"People generally feel bad because of bad behavior. Conscience has been defined as man's ability to evaluate his own actions. Dr. Wierwille defines conscience as habit patterns, or says that it is determined by habit patterns, that one develops during one's life. That conscience or that habit pattern reflex in your mind activates unpleasant emotional and other bodily warning devices; or signals bad feelings about yourself, when you are doing wrongly, when you miss the mark when you sin. When you fail, you feel it."
Didn't really work for "Dr.Wierwille" now did it. He just considered everything he did as "pure". Sorry, I am still reeling from that link Socrates posted of a letter written by one of VP's victims.
" One day I confronted him with what I found, and he responded, "Whatsoever things are pure... think on these things" (from Philippians). He strongly implied that I was thinking evil about it-- therefore in my mind it was evil, even though it was pure to him. He probably made the perfect sex offender, making it seem as though the victim was the one at fault."
From what I've looked at so far, there is plenty of "how". Most of it consists of pumping yourself full of scriptures, going WOW and signing people up for the class. I'll see if I can get back later with some excerpts.
If a person is depressed, I will bet you that person's house is absolute chaos. The beds will not be made. There will be clothes all over the floor. The vacuuming will not have been done in a month. The ironing will not have been done. There will be inch thick dust all over everything. Find a depressed person, go over to their house, and you will see it. Are they ever going to get out of that depression? Not until they start acting and get that house straight. You always start with the physical.
And does this instruction in counselling also go as far as saying, go and help that person with their "physicals"? Does it suggest, when you're round at their house inspecting for cleanliness, that you haul out the vac, wash the pots, help with the laundry, etc etc? Because if you could help them live in a physically cleaner tidier place, you just might find their depression might lift a little.
Heck, there were enough higher-ups who expected twiggies to go help clean their houses and yards. And they (the BCs etc) were perfectly capable of doing their own housework (except of course they didn't have the time because they were "moving the Word"). How about helping someone who for a while couldn't help themself?
Oh...no...that wouldn't work. That would stop the counsellor from "moving the Word" elsewhere. Gotta keep reaching out, hey.
Bad for you, you encountered two of the biggest pompous a$$ goof balls this side of the Atlantic.
You know, in the military, or in the corporate world, many times people of this caliber would be peeling potatoes for decades. Only in TWI is there an environment where it floats up to the top like that.
When my son and I were marked and avoided after being falsely accused of "being homos" and given one hour to pack and leave "their" Indiana campus and I called HQ asking to speak to lcm thinking he'd see through the lies and help us, Michael Fort spoke to me on the phone instead and told me that "The Way isn't a research, teaching and COUN-SEL-ING ministry" and that I should go find us a nice "worldly counselor" and the way he spoke the words 'counseling"' and 'counselor' - he spat them out as if the very words disgusted him. His entire tone was condescending.
Funny how quickly one's opinion of a person can change. I had previously thought he was a pretty cool guy.
Paul Mosqueda had "turned us over to Satan" earlier that day - they didn't even pretend to care what happened to us at that point.
Apparently they felt they'd gotten all the money they'd ever get out of me or I was useless to them since they didn't find me sexually interesting. (My conclusion of the matter - and I'm really glad of that!)
I think I remember at least one point in Corpse training where they had a book on the recommended reading list "Competant to Counsel". However, there was never any discussion around it or anything. They may have some "practical" sessions on it added in to the training more recently.
What does this mean? Virtually nothing. What is the training or education required to be even an elementary school counselor? Minimum 4 year degree that has jr/sr level course work in that field. Most of the time people in that position have masters degrees in either education, psychology, or the like.
After a lot of years in, we got to the point where we knew we did not have sufficient background to be handling the things we did. Situations like severe alchoholism, sexual abuse, domestic violence. We would at least try there to find out resources locally to refer people to - places that did have the proper background.
I mean you watch shows on TV like "Intervention". Those scenarios are put together by experts. They have people with education, credentials, experience handling them. And they have money to be able to set up a scenario to help people out beyond the people's means if they choose it.
Only in TWI do you have the combination of arrogance and incompetance that is deadly. That is what leads to all the "blame the victim" mentality.
some time before i went into the corps, the area coordinator conducted a christian counseling seminar - used some Jay Adams' material but also blended a bunch of TWI mindset in the mix.....if memory serves me well, i think some of Adams' concepts & techniques were used - BUT TWI standards rather than biblical reference points were the basis for determining the problem in a counseling situation.
For example, at the beginning of a counseling session it was recommended to check on if they were abundantly sharing, attending Twig fellowships regularly, etc. The answers to this line of inquiry were considered good indicators as to the cause of their problem.
Only in TWI do you have the combination of arrogance and incompetance that is deadly. That is what leads to all the "blame the victim" mentality.
If you step back and look at it, the whole system is predisposed to "blame the victim:"
You start with believing which actually means you caused your situation.
You go to to the pure all things are pure which actually means all those bad thoughts aren't helping
Ultimately you get to devil spirits which you apparently opened the trap door to let in.
Of course when it came to the leadership all bets were off. They could think as negatively as they wanted, never considered their believing, and if they had a devil spirit (according to their definition) like cancer or sexual addiction it was covered up.
For example, at the beginning of a counseling session it was recommended to check on if they were abundantly sharing, attending Twig fellowships regularly, etc. The answers to this line of inquiry were considered good indicators as to the cause of their problem.
And then there were folk like me who never missed a twig, faithfully gave my 10%--every payday for a year, and still didn't see any change.
What did they do in that case? Basically you got the run around. I had the twig leaders wife hand me the Christians should be Prosprus book and told me to read it. I told her I'd already read it.
My twig leader essentially told me he had nothing--no ideas, no revelation, the bagel.
That's when I stopped ABS.
Well, it that and another instance, even corps people couldn't answer.
Before I wrote a check for ABS and put it in the horn, I did a fast mental calculation and realized I wouldn't have enough money for food and ABS. Well, God's supposed to take care of us, right? It was Friday, and I was expecting another check, so I figured I'd get it Saturday. I wrote the check for ABS. Saturday, no food. So I didn't eat anything over the weekend. Monday, I went to where the check I was expecting was supposed to originate. They had sent it to an address I lived at 10 years prior.
I asked corps people about that one. The answer: You'll have to talk to my husband about that.
That's why I'm a hard sell, I've done the program. I know the results.
I can't believe I spent all that time changing light bulbs, staightening rows of chairs, placing silverware perfectly on a table, picking cigarette butts from the sidewalk, and directing people to where they should sit at a meeting. Still, after all that "training" I wasn't able to counsel someone on how to raise their children. Go figure. My holy spirit dove descended toward my W.O.W. pin, too, and I wore my name tag on the right. I just don't understand it.
The simple truth: Saint Vic wasn't interested in counseling people.
Oh, he wanted their money, but other than that I don't think he gave a puppy f@rt.
Look at PFAL, if Saint Vic was interested in delivering people, PFAL would have been a freebie--or at least went for the cost of the materials. The whole, you don't pay you don't get nothing out of it, was nothing more than a smokescreen.
The ministry wanted your 10% ABS, They wanted it so badly, the made it mandantory. Oh but you'll be so blessed, they'd say. See the previous post I made on this thread. And if you failed to manifest all the wonderous things you were supposed to get, they could always hide behind, "it was your believing."
Here's something that just struck me: if giving equals recieving why didn't he pay the corps people. Just think of all the blessings the ministry missed out on.
Here's something that just struck me: if giving equals recieving why didn't he pay the corps people. Just think of all the blessings the ministry missed out on.
Giving equals receiving is a misnomer.
Twi wrongly taught this thru the years. Heck, even Rev. L0nnel Johns0n handled this in a way magazine article in the late '70s to clarify twi's errors.
At times, wierwille and martindale stated this equality. Through the years, I heard those teachings...."as you give, you receive therefore giving equals receiving." Martindale taught this several times until, I believe, someone corrected him.
When a wheat farmer plants ONE seed.....he gets back 50-60 kernels of wheat. The head of that wheat stalk has 50-60 kernels of wheat (on a good year when conditions are right). If giving equals receiving.........then the farmer would get BACK one seed. Same truth for corn. Same truth for all the plant kingdom.
Luk 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
......measured back out and running over
Phl 4:15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only.
......giving AND receiving.....NOT giving = receiving
Yep I remember this one . I took a seminar that used it as the main text. I think it lasted a wholeweekend! hahahahaha! Anyhow, maybe this transcript was an addendum to the seminar. I guess that might explain why I don't remember it.
Twi wrongly taught this thru the years. Heck, even Rev. L0nnel Johns0n handled this in a way magazine article in the late '70s to clarify twi's errors.
At times, wierwille and martindale stated this equality. Through the years, I heard those teachings...."as you give, you receive therefore giving equals receiving." Martindale taught this several times until, I believe, someone corrected him.
When a wheat farmer plants ONE seed.....he gets back 50-60 kernels of wheat. The head of that wheat stalk has 50-60 kernels of wheat (on a good year when conditions are right). If giving equals receiving.........then the farmer would get BACK one seed. Same truth for corn. Same truth for all the plant kingdom.
I believe that's the point I'm trying to make.
From post #132 of the Forgiveness thread:
Remember, Saint Vic taught us the Word worked with a "mathamatical exactness and a scientific percision" (whatever that is).
His teachings are loaded with psudo-formulas and results:
1. Giving equals recieving
I doubt he ment G=R, but I thing its more If you G, then you R.
Of course, giving equals recieving means you get a return. Who invest something without expecting a return of some sort.
So, getting back to my point, in this context, if you believe you'll get 50-60 times the amount you gave why be stingy with resources? Why not pay corps people, then all that money will come back to you? Why not make the PFAL class free, think of all the deliverence you'll give and all the ABS you'll be returned?
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Watered Garden
TWI knew about as much about counseling as I know about nuclear physics. You say you have a troubled, rebellious, disobedient child who's been diagnosed with ADHD? There is no such thing as ADHD. BEAT
chockfull
And yes, the Way knows about as much about counseling as it does about running an accredited Christian college. See the following: nothing, nil, nix, nada, null, aught, cipher, cypher,
chockfull
To me you were dealing with lower level intelligence there. Well, sh1t, maybe that's what we all were dealing with. Let's compare here mothers. On one hand, we have that lady's example.
geisha779
Didn't really work for "Dr.Wierwille" now did it. He just considered everything he did as "pure". Sorry, I am still reeling from that link Socrates posted of a letter written by one of VP's victims.
" One day I confronted him with what I found, and he responded, "Whatsoever things are pure... think on these things" (from Philippians). He strongly implied that I was thinking evil about it-- therefore in my mind it was evil, even though it was pure to him. He probably made the perfect sex offender, making it seem as though the victim was the one at fault."
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Ham
what is interesting..
one could bring these accusations to somebody depressed.. and they might agree.
they KNOW the family isn't being fed. They KNOW the ever continuing presence of dust bunnies..
Nice one can point fingers.. the response might be "HOW am I supposed to be able to get OUT of what I find myself it.."
supposed to be a "how to" *ministry*..
lets see the how..
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waysider
From what I've looked at so far, there is plenty of "how". Most of it consists of pumping yourself full of scriptures, going WOW and signing people up for the class. I'll see if I can get back later with some excerpts.
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Twinky
And does this instruction in counselling also go as far as saying, go and help that person with their "physicals"? Does it suggest, when you're round at their house inspecting for cleanliness, that you haul out the vac, wash the pots, help with the laundry, etc etc? Because if you could help them live in a physically cleaner tidier place, you just might find their depression might lift a little.
Heck, there were enough higher-ups who expected twiggies to go help clean their houses and yards. And they (the BCs etc) were perfectly capable of doing their own housework (except of course they didn't have the time because they were "moving the Word"). How about helping someone who for a while couldn't help themself?
Oh...no...that wouldn't work. That would stop the counsellor from "moving the Word" elsewhere. Gotta keep reaching out, hey.
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chockfull
You know, in the military, or in the corporate world, many times people of this caliber would be peeling potatoes for decades. Only in TWI is there an environment where it floats up to the top like that.
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So_crates
As I said, the Way is one of the few businesses I know of where you can treat your clientele like crap and still make a bundle.
SoCrates
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bowtwi
When my son and I were marked and avoided after being falsely accused of "being homos" and given one hour to pack and leave "their" Indiana campus and I called HQ asking to speak to lcm thinking he'd see through the lies and help us, Michael Fort spoke to me on the phone instead and told me that "The Way isn't a research, teaching and COUN-SEL-ING ministry" and that I should go find us a nice "worldly counselor" and the way he spoke the words 'counseling"' and 'counselor' - he spat them out as if the very words disgusted him. His entire tone was condescending.
Funny how quickly one's opinion of a person can change. I had previously thought he was a pretty cool guy.
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So_crates
They refered you to a secular counselor? What happened to their stand about worldly wisdom, as Saint Vic put forth in PFAL?
SoCrates
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bowtwi
Paul Mosqueda had "turned us over to Satan" earlier that day - they didn't even pretend to care what happened to us at that point.
Apparently they felt they'd gotten all the money they'd ever get out of me or I was useless to them since they didn't find me sexually interesting. (My conclusion of the matter - and I'm really glad of that!)
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chockfull
I think I remember at least one point in Corpse training where they had a book on the recommended reading list "Competant to Counsel". However, there was never any discussion around it or anything. They may have some "practical" sessions on it added in to the training more recently.
What does this mean? Virtually nothing. What is the training or education required to be even an elementary school counselor? Minimum 4 year degree that has jr/sr level course work in that field. Most of the time people in that position have masters degrees in either education, psychology, or the like.
After a lot of years in, we got to the point where we knew we did not have sufficient background to be handling the things we did. Situations like severe alchoholism, sexual abuse, domestic violence. We would at least try there to find out resources locally to refer people to - places that did have the proper background.
I mean you watch shows on TV like "Intervention". Those scenarios are put together by experts. They have people with education, credentials, experience handling them. And they have money to be able to set up a scenario to help people out beyond the people's means if they choose it.
Only in TWI do you have the combination of arrogance and incompetance that is deadly. That is what leads to all the "blame the victim" mentality.
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T-Bone
some time before i went into the corps, the area coordinator conducted a christian counseling seminar - used some Jay Adams' material but also blended a bunch of TWI mindset in the mix.....if memory serves me well, i think some of Adams' concepts & techniques were used - BUT TWI standards rather than biblical reference points were the basis for determining the problem in a counseling situation.
For example, at the beginning of a counseling session it was recommended to check on if they were abundantly sharing, attending Twig fellowships regularly, etc. The answers to this line of inquiry were considered good indicators as to the cause of their problem.
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So_crates
If you step back and look at it, the whole system is predisposed to "blame the victim:"
You start with believing which actually means you caused your situation.
You go to to the pure all things are pure which actually means all those bad thoughts aren't helping
Ultimately you get to devil spirits which you apparently opened the trap door to let in.
Of course when it came to the leadership all bets were off. They could think as negatively as they wanted, never considered their believing, and if they had a devil spirit (according to their definition) like cancer or sexual addiction it was covered up.
SoCrates
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So_crates
And then there were folk like me who never missed a twig, faithfully gave my 10%--every payday for a year, and still didn't see any change.
What did they do in that case? Basically you got the run around. I had the twig leaders wife hand me the Christians should be Prosprus book and told me to read it. I told her I'd already read it.
My twig leader essentially told me he had nothing--no ideas, no revelation, the bagel.
That's when I stopped ABS.
Well, it that and another instance, even corps people couldn't answer.
Before I wrote a check for ABS and put it in the horn, I did a fast mental calculation and realized I wouldn't have enough money for food and ABS. Well, God's supposed to take care of us, right? It was Friday, and I was expecting another check, so I figured I'd get it Saturday. I wrote the check for ABS. Saturday, no food. So I didn't eat anything over the weekend. Monday, I went to where the check I was expecting was supposed to originate. They had sent it to an address I lived at 10 years prior.
I asked corps people about that one. The answer: You'll have to talk to my husband about that.
That's why I'm a hard sell, I've done the program. I know the results.
SoCrates
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Broken Arrow
I can't believe I spent all that time changing light bulbs, staightening rows of chairs, placing silverware perfectly on a table, picking cigarette butts from the sidewalk, and directing people to where they should sit at a meeting. Still, after all that "training" I wasn't able to counsel someone on how to raise their children. Go figure. My holy spirit dove descended toward my W.O.W. pin, too, and I wore my name tag on the right. I just don't understand it.
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So_crates
The simple truth: Saint Vic wasn't interested in counseling people.
Oh, he wanted their money, but other than that I don't think he gave a puppy f@rt.
Look at PFAL, if Saint Vic was interested in delivering people, PFAL would have been a freebie--or at least went for the cost of the materials. The whole, you don't pay you don't get nothing out of it, was nothing more than a smokescreen.
The ministry wanted your 10% ABS, They wanted it so badly, the made it mandantory. Oh but you'll be so blessed, they'd say. See the previous post I made on this thread. And if you failed to manifest all the wonderous things you were supposed to get, they could always hide behind, "it was your believing."
Here's something that just struck me: if giving equals recieving why didn't he pay the corps people. Just think of all the blessings the ministry missed out on.
SoCrates
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outandabout
Good point. If giving = receiving, why didn't HQ ever help anybody???
All they did was take, take, take.
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Ham
because of the very nature of things..
they were FORCED to return some kind of "blessing".
I can only think of two times that has happened..
I just wish they did something with the few millions they have left, for good, at least before the lawyers divide it..
and to those building dwellings about the mother t(w)it..
I would suggest.
don't expect for participation in a bankrupt organization to look good on a resume..
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skyrider
Giving equals receiving is a misnomer.
Twi wrongly taught this thru the years. Heck, even Rev. L0nnel Johns0n handled this in a way magazine article in the late '70s to clarify twi's errors.
At times, wierwille and martindale stated this equality. Through the years, I heard those teachings...."as you give, you receive therefore giving equals receiving." Martindale taught this several times until, I believe, someone corrected him.
When a wheat farmer plants ONE seed.....he gets back 50-60 kernels of wheat. The head of that wheat stalk has 50-60 kernels of wheat (on a good year when conditions are right). If giving equals receiving.........then the farmer would get BACK one seed. Same truth for corn. Same truth for all the plant kingdom.
Luk 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
......measured back out and running over
Phl 4:15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only.
......giving AND receiving.....NOT giving = receiving
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bowtwi
They claimed 'believing equals receiving' not 'giving equals receiving.'
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waysider
Competent To Counsel
Yep I remember this one . I took a seminar that used it as the main text. I think it lasted a whole weekend! hahahahaha! Anyhow, maybe this transcript was an addendum to the seminar. I guess that might explain why I don't remember it.
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excathedra
oh i can't even read this crap -- so sorry if you all have covered this
show me the top of your refrigerator and i'll tell how clean your vagina is
i'm sorry where the he11 is that thread ?
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So_crates
I believe that's the point I'm trying to make.
From post #132 of the Forgiveness thread:
Of course, giving equals recieving means you get a return. Who invest something without expecting a return of some sort.
So, getting back to my point, in this context, if you believe you'll get 50-60 times the amount you gave why be stingy with resources? Why not pay corps people, then all that money will come back to you? Why not make the PFAL class free, think of all the deliverence you'll give and all the ABS you'll be returned?
SoCrates
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excathedra
i can't tell if we're talking about way teachings or life here
but in life we give freely don't we? i mean, we just want to be that way and help people
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So_crates
I'm attempting to make a point about the hypocracy of the ministry. They teach one thing, yet their actions betray their true nature.
SoCrates
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