quote: my witnessing and undershepherding days are long gone
Don't you witness and undershepherd your own kid? You may not teach him the word, but you teach him anything you think will help him, right? That's all witnessing and undershepherding is.
quote: common sense seems to be what i like
Everybody's common sense is based on SOME belief system.
quote: Do you really think the inhabitants of GS are a mass shelter for devil spirits, and it is your mission to "clear them out"?
LOL. If I was going to suspect anyone of having devil spirits, it wouldn't be because of what you believe about VP et al, it would be because of the crippled logic used in responding to what I say. You still constantly misrepresent me.
Don't you witness and undershepherd your own kid? You may not teach him the word, but you teach him anything you think will help him, right? That's all witnessing and undershepherding is.
Everything in life is one big Way reference for you isn't it? No, I don't think raising a child is anything like witnessing and undershepherding. According to the W&U syllabus, the stated purpose of witnessing and undershepherding is to sign people up for the PFAL class. Do you see any discrepancy here?
edit: Sorry for the derail Twinky.
Now we can get back to CFFM (or wander over to the soapbox thread.)
no, I am actually trying to understand you. Maybe that is an impossibility. I've given you several chances to explain yourself.
What was the safe harbor, or safe haven you seem to have enjoyed under vic's tutelage? Thirty pages on another thread, and you finally admit it was NOT physical safety or security. For any run of the mill way follower. That's a good start. We've moved one block of "what it is not" aside.
What exactly WAS it?
Maybe we should address the same question to CFF..
I think the worst answer I'd get is "I don't know. I'll have to look it over a little more closely.."
quote: my witnessing and undershepherding days are long gone
Don't you witness and undershepherd your own kid? You may not teach him the word, but you teach him anything you think will help him, right? That's all witnessing and undershepherding is.
quote: common sense seems to be what i like
Everybody's common sense is based on SOME belief system.
quote: Do you really think the inhabitants of GS are a mass shelter for devil spirits, and it is your mission to "clear them out"?
LOL. If I was going to suspect anyone of having devil spirits, it wouldn't be because of what you believe about VP et al, it would be because of the crippled logic used in responding to what I say. You still constantly misrepresent me.
Hey johniam. No offense or anything, but could we move this whole discussion about you being misrepresented and needing to defend yourself over to the "My Personal Soapbox" thread? This thread here I think people were trying to keep somewhat focused on discussing CFFM. However, as of the last few pages, the topic has turned away from that and more to focus on you. And you keep posting here which prolongs that. Not that I'm against talking with you, I would just rather not completely dilute the content of this thread to do so. Can you please answer over on that other thread? Thanks for understanding. I'll actually copy your response over and answer there.
This thread here I think people were trying to keep somewhat focused on discussing CFFM. However, as of the last few pages, the topic has turned away from that and more to focus on you. And you keep posting here which prolongs that.
I am beginning to think dude is just trolling at this point.
Okay, I opened a new thread specially for Johniam to have his say. Other people have gone there so that they can continue to converse with John.
Who hasn't shown up there yet? John!!!! Because, it seems, he would rather distract everybody else.
I asked a question because I wanted an answer.
The answer seems to be, that CFFM in fact DOES dish out money. I don't know the level of that, but they sent me their tapes for a long time till I asked them not to because I can listen over the net. They've never asked me for anything towards the tape cost. And I haven't seen anybody saying that they are greedy b***s who demand "ABS" as a right.
Could I respectfully suggest that if John posts again on this thread - the rest of us ignore him, copy any response onto the Soapbox thread, and respond to him there? He can do what he likes there. Go off on any tangent he likes.
quote: Okay, I opened a new thread specially for Johniam to have his say. Other people have gone there so that they can continue to converse with John.
Could I respectfully suggest that if John posts again on this thread - the rest of us ignore him, copy any response onto the Soapbox thread, and respond to him there? He can do what he likes there. Go off on any tangent he likes.
Your argument is totally bogus! The first person to start derailing this thread was actually Excathedra; something about don't tell your story because it hurts the kids and grandkids. Then you didn't mind Oldskool, Mstar, Brokenarrow, Chockfull, Socrates, and Skyrider; all these posters, directly comparing CFFM with TWI. This is all on the first page; MY first post was the first post on page 2. I related my experience with CFFM, quite legitimate, on topic. In doing so, I addressed stuff posted by Chockfull, Socrates, and Skyrider. Don't I have the right to dispute what others post? You all certainly dispute me!
Then Pawtucket himself made the next post, seemingly concurring with some stuff I posted. That's why you passionately appeal to folks to ignore me. Pawtucket, apparently, won't cooperate with you. Then on post #31 you dispute what I posted. Then I commit the unforgiveable; I IGNORE you. Then, in post #37 you accuse ME of derailing this thread.
It's been 3 months now since I started posting again. I'm not trying to "convert" anyone to any organization or ideology; I'm just giving my opinion, which still embraces much TWI teaching, I admit, but the revised rules say, regarding opinions and povs, "we welcome them ALL". In those same 3 months there have now been several threads which would have had less than 100 posts and stopped except for overreactions to me. It is, I guess, so threatening to have even ONE poster here who sticks to his guns and still supports ANY twi doctrine that, as I said before, the damage control just keeps pouring in.
You really DO misrepresent me. If I dispute even ONE thing unofficially recognized as GSC "doctrine", you act like I'm the devil. You assign to me all manner of evil thinking that I NEVER posted or thought. Is it ME that's rattling your cages, or are you doing that yourselves?
One more thing. When TWI got going, at least during the 60s, they surely fancied themselves as the other side of the denominational story. People could come to twig, calmly discuss their dissatisfaction with their churches, and receive meaningful input. But by the time someone has been to their hundredth fellowship, sat through their hundredth believer's meeting, and taken foundational pfal for the tenth time, then the other side of the story becomes the ONLY side of the story. That's not something VP could totally control; when that many people get involved, the group takes on a shape and life of its own. That's true of any business as well.
To many of you, the other side of the twi story is now the ONLY side of the story. That's not Pawtucket's doing, it's YOURS! Paul Allen didn't post that much on Waydale either, he picked his spots. I can't stop you from ignoring me or even forcing me off here, I guess, but what does it say about YOU that you say "Aughhhh! I'm melting!" just because ONE poster can't be persuaded to concur with you?
I'm just giving my opinion, which still embraces much TWI teaching
My friend, I still embrace "TWI teaching" because some of it is biblical, and I still endeavor to embrace the bible, God, and Jesus. Not everything the the way international taught is BS, but there is a significant portion of it that is worse than BS. At this point I am not sure I will ever totally agree with anyone about biblical matters, and that is just fine.
One more thing. When TWI got going, at least during the 60s, they surely fancied themselves as the other side of the denominational story. People could come to twig, calmly discuss their dissatisfaction with their churches, and receive meaningful input. But by the time someone has been to their hundredth fellowship, sat through their hundredth believer's meeting, and taken foundational pfal for the tenth time, then the other side of the story becomes the ONLY side of the story. That's not something VP could totally control; when that many people get involved, the group takes on a shape and life of its own. That's true of any business as well.
I wasn't around for the early days of the way international. I can say this from first hand experience as way corps who has intimate knowledge of the inner workings of TWI - The way international is the way it is by design. It is strictly micromanaged from the top down using the way of the USA through the way tree structure. The things that VPW, and Craig taught that have not been specifically re-taught (i.e. adultery is wrong, etc.) are still believed and held as truth. So, the way international does not have life of it's own, it is molded in Rosalie Rivenbark's and Donna Martindale's image. They all learned that neat little trick from Victor Paul Wierwille.
To many of you, the other side of the twi story is now the ONLY side of the story. That's not Pawtucket's doing, it's YOURS! Paul Allen didn't post that much on Waydale either, he picked his spots. I can't stop you from ignoring me or even forcing me off here, I guess, but what does it say about YOU that you say "Aughhhh! I'm melting!" just because ONE poster can't be persuaded to concur with you?
Personally, I don't really care if you ever agree with me. At this point I am not even sure what all of this is about. I do wish, however, that you would please take up the cause elsewhere, perhaps on the thread Twinky made. I came back to this thread to read about CFFM, who has my interest in a good way. But what do I find? another lengthy defense from you. Now, let's pretend for a second you are here to defend CFFM with all your zeal....it would really discourage me from having anything to do with them. Presuming this is the case, I am assuming this is not what you would want.
So, the way international does not have life of it's own, it is molded in Rosalie Rivenbark's and Donna Martindale's image. They all learned that neat little trick from Victor Paul Wierwille.
The funniest thing about all that was how RR early on highlighted the problem with LCM "having too much power" - the main teacher AND the main administrator functions together. Then through stifling micromanagement she garners up ALL of the power and basically takes the power away from any of the teaching side by requiring them to submit teachings ahead of time for approval, go through a dress rehearsal before her and other BOD members where she can change "approve/disapprove" of content, etc.
I guess that's what you get when you cross a little old lady schoolteacher with Godzilla - Rozilla
quote: I do wish, however, that you would please take up the cause elsewhere, perhaps on the thread Twinky made. I came back to this thread to read about CFFM, who has my interest in a good way. But what do I find? another lengthy defense from you.
So where's all this interest in CFFM? These threads seem to have a life of their own, too.
The interest in CFFM is MY interest in what CFFM does with its finances, so far as may be known.
It's okay to ask that question, surely?
On this thread, I'm not interested in anything else.
Again, being a double-crossed ex-wayfer, I am extremely skeptical of any ministry, especially an offshoot. Having held CFF to the light of day a little, I really have nothing bad to say about them. It seems like Guigou and the gang really care and are doing what they know to do. I would think there would be a financial report available some place? They do have "love offerings" (I wish they would call that something else,) so they do at least accept donations. They are required to report on how the donations are being utilized, I do believe.
Because CFFM is based on VPW and his offspring, and they must sanitize him to have even an appearance of legitimacy. This way they can blame the way international's problems on Craig and Rosie then have a nice little haven for ex-wayfers that can come, be casual, and carry on Vic's legacy. From my experiences attending the fellowship that is close to me they just want some bible and others to fellowship with. Besides SOWERS I really have nothing bad to say about them except they sanitize Victor Paul Wierwille into a great man.
You know, I knew Wayne, and Kevin both back in their TWI days. They actually both were pretty decent guys for the most part. And Jon N3ssle too. I think Jon got scrwd over by Okus Lecherous Rantus Prime and that W@ll@c3 clown mentioned in the recent Hirschfeld thread. Wayne was the research guy behind most of the "far out" new stuff that was taught on the 2nd PFAL / FNC class Okus taught - well, N3ssle too. Rosie Rivitus Prime absolutely hated Wayne, as she does all people in some of his categories - men, and people with an IQ above 100 who don't prostrate themselves in front of her. He got treated very heavy-handed with all the schedule BS, really ridden hard. Then he got kicked out and put on probation. So it's just natural some of these guys when they've been treated as poorly as TWI treats about 95% of their people, to pick up and go across the street and start another church.
To me, CFFM basically IS TWI, except they bill themselves as being more loving and caring. I mean, if you took all the BS garbage that TWI has been spewing in the last decade about being a "kinder, gentler ministry" and looked at it from a realistic perspective, that probably is CFFM for the most part. CFFM probably is the kinder gentler TWI. I guess it's a viable option for some, and with TWI becoming progressively more hard and stupid you may see a greater gravitation there over to CFFM. The TWI BOD made CFFM, and continue to make it viable. I hope as those guys grow they remember the lessons they learned from how they were treated and never do the same.
Is there a problem with it? Well, here you have my soapbox kicking in here, so caveats and disclaimers all out front and all that. IMO, Jesus said you can't put new wine in old wineskins. And that is THE #1 MAIN PROBLEM with all these offshoots. These guys get treated poorly, get ....ed, and their first knee-jerk reaction is to go out there on a government website and start up their own 501-c or whatever corporation. WTF? Why is that necessary? They really aren't able to detach themselves from the doctrine of TWI and move on. They repeat the past. I mean look at the fiasco with JL and STF. Those guys managed to self-destruct within 10 years or so.
IMO the main problem we have today with Christianity isn't the concepts, the teachings, the fellowships. It's what enters in when people try to make a profession out of it. 501-c regulates the flow of money. Why do you need a flow of money? One person can give a gift to another person without that. You can live Christian lives in your home, among families, in a community. When $$$ comes in, that's when you start to see motives and behavior change. You start to see man building up endless empires unto himself, organizations to "serve". And when you bring God into the mixture of all that it just is really problematic.
Take CFFM for instance. Look at their most recent newsletter. You've got Kevin and an article witnessing to a gal on a plane, helping her. Good general stuff, but does it really need to be broadcast out across the nations? I mean I don't feel the need to blog about my plane conversations. Did the people in Acts do that? Circulate newsletters writing about their great escapades in witnessing? Well - Luke recorded them, but that's a 3rd person perspective (1st in places), but it's different. I'm kind of picking on Kevin - but he's got a job to do - the ABS pays his salary, so he has to crank out an article. And one about his efforts to expand the group is pretty standard. Then in CFFM's newsletter you have all the "Zone Happenings". OK. WTF is a "Zone"? One guy writes - "Are You in the Zone? If not, let us help you get there?". I mean, is this normal Christian language? WTF is a "Zone"? Am I playing defense on basketball here? You dig a little deeper and you find out that basically the "Zones" are equivalent to TWI's "Regions". You have Zone coordinators, and State coordinators or contacts. Already, we have people behaving like clowns and focusing on and highlighting their positions within CFFM over any Christian teachings or Bible verses. Where did this start? Well, at the top of course. You have the guys who picked up shop and are relatively reasonable guys starting to "ordain" other people. And have annual planning meetings. This grew into setting up a leadership structure. When you do that in many ways it values one person over another. Especially the higher up you go. At a local "fellowship" type level, it's just a person opening their home up for meetings. So there's a limit to how big the head can get.
I mean - all these guys, they really want to live the book of Acts in our day and time? Why don't they look at it's greatest example - Paul. He basically had a craft and worked part time volunteer mostly. Sometimes people gave him money or put him up, but he didn't draw a salary. Oh but you say Jerusalem they had a leadership structure and full-time people. Yeah, they did - mostly to handle all the converts on Pentecost. However, human nature scrwd that one up too within Paul's lifetime, and those leaders got egotistical hard and legalistic. To me the lessons of the NT and Acts in general point me towards living Christianity in my home and with a small circle of friends and away from organized religion. I've had enough of God mixed in with human nature in an organized sense, and the only stomach I have recently for human nature to deal with is that of my own family. Small and contained, I can deal with it.
All right, chockfull will get off the soapbox now. .02 out.
Chock, I couldn't have said it better myself! Â Thanks for a great post!
quote: Once you marketing yourself, it stops being about God and starts being about you. God gave us his word freely, freely it should also be given.
It IS about you...and me. God has delegated the responsibility of reconciling men unto God to the church. Charging money doesn't violate anyone's free will.
quote: So your telling me the minister whose giving people the bread of life on the street corner is presenting a poorer quality verson of the bible than someone, say, charging $100 for a class?
The quality of the word of God is the same; how it is presented is a non issue. VP charged money and got over 100,000 people worldwide to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ. The guy on the street corner? Not so much. You don't think that counts for something as far as God is concerned? Since the 1800s mass production, sales, and marketing have been a way of civilized life. Plus, there's a devil who is the god of this world who doesn't want the word of God promoted, whether it's in the 1st century or the 21st. So of course the devil will always have false moral arguments against the spreading of the gospel. You speak with forked tongue: if VP was the guy on the street corner, you would say he doesn't have any impact, but if VP sells, markets, and mass produces the word of God, now you say he's charging for something that should be freely given. Praise God, not VP, but blame VP, not the devil. The double standards never seem to end.
John, if you are happy with your fellowship, stay with it. Â Me, I have no interests in any Religious Organizations now days. Â I do attend a 12-Step Program, which allows me to choose the God of "my understanding." Shalom!
Rev. Billy Graham taught the gospel of Jesus Christ to MILLIONS.
Wierwille taught his more abundant life series and absent-Christ doctrine.
Yes, and he made a lot of money doing it. Â His son Franklin makes a lot of $$$$ following in his father's footsteps. Â I personally don't think either one of them knew Jack about God, but that's me. Â If others want to give $$$$ listening to the Graham family, that's their business, not mine.
I recognize some of the names associated with CFFM and I knew a few of them back in the day. We were in the same branch. A few of these people, to me seemed like genuine, down to earth people. I have heard the spectrum on personal experiences with Kevin G. but, I remember nice things about him. They, for the most part seemed like kind people. Far more kind and good than I was. They probably still are in many respects.
However, aren't we talking about an offshoot of a rather devious cult? Didn't they learn to understand scriptures the same way we did? There is a particular and blinding understanding of the bible which is associated with TWI. It was culled from a myriad of sources and thrown together with a less than altruistic motives. Look at the man who hobbled it together. In fact, it doesn't hurt to examine the men whose intellectual property he stole. It also doesn't hurt to really examine some legitimate criticism of them.
TWI has a very cloying theology which is difficult if not almost impossible to overcome. Which in part, is why it is so problematic for many to assimilate into the Christian community. I am not just speaking of the biggies. We used the same phraseology as Christianity, yet we held these terms with a subtle but far different understanding. Not to be too obvious, but someone is right, and someone is wrong...or someone is at the least closer to correct.
Why would we be so wedded to that theology and understanding that we would want to pursue it beyond our initial experience with a destructive cult? It was the theology or explanation of God which allowed for such an embracing of sin. When that was exposed there was violent swing into legalism. For many, it took leaving the cult, and for some faith entirely to find some peace.
There is a characteristic associated with TWI, and I would imagine these offshoots....that is really a tough one to recognize IMO. Ever learning and never coming to a knowledge of the truth. Meaning Jesus Christ. Christ is not a part of TWI theology. There is no real relationship with or understanding of who Jesus is....but, that is what the Christian faith is....a relationship...and our relationship is with God through Christ. Not with the written word, but with the Word, Himself.
We were always going one step more...one class more....one program more....but, it doesn't work like that. The more one learns, the more one realizes we don't know much right? We can always learn more. Yet, with a faulty basic understanding, which allows us to consign such a different meaning to things....there is no arriving at a knowledge of the truth. Christ.
So, why keep trying with the same understanding, the same people who learned as we did, from the same false teacher? He was the one who gave us our understanding of scripture and God. VP was who planted that thought process and blinding theology through the PFAL series and the life encompassing Way Ministry.
Why would we keep going back? These guys were in the same cult we were....raised up in the same "Way". Who are these people trying to teach others? Where did they learn?
We are really going to deny 500 years of reformation because of PFAL?
"In '73 and '74 even before there were official branches and limbs, the area leader kept the abs for a month and then turned it in to the limb leader. Said limb leader then kept it also for a month before turning it in to hq. If either the area or limb leader needed something that month, the cost came out of the abs. My area leader needed some tires because he traveled a lot to care for his people so that was taken frrom the abs. Somewhere in '74-5 hq called all abs directly in to hq because they said some were abusing the privilege."
When I took the class in 1972, the Way Tree structure was already solidly in place. (branches and limbs). We were instructed to never use the ABS for local needs. We weren't even allowed to use money from the ABS to buy the stamps to send it to HQ. Maybe other people's experiences had to do with geography. I don't really know. That's my personal experience of that period of time.
edit:
And we were forbidden from doing things like bake sales and car washes to provide for local needs, such as hall rentals. I think this was supposed to be based on the George Mueller idea that God would be the sole source to supply your needs. Or, perhaps, that's the image Wierwille wanted to convey to the public.
What that did, in reality, was to create an atmosphere of codependency. (Some people are givers and some people are takers) I never really saw that aspect of it very clearly until I went into fellowlaborers of Ohio. In that program, with 50 people living in close quarters, it was quite apparent. I think one's memories (ie: fuzzy feelings) of the FLO program may be related to where one stood in the codependency queue.
Way, I never understood VPW/TWI's aversion to bake sales, and car washes. Â I used to attend a Methodist Church in Bethesda, and once a year, the kids would hold a Car Wash. Â I always got the car washed during it; they did a great job, and I got the car washed at a good price. Â I can't remember what they did with the money; perhaps sent kids to Summer Bible Camp??
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chockfull
You know, I knew Wayne, and Kevin both back in their TWI days. They actually both were pretty decent guys for the most part. And Jon N3ssle too. I think Jon got scrwd over by Okus Lecherous Rantus
mstar1
A way offshoot actually doing something? I'd like to hear otherwise,that theyre out building hospitals, schools or curing aids or something but its not very likely from any group that still reveres W
Broken Arrow
That's just insane, yet all too common from what I've seen. If a victim speaks out against their abuser, people in their insanity find a way to blame the abuser. I mean, just listen to that, "You shou
johniam
quote: my witnessing and undershepherding days are long gone
Don't you witness and undershepherd your own kid? You may not teach him the word, but you teach him anything you think will help him, right? That's all witnessing and undershepherding is.
quote: common sense seems to be what i like
Everybody's common sense is based on SOME belief system.
quote: Do you really think the inhabitants of GS are a mass shelter for devil spirits, and it is your mission to "clear them out"?
LOL. If I was going to suspect anyone of having devil spirits, it wouldn't be because of what you believe about VP et al, it would be because of the crippled logic used in responding to what I say. You still constantly misrepresent me.
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So_crates
Us misrepresenting you is one explaination. You miscommunicating is another.
The purpose of communication is its result. If your not getting the results you want change your communication.
SoCrates
Edited by So_cratesLink to comment
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waysider
Everything in life is one big Way reference for you isn't it? No, I don't think raising a child is anything like witnessing and undershepherding. According to the W&U syllabus, the stated purpose of witnessing and undershepherding is to sign people up for the PFAL class. Do you see any discrepancy here?
edit: Sorry for the derail Twinky.
Now we can get back to CFFM (or wander over to the soapbox thread.)
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Ham
no, I am actually trying to understand you. Maybe that is an impossibility. I've given you several chances to explain yourself.
What was the safe harbor, or safe haven you seem to have enjoyed under vic's tutelage? Thirty pages on another thread, and you finally admit it was NOT physical safety or security. For any run of the mill way follower. That's a good start. We've moved one block of "what it is not" aside.
What exactly WAS it?
Maybe we should address the same question to CFF..
I think the worst answer I'd get is "I don't know. I'll have to look it over a little more closely.."
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chockfull
Hey johniam. No offense or anything, but could we move this whole discussion about you being misrepresented and needing to defend yourself over to the "My Personal Soapbox" thread? This thread here I think people were trying to keep somewhat focused on discussing CFFM. However, as of the last few pages, the topic has turned away from that and more to focus on you. And you keep posting here which prolongs that. Not that I'm against talking with you, I would just rather not completely dilute the content of this thread to do so. Can you please answer over on that other thread? Thanks for understanding. I'll actually copy your response over and answer there.
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OldSkool
I am beginning to think dude is just trolling at this point.
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Twinky
Okay, I opened a new thread specially for Johniam to have his say. Other people have gone there so that they can continue to converse with John.
Who hasn't shown up there yet? John!!!! Because, it seems, he would rather distract everybody else.
I asked a question because I wanted an answer.
The answer seems to be, that CFFM in fact DOES dish out money. I don't know the level of that, but they sent me their tapes for a long time till I asked them not to because I can listen over the net. They've never asked me for anything towards the tape cost. And I haven't seen anybody saying that they are greedy b***s who demand "ABS" as a right.
Could I respectfully suggest that if John posts again on this thread - the rest of us ignore him, copy any response onto the Soapbox thread, and respond to him there? He can do what he likes there. Go off on any tangent he likes.
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johniam
quote: Okay, I opened a new thread specially for Johniam to have his say. Other people have gone there so that they can continue to converse with John.
Who hasn't shown up there yet? John!!!!
Awwww. All dressed up and no one to seduce.
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johniam
quote:
Could I respectfully suggest that if John posts again on this thread - the rest of us ignore him, copy any response onto the Soapbox thread, and respond to him there? He can do what he likes there. Go off on any tangent he likes.
Your argument is totally bogus! The first person to start derailing this thread was actually Excathedra; something about don't tell your story because it hurts the kids and grandkids. Then you didn't mind Oldskool, Mstar, Brokenarrow, Chockfull, Socrates, and Skyrider; all these posters, directly comparing CFFM with TWI. This is all on the first page; MY first post was the first post on page 2. I related my experience with CFFM, quite legitimate, on topic. In doing so, I addressed stuff posted by Chockfull, Socrates, and Skyrider. Don't I have the right to dispute what others post? You all certainly dispute me!
Then Pawtucket himself made the next post, seemingly concurring with some stuff I posted. That's why you passionately appeal to folks to ignore me. Pawtucket, apparently, won't cooperate with you. Then on post #31 you dispute what I posted. Then I commit the unforgiveable; I IGNORE you. Then, in post #37 you accuse ME of derailing this thread.
It's been 3 months now since I started posting again. I'm not trying to "convert" anyone to any organization or ideology; I'm just giving my opinion, which still embraces much TWI teaching, I admit, but the revised rules say, regarding opinions and povs, "we welcome them ALL". In those same 3 months there have now been several threads which would have had less than 100 posts and stopped except for overreactions to me. It is, I guess, so threatening to have even ONE poster here who sticks to his guns and still supports ANY twi doctrine that, as I said before, the damage control just keeps pouring in.
You really DO misrepresent me. If I dispute even ONE thing unofficially recognized as GSC "doctrine", you act like I'm the devil. You assign to me all manner of evil thinking that I NEVER posted or thought. Is it ME that's rattling your cages, or are you doing that yourselves?
One more thing. When TWI got going, at least during the 60s, they surely fancied themselves as the other side of the denominational story. People could come to twig, calmly discuss their dissatisfaction with their churches, and receive meaningful input. But by the time someone has been to their hundredth fellowship, sat through their hundredth believer's meeting, and taken foundational pfal for the tenth time, then the other side of the story becomes the ONLY side of the story. That's not something VP could totally control; when that many people get involved, the group takes on a shape and life of its own. That's true of any business as well.
To many of you, the other side of the twi story is now the ONLY side of the story. That's not Pawtucket's doing, it's YOURS! Paul Allen didn't post that much on Waydale either, he picked his spots. I can't stop you from ignoring me or even forcing me off here, I guess, but what does it say about YOU that you say "Aughhhh! I'm melting!" just because ONE poster can't be persuaded to concur with you?
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OldSkool
My friend, I still embrace "TWI teaching" because some of it is biblical, and I still endeavor to embrace the bible, God, and Jesus. Not everything the the way international taught is BS, but there is a significant portion of it that is worse than BS. At this point I am not sure I will ever totally agree with anyone about biblical matters, and that is just fine.
I wasn't around for the early days of the way international. I can say this from first hand experience as way corps who has intimate knowledge of the inner workings of TWI - The way international is the way it is by design. It is strictly micromanaged from the top down using the way of the USA through the way tree structure. The things that VPW, and Craig taught that have not been specifically re-taught (i.e. adultery is wrong, etc.) are still believed and held as truth. So, the way international does not have life of it's own, it is molded in Rosalie Rivenbark's and Donna Martindale's image. They all learned that neat little trick from Victor Paul Wierwille.
Personally, I don't really care if you ever agree with me. At this point I am not even sure what all of this is about. I do wish, however, that you would please take up the cause elsewhere, perhaps on the thread Twinky made. I came back to this thread to read about CFFM, who has my interest in a good way. But what do I find? another lengthy defense from you. Now, let's pretend for a second you are here to defend CFFM with all your zeal....it would really discourage me from having anything to do with them. Presuming this is the case, I am assuming this is not what you would want.
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chockfull
The funniest thing about all that was how RR early on highlighted the problem with LCM "having too much power" - the main teacher AND the main administrator functions together. Then through stifling micromanagement she garners up ALL of the power and basically takes the power away from any of the teaching side by requiring them to submit teachings ahead of time for approval, go through a dress rehearsal before her and other BOD members where she can change "approve/disapprove" of content, etc.
I guess that's what you get when you cross a little old lady schoolteacher with Godzilla - Rozilla
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johniam
quote: I do wish, however, that you would please take up the cause elsewhere, perhaps on the thread Twinky made. I came back to this thread to read about CFFM, who has my interest in a good way. But what do I find? another lengthy defense from you.
So where's all this interest in CFFM? These threads seem to have a life of their own, too.
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Ham
I hope you aren't suggesting that Squirrels want to sleep with you..
*we* have to be invited.
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Twinky
I can't even be bothered to reply to Johniam's post #110 above.
Chockfull has replied adequately on the Soap Box thread. I'll not prolong the agony here.
The interest in CFFM is MY interest in what CFFM does with its finances, so far as may be known.
It's okay to ask that question, surely?
On this thread, I'm not interested in anything else.
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OldSkool
Again, being a double-crossed ex-wayfer, I am extremely skeptical of any ministry, especially an offshoot. Having held CFF to the light of day a little, I really have nothing bad to say about them. It seems like Guigou and the gang really care and are doing what they know to do. I would think there would be a financial report available some place? They do have "love offerings" (I wish they would call that something else,) so they do at least accept donations. They are required to report on how the donations are being utilized, I do believe.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Excie, I love your posts! Â They can go F-themselves! They have no idea of what they are missing!
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Grace Valerie Claire
IMHO, VPW was a POS!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Chock, I couldn't have said it better myself! Â Thanks for a great post!
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Grace Valerie Claire
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Grace Valerie Claire
John, if you are happy with your fellowship, stay with it. Â Me, I have no interests in any Religious Organizations now days. Â I do attend a 12-Step Program, which allows me to choose the God of "my understanding." Shalom!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Yes, and he made a lot of money doing it. Â His son Franklin makes a lot of $$$$ following in his father's footsteps. Â I personally don't think either one of them knew Jack about God, but that's me. Â If others want to give $$$$ listening to the Graham family, that's their business, not mine.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Me either 779!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Way, you can have the world. Â Me, I want some new furniture!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Way, I never understood VPW/TWI's aversion to bake sales, and car washes. Â I used to attend a Methodist Church in Bethesda, and once a year, the kids would hold a Car Wash. Â I always got the car washed during it; they did a great job, and I got the car washed at a good price. Â I can't remember what they did with the money; perhaps sent kids to Summer Bible Camp??
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