Our Father In The Word

[mstar1]

To add: Paul's description of himself in I Cor. 4 as father is fairly clear. (I think) Though the people he was writing to had many teachers or instructors, they have one person who had "fathered" them in Christ or had "begotten them through the gospel".

He also asks them to be "imitators" of him and that Timothy would soon be there to "remind" them of "his ways".

I can understand the concept of a mentor guiding and being a spiritual friend and helper to someone and that person perhaps being affectionately referred to as a 'father' of some sort.

Maybe that was Martindale's point in that, for good or for bad, he did have a close personal relationship with VPW.

But I never knew him at all, I may have shaken his hand once but he never even spoke to me or I to him...Even if he was without all his known offenses and shortcoming and was an upstanding minister on all fronts, there is still no way that he could be called my mentor or father because I never met him or knew him in the slightest.

Unless he was playing the role of absentee, unknowing, uncaring and abusive father then it would fit ...(like a hand in a glove )

[WordWolf]

I'm operating under the assumption that you mean to ask

"Is it Biblically correct to call someone your 'father in The Word'?"

and am answering accordingly.

================

Matthew 23:1-11. (KJV)

1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

5But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

6And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

7And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

11But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

==================

Matthew 23:1-11 (NASB)

1Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples,

2saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses;

3therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.

4"They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.

5"But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments.

6"They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues,

7and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men.

8"But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.

9"Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

10"Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.

==============

According to Jesus.

it is WRONG to give titles from one Christian to another.

Jesus specifies the following titles as wrong:

Master (leader)

father

rabbi (and thus, teacher)

So, "father" is wrong, and so it "Teacher", especially "THE Teacher",

because JESUS is THE Teacher, and anyone else robs him of his title.

Calling another "father" robs God of HIS proper title.

It also comes up in I Timothy and II Timothy.

================

1 Timothy 1:2

Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Timothy 1:18

This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;

2 Timothy 1:2

To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

================

I note it doesn't say Timothy called Paul "father", which may be all the distinction needs.

I'm also convinced that the verse you cited was completely misconstrued in twi.

It turned from Paul saying Timothy had many instructors, but Paul (PERSONALLY) fathered him in the good news-

into "the guy who teaches that class and we may meet in passing or not at all 'fathered' everyone who took

that class" instead of him being one of the 10,000 instructors.

Furthermore, I still haven't seen any verses say anything about Paul having any special privileges with

Timothy, let alone anyone else.

[chockfull]

Nice distinction WordWolf.

[socks]

You bring some good points there WW.

"Father" is a term that has meaning.

The relationship between a Paul and certain people he'd taught and come to know could be described by that word, the writer of Corinthians used it anyway - but really I then think "so what?".

I don't believe it's as significant as one might be led to think - especially when I look at the verses you have there WW.

Telling someone that they should do such and such because I'm their 'father" in the "Word" - that doesn't follow with the broader messages of the New Testament that speak about God, Jesus Christ, our relationships, and my relationships with others in my life.

There's no "father in the Word" role in the New Testament, is my point. . It's really not a pivotal point in anything other than describing how a relationship began or developed.

Saying "VPW is my father in the Word" - so what? Y'know? It doesn't have a great deal of significance to me, either way and not only because he's dead but for all the other reasons.

[excathedra]

this is for my father in the word

[excathedra]

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Udpefejz5C4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[waysider]

Nicely put, X.E.

[T-Bone]

looking back....it's almost disheartening to think of how many inroads TWI made into my head....it's a wonder i ever got up the courage to even begin questioning anything....i think this "father in the word" idea was a biggie for me in terms of encroachments they achieved.

my family had some really dysfunctional issues - and at the crux of it was my dad. a good honest man, very generous and fun loving, creative and technical - BUT - he suffered big-time from trauma as a medic in WW2 [received 2 purple hearts] and never received proper treatment from the VA.....he had a demeaning manner when trying to teach me how to do something - and was very impatient...i usually felt like the world's biggest idiot. often that was how he addressed me "...that's not how you do that, you idiot." so most of the time i walked around really pi$ $ed at my dad.

however, my love and acceptance for him has grown a lot later thru time as i experienced life and especially after i left TWI - knowing how some experiences can really screw with your head and load you up with some interesting mental baggage...

...anyway, sorry to digress here for a moment - but i just wanted to show how this conflicted and malfunctioning relationship set me up - making me susceptible to a charismatic father figure.i have vague memories of the first few times i saw vp at some event and wishing my father was like him [gawd - that's scary to say now! - but back then "who knew?"].

~~

hey, i don't know about all that psychological and behavioral science stuff - but what a father or father-figure means to me is:

the one with the authority

the one who will protect me

the one who will teach me

the one who helps define me

the one who i can identify with

the one who will help me develop

~~

~~

and you know when i got in - hearing folks referring to vp as "our father in the word" was just like the youngest sibling taking a cue from the others modeling how to relate to dad.... [GAG! - hmmmm no vomitous emoticon when you need one].

~~

sorry for this sappy post.....great thread though....it really touched a nerve with me....feeling a little embarrassed and ashamed right now for revealing this stuff - but getting that off my chest is a really good feeling.....is that like a mental date-rape or something? when you let someone get so inside your head like that - and then they screw you over big-time.....maybe that's why i can launch into such a tirade over anything to do with vp or TWI.

~~

ok, i'm done....cathartic session over for today....feeling better now.....carry on...have a nice day

[excathedra]

thanks waysider

and thank you t-bone. i so understand what you are saying

this father thing

can you imagine calling rivenbark our mother in the word

as ridiculous as calling vp father

[WordWolf]

Okay following the logic here, I have a question.

I got into the Bible and tongues and being Born Again by a woman named Evelyn who ran fellowships in Ardmore PA. So, is she my mother in the word?

Or being as VP was instructed by BG Leonard, would BG Leonard be our Grandfather in the word?

Or after Evelyn brought me to the Bible, I had instruction in the Jesus movement by Nicky Cruiz ~who spoke at different meetings~ but then, I took the PFAL class. So, is Nicky Cruiz my Father in the Word and VP merely my step father?

Really how does this all work?

I actually asked my Limb Leader this, in 1974ish, as I was curious and they said, the person you learned the most from is probably the "Father" in the Word. They thought MOST what if it is FIRST? If it is first, then I have a mother in the word....

Funny seeing this come up again, I never really got a definitive answer.

This reminds me of I am of Paul and I am of Peter etc. ?

Seems God is the Father and Jesus the son, and everyone else are brothers and sisters.

Dot Matrix

[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on March 12, 2003 at 13:30.]

[waysider]

Jackie Coogan was my Uncle Fester in the Absurd.

[Free Soul]

I haven't visited the cafe in a very long time, but with it's closing coming soon I feel compelled to state what has gelled in my brain over the last few yrs. First of all, I'm so thankful for this site & all the people who have shared so that the truth about the Way Travesty is known. Having said that, I chose this particular thread bec. I want to be very clear - not only was vpw no sort of "father in the word", but I do not believe he was born again at all. Some may say that we can't know what was in his heart, but for him to carry out the deception, the crimes against our sisters, the day-after-day con job with absolute malice & forethought demonstrates a person of body & soul only. These were not the actions of a born-again believer bearing fruit. In retrospect, his "speaking in tongues" was not genuine, either. People benefitted from hearing the Bible because it is God's Word, not because of that arrogant blowhard.

There's nothing like REAL Bible teaching to put it all in perspective, & I've gotten my mind & heart healed by listening to podcasts from the Village Church. The series on Ultimate Authority is amazing. Would that we had had a teacher who was humble, & truly loved God & His people!

If anyone disagrees w/my assessment of vpw, that's cool. I'm just speakin' my piece while I still can. It's been a good run, Greasespot :)

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

our father in the word, hollow and unholy is your name, your tyranny come, your will be done on earth as it is in hell.give us this day your daily sex, and never forgive us of our own sins but forgive yours done to us. lead us in temptations and deceive us into evil. for yours is the kingdom, and power/authority, and self glory now and forever. Amen.

hope no one was offended by my parody

[waysider]

hope no one was offended by my parody

Oh, you mean that was a parody?

[excathedra]

thank you free soul

love,e

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 3/7/2011 at 4:17 PM, skyrider said:

Even in my glazed-days.......I REFUSED to swallow this.

Never endorsed it.

Never taught it.

Never promoted it.

Sky, that makes two of us.  I thought God was my father; VPW was just some guy with a weird voice.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 3/7/2011 at 7:15 PM, waysider said:

I guess this would make brother Harry "our uncle in the upholstery business"......except that he wasn't our uncle and his best "cover up" skills didn't involve sofas and chairs.

Way, you are so right!!

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 3/8/2011 at 8:26 PM, OldSkool said:

How anyone can build an offshoot on this man's legacy is beyond me. I abhor Vic. He was a POS rapist, plagiarizing, scum bag. And that is being kind. May all of his sins rest squarely on his own shoulders.

OS, yes, yes, yes!!  Bingo!!!!

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 3/9/2011 at 0:13 PM, Thomas Loy Bumgarner said:

our father in the word, hollow and unholy is your name, your tyranny come, your will be done on earth as it is in hell.give us this day your daily sex, and never forgive us of our own sins but forgive yours done to us. lead us in temptations and deceive us into evil. for yours is the kingdom, and power/authority, and self glory now and forever. Amen.

Thomas, what a cleaver post!!  Thanks!!!

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 3/9/2011 at 7:50 PM, socks said:

To add: Paul's description of himself in I Cor. 4 as father is fairly clear. (I think) Though the people he was writing to had many teachers or instructors, they have one person who had "fathered" them in Christ or had "begotten them through the gospel".

He also asks them to be "imitators" of him and that Timothy would soon be there to "remind" them of "his ways".

There's a two fold relationship and responsibility being described.

"Paul" defends his lifestyle, habits and actions amongst those he's talking to here - in fact, he does that several times throughout these epistles.

He doesn't say "follow me", I "fathered" you - regardless of what I do and/or teach - he asks this of them because he wishes to fulfull

the responsibility of his relationship, one that he's held up on his end by the way he lived and conducted himself.

He's trustworthy and has proven it so he asks for trust.

He's taught them at great personal expense and effort and asks that they give him respect for that effort.

Y'know - I don't dance on VPW's grave and there was great value for me in the Way and learning as I did.

But - I don't care whose feelings it hurts - VPW simply didn't fill the role of "father" when he was playing around, screwing his marriage up,taking

advantage of younger women, and failing his responsibilities to his children by putting their entire lives at risk, and very importantly leaving all of it for others to deal with after his death.

I'm sure they don't like hearing about it Exkarate' - I wouldn't either.

But who's fault is it? If nothing else he could have settled his life's business before he died, he certainly knew it was coming.

He didn't - he let it go. So the way this has rolled out is ultimately because of both what he did and how he left it for others to deal with.

That's being a "bad" father in the Word" as far as I'm concerned. (and my wife and family feel the same way)

Socks, I feel the same way.  He was Garbage, IMO.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 3/12/2011 at 7:24 PM, excathedra said:

thanks waysider

and thank you t-bone. i so understand what you are saying

this father thing

can you imagine calling rivenbark our mother in the word

as ridiculous as calling vp father

Excie, good post!!

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 3/13/2011 at 10:22 PM, waysider said:

Jackie Coogan was my Uncle Fester in the Absurd.

Way, you are so clever!