One thing that bothers me is, as I alluded to a few days ago, if this was so heinous and so traumatic, how could these women stay with twi for 5-10 more years? Nobody really stuck a gun to their heads. Guilt? Mind control? What does that mean? Fear, self preservation?
I don't know, johniam. Why do women return to men that have beat them to a pulp? Why do they protect these men with their lives? Why do families stay together sharing the secret of child molestation?
Why did Jaycee Lee Dugard allow herself to be held captive for 18 years by Phillip Garrido who fathered both of her children? She worked in the copyshop, sometimes alone, so she had ample opportunity to escape.
Why did Elizabeth Smart stay with the guy that kidnapped her? Again, she was in public, hidden under a veil, and I'm sure they encountered police before.
What I'm getting at is the psychology of someone whose been raped or abused is not as easy as why didn't you....
By their fruits ye shall know them? Everybody has both good and bad fruit. Even VP. I've heard people tell of kind things VP did for them. I think VP DID really think what he was doing was OK. His intent was not to victimize, it was to please himself.
Granted, we all have good and bad fruit. But there's bad fruit and there's bad fruit. I doubt many of us ran around claiming we represented God while plagerizing someone elses work and trying to sleep with everything in a skirt. This isn't just bad fruit, this is rotten fruit.
The whole ministry existed for one purpose: To please Saint Vic. Any good that was done was an unintended consequence.
A serial killer/rapist takes pleasure knowing his victims will suffer.
I beg to differ. I think Saint Vic needed to prop his ego by seeing how many notches he could put on his bedpost.
Not all rapist take pleasure in suffering. The guy who raped my niece only wanted pleasure. The guy who molested my ex-girlfriends seven year old daughter only wanted pleasure. Look at Garrido or Brian Mitchell, there was no pleasure in their victims suffering there. They only wanted to victimize.
One thing that bothers me is, as I alluded to a few days ago, if this was so heinous and so traumatic, how could these women stay with twi for 5-10 more years? Nobody really stuck a gun to their heads. Guilt? Mind control? What does that mean? Fear, self preservation? That would make more sense. But I think about what happened to these women and I wait for it to sink in. Surely, some moment in time it'll all hit me. I'll realize, HEY! You've been played! But that isn't happening. Why not?
I can't speak for them - none of that ever happened to me in TWI (however I saw things going on at the local level) - but my somewhat educated guess is that they wanted to believe that what they were doing was special and it made them feel special. Sexual abuse in children leads many of them to believe that sex is the only thing they can contribute to a "relationship" and in some sense of the word it is empowering. From what I can gather, leadership was well trained in being able to spot those who were vulnerable. Then there's the shame and guilt factor. So we've got people who think they are special because they are providing "spiritual comfort" to the MOGOTW - in a closed culture that flaunts its amorality to hide its imorality. I believe it took these ladies a LONG time to figure out what was really going on and just how wrong it really was and just how used they had been. It's a hard pill to swallow since many of them were complicit (strictly speaking, most of them were not forced).
VPW had a lot of people fooled. There were those, such as my husband, who would not believe it was possible for VPW to be the predator that he was. Then there were those who thought it was ok because of who they believed he was. Personally I believed he had it in him based on my brief encounters although I didn't know he actually did anything until after he died. I was never "sold out" after my encounters and not being very good at pretending to be caused me to be an outcast - so my experience in TWI then was very much like yours here is now - a lot of criticism for not going along.
My main gripe is not that they stayed. My gripe (as it is) is that they have continued (in a sense) to let him have his way with them even from the grave. They continue to define themselves by this experience thereby giving it far more power and influence in their lives than it deserves.
I left TWI in 1987 and spent the next 18 years being far more involved in an offshoot. When I finally walked away from that hot mess, I was relieved and soon after I had the realization that they were no different than the group they split from. I gave a lot of time and energy to a bunch of people who offered nothing tangible in return. I will do my best to avoid making that mistake in the future. That is the best I can do.
My suggestion to you is to let go of what can't be changed - the past - in order to help them let go.
i think part of my problem was having been sexually abused as a child -- my boundaries and way of thinking were f'd up
i did tell him on a few occasions i absolutely could not handle his counseling/offer about how i should be with him to know what the real love of god is like with a man of god -- he said the way of a man with a maiden
i ran from him and his motorcoach a few times and would try to avoid him when he visited emporia (but i first met him my freshman year in college)
the night he finally got his way is one i can't really remember as to how i got to the back of the coach from the sitting area(table like a booth). i just remember waking up and two thing come to mind -- one was staring into very cold dead eyes and the other was viewing it from the ceiling like i was looking down
the only reason i went this motorcoach trip was because i wanted to go to the other campus to see my fiance
i'm sure this doesn't make sense to you
also, the girls in college who witnessed to me did talk about what a privilege it was to be with him and that it was like a gift to please him
i agree that no one held a gun to my head. i didn't leave the way until he died actually
it's so hard to explain now that i'm not that person anymore
it's difficult to talk about. i'll try to think about other ways to explain it if i can
ps. for what it's worth, once that night happened he never tried to get me again (i think it is because it's not fun being with a "dead" person), but i didn't care - i was thankful as hell
the next morning still traveling -- i found myself on a side cot that comes out from a wall -- he walked over and put his you-know-what in my face and i played possum
It's really no one's business why you stayed. What he did was wrong . It would still be wrong, even if you had left immediately. Focusing on how much longer you stayed is simply a way of trying to take the guilt off VPW and put it on you. You see this kind of thinking in rape cases......."It's your fault for wearing that red dress, it's your fault for walking down that particular street. it's your fault for appearing vulnerable..........." That's a load of crap. It's VPW's fault that he did what he did, not yours. Period.
Can you imagine a guy getting arrested for robbing a bank and trying to use this kind of reasoning to defend his actions?...."Yes, your honor, I robbed the bank, but, it was really their fault, not mine, because they had a substandard security system."
Can you imagine a guy getting arrested for robbing a bank and trying to use this kind of reasoning to defend his actions?...."Yes, your honor, I robbed the bank, but, it was really their fault, not mine, because they had a substandard security system."
Or "They had the vault door wide open." Or "They were bragging about how much they gave out in loans and I couldn't stop thinking about all that cash."
Johniam, your post 276 shows a rather better side of you.
I am not trying to "put you down" - I was trying to think how it is you don't seem to have any empathy. Like knowing all the words and what the words mean, but not knowing the sense of the words. Which is what happens with Asperger's syndrome people and some forms of autism.
I think you will understand that, as you have a couple of kids with the problem. Yes, such kids do respond to love and can often be more overtly affectionate than kids without. And they're often significantly gifted in something (drawing, music, swimming...)
Abuser/abusee relationships are complex and although objectively most people can see that there is something wrong, the participants have their own "normal." When someone has had their self-esteem eroded over a long, long period, it takes enormous efforts to overcome it. The desire to "please" or fear / expectation of violence is strong. It can often be found in domestic violence situations. DV is more than physical violence: it can include emotional and financial abuse too.
Some judges have refused to take women seriously because they simply cannot understand why women don't walk out. But until quite recently most judges have been "male and pale" (white men) who don't understand women, or people from different cultural backgrounds.
Expand your horizons, John.
First, do some research on abuser/abusee situations.
And then think what practical help you could offer.
Waysider is right, but I appreciate that you're willing to share stuff like that. You posted recently that early on in Waydale/GSC you would delete entire posts because it felt bad to read it after you posted it. I think I remember one such post. It was on a thread started by Qamiqasi on the open forum. It wasn't about twi; it was about female beauty from a historic perspective. It wasn't too racy, but there were 3 or 4 other females besides you who erased whole sections of posts at some point. But look at you now.
I have to admit that sometimes I dread the idea that stuff I've posted here could be read aloud in a court of law. Yuck! But it just feels good to get stuff out in the open. I suspect that the number of twi people, men in particular, who were like VP, is relatively small, but the ones who weren't like that had to tolerate it. Similar to men in a war who had to shoot at innocent civilians per their commanding officer. They really HAD to; they'd get court martialed if they didn't..or worse. But they couldn't possibly have been comfortable with it.
The men in the fellowship I currently attend. I spend a lot of time with them. Camping, canoeing, wood cutting, drinking, etc. Just us men. In the 6 years I've hung out with them, not ONCE have I heard any of them say anything lewd or derogatory about their wives or any other women in the fellowship. Just doesn't happen. They KNOW that the sexual stuff in twi really happened. They've all been married 20 plus years just like me. They do physical work for a living like me. There's no inner circle of "mature believers" or whatever.
I know who you are, BTW. Never met you, unless I happened to be standing in line next to you at an ROA or something. I know who your first husband is and I've met him before. I guess I shouldn't assume he is the 'fiance' you spoke of, but did you ever tell him what VP did? Was HE like VP in that way? I can't help but be curious. OMG! I'm going to read Kris' book sometime. Have you read it? Do you recommend it for someone like me?
First, do some research on abuser/abusee situations.
And then think what practical help you could offer.
Quoting scripture verses just won't cut it.
Quoting scripture was not intended to help anybody; it was to give my perspective...where I'M coming from. IMO the most practical help anybody can give is to just be honest. Nobody knows everything about everything. I think much of the reason you guys have cut me this much slack is because I shoot from the hip. Bull in a china shop? Sometimes, but I'm really not just here to be inflammatory.
BTW, did you know that David Byrne, lead singer of Talking Heads, was diagnosed with Aspergers when he was 12? I saw a video on Youtube of him singing that song 'Once in a lifetime'. Even my daughter thought it was funny. "Same as it ever was....(bonks himself on the head)".
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waysider
"I could use the same argument when sex abuse victims tell their stories. I could say that in India it's still possible for a husband to find his wife not pleasing and have her burned. That twi sex ab
WordWolf
Sounds like you have a LOT of different "they's". Are "they" all one big "they", or are there many independent "theys" that lack specific names? "They" is INCREDIBLY vague- and thus INCREDIBLY CONV
waysider
Posted Images
OldSkool
quote:
Is it possible Johniam could suffer from Asperger's syndrome?
Is it possible Johniam could suffers from As$pberger's syndrome?!
Just a quick demo in what a person can do with the text tools provided with the forum board. Hey....check this...
Is that amazing or what?
And no, I am not trying to flame you on a personal level. Just having a little fun with words.
quote: And no, I am not trying to flame you on a personal level. Just having a little fun with words.
And of course poking fun at your trollish posting methods.
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Bolshevik
Your chart also implies He's a she.
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So_crates
I don't know, johniam. Why do women return to men that have beat them to a pulp? Why do they protect these men with their lives? Why do families stay together sharing the secret of child molestation?
Why did Jaycee Lee Dugard allow herself to be held captive for 18 years by Phillip Garrido who fathered both of her children? She worked in the copyshop, sometimes alone, so she had ample opportunity to escape.
Why did Elizabeth Smart stay with the guy that kidnapped her? Again, she was in public, hidden under a veil, and I'm sure they encountered police before.
What I'm getting at is the psychology of someone whose been raped or abused is not as easy as why didn't you....
For example, there's a thing called the Stockholm Syndrome (definition) (Love and The Stockholm syndrome)
Granted, we all have good and bad fruit. But there's bad fruit and there's bad fruit. I doubt many of us ran around claiming we represented God while plagerizing someone elses work and trying to sleep with everything in a skirt. This isn't just bad fruit, this is rotten fruit.
The whole ministry existed for one purpose: To please Saint Vic. Any good that was done was an unintended consequence.
I beg to differ. I think Saint Vic needed to prop his ego by seeing how many notches he could put on his bedpost.
Not all rapist take pleasure in suffering. The guy who raped my niece only wanted pleasure. The guy who molested my ex-girlfriends seven year old daughter only wanted pleasure. Look at Garrido or Brian Mitchell, there was no pleasure in their victims suffering there. They only wanted to victimize.
SoCrates
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OldSkool
quote:Your chart also implies He's a she.
Or that I am a she...depending one's perspective.
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Bolshevik
The internet is a strange place . . .
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OldSkool
quote:The internet is a strange place . . .
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So_crates
Another one with tiger blood and Adonis DNA
SoCrates
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Tzaia
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excathedra
thank you that you believe me, johniam
i think part of my problem was having been sexually abused as a child -- my boundaries and way of thinking were f'd up
i did tell him on a few occasions i absolutely could not handle his counseling/offer about how i should be with him to know what the real love of god is like with a man of god -- he said the way of a man with a maiden
i ran from him and his motorcoach a few times and would try to avoid him when he visited emporia (but i first met him my freshman year in college)
the night he finally got his way is one i can't really remember as to how i got to the back of the coach from the sitting area(table like a booth). i just remember waking up and two thing come to mind -- one was staring into very cold dead eyes and the other was viewing it from the ceiling like i was looking down
the only reason i went this motorcoach trip was because i wanted to go to the other campus to see my fiance
i'm sure this doesn't make sense to you
also, the girls in college who witnessed to me did talk about what a privilege it was to be with him and that it was like a gift to please him
i agree that no one held a gun to my head. i didn't leave the way until he died actually
it's so hard to explain now that i'm not that person anymore
it's difficult to talk about. i'll try to think about other ways to explain it if i can
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excathedra
ps. for what it's worth, once that night happened he never tried to get me again (i think it is because it's not fun being with a "dead" person), but i didn't care - i was thankful as hell
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excathedra
the next morning still traveling -- i found myself on a side cot that comes out from a wall -- he walked over and put his you-know-what in my face and i played possum
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waysider
It's really no one's business why you stayed. What he did was wrong . It would still be wrong, even if you had left immediately. Focusing on how much longer you stayed is simply a way of trying to take the guilt off VPW and put it on you. You see this kind of thinking in rape cases......."It's your fault for wearing that red dress, it's your fault for walking down that particular street. it's your fault for appearing vulnerable..........." That's a load of crap. It's VPW's fault that he did what he did, not yours. Period.
Can you imagine a guy getting arrested for robbing a bank and trying to use this kind of reasoning to defend his actions?...."Yes, your honor, I robbed the bank, but, it was really their fault, not mine, because they had a substandard security system."
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So_crates
Or "They had the vault door wide open." Or "They were bragging about how much they gave out in loans and I couldn't stop thinking about all that cash."
SoCrates
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Twinky
Johniam, your post 276 shows a rather better side of you.
I am not trying to "put you down" - I was trying to think how it is you don't seem to have any empathy. Like knowing all the words and what the words mean, but not knowing the sense of the words. Which is what happens with Asperger's syndrome people and some forms of autism.
I think you will understand that, as you have a couple of kids with the problem. Yes, such kids do respond to love and can often be more overtly affectionate than kids without. And they're often significantly gifted in something (drawing, music, swimming...)
Abuser/abusee relationships are complex and although objectively most people can see that there is something wrong, the participants have their own "normal." When someone has had their self-esteem eroded over a long, long period, it takes enormous efforts to overcome it. The desire to "please" or fear / expectation of violence is strong. It can often be found in domestic violence situations. DV is more than physical violence: it can include emotional and financial abuse too.
Some judges have refused to take women seriously because they simply cannot understand why women don't walk out. But until quite recently most judges have been "male and pale" (white men) who don't understand women, or people from different cultural backgrounds.
Expand your horizons, John.
First, do some research on abuser/abusee situations.
And then think what practical help you could offer.
Quoting scripture verses just won't cut it.
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excathedra
thanks
i have to tell you -- i'm think i'm at the point where i don't really care how much anyone believes me
tonight i'm trying to be polite because well i don't know why
but wierwille just ....es me off and he was gross he was like my grandfather who grosses me out even more lol
if we get into this again, you just have to remember he was the pastor -- shepherd (sp?) lol to the flock
there's no damn excuse
if you have common sense or an ounce of a heart, you'll see this
as if anything i could say could change anyone's mind
i doubt it
i feel more sorry for kristin and marsha because i think they loved him
AND i feel even sorrier for kathy and cathie and many other ones that i know felt it was a privilege
but how dare he
if he spoke some truth, so be it
he destroyed some souls, so be it
and all you offshoot people or wayfer people or ex leaders who say whatever you say
i just don't really care
and i'm sure you don't care about me either
that's cool, fine, etc.
i'm not living for you or dying for you anymore
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Broken Arrow
How do you make the chart?
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So_crates
Most likely it was a jpeg off another website.
Confirmed: it came off of imageshack. If you go to the post and press the "reply" button you'll see the web address between the img-/img tags.
SoCrates
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Ham
what is wrong with this picture..
well.. to start. The computer features an intel 8088. or is that an 80286..
and the monitor. It looks like an original green monitor. Or a CGA monitor..
the graphics don't make much sense. "Windows" with that kind of task bar would not have exactly fit..
especially on a machine only fitted with a 80286..
the "kid" is far out of the league here..
Not to mention the printer. No, it was not a 64 pin dot matrix printer..
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Ham
plus the 1200 baud connection into the phone line..
well, linux, even today can do wonders at 1200 baud. As long as you like text..
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Ham
has anybody else here.. identified the floppy drive hardware here? It was 5/1/4 floppy drive. either 180 or 360k drives..
depending on whether it was single, or double sided..
I have an old drive somewhere that will read these. That is, if the current machine's bios will allow it..
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OldSkool
I cracked up when I found this pic. It is so heavily meshed up it's comical.
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Twinky
Now guys...you are way off topic here.
It's a soapbox for John. And he hasn't raised computer wizardry - yet.
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johniam
quote: thank you that you believe me, johniam
Waysider is right, but I appreciate that you're willing to share stuff like that. You posted recently that early on in Waydale/GSC you would delete entire posts because it felt bad to read it after you posted it. I think I remember one such post. It was on a thread started by Qamiqasi on the open forum. It wasn't about twi; it was about female beauty from a historic perspective. It wasn't too racy, but there were 3 or 4 other females besides you who erased whole sections of posts at some point. But look at you now.
I have to admit that sometimes I dread the idea that stuff I've posted here could be read aloud in a court of law. Yuck! But it just feels good to get stuff out in the open. I suspect that the number of twi people, men in particular, who were like VP, is relatively small, but the ones who weren't like that had to tolerate it. Similar to men in a war who had to shoot at innocent civilians per their commanding officer. They really HAD to; they'd get court martialed if they didn't..or worse. But they couldn't possibly have been comfortable with it.
The men in the fellowship I currently attend. I spend a lot of time with them. Camping, canoeing, wood cutting, drinking, etc. Just us men. In the 6 years I've hung out with them, not ONCE have I heard any of them say anything lewd or derogatory about their wives or any other women in the fellowship. Just doesn't happen. They KNOW that the sexual stuff in twi really happened. They've all been married 20 plus years just like me. They do physical work for a living like me. There's no inner circle of "mature believers" or whatever.
I know who you are, BTW. Never met you, unless I happened to be standing in line next to you at an ROA or something. I know who your first husband is and I've met him before. I guess I shouldn't assume he is the 'fiance' you spoke of, but did you ever tell him what VP did? Was HE like VP in that way? I can't help but be curious. OMG! I'm going to read Kris' book sometime. Have you read it? Do you recommend it for someone like me?
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johniam
quote:
Expand your horizons, John.
First, do some research on abuser/abusee situations.
And then think what practical help you could offer.
Quoting scripture verses just won't cut it.
Quoting scripture was not intended to help anybody; it was to give my perspective...where I'M coming from. IMO the most practical help anybody can give is to just be honest. Nobody knows everything about everything. I think much of the reason you guys have cut me this much slack is because I shoot from the hip. Bull in a china shop? Sometimes, but I'm really not just here to be inflammatory.
BTW, did you know that David Byrne, lead singer of Talking Heads, was diagnosed with Aspergers when he was 12? I saw a video on Youtube of him singing that song 'Once in a lifetime'. Even my daughter thought it was funny. "Same as it ever was....(bonks himself on the head)".
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