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quote: I'll shamelessly plug my own story and article which are posted on the front page as further bits of "what we got" for your review.

I read the article a few weeks ago, and I just read it again. It pits VPs 'fundamentalist' position against a position which doesn't believe the bible is inerrant. But either position leaves room for the same potential, IMO.

VPs position is, in a nut shell...

the bible is God's word

God is perfect

therefore, the bible is perfect.

That is the premise for his research, right? He further says that the closer you look at something man made, the more imperfection you see, but the closer you look at something made by God, the more perfection you see. That is some air tight logic.

He always said read it for your self. But if anybody read it for themselves and came to a different conclusion than VP, there were problems. OK, point well made, but the other position is no different.

If I believe the bible is not inerrant, then my 'research' is going to look for scripture and supportive logic which agrees with THAT. You have to start with SOME kind of premise that only YOU can decide. If I'm a clergyman and I don't believe that the bible is inerrant, then I have to justify how I can believe in an imperfect word of a perfect God. This will involve insisting that my followers agree with my "take" on scripture, which is not inerrant. If one of my followers disagrees with my take on scripture, I'll eventually have to pull rank on him/them. How is this really different than VP as a mode of research? Different strategy; same potential for friction.

It made sense to us that if God is perfect, then His word had to be perfect as well. I think a lot of us got a lot of mileage off that.

One of the hallmarks of Protestant Fundamentalism is its claim of inerrant scripture. This is a relatively new idea about scripture, coming into play around 1920 when some theologians got upset about the critical and historical study of the documents contained in the Bible and put together about 12 long papers called The Fundamentals. (there are plenty of good books documenting the history of fundamentalism and you can Google The Fundamentals and find them online).

Historical study asks questions like: where did these documents come from, who wrote them, what kind of cultural influences did the writers inherit, etc. The theologians who wrote, The Fundamentals were afraid that such study undermined people's faith in God, Jesus, and salvation. I disagree with that, faith is faith, which by its nature does not depend on a book.

So inerrancy is a "new" claim about scriptures made from what I see as a defensive position. In my view, it stems from a fear that a study of the Bible's sources and different writers, claims, errors, etc. would bother people. I disagree. Plenty of Christians accept the imperfections in the texts while still believing in God, Jesus, salvation, etc.

So back to inerrancy. The history of fundamentalism shows that inerrancy is a man-made idea about scriptures and also of a God that has to be "perfect" which is a theological position and therefore unprovable; that, too, is a matter of faith.

The burden of showing inerrancy of the scriptures, therefore, lies with the authors of The Fundamentals but since they're not around, it falls to anyone making the assertion.

So I ask you, did VP ever prove that the entire KJV was without error or contradiction?

Did he or anyone else ever show how the entire Bible "fit" together perfectly?

A few more observations before I get off my soapbox:

1) VP and most other fundamentalists do not state which Bible they are referring to when they say it "must be perfect because God is perfect."

So the question to ask them is, "Which canon of the scripture is inerrant?"

2) Why is it so important that the scriptures be "perfect"?

Many people find value, inspiration, etc. from scriptures in spite of the various viewpoints or contradictions found in it, like the different perspectives of the gospel writers.

3) If God is without contradiction, how do you account for even this simple example of contradiction about the God of Israel (apparently the same one VP taught us about) . One minute he says don't kill - no exceptions are stated. Two chapters later it says he tells Israel to go for it.

Dueteronomy 5:17: "Thou shalt not kill"

Dueteronomy 7: 2: "And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them...:

For those interested, more information about inerrancy is covered in most any book about fundamentalism from writers like James Barr, Ernest Sandeen, George Marsden, and in a book on Religious Literacy: What Every American Needs to Know - and Doesn't, by Stephen Prothero.

In closing, I'll just include this food for thought :

"...in addition to reading the Bible devotionally there is a value in reading it historically. To be sure, a historical reading can show many of the shortcomings of the Bible - discrepancies, contradictions, faulty claims, impossible statements, and harmful ideologies. But a historical reading can open up entirely new vistas in our understanding of the Bible and its multifarious messages."

~ Jesus, Interrupted by Bart Ehrman. Pg.282.

Cheers!

Pen

Edited by penworks
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....I'll shamelessly plug my own story and article which are posted on the front page as further bits of "what we got" for your review.

I knew the man for 17 years. I know that not every single thing that came out of his mouth was a lie...if that had been the case, lots of us would not have become associated with TWI. I'll go on record as pointing out he told the truth plenty of times, but he used people and used the Bible to further his own aims. He made his claims sound like they made sense. He manipulated people and intimidated them. Each person's experience in TWI is different depending on many factors, but I suggest for those who want to know, that they seek out information about the man from those of us who knew him and read his books, like the PFAL book to see for themselves how he misused scripture and ranted about "unbelievers" among other things. He was a fundamentalist gone wild.

Remember this while you're making up your own mind:

"The fanatic inspires and breathes fear. It is the only tie that binds him to his fellow-man and God.

So afraid is he of doubt that he pushes it outside the law. Whether his dictatorship is intellectual or theocratic, he pretends to possess a unique and eternal truth.

Insist on a discussion, and he takes offense. He accepts questions only if he alone has the right to answer them.

It comes to this: The fanatic accepts only answers – his own – while his tolerant adversary prefers questions."

~ Elie Wiesel

One of the hallmarks of Protestant Fundamentalism is its claim of inerrant scripture. This is a relatively new idea about scripture, coming into play around 1920 when some theologians got upset about the critical and historical study of the documents contained in the Bible and put together about 12 long papers called The Fundamentals. (there are plenty of good books documenting the history of fundamentalism and you can Google The Fundamentals and find them online).

Historical study asks questions like: where did these documents come from, who wrote them, what kind of cultural influences did the writers inherit, etc. The theologians who wrote, The Fundamentals were afraid that such study undermined people's faith in God, Jesus, and salvation. I disagree with that, faith is faith, which by its nature does not depend on a book.

So inerrancy is a "new" claim about scriptures made from what I see as a defensive position. In my view, it stems from a fear that a study of the Bible's sources and different writers, claims, errors, etc. would bother people. I disagree. Plenty of Christians accept the imperfections in the texts while still believing in God, Jesus, salvation, etc.

So back to inerrancy. The history of fundamentalism shows that inerrancy is a man-made idea about scriptures and also of a God that has to be "perfect" which is a theological position and therefore unprovable; that, too, is a matter of faith.

The burden of showing inerrancy of the scriptures, therefore, lies with the authors of The Fundamentals but since they're not around, it falls to anyone making the assertion.

So I ask you, did VP ever prove that the entire KJV was without error or contradiction?

Did he or anyone else ever show how the entire Bible "fit" together perfectly?

A few more observations before I get off my soapbox:

1) VP and most other fundamentalists do not state which Bible they are referring to when they say it "must be perfect because God is perfect."

So the question to ask them is, "Which canon of the scripture is inerrant?"

2) Why is it so important that the scriptures be "perfect"?

Many people find value, inspiration, etc. from scriptures in spite of the various viewpoints or contradictions found in it, like the different perspectives of the gospel writers.

3) If God is without contradiction, how do you account for even this simple example of contradiction about the God of Israel (apparently the same one VP taught us about) . One minute he says don't kill - no exceptions are stated. Two chapters later it says he tells Israel to go for it.

Dueteronomy 5:17: "Thou shalt not kill"

Dueteronomy 7: 2: "And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them...:

For those interested, more information about inerrancy is covered in most any book about fundamentalism from writers like James Barr, Ernest Sandeen, George Marsden, and in a book on Religious Literacy: What Every American Needs to Know - and Doesn't, by Stephen Prothero.

In closing, I'll just include this food for thought :

"...in addition to reading the Bible devotionally there is a value in reading it historically. To be sure, a historical reading can show many of the shortcomings of the Bible - discrepancies, contradictions, faulty claims, impossible statements, and harmful ideologies. But a historical reading can open up entirely new vistas in our understanding of the Bible and its multifarious messages."

~ Jesus, Interrupted by Bart Ehrman. Pg.282.

Cheers!

Pen

great posts Penworks! i'll add that "Religious Literacy" book to my list of must-read along with some others you mentioned in the front page article.

and for the record i just want to add i really appreciate not only your input here but the that of other folks who contribute thought provoking ideas which does more than open up some new vistas in understanding - it is sort of a goad to hone one's analytical skills.

....in some respects coming to Grease Spot has had a major impact on what i believe....not only in questioning every aspect of PFAL and the whole TWI lifestyle/mindset but even going deeper to perhaps the very core of my belief system.....maybe some would consider it "damaged faith" but i guess i've gotten down to the essence of what makes by "faith" [or whatever you want to call it] tick.

it's really just a return to my childhood "faith" - with a love and awe that i held for science and discovering all about this world of ours - there was some kind of reasoning in my head that the God my parents and church referred to truly existed and was responsible for all that.

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P.S. I should point out that The Fundamentals were published in the USA. There are probably other theologians in other countries who latched onto inerrancy, too. If I'm remembering correctly, E.W. Bullinger, from England (December 15, 1837 – June 6, 1913) may have been enamoured with the idea of inerrancy of the scriptures, too. He was from across the pond in England. As most TWI people know, his influence on VPW was huge.

http://en.wikipedia....E._W._Bullinger

This is a little more info on inerrancy that might help.

http://en.wikipedia....lical_inerrancy

Edited by penworks
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Now, this is a conversation I would really enjoy watching unfold......but, I don't hold out a great deal of hope.

Hope for what?

I found this regarding Bullinger and inerrancy:

Most widely known for The Companion Bible--the Authorized Version of 1611 with the Structures and Critical, Explanatory, and Suggestive Notes and with 198 Appendixes (Kregel), Bullinger's copious notes contain vast amounts of technical information, typically overwhelming the average reader today. He clearly and faithfully believed that the original canon of Scripture was the inerrant Word of God. However, his views on biblical inspiration contained subtle error, which in turn caused anomalies in his views regarding interpretation. While he acknowledged the Holy Spirit as "guide and teacher of His own Word", he did not believe in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for the new-creation believer and thus the biblical doctrine of the Spirit's illumination was conspicuously absent from his theology.

http://withchrist.org/bullinger.htm

Edited by penworks
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Hope for what?

That the points and issue which you have raised are going to be addressed by johniam in a fashion worthy of the subject! That may sound harsh...but I have yet to have any question or point addressed in any genuine or conversational(is that a word?) fashion. I have been called names though! :) insulted, and had my credibility challenged. Points addressed...not so much.

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That the points and issue which you have raised are going to be addressed by johniam in a fashion worthy of the subject! That may sound harsh...

but I have yet to have any question or point addressed in any genuine or conversational(is that a word?) fashion. I have been called names though! :) insulted, and had my credibility challenged. Points addressed...not so much.

you could always try a different approach....like crafting a long detailed post analyzing the insults, names and credibility challenges thrown at you - and at the very end you slip in one or two points like "....oh by the way, PFAL sucks and vp was full of chit." .....oh wait - i've already tried that....never mind. :rolleyes:

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I have been called names though! :) insulted, and had my credibility challenged.

That's why I keep driving home the point ad hominem arguments never work.

First, they're a way of diverting attention away from you inability to address the issue.

Second, the show lack of rationality in your argument, why else would you have to make it personal.

I think the calling names and insulting is carrying on Saint Vic's legecy. After all, Saint Vic being a bully, could only teach others to be bullies too.

SoCrates

Edited by So_crates
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All you guys got is....

VPW sinned in his flesh...therefore

nothing he ever said is true.

You can come up with many ways to say this and elaborate on it, but...

That's all you got.

Case dismissed.

That's a startling thing to say.

If this was from a new poster, I could excuse it as "they have read little" or

"someone misinformed them."

This black-and-white, you-are-against-me-or-for-me type of thinking is typical of

the dysfunctional thinking patterns twi foisted on its participants.

Some of us have rid ourselves of it, some of us have tried and failed, and some

of us are happy with living a simpler life where there are no nuances or anything

in between the extremes.

This position stated above is a bizarre caricature of a position, something nobody

has put forth. (Notice no references to anyone having actually SAID it in any

form, even "many ways" or "elaborated.")

How does one come to the place where posting this is "correct" after years of seeing

it obviously is non-factual? There's a few possibilities:

A) Lying is perfectly acceptable if the poster is the one doing it.

B) One can't see outside the mental "prison" of a framework that only holds extremes.

C) One can distort things if one is upset.

D) One is hallucinating completely and doesn't see the posts others make at all.

I find all the possibilities disappointing and sad.

That's why I keep driving home the point ad hominem arguments never work.

First, they're a way of diverting attention away from you inability to address the issue.

Second, the show lack of rationality in your argument, why else would you have to make it personal.

I think the calling names and insulting is carrying on Saint Vic's legecy. After all, Saint Vic being a bully, could only teach others to be bullies too.

SoCrates

Edited by WordWolf
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All you guys got is....

VPW sinned in his flesh...therefore

nothing he ever said is true.

You can come up with many ways to say this and elaborate on it, but...

That's all you got.

Case dismissed.

Penworks: I think there are several others on this thread who have made up their minds about VP.

Do I have to say it?

According to your chosen belief system:

  • If you believe people have made up their minds, then they have made up their minds. But its your believing.
  • If you think people think nothing Saint Vic ever said was true, then people will think nothing Saint Vic ever said was true. But its your believing.
  • If you believe the case is dismissed, the case is dismissed. But its your believing.

Renewed mind? Anyone?

SoCrates

Edited by So_crates
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One of the hallmarks of Protestant Fundamentalism is its claim of inerrant scripture. This is a relatively new idea about scripture, coming into play around 1920 when some theologians got upset about the critical and historical study of the documents contained in the Bible and put together about 12 long papers called The Fundamentals. (there are plenty of good books documenting the history of fundamentalism and you can Google The Fundamentals and find them online).

Historical study asks questions like: where did these documents come from, who wrote them, what kind of cultural influences did the writers inherit, etc. The theologians who wrote, The Fundamentals were afraid that such study undermined people's faith in God, Jesus, and salvation. I disagree with that, faith is faith, which by its nature does not depend on a book.

So inerrancy is a "new" claim about scriptures made from what I see as a defensive position. In my view, it stems from a fear that a study of the Bible's sources and different writers, claims, errors, etc. would bother people. I disagree. Plenty of Christians accept the imperfections in the texts while still believing in God, Jesus, salvation, etc.

So back to inerrancy. The history of fundamentalism shows that inerrancy is a man-made idea about scriptures and also of a God that has to be "perfect" which is a theological position and therefore unprovable; that, too, is a matter of faith.

Pen

Pen I'm just curious, have you ever read any works from F.F. Bruce, or Karl Barth? Specifically, Bruce's book entitled (I think) The Books and the Parchments?

Did I already ask you this before?

Edited by Broken Arrow
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So I ask you, did VP ever prove that the entire KJV was without error or contradiction?

Did he or anyone else ever show how the entire Bible "fit" together perfectly?

A few more observations before I get off my soapbox:

1) VP and most other fundamentalists do not state which Bible they are referring to when they say it "must be perfect because God is perfect."

So the question to ask them is, "Which canon of the scripture is inerrant?"

2) Why is it so important that the scriptures be "perfect"?

Many people find value, inspiration, etc. from scriptures in spite of the various viewpoints or contradictions found in it, like the different perspectives of the gospel writers.

Cheers!

Pen

I'm not a V.P. defender, but in my recollection V.P. said that no translation was the inerrant Word of God. He said the Word of God as it was originally given is inerrant. Of course, he considered himself to be the authority as to how the Word was originally given. So the Fundamentalists don't state the Bible to which they are referring because they don't deem any of them completely accurate.

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How could the books of the bible fit together perfectly? Charlemagne made an arbitrary decision about what books to put into the bible.

He threw out many other works such as the Gnostic Gospels and, I'm not sure, but also the book of Wisdom used in the Catholic bible.

SoCrates

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How could the books of the bible fit together perfectly? Charlemagne made an arbitrary decision about what books to put into the bible.

He threw out many other works such as the Gnostic Gospels and, I'm not sure, but also the book of Wisdom used in the Catholic bible.

SoCrates

SoCrates, that just isn't true. Did you mean to say Constantine instead of Charlemagne? Charlemagne lived quite a bit after the canon of scripture was decided.

Canonization was decided by a council of bishops (The word "bishop" was different than what we think today when we hear that word). The decisions made were far from arbitrary. Their criterion was what was already commonly believed by those of the Christian faith. So, it wasn't as if the council invented books or dictated new doctrine. The same thing is true of the Trinity, by the way, but that's a different topic.

As far as the gnostic gospels, have you ever read a gnostic gospel? If you do, you can easily see why they would hot have been accepted as canon. They weren't "repressed" as the DaVinci Code would suggest. The gnostic gospels in many instances contradict what was written in what is considered canon. They were also written, or supposedly surfaced, after the death of the original 12 Apostles.

You know, of course, the books of the old testament were already set. The early Christians did not see a need for a written canon as long as the original 12 disciples were around. When it was apparent they were going to die prior to Christ's return, they started seeing the importance of written records. They needed to arrive at a consensus as to what would be accepted as doctrine.

Edited by Broken Arrow
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Thanks, BA.

I seemed to have gotten my rulers crossed. I appreciate the correction.

Yes, I read the Gospel of Thomas some time back. It was amusing.

Thanks. I wondered why we chose the books of the New Testement we chose.

SoCrates

Edited by So_crates
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quote:

So inerrancy is a "new" claim about scriptures made from what I see as a defensive position. In my view, it stems from a fear that a study of the Bible's sources and different writers, claims, errors, etc. would bother people. I disagree. Plenty of Christians accept the imperfections in the texts while still believing in God, Jesus, salvation, etc.

If God is not perfect, then Jesus was not perfect, then our very salvation, eternal life, access to God is also in question. I refuse to debate this. God IS perfect, our salvation is a done deal, and Jesus finished the works his Father gave him to do. Scripture validates this.

2 Peter 1:20,21 - Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the holy ghost.

That says inerrancy to me.

John 10:35 - If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken.

If the scripture cannot be broken, then the scripture is inerrant.

We can and do debate what constitutes scripture. Example: the comma in 'verily I say unto you, today' or 'unto you today,' etc. VP has just as much right to reach conclusions as anybody else. I have as much right to choose him as a competent authority as others have to choose someone else.

quote: How does one come to the place where posting this is "correct" after years of seeing

it obviously is non-factual? There's a few possibilities:

A) Lying is perfectly acceptable if the poster is the one doing it.

B) One can't see outside the mental "prison" of a framework that only holds extremes.

C) One can distort things if one is upset.

D) One is hallucinating completely and doesn't see the posts others make at all.

I find all the possibilities disappointing and sad.

You keep attacking my credibility, yet you continue piling on as if the "integrity of GSC is always at stake". THAT is what is sad.

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You keep attacking my credibility,

According to your chosen belief system:

If you believe people are attacking your credibility, they are attacking your credibility. But its your negative believing causing it

SoCrates

Edited by So_crates
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John, you've been posting here for a decade. Do you still not understand the concept of making your posts more readable? Use the quote function. Use the bold option. Use different colors. Use something. Anything. If you want people to take you seriously, make a serious effort to be more easily understood.

Edited by waysider
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(shakes head sorrowfully)

Is it possible Johniam could suffer from Asperger's syndrome?

I can't think why else he would be so obsessed with one principal idea (about VP) and so lacking in empathy to other people - and so quick to jump from one thing to another and never stay on topic. Aspergers syndrome

Sorry, that's a bit personal, John, but I really do not understand why you don't empathize and follow along with conversations.

If there's a reason, I think we'd all be glad to cut you some slack.

Penworks, good to see you on this thread. You don't seem to have been around for a while.

Edited by Twinky
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(snip)

You keep attacking my credibility, yet you continue piling on as if the "integrity of GSC is always at stake". THAT is what is sad.

Oh, please.

Over a decade, and you STILL don't know how the internet works?

If you post ridiculous tripe, people will "call you" on it.

As they should.

Look-

if I posted some ridiculous nonsense without supporting it, I'd get replies pretty fast.

The nicer posts would insist on some evidence to support my claim.

The rest of the posts would show my claim was silly.

If I said

"vpw used to dress in women's clothing at the SNS, and preferred to be called "Sapphire"

when he was dressed up,"

you'd be all over that in a second.

The same is true of everyone, all over cyberspace.

But you seem to think you're special and get special treatment.

That would be cute if THAT wasn't sad also.

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All you guys got is....

VPW sinned in his flesh...therefore

nothing he ever said is true.

You can come up with many ways to say this and elaborate on it, but...

That's all you got.

Case dismissed.

Judge.gif

There's your error: the case was never closed, it was dismissed. So a mistrial can be declared.

SoCrates

Edited by So_crates
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All you guys got is....

VPW sinned in his flesh...therefore

nothing he ever said is true.

You can come up with many ways to say this and elaborate on it, but...

That's all you got.

Case dismissed.

False teaching is not a sin of the flesh...it issues from the heart. "...Ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ" That means that they twist the meaning of grace into a pretext for sin. Wow, does that sound like a familiar theme that runs through the stories of sexual abuse given by VP's victims. Imparting "healing wholeness"...that was when he sinned in the flesh...his rationalization and justification using God and scripture as a pretext.....that was something else.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Pharisees saw the work of The Holy Spirit in Jesus when He did miracles.....and they attributed it to Satan.

Saying Jesus of the church (paraphrased) is a devil spirit....is just another way to basically say the same thing.

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