Dishing it out

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 3/9/2011 at 6:54 PM, geisha779 said:

Johniam is not the only person who reads here...and I would like to think...and have occasionally been told...well, more than once recently....that these types of discussions can be very helpful to others.

They are to me!  

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 3/8/2011 at 6:18 AM, waysider said:

(slightly)

"In '73 and '74 even before there were official branches and limbs, the area leader kept the abs for a month and then turned it in to the limb leader. Said limb leader then kept it also for a month before turning it in to hq. If either the area or limb leader needed something that month, the cost came out of the abs. My area leader needed some tires because he traveled a lot to care for his people so that was taken frrom the abs. Somewhere in '74-5 hq called all abs directly in to hq because they said some were abusing the privilege."

...........................................................................

When I took the class in 1972, the Way Tree structure was already solidly in place. (branches and limbs). We were instructed to never use the ABS for local needs. We weren't even allowed to use money from the ABS to buy the stamps to send it to HQ. Maybe other people's experiences had to do with geography. I don't really know. That's my personal experience of that period of time.

edit:

And we were forbidden from doing things like bake sales and car washes to provide for local needs, such as hall rentals. I think this was supposed to be based on the George Mueller idea that God would be the sole source to supply your needs. Or, perhaps, that's the image Wierwille wanted to convey to the public.

What that did, in reality, was to create an atmosphere of codependency. (Some people are givers and some people are takers) I never really saw that aspect of it very clearly until I went into fellowlaborers of Ohio. In that program, with 50 people living in close quarters, it was quite apparent. I think one's memories (ie: fuzzy feelings) of the FLO program may be related to where one stood in the codependency queue.

Way, I was a WOW in Joliet, I'll., from 1978-1979.  I know on the WOW field, it was every person for himself/herself.  If you didn't have enough money to buy food, you starved. Never once did I ever I know TWI to help any WOW at anytime.  And then we were supposed to move into a "WOW Vet Home??!!"  No thanks, not in this lifetime.  

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 3/7/2011 at 10:29 PM, dabobbada said:

I attended some of the CFFM fellowships, both local and in Tipp City, in the early 2000's before my health went too seriously bad.

Something to remember was John Shroyer was born and raised in twi. In those earlier days it was more innocent and loving in God. Fellowships and the people were sweet on each other and it seemed little miracles happened all the time. the smiles on peoples faces were very real.

I got in '73 and listened to tapes from '71 & '72 wherein veepee would open a research sunday night on a biblical subject with walter cummins and a dozen books around him. He encouraged people to work it and write what they found back in to hq. I remember a number of times in those early days he gave credit to those men he learned from. Their memories faded only after the ministry grew larger than he knew to handle.

(I guess too many pretty young ladies addled his brain.)

What I am saying is the early ministry was wonderful in many ways, that is what captured our hearts and minds. then it shifted from love and grace subtly into the law and central domination.

Though I didn't know John Shroyer very well, he knew me and usually knew what I was up to. He was a kind man ready to help anyone he could. When I heard about CFFM I was wary of course, having suffered a typical '90s twi send off. So I asked some questions.

John and his small crew determined if they were to start another ministry, it was to be based on the old days when it was grounded in love and grace.

Second, financially, it was to run or fail based on the principals of George Mueller. Georges' rule one was he never asked anyone for one red cent, but rather to rely on prayer and God get him what he needed when he needed it. For those not familiar with George Mueller, he ran several orphanages in England in the 1800's. Many times breakfast arrived as the orphans sat down to eat. George was a master servant of a miraclous God.

John wanted to be like George was. Things happened rapidly getting land and a small church built. By the time they got it built, it was already too small. It seated maybe 60 -70 and another 80 -100 in the basement, but we made do. They never asked for donations for anything while I listened to them by tape for 3 -4 years. The tapes were free to anyone who asked.

At a sunday meeting they would pass the hat. But the teaching was they taught the tithe because scripture did and that said scripture said it needed to be from a cheerful giver.

If you can't give it cheerfully, it better to not give.

Remember, all the early folk had just been burned by the previous ministry and insisted certain questions be answered about CFFM doctrine compared to recent twi insanities.

(I'm getting too tired, I need to rest, but I'll give one example:)

(Remember, Waydale and Greasespot were both well known by most CFFM'ers.)

The biggest issue had to do with the sexual abuse in twi. When talking to John or other leaders, they said it was wrong and they were against it. One Sunday they they made it official by announcing it as official CFF policy at the podium. They said scripturally, sex is reserved only to married people, and that was CFFM's stance on it.

I was there that day and quite pleased. After that my health failed. Thru their free newsletteres and tapes, I kept up for a while but lost touch after having to move back home. I know they have grown quite a bit and added some classes. You pay for the classes but if I remember right, the tapes are yours to keep.

My memories of CFF are good, about loving people trying to return to the ministry of grace and love and sweet little miracles, and when you and God were good friends.

But VPW was married; oh, you meant to each other.  Nuts!

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 3/9/2011 at 7:44 PM, excathedra said:

i'm not sure i care one way or the other anymore

mostly i just talk if something hits me a certain way

my witnessing and undershepherding days are long gone

--

--

oh and i think offshoots are horsesheet

and i don't care too much about doctrinal bible debates -- common sense seems to be what i like

I didn't see a lot of Common Sense in TWI Excie!

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 3/11/2011 at 11:41 AM, chockfull said:

The funniest thing about all that was how RR early on highlighted the problem with LCM "having too much power" - the main teacher AND the main administrator functions together. Then through stifling micromanagement she garners up ALL of the power and basically takes the power away from any of the teaching side by requiring them to submit teachings ahead of time for approval, go through a dress rehearsal before her and other BOD members where she can change "approve/disapprove" of content, etc.

I guess that's what you get when you cross a little old lady schoolteacher with Godzilla - Rozilla

Rozilla??!!

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

On 8/5/2017 at 5:23 PM, Grace Valerie Claire said:

Way, I never understood VPW/TWI's aversion to bake sales, and car washes.  I used to attend a Methodist Church in Bethesda, and once a year, the kids would hold a Car Wash.  I always got the car washed during it; they did a great job, and I got the car washed at a good price.  I can't remember what they did with the money; perhaps sent kids to Summer Bible Camp??

Wierwille believed that having bake sales, car washes, and paying for potluck suppers made Christians pay taxes/indulgences to pay for hymnals, musical instruments, youth events and he chided them for not disclosing their salaries and a 20% of their income to pay for salaries, building/property upkeep based on their believing similar to Muller.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

4 minutes ago, Thomas Loy Bumgarner said:

Wierwille believed that having bake sales, car washes, and paying for potluck suppers made Christians pay taxes/indulgences to pay for hymnals, musical instruments, youth events and he chided them for not disclosing their salaries and a 20% of their income to pay for salaries, building/property upkeep based on their believing similar to Muller.

Nuts!

[outandabout]

They did encourage car washes etc to pay for the Auditorium though.  We were encouraged to pay towards that over and above ABS.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

16 minutes ago, outandabout said:

They did encourage car washes etc to pay for the Auditorium though.  We were encouraged to pay towards that over and above ABS.

Outi, you are right!  I had forgotten that!

[hiway29]

I still feel ill when I recall how they soaked people to build that auditorium.I was in CT where we had an area meeting with Joyful Noise  traveling through, pushing for the building fund. A couple of impassioned songs by Claudette had a woman who I was 'working with, just starting  the class, not a penny to her name, emptied out her wallet that night for the place. I so wanted to tell her not to do it, and still feel guilty that I didn't. 

[outandabout]

And now there it is.  Hardly anybody in it for SNS.

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

17 hours ago, outandabout said:

And now there it is.  Hardly anybody in it for SNS.

How about SNL with the post-prime players?

[outandabout]

That would bring on more people.