compare them with the right person and/or for the right reason.
Good point.
Parallel = Simon the Sorcerer and Victor Paul Wierwille....how'd I do? I am new to this parallel thing...
Parallel = Simon the Sorcerer and Victor Paul Wierwille....how'd I do? I am new to this parallel thing...
Let's see...
Acts 8, KJV.
9But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
11And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
My original line of thinking wasn't really questioning whether or not there are Biblical parallels. There obviously are. My question was more about the "why?". "Why" do we feel, in make making comparisons, that the comparisons need to be Biblical at all?
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OldSkool
Probably from residual conditioning.
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Broken Arrow
And he didn't know the territory!
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waysider
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T-Bone
i just wanted to add i don't think "needs and wants have to be parallel" is biblical either
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OldSkool
Ya, that really doesn't make a lot of sense.
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waysider
Railroad tracks need to be parallel.
Maybe that explains why TWI "jumped the track".
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T-Bone
well, maybe - - if we were talking about parking them....but i never was good at parallel parking anyway.
~ ~
yeah, don't think they would ever have made it to the "Unstoppable" phase.
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OldSkool
I got a biblical parallel for everyone concerning Victor Paul Wierwille: Beware of wolves in sheep's clothing.
How'd I do?
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skyrider
VPW would be the equivalent of a......P. T. Barnum Jr.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Phineas Taylor Barnum (July 5, 1810 – April 7, 1891) was an American showman, businessman, and entertainer, remembered for promoting celebrated hoaxes and for founding the circus that became the Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus.
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T-Bone
you reminded me of the PFAL session where vp talks about the 5 senses are not reliable and can even be deceptive - like seeing train tracks that appear to converge in the distance....thinking about our old mindset of "seeing" biblical parallels - imho, this was a deliberate design started by vp himself. For in noting appearances of similarity would serve to lend a legitimacy to his misery [oops - i mean ministry - musta slipped on a Grease Spot - my bad].
~~
just off the top of my head i thought of a few things of ministry origin that were used to elevate anything vp or TWI to a biblical status of legitimacy and authority:
in PFAL book, vp says not EVERYTHING that Luther, other theologians or even HIMSELF says is god-breathed [planting the seed that SOME of what vp says IS god-breathed]
calling his organization "The Way" cause that's what true christians called themselves in the 1st century
vp and others starting out letters with an epistle-sounding opener: "greetings and blessings to you in the wonderful, magnanimous, stupendous, and ineffably great name...yada yada yada"
when asked if PFAL 77 was going to replace the original class - i remember a prominent leader on stage saying something to the effect of "Did God have Paul re-write Ephesians?"
the incredible myth vp fabricated of God audibly talking to him and promising He would teach vp the word like it had not been known for centuries if he would just teach it to others
"father in the word" one way of referring to vp [mimicking a reference in Corinthians in regards to Paul's preaching] - subject of another thread right now
vp's way production tune of the mystery train 1
**
footnote
1. from a passenger's perspective - one of the many mysterious things about vp's train is its final destination....and speaking of trying to find parallels with vp, perhaps another historical parallel - Hitler - is a bit of a stretch - [although i do see some character parallels] - but supposedly he did get the trains to run on time
.
~~
But using a train track analogy - i boarded this wacky train ride "seeing" that it ran parallel to another track - which i assumed was a biblical model....however, at some point on my journey i woke up after a loooooong nap, looked out the window and realized this train was no longer running next to that other track.
~~
bulls-eye, Old Skool !!!!!!!!!!!!!
~~
edited to update the train time schedules
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geisha779
Waysider,
I can see parallels between VP and what is written in scripture about certain kinds of people....those who handle the scriptures with a particular motivation and deal deceitfully with God and people who seek after Him. I think it is spot on myself.
Whether you agree with the bible we have, or believe in the God revealed in the scriptures, it does really deal with the human condition. The question of what it means to be human transcends time and culture. This is why so many people turn to the bible for answers. We may not like the answers, but it does have them. It does have an explanation for the existential "whys". We may opt for a different voice, but scripture has a voice.
The scriptures also deal with man's relationship to God. Again, you don't have to agree with it....but it does have a point of view, it is there.
It is no wonder that it deals with those who claim to speak for God, or claim a special knowledge of God.....and in reality are just bold, ignorant, and arrogant. It reveals them for who they are.
So much understanding of the bible was robbed from us....I think in part, because we missed much of the human reactions and interactions in scripture. We were so conditioned to this bizarre understanding of what relationship means it was difficult to understand any of it in a meaningful way. It was very arid, empty, and cold. It was a wasteland.
To me, the relationships in scripture are where the really fascinating things are. According to the scriptures....Jesus was the express image of God...yet, He was fully human....and He dealt with people on a very human level. He dealt with people differently, as individuals, in groups....He told one person this and another that....seemingly contradictory things at times. The whys of this are all wrapped up in the human condition and man's relationship to God. It is amazing. He is amazing.
I don't believe the bible because it says I have to or I will go to hell. I believe it because it speaks to me. I believe Jesus was the express image of God because of His voice, not because the bible told me so. If it didn't tell me that I would still conclude in reading about Him that this man was the Son of God. Scripture gives me answers to those questions we all have and those answers are still relevant and they relate to being human.
It seems right that we would somehow relate our experiences in TWI or with VP to scripture because presumably we fell into the snare of TWI seeking something. Scripture not only addresses what we were seeking....it addresses what we fell into with a pseudo-Christian cult. It addresses the man we fell prey to as he claimed special knowledge of and revelation from God. Yes, he was a con man, but the scriptures lay out a further explanation. A pretty ugly one too. If con man satisfies....then that is sufficient. It isn't sufficient for everyone though.
Jesus called Himself the way.
Didn't VP explain from Acts maybe, some half-baked interpretation of a verse? Or am I remembering incorrectly...does it say they called themselves "the way"? It could and I just missed it. ....
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T-Bone
yes Jesus said He was the way, the truth and the life John 14:6 .....if memory serves me well, in PFAL vp is "teaching" from Acts 9:2 or 19:23 where it is obviously referring to followers of Jesus and vp makes the remark of something like "see, even back then they were called the way"
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geisha779
Waysider,
I went back and looked over my post. I think sometimes I sound harsh, but MOST of the time it is not my intention. :) I hope I didn't come off that way to you. I was just answering your question because I thought it was a really good one and it made me think. I should use those smiley things more!
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skyrider
Was it wierwille or martindale who stated.....
"Believers were called 'followers of the way' before they were called Christian. In fact, the word 'Christian' was a derogatory term used by those who said that these people went around proselytizing that it was christ-in-you, christ-in-you....of which, the word Christian evolved."
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T-Bone
i believe that was vp in PFAL - maybe in session 5..... or whatever session it was that vp covers Christ in you the hope of glory
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waysider
I'm fairly certain it's in session #5.
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frank123lol
Ole Henry could explain the Ford,but the Ford could not explain Henry.
ie. The Ford(us) were to stupid to explain Henry(Wierwille) but he could dominate the hell out of us.
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waysider
Hahaha!
Yeah, that one is quoted in PLAF (The Wonder Class), too.
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So_crates
Oh, wow, heavy deja vu.
SoCrates
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Keith
Personally, I compare everyone with Biblical figures or events, or discriptions, Even Harold Hill. Nothing wrong with that, you just have to compare them with the right person and/or for the right reason.
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OldSkool
Good point.
Parallel = Simon the Sorcerer and Victor Paul Wierwille....how'd I do? I am new to this parallel thing...
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WordWolf
Let's see...
Acts 8, KJV.
9But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
11And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
Sounds like a fair comparison.
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waysider
My original line of thinking wasn't really questioning whether or not there are Biblical parallels. There obviously are. My question was more about the "why?". "Why" do we feel, in make making comparisons, that the comparisons need to be Biblical at all?
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T-Bone
...dang it...failed again....i knew it was a trick question...
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