quote: then what does that tell you about the organization?
Irrelevant. They taught me the bible; I believed what they taught; my life is better. End of controversy.
Next diary entry: Today was good. A 75' tall ash tree 2 1/2 feet in diameter fell during a storm 2 weeks ago. It destroyed fencing between my property and my neighbor's and it fell on a shed and all but destroyed that, too. The insurance adjuster cut us a check for tree removal and fence repair. The neighbor just laughed. They didn't even use the shed. So I called a believer and told him what happened. Today 5 guys came over. Three of them had chain saws and we rented a splitter. Started at 8:30, finished at 2PM. Lots of firewood, nothing in the neighbor's yard. Some of you probably call that "arborcide". I call it the family working together.
Why file a claim if there was no harm, no foul, or no need to pay for tree removal? Gonna send that part of the check back?
Who taught you about the bible? Who is the "they"?
I find it interesting that "putrid fruit" of an organization is raised, directly challenging Johniam; and he answers with something completely different. Ah well. Have at it, John.
Ah, but this is where YOUR focus is in question.
Putrid fruit? You're talking about ME! Me, and thousands MORE believers. We all still find much value in what VP did. How do you know YOU aren't the ones with your heads buried in the sand? But this is what we all have in common.
You have proved that you can live without anything remotely twi, and I and my ilk have proved that we CAN still fellowship together like in twi. It's a level playing field. I'm not the only game in town, and neither are you. This doesn't bother ME. What's YOUR problem?
quote: Why file a claim if there was no harm, no foul, or no need to pay for tree removal? Gonna send that part of the check back?
It's all about money to you, isn't it? Just because I need tree removal doesn't mean I have to pay top dollar. I DID pay for the rental of the splitter and I fed those guys. Overall it was a good transaction; those guys didn't intrude into our lives and we made it as convenient for them as we could. Our neighbors didn't seem to mind the noise. I probably got enough fire wood to last 3-5 years, but I'm going to give what I don't have room for to my neighbors. But leave it to you, the morality cop, to find SOMETHING wrong with it.
quote: Why file a claim if there was no harm, no foul, or no need to pay for tree removal? Gonna send that part of the check back?
It's all about money to you, isn't it? Just because I need tree removal doesn't mean I have to pay top dollar. I DID pay for the rental of the splitter and I fed those guys. Overall it was a good transaction; those guys didn't intrude into our lives and we made it as convenient for them as we could. Our neighbors didn't seem to mind the noise. I probably got enough fire wood to last 3-5 years, but I'm going to give what I don't have room for to my neighbors. But leave it to you, the morality cop, to find SOMETHING wrong with it.
No, I would have to say my question was more about being honest with money than money itself.
You handle your affairs how ever you like. If you feel that was an honest use of those funds and somehow that "transaction" was a "good" one and a blessing...... I could care less, but you put it out there, so I asked a question.
You claim to know the "word"and insist on giving credit to those who taught you how to understand the bible.....You say your life is better for it...so, holding what you say up to the light of scripture should not be a new phenomenon to you. I just asked...... why file a claim if there was no harm, no foul, and you had people to do the work for free. I wondered if you were going to return the money allocated specifically for paying for tree removal? You brought it up. Wouldn't you rent a splitter for firewood anyway? We always do...or we borrow one.
Questioning your little diary entry makes me a morality cop?
Aren't you the one who spoke so easily of others lack of submission? Does that make you the submission police? With Billy Graham are you the idolatry police?
Jesus spoke a great deal about the significance of how we handle money and I KNOW who taught you what the bible said. . . . he handled the bible the same way he handled money......with great self-interest in mind.
No harm, no foul? Didn't I say the tree was 70' tall and 2 1/2 feet thick at the base? It fell on fencing and a wooden shed. So you think it's morally wrong to convert the wood into fire wood? What was I supposed to do? Pay some company to come into my neighbor's yard and haul away a bunch of tree sections a foot tall and 2 1/2 feet thick? No thanks. For one thing, my neighbor called her landlord and he never came out to see the damage or called them back. That was 2 weeks ago. Well, remember that Michal the daughter of Saul thought it was morally wrong for David to bless all Israel with food and wine and dance naked. David did something to bless people and her first reflex was to lay a guilt trip on him. I ask my friends to help me out in a situation (hell of a way to spend a Saturday), so they do it to bless me, it blesses my neighbor to get the big tree out of his yard, it blesses him and other neighbors to get free firewood, but your first reflex is to lay a guilt trip on me about it.
My insurance adjuster knew I might need some of the money to do things other than tree removal and fence repair; he said so. I don't know exactly how the insurance business works. I know insurance fraud is a serious matter. But you ARE a morality cop if your first reflex is to find fault. You must be a lot of fun to be in a relationship with LOL.
Twinky: OK, I stopped posting on 'Dishing it out' like you said you wanted. Oldskool also requested that I not post there anymore even though I still don't think I alone did anything to that thread. But now nobody else is posting on it either. Jeez you guys are fickle. You should be thankful I started posting again; you haven't had this much excitement for awhile. I guess.
A straw man argument is one that misrepresents a position in order to make it appear weaker than it actually is, refutes this misrepresentation of the position, and then concludes that the real position has been refuted. This, of course, is a fallacy, because the position that has been claimed to be refuted is different to that which has actually been refuted; the real target of the argument is untouched by it.
No one ever said or implied it was wrong to convert the tree into firewood. Rather than address the issue raised by the poster, you created a straw man argument. Most people here are familiar with the concept. This is one of the reasons people become put off by some of the things you write. Now, if you really want people to listen to what you say and give it serious consideration, it would be in your best interest to learn to recognize when you are doing this and take messures to correct it. Of course, if you already know all this and are doing this intentionally, I wish you luck----and a durable soap box.
No harm, no foul? Didn't I say the tree was 70' tall and 2 1/2 feet thick at the base? It fell on fencing and a wooden shed. So you think it's morally wrong to convert the wood into fire wood? What was I supposed to do? Pay some company to come into my neighbor's yard and haul away a bunch of tree sections a foot tall and 2 1/2 feet thick? No thanks. For one thing, my neighbor called her landlord and he never came out to see the damage or called them back. That was 2 weeks ago. Well, remember that Michal the daughter of Saul thought it was morally wrong for David to bless all Israel with food and wine and dance naked. David did something to bless people and her first reflex was to lay a guilt trip on him. I ask my friends to help me out in a situation (hell of a way to spend a Saturday), so they do it to bless me, it blesses my neighbor to get the big tree out of his yard, it blesses him and other neighbors to get free firewood, but your first reflex is to lay a guilt trip on me about it.
My insurance adjuster knew I might need some of the money to do things other than tree removal and fence repair; he said so. I don't know exactly how the insurance business works. I know insurance fraud is a serious matter. But you ARE a morality cop if your first reflex is to find fault. You must be a lot of fun to be in a relationship with LOL.
I don't have any problems with the insurance angle. The adjusters are in business and are fully aware of the claim - you pay money every month on what I am supposing is homeowners insurance, so when things like that happen it is the service you pay for.
That is unless you were dancing naked. Then that is just a mind picture that is not really necessary
Twinky: OK, I stopped posting on 'Dishing it out' like you said you wanted. Oldskool also requested that I not post there anymore even though I still don't think I alone did anything to that thread. But now nobody else is posting on it either. Jeez you guys are fickle. You should be thankful I started posting again; you haven't had this much excitement for awhile. I guess.
Fair enough. That CFFM thread is pretty much complete - it's OK if activity dies out on it - there's always another thread. As far as excitement goes, I usually seek it off of the Internet ;) But maybe your goal is to rile people up here anyway.
When confronted with a specific question or topic of discussion....your posts usually go like this.....Straw man argument coupled with a few personal barbs thrown in to deflect from topic or self. This is interspersed with the occasional complaint that you are the one being misrepresented, and without providing a sufficient example you have accused others of responding to your posts with twisted logic. Not considering you may be the one with the issue, you have alluded to something far more sinister and ridiculous with vague talk of devil spirits. Add in a few, off color, and usually far fetched analogies, sprinkle in some inappropriate bending of scripture and we are right back in TWI. The only thing missing is extreme profanity. No wonder we stood there and took it for so long...it is frustrating and if we are not thinking for ourselves it can be very confusing. Now it just engenders my pity.
I should not have questioned you about your claim...it is none of my business, but, you put it out there, and I felt you were alluding to this being some kind of blessing from God and an example of the abundant life. It is an example of how TWI viewed blessing and an abundant life. I know that it is not uncommon for people to file a claim and keep the cash while doing the work themselves...but, Christians are to avoid what are termed "respectable sins." Sometimes we don't even recognize them. We should be above this kind of reproach, but we sometimes do fall short...I get that....what we don't do is infer something WE did, which could be construed the slightest bit shady, as a blessing from God. People who smuggle BIBLES into China actually wrestle with what they are doing.
Your response to the idea of a moral and above reproach God and His followers striving to live as He called us to live....AS HE IS!! Is similar to the one I had in TWI. I would slap the term religious on it...mock it, and then believe I was God's best and that God was deaf dumb and blind to how I conducted myself. I was a master at bringing God down to my level. I never understood this is actually blasphemous.Creating a God in our own image is what idolatry is......
I don't have any problems with the insurance angle. The adjusters are in business and are fully aware of the claim - you pay money every month on what I am supposing is homeowners insurance, so when things like that happen it is the service you pay for.
Seems logical right? You pay...you file...done deal.
Try filing 3 claims in a 5 year period and see what happens. Insurance companies drop clients who file claims....they say....unless your house burns down....don't file. An insurance adjuster told me that....it is because people file claims...keep the money and often the work goes undone or is half done. Rates go up when claims are filed. It doesn't matter how long you pay into a policy either. They will drop you. Once you are dropped it is difficult to get re-insured without paying a fortune. My state actually has an agency who has to insure you on a specific underwritten policy. IF you don't file a claim for a probationary period...you may be able to re-insure in the voluntary market at a much higher rate.
It is a business and they are fully aware...but, they are in business to make money.
Oldskool also requested that I not post there anymore even though I still don't think I alone did anything to that thread.
I am happy if you are any else posts there, I am just trying keep on topic, and I am guilty as anyone else for going off topic. No problems here, JohnIam.
It is a business and they are fully aware...but, they are in business to make money.
Don't get me started on insurance. They are selling air and statistics. And they do hedge their bets against statistics when they lose like you describe. All of which makes me not lose any sleep for filing claims when accidents happen.
I'm really not out of the woods yet. The storm blew the tree down 11:30 PM late on a Sunday night. The news advised everybody to go down the basement at that time. Monday was when the adjuster came, saw the damage and made his conclusions. He retreated to a car computer which calculated the mean costs for tree removal and fence replacement for that size fence. I'm going to try to remove the fence myself, but if I do have to hire someone to come for anything, then the cost may exceed all the money they gave me. This is the first, and hopefully, last claim I'll ever file with them. The only other time I filed a claim with homeowners was 2001, when a hailstorm battered our roof, but that was with another insurer.
Geisha, yes, I think it glorifies God when his family comes together to help someone in need. Even non Christians can do that. As far as "respectable sins" are concerned, to me it's not a moral issue as much as it's a quality of life issue. If God really is our Father and not just our God, then shouldn't we feel comfortable in His presence, even if we just screwed something up, or still have weaknesses of our flesh? Do the Obama girls have to beg their dad with sackcloth and ashes if they want to get something out of the refrigerator at the white house residential area? Is Barack Obama just their president now or is he still their daddy? Doesn't he love them the same way, or does he have to filter their daddy love through their presidential love? But God isn't as loving as our president?
I don't provoke my kids to wrath by keeping them scared that I don't love them any more by making too many rules for them. At least, not on purpose. Sure, kids need discipline; even God's kids. Hebrews 12 says God corrects those He loves. Personally, I'd rather be too laid back than too harsh.
Geisha, yes, I think it glorifies God when his family comes together to help someone in need. Even non Christians can do that. As far as "respectable sins" are concerned, to me it's not a moral issue as much as it's a quality of life issue. If God really is our Father and not just our God, then shouldn't we feel comfortable in His presence, even if we just screwed something up, or still have weaknesses of our flesh? Do the Obama girls have to beg their dad with sackcloth and ashes if they want to get something out of the refrigerator at the white house residential area? Is Barack Obama just their president now or is he still their daddy? Doesn't he love them the same way, or does he have to filter their daddy love through their presidential love? But God isn't as loving as our president?
I don't provoke my kids to wrath by keeping them scared that I don't love them any more by making too many rules for them. At least, not on purpose. Sure, kids need discipline; even God's kids. Hebrews 12 says God corrects those He loves. Personally, I'd rather be too laid back than too harsh.
I never asked if you thought people coming together glorified God. You are again, answering a question I never asked or even intimated at, why are you doing that?
And didn't Jesus say His burdens were not too heavy? Not sinning should not be a rule or burden...it should be our desire.....and after all Jesus paid a high price for our sin....but, that doesn't mean we should continue in them.
And in God's presence I have to go with Job on this one......
Then Job replied to the LORD: I know that You can do anything and no plan of Yours can be thwarted. [You asked,] "Who is this who conceals [My] counsel with ignorance?" Surely I spoke about things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know. [You said,] "Listen now, and I will speak. When I question you, you will inform Me." I had heard rumors about You, but now my eyes have seen You. Therefore I take back [my words] and repent in dust and ashes.
Job wasn't even being called a sinner by God, he was an upright and righteous man. No, I am not comfortable in God's presence when I sin. . . reason being...I am not in God's presence when I sin....but, when I repent it is another story.
Should you not fear me?" declares the LORD.
"Should you not tremble in my presence?
Comfort is not the word I would use to describe being in God's holy presence at all...awestruck, amazed, joyful, thankful, repentant, worshipful, full of praise....knocked to my knees....are really more apt phrases....and if you take a look at those in scripture who have truly been in the presence of God.....you will find comfort is not a theme.
Now, if you want to hold God up to the standard of an earthly father...go right ahead. I find what works better is holding myself up to God's standard. Instead of likening God to Obama...you might want to look at how Jesus was with His Father. Obedient, respectful, worshipful, and humble.
In TWI, we did not want God to be holy because then we would have to change.....but He is holy....and when we truly know Him...he does change us and we do want to be like Him. That doesn't mean we are perfect, but our desires change as we are sanctified by Him.
Geisha, yes, I think it glorifies God when his family comes together to help someone in need. Even non Christians can do that. As far as "respectable sins" are concerned, to me it's not a moral issue as much as it's a quality of life issue. If God really is our Father and not just our God, then shouldn't we feel comfortable in His presence, even if we just screwed something up, or still have weaknesses of our flesh? Do the Obama girls have to beg their dad with sackcloth and ashes if they want to get something out of the refrigerator at the white house residential area? Is Barack Obama just their president now or is he still their daddy? Doesn't he love them the same way, or does he have to filter their daddy love through their presidential love? But God isn't as loving as our president?
You know on this element, honestly I'm a little more alarmed with you at your acceptance of all the evil at the top of TWI because it doesn't affect you than I am about a few people in your local fellowship coming over for a chainsaw wood splitting party.
What of all the control at the top of TWI? What of the regurgitatingly vanilla STS teachings, magazine articles? What of the mandates regarding debt? The egotistical arrogant attitude?
These are matters of substance, not how many youth fellowship members like your rendition of an old Dean Ellenwood song.
quote: Hey, Johniam, glad your tree landed where the damage was minimal. Not through the middle of anyone's house or on top of anyone.
Small stuff (happily) compared with what's going on in Japan right now.
I could use the same argument when sex abuse victims tell their stories. I could say that in India it's still possible for a husband to find his wife not pleasing and have her burned. That twi sex abuse is small stuff compared to that. I didn't think you'd be impressed.
quote: and if you take a look at those in scripture who have truly been in the presence of God
Job was not a son of God; he was a servant. We in the grace administration (the great mystery) are sons and daughters. The finished work of Jesus changed a few things. Mankind now has access to God; no more servants, but sons! You are in the presence of God for eternity.
quote:
You know on this element, honestly I'm a little more alarmed with you at your acceptance of all the evil at the top of TWI because it doesn't affect you than I am about a few people in your local fellowship coming over for a chainsaw wood splitting party.
What of all the control at the top of TWI? What of the regurgitatingly vanilla STS teachings, magazine articles? What of the mandates regarding debt? The egotistical arrogant attitude?
Actually, I did not accept this. That was when I walked away. I can't imagine what it feels like to have submitted to LCMs vanity for those years. Well, the only clue I have is what I have read here about the MI limb/region leader who 1) told me I was too dangerous to mingle with the household of God, 2) left twi saying he'd been following a lunatic for 6 years, 3) called Wayne Clapp after he left saying that he didn't know what he was going to do right then, that he was going to take time to figure it out, and 4) ended up going into business and doing well (but not being a clergyman anymore). When that guy first came to MI we heard he was the best quality limb leader we'd had in over 10 years. When he spoke to me telling me I wasn't welcome in twi fellowships he said he could guaran-damn-tee me he wasn't going to change his mind. I don't know him personally, but it appears he experienced some 'vexation of spirit' dealing with this.
But again, compare that with the US government. Has there not been "evil" at the top of it as well? Should I 1) expatriate, 2) become a revolutionary of some kind, 3)join a cult (oops, already did that), or 4) just deal with stuff? If the evil in the US government doesn't affect you, it's easier to blow it off, I guess. I just believe we all have access to God and that He can make a lot of stuff right. God doesn't favor me above any of you.
I could use the same argument when sex abuse victims tell their stories. I could say that in India it's still possible for a husband to find his wife not pleasing and have her burned. That twi sex abuse is small stuff compared to that. I didn't think you'd be impressed.
Having a five year old neice that was raped; a fiancee that was the victim of repeated sex abuse at the hands of her god brother; and a former girlfriend's daughter who was molested, allow me to speak for all of Saint Vic and Craigmiester's victims. What did you just say? How can you compare apples and oranges like woman being burned in India and a sex abuse victim?
What an uninformed and heartless thing to say. You say people misrepresent you, yet you turn right around and minimize people like excartha's pain. I dare you. I dare you.
quote: and if you take a look at those in scripture who have truly been in the presence of God
Job was not a son of God; he was a servant. We in the grace administration (the great mystery) are sons and daughters. The finished work of Jesus changed a few things. Mankind now has access to God; no more servants, but sons! You are in the presence of God for eternity.
You don't really understand what I am talking about ...do you? Okay Johniam, read about Paul being caught up to the 3rd heaven...inexpressable things...Paul's little trip on the road to Damascus...Stephen...which always moves me because the Lord is seated at the right hand of God...He stood for Stephen, a martyr. How about John, who the Lord especially loved... falling as dead before God...why?
You do understand it was also faith that saved Abraham...right? That God Himself took the body of Moses...and Elijah(The two that were at the transfiguration?) or that Moses is the one whom God showed Himself to....what happened to his countenance? These men had access to God...God spoke directly to Job from the whirlwind. HE ASKED JOB QUESTIONS!!!! Job said...my ears have heard of you, but now my eyes see you...I take back my words and repent! God spoke to Job friends too! These poor old testament saints...clueless...right? Someone should have told them about administrations.
When Romans speaks to being no more servants but sons......what does that mean to you? Because what it is saying.....is...we are no more servants to....SIN!!! Paul, who may have known a little about the "mystery" ....when he wasn't identifying himself as least of all the saints....chief among sinners....called himself a what? Servant. You can use all the WAY catch phrases you like...they are, for the most part, not theologically sound. Haven't you learned anything since you left TWI?
Same God. His presence doesn't change and neither does our response to Him and neither SHOULD our response to Him. Once again, you have given us TWI's anthropocentric theology.
I could use the same argument when sex abuse victims tell their stories. I could say that in India it's still possible for a husband to find his wife not pleasing and have her burned. That twi sex abuse is small stuff compared to that. I didn't think you'd be impressed.
That you could. It wouldn't be very classy at all though. Comparisons with loss of property seem to be something more universal to discuss. Sex abuse - not so much.
Job was not a son of God; he was a servant. We in the grace administration (the great mystery) are sons and daughters. The finished work of Jesus changed a few things. Mankind now has access to God; no more servants, but sons! You are in the presence of God for eternity.
Actually when I die and then wake up at the return I'll be in the presence of God for eternity. Now I seem to be in the presence of idiots and their tomfoolery. Just a general statement on the nature of mankind - nothing personal.
Actually, I did not accept this. That was when I walked away. I can't imagine what it feels like to have submitted to LCMs vanity for those years. Well, the only clue I have is what I have read here about the MI limb/region leader who 1) told me I was too dangerous to mingle with the household of God, 2) left twi saying he'd been following a lunatic for 6 years, 3) called Wayne Clapp after he left saying that he didn't know what he was going to do right then, that he was going to take time to figure it out, and 4) ended up going into business and doing well (but not being a clergyman anymore). When that guy first came to MI we heard he was the best quality limb leader we'd had in over 10 years. When he spoke to me telling me I wasn't welcome in twi fellowships he said he could guaran-damn-tee me he wasn't going to change his mind. I don't know him personally, but it appears he experienced some 'vexation of spirit' dealing with this.
It feels like needing to describe the nature of mankind as idiots. They tend to impose upon themselves 'vexation of spirit'. But not before they vex others to their maximum potential.
But again, compare that with the US government. Has there not been "evil" at the top of it as well? Should I 1) expatriate, 2) become a revolutionary of some kind, 3)join a cult (oops, already did that), or 4) just deal with stuff? If the evil in the US government doesn't affect you, it's easier to blow it off, I guess. I just believe we all have access to God and that He can make a lot of stuff right. God doesn't favor me above any of you.
OK. More tentacles but less money?
I actually wouldn't describe the US government as having "evil" at the top. I wouldn't want to hurt the devil's feelings by comparing him to US Senators. I would describe it more as "lies, d@m-n lies, and politics".
As far as the "what should I do?" there is the dilemma. Fight, flight, or apathy. If you believe the US has inherent value then fight is a good option. If not, then flight. Apathy is what most of the ground slugs on the planet settle for.
Does this hold true for TWI? Well, anecdotes help here. The latest in a long line of people with pedigrees trying the "fight" method recently got demoted and moved out "on the field". Guy whose dad was one of the longest standing clergymen and doofaces, etc. You could try the fight, but statistics show that unless someone grew some juevos and sent the legendary lady couple at the top packing you'd just wake up with a knife in your back. So it seems the "flight" and "apathy" options are the two most commonly picked lately.
"I could use the same argument when sex abuse victims tell their stories. I could say that in India it's still possible for a husband to find his wife not pleasing and have her burned. That twi sex abuse is small stuff compared to that."
Yes, you could use that argument. You would be relying on a flawed comparison, though. First, because the issue of wife abuse in India is not the topic of discussion. Even though this topic is a serious one, introducing it into a discussion of sexual abuse in The Way is a bit of a Red Herring. It's important, yes, but, not relevant. It's a distraction. Secondly, it serves little purpose other than to minimize the seriousness of what took place in The Way regarding sexual abuse. Sexual abuse in The Way was/is a very serious matter and should be treated as such, not rationalized or compared with something unrelated.
Have you ever been raped, John? Men do get raped, you know. By other men. But,my guess is that you have not. Because, if you had, I don't think you would be so quick to minimize the physical pain, loss of self confidence, sense of unworthiness and mental anguish that accompanies it. I don't think you would want anyone calling it "small stuff" in comparison to anything.
"I could use the same argument when sex abuse victims tell their stories. I could say that in India it's still possible for a husband to find his wife not pleasing and have her burned. That twi sex abuse is small stuff compared to that."
I am just confused as to what he means 'have her burned." it sounds like a husband just takes his wife to the local magistrate and turns her over....the husbands do it themselves.. . . it is prosecutable domestic violence in India. Delhi and now other areas have specific task forces dedicated to prosecuting this type of domestic violence.... just like we do. It was long a practice to torture the bride to exhort more dowry money from the brides family......but it is illegal. The Supreme Court of India as ruled a woman's dowry to be her own property and she has absolute rights of them. A husband has to return the dowry if they divorce or he can be prosecuted.
And just a point...it is POSSIBLE for any husband to do the same or any wife to do the same...anywhere. Wasn't 'The Burning Bed" based on a true story? So what....
What does domestic violence in India have to do with some cult leader in Ohio abusing women ? One doesn't make the other less brutal? It is just a different face of abuse. It all comes from evil.
quote: Hey, Johniam, glad your tree landed where the damage was minimal. Not through the middle of anyone's house or on top of anyone.
Small stuff (happily) compared with what's going on in Japan right now.
I could use the same argument when sex abuse victims tell their stories. I could say that in India it's still possible for a husband to find his wife not pleasing and have her burned. That twi sex abuse is small stuff compared to that. I didn't think you'd be impressed.
Johniam...what's with your brain? I was actually trying to be a bit nice to you. Rejoicing with you that the damage was minimal in comparison with what it could have been.
You are not (as far as I know) a sex abuse victim - so don't compare yourself with one.
Sex abuse is nothing to do with trees falling on one's property. What a rubbish comparison.
I am truly sorry for the people of Japan who have lost families, homes, cities...everything. It's all matchsticks. Thousands dead. Yet that doesn't seem to touch your heart at all. You have no empathy but want to discuss something completely irrelevant. Suttee. Huh????
Nobody here wants to burn you.
Though if you keep on with your inane comments, a line might form to do just that.
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"I could use the same argument when sex abuse victims tell their stories. I could say that in India it's still possible for a husband to find his wife not pleasing and have her burned. That twi sex ab
WordWolf
Sounds like you have a LOT of different "they's". Are "they" all one big "they", or are there many independent "theys" that lack specific names? "They" is INCREDIBLY vague- and thus INCREDIBLY CONV
waysider
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geisha779
Why file a claim if there was no harm, no foul, or no need to pay for tree removal? Gonna send that part of the check back?
Who taught you about the bible? Who is the "they"?
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waysider
VP and Howard
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chockfull
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johniam
quote:
I find it interesting that "putrid fruit" of an organization is raised, directly challenging Johniam; and he answers with something completely different. Ah well. Have at it, John.
Ah, but this is where YOUR focus is in question.
Putrid fruit? You're talking about ME! Me, and thousands MORE believers. We all still find much value in what VP did. How do you know YOU aren't the ones with your heads buried in the sand? But this is what we all have in common.
You have proved that you can live without anything remotely twi, and I and my ilk have proved that we CAN still fellowship together like in twi. It's a level playing field. I'm not the only game in town, and neither are you. This doesn't bother ME. What's YOUR problem?
quote: Why file a claim if there was no harm, no foul, or no need to pay for tree removal? Gonna send that part of the check back?
It's all about money to you, isn't it? Just because I need tree removal doesn't mean I have to pay top dollar. I DID pay for the rental of the splitter and I fed those guys. Overall it was a good transaction; those guys didn't intrude into our lives and we made it as convenient for them as we could. Our neighbors didn't seem to mind the noise. I probably got enough fire wood to last 3-5 years, but I'm going to give what I don't have room for to my neighbors. But leave it to you, the morality cop, to find SOMETHING wrong with it.
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geisha779
No, I would have to say my question was more about being honest with money than money itself.
You handle your affairs how ever you like. If you feel that was an honest use of those funds and somehow that "transaction" was a "good" one and a blessing...... I could care less, but you put it out there, so I asked a question.
You claim to know the "word"and insist on giving credit to those who taught you how to understand the bible.....You say your life is better for it...so, holding what you say up to the light of scripture should not be a new phenomenon to you. I just asked...... why file a claim if there was no harm, no foul, and you had people to do the work for free. I wondered if you were going to return the money allocated specifically for paying for tree removal? You brought it up. Wouldn't you rent a splitter for firewood anyway? We always do...or we borrow one.
Questioning your little diary entry makes me a morality cop?
Aren't you the one who spoke so easily of others lack of submission? Does that make you the submission police? With Billy Graham are you the idolatry police?
Jesus spoke a great deal about the significance of how we handle money and I KNOW who taught you what the bible said. . . . he handled the bible the same way he handled money......with great self-interest in mind.
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johniam
No harm, no foul? Didn't I say the tree was 70' tall and 2 1/2 feet thick at the base? It fell on fencing and a wooden shed. So you think it's morally wrong to convert the wood into fire wood? What was I supposed to do? Pay some company to come into my neighbor's yard and haul away a bunch of tree sections a foot tall and 2 1/2 feet thick? No thanks. For one thing, my neighbor called her landlord and he never came out to see the damage or called them back. That was 2 weeks ago. Well, remember that Michal the daughter of Saul thought it was morally wrong for David to bless all Israel with food and wine and dance naked. David did something to bless people and her first reflex was to lay a guilt trip on him. I ask my friends to help me out in a situation (hell of a way to spend a Saturday), so they do it to bless me, it blesses my neighbor to get the big tree out of his yard, it blesses him and other neighbors to get free firewood, but your first reflex is to lay a guilt trip on me about it.
My insurance adjuster knew I might need some of the money to do things other than tree removal and fence repair; he said so. I don't know exactly how the insurance business works. I know insurance fraud is a serious matter. But you ARE a morality cop if your first reflex is to find fault. You must be a lot of fun to be in a relationship with LOL.
Twinky: OK, I stopped posting on 'Dishing it out' like you said you wanted. Oldskool also requested that I not post there anymore even though I still don't think I alone did anything to that thread. But now nobody else is posting on it either. Jeez you guys are fickle. You should be thankful I started posting again; you haven't had this much excitement for awhile. I guess.
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waysider
Creative criticism
This is called a straw man fallacy, John.
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Straw Man Fallacy
Explanation
A straw man argument is one that misrepresents a position in order to make it appear weaker than it actually is, refutes this misrepresentation of the position, and then concludes that the real position has been refuted. This, of course, is a fallacy, because the position that has been claimed to be refuted is different to that which has actually been refuted; the real target of the argument is untouched by it.
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No one ever said or implied it was wrong to convert the tree into firewood. Rather than address the issue raised by the poster, you created a straw man argument. Most people here are familiar with the concept. This is one of the reasons people become put off by some of the things you write. Now, if you really want people to listen to what you say and give it serious consideration, it would be in your best interest to learn to recognize when you are doing this and take messures to correct it. Of course, if you already know all this and are doing this intentionally, I wish you luck----and a durable soap box.
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chockfull
I don't have any problems with the insurance angle. The adjusters are in business and are fully aware of the claim - you pay money every month on what I am supposing is homeowners insurance, so when things like that happen it is the service you pay for.
That is unless you were dancing naked. Then that is just a mind picture that is not really necessary
Fair enough. That CFFM thread is pretty much complete - it's OK if activity dies out on it - there's always another thread. As far as excitement goes, I usually seek it off of the Internet ;) But maybe your goal is to rile people up here anyway.
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geisha779
Johniam
When confronted with a specific question or topic of discussion....your posts usually go like this.....Straw man argument coupled with a few personal barbs thrown in to deflect from topic or self. This is interspersed with the occasional complaint that you are the one being misrepresented, and without providing a sufficient example you have accused others of responding to your posts with twisted logic. Not considering you may be the one with the issue, you have alluded to something far more sinister and ridiculous with vague talk of devil spirits. Add in a few, off color, and usually far fetched analogies, sprinkle in some inappropriate bending of scripture and we are right back in TWI. The only thing missing is extreme profanity. No wonder we stood there and took it for so long...it is frustrating and if we are not thinking for ourselves it can be very confusing. Now it just engenders my pity.
I should not have questioned you about your claim...it is none of my business, but, you put it out there, and I felt you were alluding to this being some kind of blessing from God and an example of the abundant life. It is an example of how TWI viewed blessing and an abundant life. I know that it is not uncommon for people to file a claim and keep the cash while doing the work themselves...but, Christians are to avoid what are termed "respectable sins." Sometimes we don't even recognize them. We should be above this kind of reproach, but we sometimes do fall short...I get that....what we don't do is infer something WE did, which could be construed the slightest bit shady, as a blessing from God. People who smuggle BIBLES into China actually wrestle with what they are doing.
Your response to the idea of a moral and above reproach God and His followers striving to live as He called us to live....AS HE IS!! Is similar to the one I had in TWI. I would slap the term religious on it...mock it, and then believe I was God's best and that God was deaf dumb and blind to how I conducted myself. I was a master at bringing God down to my level. I never understood this is actually blasphemous.Creating a God in our own image is what idolatry is......
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geisha779
Seems logical right? You pay...you file...done deal.
Try filing 3 claims in a 5 year period and see what happens. Insurance companies drop clients who file claims....they say....unless your house burns down....don't file. An insurance adjuster told me that....it is because people file claims...keep the money and often the work goes undone or is half done. Rates go up when claims are filed. It doesn't matter how long you pay into a policy either. They will drop you. Once you are dropped it is difficult to get re-insured without paying a fortune. My state actually has an agency who has to insure you on a specific underwritten policy. IF you don't file a claim for a probationary period...you may be able to re-insure in the voluntary market at a much higher rate.
It is a business and they are fully aware...but, they are in business to make money.
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OldSkool
I am happy if you are any else posts there, I am just trying keep on topic, and I am guilty as anyone else for going off topic. No problems here, JohnIam.
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chockfull
Don't get me started on insurance. They are selling air and statistics. And they do hedge their bets against statistics when they lose like you describe. All of which makes me not lose any sleep for filing claims when accidents happen.
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johniam
I'm really not out of the woods yet. The storm blew the tree down 11:30 PM late on a Sunday night. The news advised everybody to go down the basement at that time. Monday was when the adjuster came, saw the damage and made his conclusions. He retreated to a car computer which calculated the mean costs for tree removal and fence replacement for that size fence. I'm going to try to remove the fence myself, but if I do have to hire someone to come for anything, then the cost may exceed all the money they gave me. This is the first, and hopefully, last claim I'll ever file with them. The only other time I filed a claim with homeowners was 2001, when a hailstorm battered our roof, but that was with another insurer.
Geisha, yes, I think it glorifies God when his family comes together to help someone in need. Even non Christians can do that. As far as "respectable sins" are concerned, to me it's not a moral issue as much as it's a quality of life issue. If God really is our Father and not just our God, then shouldn't we feel comfortable in His presence, even if we just screwed something up, or still have weaknesses of our flesh? Do the Obama girls have to beg their dad with sackcloth and ashes if they want to get something out of the refrigerator at the white house residential area? Is Barack Obama just their president now or is he still their daddy? Doesn't he love them the same way, or does he have to filter their daddy love through their presidential love? But God isn't as loving as our president?
I don't provoke my kids to wrath by keeping them scared that I don't love them any more by making too many rules for them. At least, not on purpose. Sure, kids need discipline; even God's kids. Hebrews 12 says God corrects those He loves. Personally, I'd rather be too laid back than too harsh.
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Twinky
Hey, Johniam, glad your tree landed where the damage was minimal. Not through the middle of anyone's house or on top of anyone.
Small stuff (happily) compared with what's going on in Japan right now.
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geisha779
I never asked if you thought people coming together glorified God. You are again, answering a question I never asked or even intimated at, why are you doing that?
And didn't Jesus say His burdens were not too heavy? Not sinning should not be a rule or burden...it should be our desire.....and after all Jesus paid a high price for our sin....but, that doesn't mean we should continue in them.
And in God's presence I have to go with Job on this one......
Then Job replied to the LORD: I know that You can do anything and no plan of Yours can be thwarted. [You asked,] "Who is this who conceals [My] counsel with ignorance?" Surely I spoke about things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know. [You said,] "Listen now, and I will speak. When I question you, you will inform Me." I had heard rumors about You, but now my eyes have seen You. Therefore I take back [my words] and repent in dust and ashes.
Job wasn't even being called a sinner by God, he was an upright and righteous man. No, I am not comfortable in God's presence when I sin. . . reason being...I am not in God's presence when I sin....but, when I repent it is another story.
Should you not fear me?" declares the LORD.
"Should you not tremble in my presence?
Comfort is not the word I would use to describe being in God's holy presence at all...awestruck, amazed, joyful, thankful, repentant, worshipful, full of praise....knocked to my knees....are really more apt phrases....and if you take a look at those in scripture who have truly been in the presence of God.....you will find comfort is not a theme.
Now, if you want to hold God up to the standard of an earthly father...go right ahead. I find what works better is holding myself up to God's standard. Instead of likening God to Obama...you might want to look at how Jesus was with His Father. Obedient, respectful, worshipful, and humble.
In TWI, we did not want God to be holy because then we would have to change.....but He is holy....and when we truly know Him...he does change us and we do want to be like Him. That doesn't mean we are perfect, but our desires change as we are sanctified by Him.
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chockfull
You know on this element, honestly I'm a little more alarmed with you at your acceptance of all the evil at the top of TWI because it doesn't affect you than I am about a few people in your local fellowship coming over for a chainsaw wood splitting party.
What of all the control at the top of TWI? What of the regurgitatingly vanilla STS teachings, magazine articles? What of the mandates regarding debt? The egotistical arrogant attitude?
These are matters of substance, not how many youth fellowship members like your rendition of an old Dean Ellenwood song.
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johniam
quote: Hey, Johniam, glad your tree landed where the damage was minimal. Not through the middle of anyone's house or on top of anyone.
Small stuff (happily) compared with what's going on in Japan right now.
I could use the same argument when sex abuse victims tell their stories. I could say that in India it's still possible for a husband to find his wife not pleasing and have her burned. That twi sex abuse is small stuff compared to that. I didn't think you'd be impressed.
quote: and if you take a look at those in scripture who have truly been in the presence of God
Job was not a son of God; he was a servant. We in the grace administration (the great mystery) are sons and daughters. The finished work of Jesus changed a few things. Mankind now has access to God; no more servants, but sons! You are in the presence of God for eternity.
quote:
You know on this element, honestly I'm a little more alarmed with you at your acceptance of all the evil at the top of TWI because it doesn't affect you than I am about a few people in your local fellowship coming over for a chainsaw wood splitting party.
What of all the control at the top of TWI? What of the regurgitatingly vanilla STS teachings, magazine articles? What of the mandates regarding debt? The egotistical arrogant attitude?
Actually, I did not accept this. That was when I walked away. I can't imagine what it feels like to have submitted to LCMs vanity for those years. Well, the only clue I have is what I have read here about the MI limb/region leader who 1) told me I was too dangerous to mingle with the household of God, 2) left twi saying he'd been following a lunatic for 6 years, 3) called Wayne Clapp after he left saying that he didn't know what he was going to do right then, that he was going to take time to figure it out, and 4) ended up going into business and doing well (but not being a clergyman anymore). When that guy first came to MI we heard he was the best quality limb leader we'd had in over 10 years. When he spoke to me telling me I wasn't welcome in twi fellowships he said he could guaran-damn-tee me he wasn't going to change his mind. I don't know him personally, but it appears he experienced some 'vexation of spirit' dealing with this.
But again, compare that with the US government. Has there not been "evil" at the top of it as well? Should I 1) expatriate, 2) become a revolutionary of some kind, 3)join a cult (oops, already did that), or 4) just deal with stuff? If the evil in the US government doesn't affect you, it's easier to blow it off, I guess. I just believe we all have access to God and that He can make a lot of stuff right. God doesn't favor me above any of you.
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So_crates
Having a five year old neice that was raped; a fiancee that was the victim of repeated sex abuse at the hands of her god brother; and a former girlfriend's daughter who was molested, allow me to speak for all of Saint Vic and Craigmiester's victims. What did you just say? How can you compare apples and oranges like woman being burned in India and a sex abuse victim?
What an uninformed and heartless thing to say. You say people misrepresent you, yet you turn right around and minimize people like excartha's pain. I dare you. I dare you.
SoCrates
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geisha779
You don't really understand what I am talking about ...do you? Okay Johniam, read about Paul being caught up to the 3rd heaven...inexpressable things...Paul's little trip on the road to Damascus...Stephen...which always moves me because the Lord is seated at the right hand of God...He stood for Stephen, a martyr. How about John, who the Lord especially loved... falling as dead before God...why?
You do understand it was also faith that saved Abraham...right? That God Himself took the body of Moses...and Elijah(The two that were at the transfiguration?) or that Moses is the one whom God showed Himself to....what happened to his countenance? These men had access to God...God spoke directly to Job from the whirlwind. HE ASKED JOB QUESTIONS!!!! Job said...my ears have heard of you, but now my eyes see you...I take back my words and repent! God spoke to Job friends too! These poor old testament saints...clueless...right? Someone should have told them about administrations.
When Romans speaks to being no more servants but sons......what does that mean to you? Because what it is saying.....is...we are no more servants to....SIN!!! Paul, who may have known a little about the "mystery" ....when he wasn't identifying himself as least of all the saints....chief among sinners....called himself a what? Servant. You can use all the WAY catch phrases you like...they are, for the most part, not theologically sound. Haven't you learned anything since you left TWI?
Same God. His presence doesn't change and neither does our response to Him and neither SHOULD our response to Him. Once again, you have given us TWI's anthropocentric theology.
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chockfull
That you could. It wouldn't be very classy at all though. Comparisons with loss of property seem to be something more universal to discuss. Sex abuse - not so much.
Actually when I die and then wake up at the return I'll be in the presence of God for eternity. Now I seem to be in the presence of idiots and their tomfoolery. Just a general statement on the nature of mankind - nothing personal.
It feels like needing to describe the nature of mankind as idiots. They tend to impose upon themselves 'vexation of spirit'. But not before they vex others to their maximum potential.
OK. More tentacles but less money?
I actually wouldn't describe the US government as having "evil" at the top. I wouldn't want to hurt the devil's feelings by comparing him to US Senators. I would describe it more as "lies, d@m-n lies, and politics".
As far as the "what should I do?" there is the dilemma. Fight, flight, or apathy. If you believe the US has inherent value then fight is a good option. If not, then flight. Apathy is what most of the ground slugs on the planet settle for.
Does this hold true for TWI? Well, anecdotes help here. The latest in a long line of people with pedigrees trying the "fight" method recently got demoted and moved out "on the field". Guy whose dad was one of the longest standing clergymen and doofaces, etc. You could try the fight, but statistics show that unless someone grew some juevos and sent the legendary lady couple at the top packing you'd just wake up with a knife in your back. So it seems the "flight" and "apathy" options are the two most commonly picked lately.
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waysider
"I could use the same argument when sex abuse victims tell their stories. I could say that in India it's still possible for a husband to find his wife not pleasing and have her burned. That twi sex abuse is small stuff compared to that."
Yes, you could use that argument. You would be relying on a flawed comparison, though. First, because the issue of wife abuse in India is not the topic of discussion. Even though this topic is a serious one, introducing it into a discussion of sexual abuse in The Way is a bit of a Red Herring. It's important, yes, but, not relevant. It's a distraction. Secondly, it serves little purpose other than to minimize the seriousness of what took place in The Way regarding sexual abuse. Sexual abuse in The Way was/is a very serious matter and should be treated as such, not rationalized or compared with something unrelated.
Have you ever been raped, John? Men do get raped, you know. By other men. But,my guess is that you have not. Because, if you had, I don't think you would be so quick to minimize the physical pain, loss of self confidence, sense of unworthiness and mental anguish that accompanies it. I don't think you would want anyone calling it "small stuff" in comparison to anything.
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geisha779
"I could use the same argument when sex abuse victims tell their stories. I could say that in India it's still possible for a husband to find his wife not pleasing and have her burned. That twi sex abuse is small stuff compared to that."
I am just confused as to what he means 'have her burned." it sounds like a husband just takes his wife to the local magistrate and turns her over....the husbands do it themselves.. . . it is prosecutable domestic violence in India. Delhi and now other areas have specific task forces dedicated to prosecuting this type of domestic violence.... just like we do. It was long a practice to torture the bride to exhort more dowry money from the brides family......but it is illegal. The Supreme Court of India as ruled a woman's dowry to be her own property and she has absolute rights of them. A husband has to return the dowry if they divorce or he can be prosecuted.
And just a point...it is POSSIBLE for any husband to do the same or any wife to do the same...anywhere. Wasn't 'The Burning Bed" based on a true story? So what....
What does domestic violence in India have to do with some cult leader in Ohio abusing women ? One doesn't make the other less brutal? It is just a different face of abuse. It all comes from evil.
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waysider
Distraction and diversion, geisha.
Those are two of the key materials John favors when building a soap box.
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Twinky
Johniam...what's with your brain? I was actually trying to be a bit nice to you. Rejoicing with you that the damage was minimal in comparison with what it could have been.
You are not (as far as I know) a sex abuse victim - so don't compare yourself with one.
Sex abuse is nothing to do with trees falling on one's property. What a rubbish comparison.
I am truly sorry for the people of Japan who have lost families, homes, cities...everything. It's all matchsticks. Thousands dead. Yet that doesn't seem to touch your heart at all. You have no empathy but want to discuss something completely irrelevant. Suttee. Huh????
Nobody here wants to burn you.
Though if you keep on with your inane comments, a line might form to do just that.
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