I got to spend some time with John Shroyer in 2001ish. He was a very compassionate man. Something that is little known about John is that when people were leaving TWI, John would take them in or put them up in a hotel so that they could decompress. He would help them get to where they wanted to be with cash, transportation, support. The folks that I knew that were helped by him told me about how generous and empathetic he was. Never did he try to convince them of CFF, he just wanted to help get their lives back on track.
I remember John too, Paw. He was compassionate even when in TWI. I was sad when he died.
quote: Once you marketing yourself, it stops being about God and starts being about you. God gave us his word freely, freely it should also be given.
It IS about you...and me. God has delegated the responsibility of reconciling men unto God to the church. Charging money doesn't violate anyone's free will.
quote: So your telling me the minister whose giving people the bread of life on the street corner is presenting a poorer quality verson of the bible than someone, say, charging $100 for a class?
The quality of the word of God is the same; how it is presented is a non issue. VP charged money and got over 100,000 people worldwide to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ. The guy on the street corner? Not so much. You don't think that counts for something as far as God is concerned? Since the 1800s mass production, sales, and marketing have been a way of civilized life. Plus, there's a devil who is the god of this world who doesn't want the word of God promoted, whether it's in the 1st century or the 21st. So of course the devil will always have false moral arguments against the spreading of the gospel. You speak with forked tongue: if VP was the guy on the street corner, you would say he doesn't have any impact, but if VP sells, markets, and mass produces the word of God, now you say he's charging for something that should be freely given. Praise God, not VP, but blame VP, not the devil. The double standards never seem to end.
There is no scripture forbidding Christians to market themselves. Men and women with ministries may have to avoid certain situations, but there is a business side to any religion nowadays. Again, why shouldn't Christians be able to capitalize on that?
mmm - What happened to "freely you have received - freely give"?
Or is it, then, because you charged me for a Bible class, that gives me the right to charge someone else?
I don't think so!
Who did Jesus "charge"?
Who did his disciples "charge"?
Who did Paul, Apollos, other early gospel-spreaders, charge?
But Simon the magician wanted to know - so that he could charge. And he was briskly dealt with.
There is much condemnation of those "who think themselves to be something." That is, those who self-promote.
Christians have no business "marketing" themselves. They are to reckon the old man dead. They die to self, live to Christ. Therefore, johniam, shouldn't they be marketing their "new man" - their Christ - shouldn't they be "marketing" Christ? (Except that if they announced the price - who'd pay? It only costs you - yourself!)
The god of this world wants people to idolize people, bands, groups, events.
The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ has a rather different perspective. He makes blessings fall on the rich and the poor, the saint and the sinner. Without charge. Just because he likes to give.
The quality of the word of God is the same; how it is presented is a non issue.
On the contrary, its a very big issue.
First off, Saint Vic was selling second hand clothes as off the rack. Most everything he presented was researched by someone else. If anyone should have gotten the money, it should have been Scofeild and Bullinger and who was the guy Saint Vic ripped the class off of?
Second: we get to one of my questions you skipped over: Why didn't Christ hold classes and charge for them? Why didn't Paul? Or Peter?
Praise God, not VP, but blame VP, not the devil.
Third: So your telling me that Saint Vic was working for the devil? Whose speaking with a forked tongue now? A couple of posts ago, he was the shovel ready man of God, now he's the agent of the devil.
Fourth: when somebody commits a crime, we don't put the devil on trial. Likewise, the devil doesn't pull time in prison. Usually, especially if the individual is unrepentant and unremorseful, they shoulder the blame themselves.
I blame both Saint Vic and the devil. Saint Vic took my money and used it to his nefarious ends, not the devil. Saint Vic spread his venom, not the devil. Saint Vic plagerized, not the devil.
So of course the devil will always have false moral arguments against the spreading of the gospel.
Your point is well taken. And to show you how well you've made your point, I'll ask you: after all the time I've wasted with Saint Vic and his demented circus do you think I'll ever involve myself with another church or religion?
Will I ever speak of Saint Vic's doctrine (this, of course, presupposes he has the truth, which he didn't), outside of telling them how he plagerized and raped and misused ministry funds, to another soul?
So, the devil, through Saint Vic, has succeeded in preventing the gospel from being moved in me.
The quality of the word of God is the same; how it is presented is a non issue. VP charged money and got over 100,000 people worldwide to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Rev. Billy Graham taught the gospel of Jesus Christ to MILLIONS.
Wierwille taught his more abundant life series and absent-Christ doctrine.
I have experience with CFFM. One book on cults called 'Youth, brainwashing, and the extremist cults' quotes a minister saying that cults are the unpaid bills of the church. This means that cults (spinoffs, offshoots, etc.) wouldn't exist if the church was taking care of people properly.
I used to believe that but not anymore. IMO, people start spin-offs because they want to be the top dog. People follow because the spin-off offers a shortcut to something fantastic (the more abundant life, inner peace, sense of meaning, material prosperity the list is vast).
"One book on cults called 'Youth, brainwashing, and the extremist cults' quotes a minister saying that cults are the unpaid bills of the church. This means that cults (spinoffs, offshoots, etc.) wouldn't exist if the church was taking care of people properly."
Cults come in all shapes and sizes, not just the church/religious variety. For that reason, I would have to say that the above conclusion is flawed.
Anyway, this thread has been derailed and is going further off track, thanks to Johniam. This thread is NOT about TWI or VPW or any such.
What I wanted to know was whether CFFM uses the money it receives to help the community around it, or the believers who at least put the money in the coffers. A few of you have suggested that, yes, it does. It does seem more open to giving away the money to those in need.
What I wanted to know was whether CFFM uses the money it receives to help the community around it, or the believers who at least put the money in the coffers.
Probably not the community as they don't have the money for that kind of thing, but there have been definite reports of them helping people in their organization. As the structure builds up and gets bigger that kind of thing usually dies out but you never know.
quote: What I wanted to know was whether CFFM uses the money it receives to help the community around it,
It's none of your business how anyone spends THEIR OWN money.
quote:
Rev. Billy Graham taught the gospel of Jesus Christ to MILLIONS.
You don't think he charged money for this? Like I said, if VP is the guy on the street corner, you say he has no impact.
I recall channel surfing once during the 80s. Donahue, the consumate liberal Christianity bigot, was grilling Orel Roberts because he (OR) charged money at his hospital. Orel says "it's kinda hard to pay electric bills without money". Then Donahue holds the mike up to some guy who says "yeah, you make a lot of money in the faith business, don't you"?
The devil, through media like Donahue, wants everybody to believe that Christians are second class citizens who don't deserve the "privileges" of being able to spend their own money the way they want to. Again, charging money doesn't violate anyone's free will.
quote: What I wanted to know was whether CFFM uses the money it receives to help the community around it,
It's none of your business how anyone spends THEIR OWN money.
quote:
Rev. Billy Graham taught the gospel of Jesus Christ to MILLIONS.
You don't think he charged money for this? Like I said, if VP is the guy on the street corner, you say he has no impact....
The devil, through media like Donahue, wants everybody to believe that Christians are second class citizens who don't deserve the "privileges" of being able to spend their own money the way they want to. Again, charging money doesn't violate anyone's free will.
Yes, it doesn't violate free will. But, it does take the focus off of God and put it on the person doing the marketing.
TWI is a perfect example of this. Believers didn't worship God, they worshipped Saint Vic. Every word out of Saint Vic's mouth was golden, whether he was talking about molesting his daughter or making outragous claims like he created fast food.
And the worshipping continues to this day. Rather than seeing Saint Vic for what he was, an evil egomaniac who raped and pillaged his way across the landscape, followers prefer to rationalize:
Oh, he was only human. Make a mistake in the ministry and see how far that excuse gets you with any of the leadership.
So he had a few affairs. So then what's a person who can't keep his pants zipped doing telling me how I should be living a pure life?
The devil made him do it. What's a person controlled by the devil doing in charge of God's people.
The devil wants the word stopped so he created this narrative. Easy rationalization, then people who are trying to get the truth out are agents of the devil. Blaming the victims, an old ministry ploy. Saying the people speaking the truth are possessed, another old ministry ploy.
Even though the TWi claims it taught the Word like it did in the first century, it uses capitialist methods. Forked tongue, anyone? Even though the ministry says it does what's best, it fails to look at the examples set by the people who started Christianity. If charging for a class is best, why didn't Jesus Christ do it? Or Paul? Or Peter? Forked tongue, anyone?
Not a violation of free will, but it leads to a violation of free will. Let's see first your force to pay for the class--a class stolen from someone else, I might add. Then your asked to produce 10% ABS. That asking becomes a nudge, then that nudge becomes a shove. That shove becomes: you do it or your not a part of this ministry. You see how it all cascades?
Nobody is arguing money for overhead expenses: that's what ABS is for. The problem is when you get away from the bibical mandates of use what you need for overhead, then use it to help believers.
And as long as we're on ABS, by God's standards, Saint Vic misappropriated ministry funds. You think Paul went out and bought himself a top of the line chariot with the ABS money? AS you recall, Jesus Christ mandated that the the apostles carry as little with them as possible. On the other hand, Saint Vic took the money we gave him to move the word and bought himself trinkets: a motorcoach; an airplane; a motorcycle; trips to the Indy 500 and God knows what else.
I recall channel surfing once during the 80s. Donahue, the consumate liberal Christianity bigot, was grilling Orel Roberts because he (OR) charged money at his hospital. Orel says "it's kinda hard to pay electric bills without money".
Once again, you argue apples and oranges. A hospital is a building with lots of overhead. Holding the class, where's the overhead? The class was presented by volunteers, the building was paid for by the same volunteers, as were the utilities. The class was already taped, what bills were there?
Running HQ? Well, again you get back to that's what ABS is for.
It's none of your business how anyone spends THEIR OWN money.
Ahh, but here is where the problem comes in. Even though a 501c-3 non-profit corporation is a separate entity and can be correctly referred to as "anyone", the IRS has very specific reporting rules for donation that are supposed to be made public. So really, it is our business.
It IS about you...and me. God has delegated the responsibility of reconciling men unto God to the church. Charging money doesn't violate anyone's free will.
What exactly does "reconciling men unto God to the church" mean? In that phrase there is somewhat of a confusion of destination there.
The quality of the word of God is the same; how it is presented is a non issue. VP charged money and got over 100,000 people worldwide to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ. The guy on the street corner? Not so much. You don't think that counts for something as far as God is concerned? Since the 1800s mass production, sales, and marketing have been a way of civilized life. Plus, there's a devil who is the god of this world who doesn't want the word of God promoted, whether it's in the 1st century or the 21st. So of course the devil will always have false moral arguments against the spreading of the gospel. You speak with forked tongue: if VP was the guy on the street corner, you would say he doesn't have any impact, but if VP sells, markets, and mass produces the word of God, now you say he's charging for something that should be freely given. Praise God, not VP, but blame VP, not the devil. The double standards never seem to end.
I would contend that VP got 100,000 people to hear the gospel of VP. When you examine the personal lives of VP and Jesus Christ you see in VP an egotistical cult leader with a motor coach, expensive toys, a plane, who sexually abused people and verbally abused others. With Jesus Christ you see humility. Looking at the fruit makes the gospel of each much easier to ascertain.
Johnia, it's not CFFM's money. It's given to them in trust to use it to help those in need. Like money was given to the apostles to redistribute to those in need. Not to be used for their own personal ends. Sure, some of those ends will include salaries for paid staff (not begrudging that) but it's not to be held in a bank account gathering interest when there are people with genuine needs out there.
It's like the manna that was received in the desert. Use it straight away or it will go bad. Manna only kept two days over the Sabbath.
Likewise a heap of ABS that's kept "turns bad" and makes those who "guard" it think of it as their personal property. But it isn't. In effect, they're stealing it off those who do have needs.
Back to the topic, johniam. Do please stop being so distracting. Go start your own thread. Stop hijacking other people's. All you do, in fact, johniam, is make me think that CFFM is doing good. Because the model you keep holding up,VP, is so clearly bad, and you are obviously unable to say that about CFFM. Thanks!
I recognize some of the names associated with CFFM and I knew a few of them back in the day. We were in the same branch. A few of these people, to me seemed like genuine, down to earth people. I have heard the spectrum on personal experiences with Kevin G. but, I remember nice things about him. They, for the most part seemed like kind people. Far more kind and good than I was. They probably still are in many respects.
However, aren't we talking about an offshoot of a rather devious cult? Didn't they learn to understand scriptures the same way we did? There is a particular and blinding understanding of the bible which is associated with TWI. It was culled from a myriad of sources and thrown together with a less than altruistic motives. Look at the man who hobbled it together. In fact, it doesn't hurt to examine the men whose intellectual property he stole. It also doesn't hurt to really examine some legitimate criticism of them.
TWI has a very cloying theology which is difficult if not almost impossible to overcome. Which in part, is why it is so problematic for many to assimilate into the Christian community. I am not just speaking of the biggies. We used the same phraseology as Christianity, yet we held these terms with a subtle but far different understanding. Not to be too obvious, but someone is right, and someone is wrong...or someone is at the least closer to correct.
Why would we be so wedded to that theology and understanding that we would want to pursue it beyond our initial experience with a destructive cult? It was the theology or explanation of God which allowed for such an embracing of sin. When that was exposed there was violent swing into legalism. For many, it took leaving the cult, and for some faith entirely to find some peace.
There is a characteristic associated with TWI, and I would imagine these offshoots....that is really a tough one to recognize IMO. Ever learning and never coming to a knowledge of the truth. Meaning Jesus Christ. Christ is not a part of TWI theology. There is no real relationship with or understanding of who Jesus is....but, that is what the Christian faith is....a relationship...and our relationship is with God through Christ. Not with the written word, but with the Word, Himself.
We were always going one step more...one class more....one program more....but, it doesn't work like that. The more one learns, the more one realizes we don't know much right? We can always learn more. Yet, with a faulty basic understanding, which allows us to consign such a different meaning to things....there is no arriving at a knowledge of the truth. Christ.
So, why keep trying with the same understanding, the same people who learned as we did, from the same false teacher? He was the one who gave us our understanding of scripture and God. VP was who planted that thought process and blinding theology through the PFAL series and the life encompassing Way Ministry.
Why would we keep going back? These guys were in the same cult we were....raised up in the same "Way". Who are these people trying to teach others? Where did they learn?
We are really going to deny 500 years of reformation because of PFAL?
quote: What I wanted to know was whether CFFM uses the money it receives to help the community around it,
It's none of your business how anyone spends THEIR OWN money.
Really? Being the unemployed business tycoon that I am, even I know that publically traded organizations are required to submit an annual financial statement to their stockholders. Furthermore, ever try to get a substantial loan from a bank without showing them a financial statement? Good luck. I've seen many companies try, they don't get very far. So, if one wants to do business with an organization it is commonplace to ask for an accounting of how the money is spent. Of course, that same company can refuse to disclose the information, unless they are publically traded. In that case, an individual has a right to refuse to have any dealings with said organization.
Doubtless you're going to give me the standard line that if you don't trust the organization you shouldn't be involved with them anyway. Asking for an accounting is not distrust, it's just prudent. I think the Bible has something to say about putting our complete trust in men.
quote:
Rev. Billy Graham taught the gospel of Jesus Christ to MILLIONS.
You don't think he charged money for this? Like I said, if VP is the guy on the street corner, you say he has no impact.
Graham did not charge people to come to his meetings, at least not the one I went to. I'm sure he gets money from somewhere, but not from the attendants, not that that has anything to do with anything. As far as VP and his "impact", put him on the street corner, radio, television, in front of a large meeting, and the truth of the matter is, VP had very very little impact.
I recall channel surfing once during the 80s. Donahue, the consumate liberal Christianity bigot, was grilling Orel Roberts because he (OR) charged money at his hospital. Orel says "it's kinda hard to pay electric bills without money". Then Donahue holds the mike up to some guy who says "yeah, you make a lot of money in the faith business, don't you"?
Donahue was not a liberal Christian bigot. Donahue was not a Christian at all. He was just a jerk. Maybe, "consumate liberal bigot" would be more fitting.
It's none of your business how anyone spends THEIR OWN money.
Just where did this: there own money business start?
Its not the ministry's money, its ours which we donate. Ask anyone with a green card, you didn't pay for something, you donated it.
Its a little syntaxic game the 501-cs play: The charge you for something, the fed can tax it. But if its donated, its free and clear money.
Further, just what did we donate that money for? It wasn't to defray expenses involved in holding the class: volunteers moderated, usually in their home--so there was no rent or utilities overhead. The equipment was already bought. The class was already filmed. So what expenses were there to defray?
What it comes down to is: We donated the money for a specific purpose: the furtherance of the Word. Not a motorcoach to have affairs in; not an airplane to get to other far away affairs in; and certainly not a motorcycle to attract those girls who want bikers so he could have affairs with them.
You remind me of the government who went on endlessly the last quarter of 2010 about tax cuts. Who you giving a cut to? Its our money.
Much like the government, what does the ministry really produce?
While I realize people like to "think" they own that precious green paper and the elemental pieces of stuff it can be traded for.. Isn't it really all God's? And if one were to say they "work" for Him, do what He wishes...
Sure, I have a problem with these paid "clergy".. Granted, if they help you, there's no doubt they ought to be worthy of compensation. (AFTER they have helped). For surely then they have received their reward already in full, but those who give in secret will be rewarded by their Father. (Matthew 6)
If you want to help, help. If you want money, just state it plainly instead of hiding it behind a veil. If that's their desire, to try and take money from those who have not, all in the name of "helping them know God". What you do, your actions, speak loudly of who you are. And these offshoots tell me enough that I realize I want nothing of them. Actually I lump many a churches, ministries, and the like in the same. For they show the same.
But my further beef with many of these groups, is that many try and dictate what it is God has said and meant in the Christian writings as if they are in the know and everyone else ought to look up to them. I mean, really, are they God? Every last one of them has changed their beliefs over time, so why should I think what they have to say is any more accurate than what they've already discarded. All this jive about present truth, time tested, and proven doctrine is just a bunch of bs in my opinion. When there's an opposing view with just as must time tested proven bs.. Sure, someone might be right. But the ego in it all.. I just couldn't stomach it after I left TWI.
The pyramid structure is not a structure of love and care IMHO. And I've only found it's used for the two things I could care less about. One, to try and keep "doctrine" pure (or should I say, their egocentric view pure). And the other is to be the largest servant, (read: Lord of God's people) I mean helpers yeah.. The ultimate guider, whereas ultimately, they become the ultimate receivers and beneficiarys lauded with great praise and adoration for what reason? Cause they started a 501.c, put themselves under the governments rules, and lauded their views.. :PUKE:
Probably not the community as they don't have the money for that kind of thing, but there have been definite reports of them helping people in their organization. As the structure builds up and gets bigger that kind of thing usually dies out but you never know.
Usually dies out?? Where does it do that? If anything their capability to serve their community and the world would grow, if like any healthy church it had real inclinations to servein some capacity
Size really has nothing to do with what an organization can and cannot do,it is a matter of their biblical priorities.
Entities that cling to TWI type teachings will never ever have real service oriented ministries and will always have a priority of building their own organization instead of service because the fada in the verd and the example was an egomaniac
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chockfull
You know, I knew Wayne, and Kevin both back in their TWI days. They actually both were pretty decent guys for the most part. And Jon N3ssle too. I think Jon got scrwd over by Okus Lecherous Rantus
mstar1
A way offshoot actually doing something? I'd like to hear otherwise,that theyre out building hospitals, schools or curing aids or something but its not very likely from any group that still reveres W
Broken Arrow
That's just insane, yet all too common from what I've seen. If a victim speaks out against their abuser, people in their insanity find a way to blame the abuser. I mean, just listen to that, "You shou
OldSkool
Good intentions pave the way to hell.
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chockfull
I remember John too, Paw. He was compassionate even when in TWI. I was sad when he died.
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johniam
quote: Once you marketing yourself, it stops being about God and starts being about you. God gave us his word freely, freely it should also be given.
It IS about you...and me. God has delegated the responsibility of reconciling men unto God to the church. Charging money doesn't violate anyone's free will.
quote: So your telling me the minister whose giving people the bread of life on the street corner is presenting a poorer quality verson of the bible than someone, say, charging $100 for a class?
The quality of the word of God is the same; how it is presented is a non issue. VP charged money and got over 100,000 people worldwide to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ. The guy on the street corner? Not so much. You don't think that counts for something as far as God is concerned? Since the 1800s mass production, sales, and marketing have been a way of civilized life. Plus, there's a devil who is the god of this world who doesn't want the word of God promoted, whether it's in the 1st century or the 21st. So of course the devil will always have false moral arguments against the spreading of the gospel. You speak with forked tongue: if VP was the guy on the street corner, you would say he doesn't have any impact, but if VP sells, markets, and mass produces the word of God, now you say he's charging for something that should be freely given. Praise God, not VP, but blame VP, not the devil. The double standards never seem to end.
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waysider
Did he really? Or did he he simply propound his personal interpretation of what he thought the scriptures ought to say?
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Twinky
johniam said:
mmm - What happened to "freely you have received - freely give"?
Or is it, then, because you charged me for a Bible class, that gives me the right to charge someone else?
I don't think so!
Who did Jesus "charge"?
Who did his disciples "charge"?
Who did Paul, Apollos, other early gospel-spreaders, charge?
But Simon the magician wanted to know - so that he could charge. And he was briskly dealt with.
There is much condemnation of those "who think themselves to be something." That is, those who self-promote.
Christians have no business "marketing" themselves. They are to reckon the old man dead. They die to self, live to Christ. Therefore, johniam, shouldn't they be marketing their "new man" - their Christ - shouldn't they be "marketing" Christ? (Except that if they announced the price - who'd pay? It only costs you - yourself!)
The god of this world wants people to idolize people, bands, groups, events.
The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ has a rather different perspective. He makes blessings fall on the rich and the poor, the saint and the sinner. Without charge. Just because he likes to give.
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So_crates
On the contrary, its a very big issue.
First off, Saint Vic was selling second hand clothes as off the rack. Most everything he presented was researched by someone else. If anyone should have gotten the money, it should have been Scofeild and Bullinger and who was the guy Saint Vic ripped the class off of?
Second: we get to one of my questions you skipped over: Why didn't Christ hold classes and charge for them? Why didn't Paul? Or Peter?
Third: So your telling me that Saint Vic was working for the devil? Whose speaking with a forked tongue now? A couple of posts ago, he was the shovel ready man of God, now he's the agent of the devil.
Fourth: when somebody commits a crime, we don't put the devil on trial. Likewise, the devil doesn't pull time in prison. Usually, especially if the individual is unrepentant and unremorseful, they shoulder the blame themselves.
I blame both Saint Vic and the devil. Saint Vic took my money and used it to his nefarious ends, not the devil. Saint Vic spread his venom, not the devil. Saint Vic plagerized, not the devil.
SoCrates
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So_crates
Your point is well taken. And to show you how well you've made your point, I'll ask you: after all the time I've wasted with Saint Vic and his demented circus do you think I'll ever involve myself with another church or religion?
Will I ever speak of Saint Vic's doctrine (this, of course, presupposes he has the truth, which he didn't), outside of telling them how he plagerized and raped and misused ministry funds, to another soul?
So, the devil, through Saint Vic, has succeeded in preventing the gospel from being moved in me.
SoCrates
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skyrider
Rev. Billy Graham taught the gospel of Jesus Christ to MILLIONS.
Wierwille taught his more abundant life series and absent-Christ doctrine.
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Broken Arrow
I used to believe that but not anymore. IMO, people start spin-offs because they want to be the top dog. People follow because the spin-off offers a shortcut to something fantastic (the more abundant life, inner peace, sense of meaning, material prosperity the list is vast).
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waysider
"One book on cults called 'Youth, brainwashing, and the extremist cults' quotes a minister saying that cults are the unpaid bills of the church. This means that cults (spinoffs, offshoots, etc.) wouldn't exist if the church was taking care of people properly."
Cults come in all shapes and sizes, not just the church/religious variety. For that reason, I would have to say that the above conclusion is flawed.
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Twinky
Anyway, this thread has been derailed and is going further off track, thanks to Johniam. This thread is NOT about TWI or VPW or any such.
What I wanted to know was whether CFFM uses the money it receives to help the community around it, or the believers who at least put the money in the coffers. A few of you have suggested that, yes, it does. It does seem more open to giving away the money to those in need.
I'm pleased to hear that.
Any more comments about CFFM?
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chockfull
Probably not the community as they don't have the money for that kind of thing, but there have been definite reports of them helping people in their organization. As the structure builds up and gets bigger that kind of thing usually dies out but you never know.
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johniam
quote: What I wanted to know was whether CFFM uses the money it receives to help the community around it,
It's none of your business how anyone spends THEIR OWN money.
quote:
Rev. Billy Graham taught the gospel of Jesus Christ to MILLIONS.
You don't think he charged money for this? Like I said, if VP is the guy on the street corner, you say he has no impact.
I recall channel surfing once during the 80s. Donahue, the consumate liberal Christianity bigot, was grilling Orel Roberts because he (OR) charged money at his hospital. Orel says "it's kinda hard to pay electric bills without money". Then Donahue holds the mike up to some guy who says "yeah, you make a lot of money in the faith business, don't you"?
The devil, through media like Donahue, wants everybody to believe that Christians are second class citizens who don't deserve the "privileges" of being able to spend their own money the way they want to. Again, charging money doesn't violate anyone's free will.
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skyrider
Did I say anything about money?
Reread my post.
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So_crates
Yes, it doesn't violate free will. But, it does take the focus off of God and put it on the person doing the marketing.
TWI is a perfect example of this. Believers didn't worship God, they worshipped Saint Vic. Every word out of Saint Vic's mouth was golden, whether he was talking about molesting his daughter or making outragous claims like he created fast food.
And the worshipping continues to this day. Rather than seeing Saint Vic for what he was, an evil egomaniac who raped and pillaged his way across the landscape, followers prefer to rationalize:
Oh, he was only human. Make a mistake in the ministry and see how far that excuse gets you with any of the leadership.
So he had a few affairs. So then what's a person who can't keep his pants zipped doing telling me how I should be living a pure life?
The devil made him do it. What's a person controlled by the devil doing in charge of God's people.
The devil wants the word stopped so he created this narrative. Easy rationalization, then people who are trying to get the truth out are agents of the devil. Blaming the victims, an old ministry ploy. Saying the people speaking the truth are possessed, another old ministry ploy.
Even though the TWi claims it taught the Word like it did in the first century, it uses capitialist methods. Forked tongue, anyone? Even though the ministry says it does what's best, it fails to look at the examples set by the people who started Christianity. If charging for a class is best, why didn't Jesus Christ do it? Or Paul? Or Peter? Forked tongue, anyone?
Not a violation of free will, but it leads to a violation of free will. Let's see first your force to pay for the class--a class stolen from someone else, I might add. Then your asked to produce 10% ABS. That asking becomes a nudge, then that nudge becomes a shove. That shove becomes: you do it or your not a part of this ministry. You see how it all cascades?
Nobody is arguing money for overhead expenses: that's what ABS is for. The problem is when you get away from the bibical mandates of use what you need for overhead, then use it to help believers.
And as long as we're on ABS, by God's standards, Saint Vic misappropriated ministry funds. You think Paul went out and bought himself a top of the line chariot with the ABS money? AS you recall, Jesus Christ mandated that the the apostles carry as little with them as possible. On the other hand, Saint Vic took the money we gave him to move the word and bought himself trinkets: a motorcoach; an airplane; a motorcycle; trips to the Indy 500 and God knows what else.
Once again, you argue apples and oranges. A hospital is a building with lots of overhead. Holding the class, where's the overhead? The class was presented by volunteers, the building was paid for by the same volunteers, as were the utilities. The class was already taped, what bills were there?
Running HQ? Well, again you get back to that's what ABS is for.
SoCrates
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OldSkool
Ahh, but here is where the problem comes in. Even though a 501c-3 non-profit corporation is a separate entity and can be correctly referred to as "anyone", the IRS has very specific reporting rules for donation that are supposed to be made public. So really, it is our business.
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chockfull
What exactly does "reconciling men unto God to the church" mean? In that phrase there is somewhat of a confusion of destination there.
I would contend that VP got 100,000 people to hear the gospel of VP. When you examine the personal lives of VP and Jesus Christ you see in VP an egotistical cult leader with a motor coach, expensive toys, a plane, who sexually abused people and verbally abused others. With Jesus Christ you see humility. Looking at the fruit makes the gospel of each much easier to ascertain.
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Twinky
Johnia, it's not CFFM's money. It's given to them in trust to use it to help those in need. Like money was given to the apostles to redistribute to those in need. Not to be used for their own personal ends. Sure, some of those ends will include salaries for paid staff (not begrudging that) but it's not to be held in a bank account gathering interest when there are people with genuine needs out there.
It's like the manna that was received in the desert. Use it straight away or it will go bad. Manna only kept two days over the Sabbath.
Likewise a heap of ABS that's kept "turns bad" and makes those who "guard" it think of it as their personal property. But it isn't. In effect, they're stealing it off those who do have needs.
Back to the topic, johniam. Do please stop being so distracting. Go start your own thread. Stop hijacking other people's. All you do, in fact, johniam, is make me think that CFFM is doing good. Because the model you keep holding up,VP, is so clearly bad, and you are obviously unable to say that about CFFM. Thanks!
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geisha779
I recognize some of the names associated with CFFM and I knew a few of them back in the day. We were in the same branch. A few of these people, to me seemed like genuine, down to earth people. I have heard the spectrum on personal experiences with Kevin G. but, I remember nice things about him. They, for the most part seemed like kind people. Far more kind and good than I was. They probably still are in many respects.
However, aren't we talking about an offshoot of a rather devious cult? Didn't they learn to understand scriptures the same way we did? There is a particular and blinding understanding of the bible which is associated with TWI. It was culled from a myriad of sources and thrown together with a less than altruistic motives. Look at the man who hobbled it together. In fact, it doesn't hurt to examine the men whose intellectual property he stole. It also doesn't hurt to really examine some legitimate criticism of them.
TWI has a very cloying theology which is difficult if not almost impossible to overcome. Which in part, is why it is so problematic for many to assimilate into the Christian community. I am not just speaking of the biggies. We used the same phraseology as Christianity, yet we held these terms with a subtle but far different understanding. Not to be too obvious, but someone is right, and someone is wrong...or someone is at the least closer to correct.
Why would we be so wedded to that theology and understanding that we would want to pursue it beyond our initial experience with a destructive cult? It was the theology or explanation of God which allowed for such an embracing of sin. When that was exposed there was violent swing into legalism. For many, it took leaving the cult, and for some faith entirely to find some peace.
There is a characteristic associated with TWI, and I would imagine these offshoots....that is really a tough one to recognize IMO. Ever learning and never coming to a knowledge of the truth. Meaning Jesus Christ. Christ is not a part of TWI theology. There is no real relationship with or understanding of who Jesus is....but, that is what the Christian faith is....a relationship...and our relationship is with God through Christ. Not with the written word, but with the Word, Himself.
We were always going one step more...one class more....one program more....but, it doesn't work like that. The more one learns, the more one realizes we don't know much right? We can always learn more. Yet, with a faulty basic understanding, which allows us to consign such a different meaning to things....there is no arriving at a knowledge of the truth. Christ.
So, why keep trying with the same understanding, the same people who learned as we did, from the same false teacher? He was the one who gave us our understanding of scripture and God. VP was who planted that thought process and blinding theology through the PFAL series and the life encompassing Way Ministry.
Why would we keep going back? These guys were in the same cult we were....raised up in the same "Way". Who are these people trying to teach others? Where did they learn?
We are really going to deny 500 years of reformation because of PFAL?
Not me.
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Broken Arrow
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So_crates
Just where did this: there own money business start?
Its not the ministry's money, its ours which we donate. Ask anyone with a green card, you didn't pay for something, you donated it.
Its a little syntaxic game the 501-cs play: The charge you for something, the fed can tax it. But if its donated, its free and clear money.
Further, just what did we donate that money for? It wasn't to defray expenses involved in holding the class: volunteers moderated, usually in their home--so there was no rent or utilities overhead. The equipment was already bought. The class was already filmed. So what expenses were there to defray?
What it comes down to is: We donated the money for a specific purpose: the furtherance of the Word. Not a motorcoach to have affairs in; not an airplane to get to other far away affairs in; and certainly not a motorcycle to attract those girls who want bikers so he could have affairs with them.
You remind me of the government who went on endlessly the last quarter of 2010 about tax cuts. Who you giving a cut to? Its our money.
Much like the government, what does the ministry really produce?
SoCrates
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excathedra
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TrustAndObey
While I realize people like to "think" they own that precious green paper and the elemental pieces of stuff it can be traded for.. Isn't it really all God's? And if one were to say they "work" for Him, do what He wishes...
Sure, I have a problem with these paid "clergy".. Granted, if they help you, there's no doubt they ought to be worthy of compensation. (AFTER they have helped). For surely then they have received their reward already in full, but those who give in secret will be rewarded by their Father. (Matthew 6)
If you want to help, help. If you want money, just state it plainly instead of hiding it behind a veil. If that's their desire, to try and take money from those who have not, all in the name of "helping them know God". What you do, your actions, speak loudly of who you are. And these offshoots tell me enough that I realize I want nothing of them. Actually I lump many a churches, ministries, and the like in the same. For they show the same.
But my further beef with many of these groups, is that many try and dictate what it is God has said and meant in the Christian writings as if they are in the know and everyone else ought to look up to them. I mean, really, are they God? Every last one of them has changed their beliefs over time, so why should I think what they have to say is any more accurate than what they've already discarded. All this jive about present truth, time tested, and proven doctrine is just a bunch of bs in my opinion. When there's an opposing view with just as must time tested proven bs.. Sure, someone might be right. But the ego in it all.. I just couldn't stomach it after I left TWI.
The pyramid structure is not a structure of love and care IMHO. And I've only found it's used for the two things I could care less about. One, to try and keep "doctrine" pure (or should I say, their egocentric view pure). And the other is to be the largest servant, (read: Lord of God's people) I mean helpers yeah.. The ultimate guider, whereas ultimately, they become the ultimate receivers and beneficiarys lauded with great praise and adoration for what reason? Cause they started a 501.c, put themselves under the governments rules, and lauded their views.. :PUKE:
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mstar1
Usually dies out?? Where does it do that? If anything their capability to serve their community and the world would grow, if like any healthy church it had real inclinations to servein some capacity
Size really has nothing to do with what an organization can and cannot do,it is a matter of their biblical priorities.
Entities that cling to TWI type teachings will never ever have real service oriented ministries and will always have a priority of building their own organization instead of service because the fada in the verd and the example was an egomaniac
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