"Counselling"?

[T-Bone]

This talk about counseling brings to mind a shift in my position on it….uhm….well, actually my beliefs have been in a state of flux ever since i left TWI….I find myself often questioning many of the paradigms I still hold onto – even years after my escape. It's been probably within the last year - after digesting some Grease Spot threads touching on fundamentalism….and especially mulling over Karen Armstrong's book "The Battle for God"….that once again I feel a state of uncertainty....and i'm ok with that.

….funny how one's beliefs can evolve when not under the control of an intellectual tyrant. I think I now have more of a liberal theology than a conservative theology – or is that fundamentalism? Not sure – and could not articulate the nuance of differences - if any - between conservative theology and fundamentalism – so, let's just say I've made my own religion – a hodge podge from my best picks of everything I've come across thus far….and since this is not a doctrinal forum I just wanted to note something here that may be pertinent….so here goes….

With Jay Adams' name/work mentioned by myself and others – I stumbled across something very interesting this morning while reading up on another topic/thread about forgiveness. It is getting me to re-think my opinion of Adams. In "Dictionary of Pastoral Care and Counseling", Rodney Hunter general editor - - just a few pages over from "forgiveness" I came across a topic "Fundamentalist Pastoral Care", on pages 448-450:

"Fundamentalism is characterized by an inerrant biblical hermeneutic, a separatist attitude, and loyalty to an authority-centered group; thus, fundamentalist pastoral care is primarily distinguished by its pervasive literalistic and legalistic use of the Bible as an authoritative pastoral resource for interpreting, diagnosing, and responding to human problems and crises. Typically, the fundamentalist pastor or lay caregiver represents the Bible with considerable pastoral authority, and often adopts a confrontational stance in relation to parishioner or counselee, a stance believed to be an expression of care in the best interest of the person or persons involved…

…According to Sandeen (1967) the roots of fundamentalism extend into the unofficial alliance between two newly formed nineteenth century theologies – dispensationalism and the Princeton theology – at the Niagara and Northfield Conferences…

…Among fundamentalist pastoral writers today Jay Adams is the most widely known and influential, and may be taken as a fair representative of contemporary fundamentalist pastoral care and counseling.

Adams emerged after a long period during which the social sciences had decisively influenced mainline pastoral care. He expressed several criticisms of this development: that pastoral care was losing its identity in relationship to the church, ministry, the Bible, and theology; that private practice counseling had little accountability to the church; and that the social sciences had more authority than the Bible as a guide for pastoral care…

…Adams strictly adheres to the doctrine of separation. First, Adams asserts that the best training for pastoral counseling is not found in a school of psychology or of medicine but in seminary that provides a proper biblical and theological foundation…

…Adams' approach tends to reduce Scripture to legalistic prescriptions for solving the problems of life…It offers a static and deceptively simple view of reality in which truth and right can be known and obeyed unambiguously…In addition to attacking the social sciences, Adams often misrepresents them due to a simplistic misunderstanding of their theories…"

End of excerpts

~~

The closest thing I can come to in describing the feeling I got from reading that this morning – is how I felt when I first came to Grease Spot and started realizing there's a lot more stuff I need to reevaluate!

Getting back to my religion of choice [First Church of T-Bone's Hodge Podge, T-Bone is founder and only member], it is a work in progress developing along the lines of childhood beliefs [specifically elements of Roman Catholicism, like the unfathomable mysterious nature of God and a morally just universe – NOT Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy or Superman], in concert with what seems to work for me.

I've always liked Adams' stuff – still do – but now realize that like the many other sources that have had some influence on my hodge podge mindset – I have been picking and choosing what works for me. In dealing with depression – it was a long….long…..very long road to the shrink's office after checking out many ineffective detours along the way. I agree with Adams that sin can cause problems and complicate issues – but MY problem was not being addressed by being squeezed through the mold of biblical models nor was it responding to an act of sheer willpower. Since Adams' does not consider mental health professionals a viable alternative – I exercised my new "religious" freedom by going to a shrink….Have been much better off ever since.

[Twinky]

Oh, T-Bone, I do enjoy your posts!

Those excepts you posted are rather chilling.

There's a balance somewhere. Not fundy refer it all back to the Bible stuff; and not touchy-feely secular stuff either.

Both can end up as "head knowledge" without the wisdom of proper application.

[T-Bone]

yeah - i hear ya Twinky.... and maybe to reiterate some points of my post:

first off, i didn't want to come off as an alarmist or that i did a 180 on what i thought about Adams' stuff - i did say in my post that i still like some of his stuff....when it comes to the dynamics of relationships & roles in the church - i think he's got a lot right; he also has some great stuff on the human condition, dealing with sin, and developing a more accurate view of yourself. i have maybe 13 of his books and i ain't gonna get rid of them....i just think Adams oversteps his area of expertise when he criticizes the social sciences.....guess i'm trying to say that article i quoted just reminded me i always need to keep my critical thinking cap on - even when reading my favorite authors.

....but understand the way my mind works - if i spot something that i think works well or does a great job organizing or explaining things - i hold onto it. even if i see issues or faults elsewhere in the body of work....maybe a little like what i spotted in PFAL - which was Bullinger - i've got 5 or 6 of Bullinger's books. don't agree with everything he says either...i pick and choose.

~~

back to the topic.....

TWI did NOT have a clue about the dynamics of relationships and roles in the church,

ignored the human condition,

minimized sin and the consequences of sin,

for the most part ignored feelings, emotions - even logic,

prescribed pat answers [renew your mind, abundantly share more, go WOW, etc.],

instead of getting to the root of a problem they'd see a devil spirit behind every tree,

were taskmasters who dumped legalistic standards on folks as a way to redeem yourself or address an issue,

played at being counselor guided by revelation,

recommended hookie pookism to fix problems [sIT, believing images of victory, positive confessions, etc.].....

and some leaders were just flat out mean-spirited old Pharisees hell bent on proving they were in charge - - - so they had NO business counseling anyone.

Edited March 8, 2011 by T-Bone

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 3/3/2011 at 9:40 AM, Broken Arrow said:

You're absolutely right, the assumption was that if you knew "The Word", then you were competent to counsel. There was no teaching or training on counseling, are you kidding me? So, as a Corps person, if you are told you're competent to counsel and someone comes along with a problem you have no answer for, there are only 2 alternatives. One is to admit you are simply at a loss and can't help them. That is completely unacceptable to both you and the counselee. I mean, what's the use of wearing that green name tag if you don't have all the answers? The other alternative is to assume there is something wrong with the counselee. That's the easiest strike because the counselee has already admitted they're having a problem. You've saved face, and the counselee doesn't suspect your incompetence.

Then there was my approach which was to quote Bible verses at people and tell them to renew their minds. That must have been an incredible comfort. Interestingly, no one ever came to me for counseling more than once. I always thought it was because they were healed.

BA, I rarely went to anyone in the TWI for counseling. The few times I did, I got a lot of flak, so I learned not to do it.  

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 3/3/2011 at 11:41 AM, Twinky said:

To be able to counsel someone requires both detachment and empathy.

Empathy, to try to understand where the counsellee is coming from.

Detachment, to be able to see the overall situation and to guide the counsellee out or through.

From a careers advice website:

At every level in this very basic list, TWI failed at "corporate" level. There were some people who were "good listeners" and those with difficulties genuinely warmed to them and sought their advice.

But generally, "counselling" sessions were a sort of excuse for asking intrusive and irrelevant personal questions. And for spying on individuals - maybe the counsellee, maybe people associated with the counsellee.

To think that LCM had fancied himself as a psychologist. Isn't that, supposedly, the degree he took? (That's what he told my Corps, anyway - before dissing all psychologists as charlatans.)

Twinky, I think LCM was a charlatan, and he knew it.

[Watered Garden]

TWI knew about as much about counseling as I know about nuclear physics. You say you have a troubled, rebellious, disobedient child who's been diagnosed with ADHD? There is no such thing as ADHD. BEAT THE HELL OUT OF YOUR DEVIL SPIRIT POSSESSED CHILD AND HE WILL LISTEN-REMEMBER-OBEY!

You've been diagnosed with a serious disorder and you're scared? Well, where's your believing?

It was either your lack of believing or devil spirit influence/possession that screwed you up.

I watched someone who I considered to be the most exceedingly great and mighty woman of God who had ever lived beat the crap out of her little daughter, aged about 3, because she spit out the steamed spinach this woman was feeding her. Then she beat her some more to get her to say "Thank you, Mommy, for providing me this healthful and nutritious meal." That was when I realized this cruel, sadistic, legalistic zeeatch knew nothing about raising children. I wish I'd taken that damned spoon away from her and shoved it down her throat.

[JayDee]

6 minutes ago, Watered Garden said:

TWI knew about as much about counseling as I know about nuclear physics. You say you have a troubled, rebellious, disobedient child who's been diagnosed with ADHD? There is no such thing as ADHD. BEAT THE HELL OUT OF YOUR DEVIL SPIRIT POSSESSED CHILD AND HE WILL LISTEN-REMEMBER-OBEY!

You've been diagnosed with a serious disorder and you're scared? Well, where's your believing?

It was either your lack of believing or devil spirit influence/possession that screwed you up.

I watched someone who I considered to be the most exceedingly great and mighty woman of God who had ever lived beat the crap out of her little daughter, aged about 3, because she spit out the steamed spinach this woman was feeding her. Then she beat her some more to get her to say "Thank you, Mommy, for providing me this healthful and nutritious meal." That was when I realized this cruel, sadistic, legalistic zeeatch knew nothing about raising children. I wish I'd taken that damned spoon away from her and shoved it down her throat.

Horrible. Absolutely horrible. 

[chockfull]

21 hours ago, Watered Garden said:

TWI knew about as much about counseling as I know about nuclear physics. You say you have a troubled, rebellious, disobedient child who's been diagnosed with ADHD? There is no such thing as ADHD. BEAT THE HELL OUT OF YOUR DEVIL SPIRIT POSSESSED CHILD AND HE WILL LISTEN-REMEMBER-OBEY!

You've been diagnosed with a serious disorder and you're scared? Well, where's your believing?

It was either your lack of believing or devil spirit influence/possession that screwed you up.

I watched someone who I considered to be the most exceedingly great and mighty woman of God who had ever lived beat the crap out of her little daughter, aged about 3, because she spit out the steamed spinach this woman was feeding her. Then she beat her some more to get her to say "Thank you, Mommy, for providing me this healthful and nutritious meal." That was when I realized this cruel, sadistic, legalistic zeeatch knew nothing about raising children. I wish I'd taken that damned spoon away from her and shoved it down her throat.

To me you were dealing with lower level intelligence there.

Well, sh1t, maybe that's what we all were dealing with.   

Let's compare here mothers.  On one hand, we have that lady's example.  I'm sure that little girl at 18 will get as far away from that woman as possible, and have a lot of damage to deal with.  Do you think they will have a multi-generational connection?  On the other hand we have you who showed Christian love to a troubled adopted child and saw him through a stage where he was weak.  Now that he is stronger you have love and a multi-generational connection.

Who was the better mother?

Who does God approve of?

Who has rewards now and eternally?

Not even a tough choice answering those.

Edited August 9, 2017 by chockfull

[Watered Garden]

You bring tears to my eyes. I'm certainly not perfect, and our son still struggles, but by God's wonderful grace we are all making it.

I worry and pray for her now grown-up children; three boys one girl. I hope they are doing well. I think one is a pretty well recognized artist.

[chockfull]

And yes, the Way knows about as much about counseling as it does about running an accredited Christian college.

See the following:

1. nothing, nil, nix, nada, null, aught, cipher, cypher, goose egg, naught, zero, zilch, zip, zippo(adverb)

   a quantity of no importance

   Synonyms:
   postal code, nought, zipper, zero, vigour, zip, energy, goose egg, postcode, naught, aught, cipher, nix, zippo, nil, zero point, nobody, secret code, slide fastener, nonentity, vigor, zip fastener, cryptograph, cypher, zilch, nothing, nada, null

2. nothing(adverb)

   in no respect; to no degree

.

[chockfull]

8 minutes ago, Watered Garden said:

You bring tears to my eyes. I'm certainly not perfect, and our son still struggles, but by God's wonderful grace we are all making it.

I worry and pray for her now grown-up children; three boys one girl. I hope they are doing well. I think one is a pretty well recognized artist.

Me too.  They sound like River Road Fellowship refugees but maybe not that bad.  We all have dysfunctions to get over from the Way me too.