Dishing it out

[Broken Arrow]

quote

Donahue was not a liberal Christian bigot. Donahue was not a Christian at all. He was just a jerk. Maybe, "consumate liberal bigot" would be more fitting.

Sleep it off and LOOK at what I actually posted. I did not say "Christian bigot", I said CHRISTIANITY bigot. He is, IMO, a liberal who is a bigot who targets Christianity. There. That spell it out for you?

Sorry for the oversight, you're right, you said "Christianity bigot" and I quoted you saying "Christian bigot", and yes, thank you for the correction. You must have had nothing to say in response to any of the other things I wrote in that post.

[Ham]

I dunno. It seems it's (huper fundamentalist) Christianity, that buries itself..

how can one be logically accused of "targeting" something that seems intent on killing itself.. in other words, targeting itself?

pretty weird..

sleep WHAT off?

I wish they still sold something that I could sleep off..

sleep off..

usually "sleep off" works for sedatives..

no thanks.

for some the "trip" needed Thorazine to "sleep it off". No thanks..

Donahue was not a Christian at all. He was just a jerk. Maybe, "consumate liberal bigot" would be more fitting.

How do you know? Maybe he was just being honest. As in..

if you are the cat's meow here..

lets see YOU walk on water..

I dunno. Fair question, to me..

[Ham]

If cffm moves down the path of "cloning believers"......then its twi all over again.

and that is why I hope they don't accept the god forsaken example of sowers..

what do you do with a "follower" that finds more sense in the thought of reincarnation..

throw me away.. you are losing a lot here..

Hopefully the "founder" isn't singing.. I'm my own Grandpa... I'm my own grandpa...

Priceless..

[waysider]

Hopefully the "founder" isn't singing.. I'm my own Grandpa... I'm my own grandpa...

[johniam]

quote:

So out of all the points I made in the past two, three post this is the only one you could cherry pick to make some sort of counter argument

I have to "cherry pick" because there's no substance in most of your arguments.

quote:

You and I are only ambassadors. Those who share the good news. Not the ones who actually "reconcile men to God".. God already wants to reconcile, and any willing person that comes to Him is reconciled, but you and I are just there to share the news and help point the way if they willing want to go and reconcile.. If you want to call that help, reconciling, well, it's your business.

According to 2 Cor. 5, God has GIVEN us the ministry (service) of reconciliation, and God has COMMITTED unto us the word of reconciliation. We are the link between salvation and eternal death. When I was a WOW I constantly heard people say that if God wants them to believe, then He can just pop in front of them and say "Here I am, believe in me!" Not going to happen. God has given/delegated/committed reconciliation into OUR hands. The church's. Remember that song 'Stand and be counted'? God has no feet but our feet to walk among the dead. Yes, it says that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, but God has committed himself to the church. We really do have the God given right to speak God's word to others regardless of the cultural, moral obstacles in our way.

[waysider]

quote:

We are the link between salvation and eternal death.

Makes me wonder why God would put his trust in the "weakest link", VPW.

[johniam]

quote: Example, spiritual plane: we on nothing in this world its all on loan, so the Internal Revenue can argue whatever they want, God gets the last word.

Did you mean to say we OWN nothing in this world? We all have the burden of deciding what is spiritually relevant and what is not. Jesus in Matt. 17 did not get all morally superior with the Romans about whether they had the right to demand tribute money from Jesus and his disciples, he just gave them what they wanted. What do you think would happen if TWI or CFFM told the IRS "This isn't our money, it's GOD'S money!" You can't just blow off authority figures like that with your moral superiority. Yes, God gets the last word, but not only on the IRS, but on you and me also. In THIS life, we most definitely OWN things.

Edited March 9, 2011 by johniam

[waysider]

What do you think would happen if TWI or CFFM told the IRS "This isn't our money, it's GOD'S money!"

Isn't that what they did, in essence, by filing for 501( c ) status?

Edited March 9, 2011 by waysider

[geisha779]

quote:

So out of all the points I made in the past two, three post this is the only one you could cherry pick to make some sort of counter argument

I have to "cherry pick" because there's no substance in most of your arguments.

quote:

You and I are only ambassadors. Those who share the good news. Not the ones who actually "reconcile men to God".. God already wants to reconcile, and any willing person that comes to Him is reconciled, but you and I are just there to share the news and help point the way if they willing want to go and reconcile.. If you want to call that help, reconciling, well, it's your business.

According to 2 Cor. 5, God has GIVEN us the ministry (service) of reconciliation, and God has COMMITTED unto us the word of reconciliation. We are the link between salvation and eternal death. When I was a WOW I constantly heard people say that if God wants them to believe, then He can just pop in front of them and say "Here I am, believe in me!" Not going to happen. God has given/delegated/committed reconciliation into OUR hands. The church's. Remember that song 'Stand and be counted'? God has no feet but our feet to walk among the dead. Yes, it says that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, but God has committed himself to the church. We really do have the God given right to speak God's word to others regardless of the cultural, moral obstacles in our way.

The scriptures are actually theocentric, not anthropocentric. johniam you have an extreme anthropocentric theology. Where did you pick that up?

How do you just gloss over that it is God in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself with a "but"? Who was it that opened Lydia's heart...Paul? No, it was God. Who leads us into all truth? Do we? No, that is the work of the Holy Spirit. Who straightened Job out after his friends got done speaking "the word" to him? Who got Paul's attention?...."I am Jesus who you persecute."

Speaking to someone about the gospel is not the same thing as reconciling someone to God. We do not stand in the gap. There is no scriptural basis for limiting God to needing our hands and feet.

God does not pop in front of people and say believe in me here I am? What was Jesus doing here then?

What is it you are telling people anyway? Never mind, sadly, I am all too familiar with the gospel via PFAL.

Well, then again maybe you are right...when God speaks it is more a shout. He doesn't even need words! There is not a place He doesn't declare Himself. However, God can speak through a dumb a$ if He wants to.. . .. He can speak through a burning bush...

The heavens declare the glory of God;

the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

Day after day they pour forth speech;

night after night they reveal knowledge.

They have no speech, they use no words;

no sound is heard from them.

Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,

their words to the ends of the world.

God can allow people the privilege of preparing the way...He is gracious.......but, what on earth did poor God do before we were born?

You say all this and yet, you believe someone who claimed God basically popped in front of him, spoke to him and made it snow. What a joke.

Edited March 9, 2011 by geisha779

[Broken Arrow]

Ham, you wrote this in response to my saying that Phil Donahue was a "jerk".

[quote name='Ham' date='09 March 2011 - 12:33 AM' timestamp='1299648795' post='524301'

How do you know? Maybe he was just being honest. As in..

if you are the cat's meow here..

lets see YOU walk on water..

I dunno. Fair question, to me..

You are correct, I have no right to refer to Phil Donahue, or any other human being as a "jerk", or a "bigot", or any other slur.

Edited March 9, 2011 by Broken Arrow

[So_crates]

Did you mean to say we OWN nothing in this world?

No, I said we have everything on loan. Remember the come into the world naked leave naked bit?

The people who gave Saint Vic his alms were not giving alms to Saint Vic. They were giving them to move the word. Saint Vic pulled what was called misappropriation of funds, rather than using the money for Gods work, he used it for Satan's work.

Rationalize (trying to make reality fit your feelings) all you want, there's no way around it.

Nice speech about the ministry of reconciliation. Now explain to me how you reconcile people through debachery, seduction, rape and plagerism. Forked tongue, anyone?

Good point, Waysider. If you can't tell the Internal Revenue "It's God's money", then why does the internal revenue grant churches tax-exempt status.

SoCrates

Edited March 9, 2011 by So_crates

[So_crates]

quote:

So out of all the points I made in the past two, three post this is the only one you could cherry pick to make some sort of counter argument

I have to "cherry pick" because there's no substance in most of your arguments.

If my arguments had no substance, I'm sure you'd be pointing out the weaknesses and flaws. Just as you have in the ones you cherry picked. As it is, there are no weaknesses and flaws, so you have nothing to point out.

Rather than parrotting the ministry's party line, why don't you think things through? (One example of you not thinking things through is post #74 of this thread--I noticed you skipped over that point)

Also, rather than depending on the TWI for your info, think for yourself. That's what I've learned: to think for my self. That involves relying on my own sources of information and my own logic and reasoning to put the information into some kind of structure.

Rather than accusing people of slander, look at what they're saying. Sky's blue, water's wet, and facts are facts.

I'm sure your rationalizing brain tries to make my arguments without substance, but then, there are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

SoCrates

Edited March 9, 2011 by So_crates

[Twinky]

Oh for crying out loud.

Johniam, why do you hijack every thread? Why is it always about YOU? You hide behind VPW and you distract every thread. Now you have parsed a sentence of a few words to make it fit your doctrine (which is nothing to do with this thread anyway). You understand the WORDS and you understand (you think) the GRAMMAR but you DON'T UNDERSTAND THE MEANING and that pretty much applies to everything you say.

Johniam, please START YOUR OWN THREADS if you want to argue. Others ARE trying to stick to the point.

Hey, I'll help you, then others can get on with the matter in hand.

[Twinky]

Johniam, here you are:

A gift thread for you

[Ham]

We really do have the God given right to speak God's word to others regardless of the cultural, moral obstacles in our way.

So many assumptions here.

just wonder.. why do you want to convince ME? Who is trying to stop you? maybe this is the only audience you can quote that much bible?

Or is it that every time someone new comes to your "twig", they see herr doktor's books lining the shelf, and look him up on the internet?

He was less than a dirtbag..

now, CFF hasn't given me a reason to think that of them.. a few that still fawn over the remembrance of the "founder".. that gives me a sick feeling. Maybe they just don't know what he did.. maybe they are too terrified to consider it..

but as far as being a CHURCH.. they don't appear malevolent or anything..

[So_crates]

just wonder.. why do you want to convince ME? Who is trying to stop you? maybe this is the only audience you can quote that much bible?

Or is it that every time someone new comes to your "twig", they see herr doktor's books lining the shelf, and look him up on the internet?

I was wondering the same basic things, Ham. Only my way of putting it:

Why are you coming here to do your witnessing? Your preaching to the ???(whats the opposite of choir?).

Do you think we're going to have an epithany and suddenly think: "Hey, that Saint Vic he was a real stand up guy. Sure, he stole our lives. Sure, he couldn't keep his pants on. But, hey, that's our Vic, yuck, yuck. Bygones are bygones, so what, huh?"

Sorry, thanks to someone else, most of us here sampled the wares your offering. We're still trying to hard to get the bad taste out of our mouths from that time and have no interest in another sample.

SoCrates

Edited March 9, 2011 by So_crates

[Ham]

Perhaps. And perhaps.. *mr* iam. Do you have an inordinate need for "persecution"? You know.. they come to twig, see your books. Look the hoodlum up.. and they slowly back away. No real argument. So what to do.. take the "battle" to the "enemy"?

Do you really think the inhabitants of GS are a mass shelter for devil spirits, and it is your mission to "clear them out"?

There are a few problems with this notion..

Either

1. We are. And you apparently don't have the authority to bind us or silence us in vic's name.

2. We are. And the name you are using does not have any real authority..

3. You're dead wrong, There are no devils here, no "persecution" from "the enemy".

4. You are seriously deluded.

5. ...

I left the options open here..

Edited March 9, 2011 by Ham

[Broken Arrow]

So many assumptions here.

just wonder.. why do you want to convince ME? Who is trying to stop you? maybe this is the only audience you can quote that much bible?

[Broken Arrow]

I was wondering the same basic things, Ham. Only my way of putting it:

The same question can be posed to you and me. That is, why do we try to convince Johniam? None of us, I don't think are fooled as to whether anyone's going to have an epiphany. If that's what we're trying to accomplish we may as well give up. People can change their opinions, but not typically when they're being attacked and both sides have been attacking the other. Perhaps this feeds Johniam's perception of himself as the "defender of the faith" where he alone is standing against infidels in the name of all that is good. Maybe someone will turn, and if just one person turns, it will have made it all worth it. Or maybe he just feels disempowered and arguing here makes him feel important.

We have less than holy motives ourselves though Ham will probably claim he is just an observer. What benefit are we getting out of all this? We wouldn't be involved in this discourse unless we were. Why do we keep coming back with "clever" argument after "clever" argument knowing it's falling on deaf ears? I doubt that it has anything to do with caring about Johniam's well being.

[waysider]

Same reason we post on ANY thread, Pinky..... To take over The World.

Mwahaha!

[geisha779]

The same question can be posed to you and me. That is, why do we try to convince Johniam? None of us, I don't think are fooled as to whether anyone's going to have an epiphany. If that's what we're trying to accomplish we may as well give up. People can change their opinions, but not typically when they're being attacked and both sides have been attacking the other. Perhaps this feeds Johniam's perception of himself as the "defender of the faith" where he alone is standing against infidels in the name of all that is good. Maybe someone will turn, and if just one person turns, it will have made it all worth it. Or maybe he just feels disempowered and arguing here makes him feel important.

We have less than holy motives ourselves though Ham will probably claim he is just an observer. What benefit are we getting out of all this? We wouldn't be involved in this discourse unless we were. Why do we keep coming back with "clever" argument after "clever" argument knowing it's falling on deaf ears? I doubt that it has anything to do with caring about Johniam's well being.

Johniam is not the only person who reads here...and I would like to think...and have occasionally been told...well, more than once recently....that these types of discussions can be very helpful to others.

Edited March 9, 2011 by geisha779

[OldSkool]

more than once recently....that these types of discussions can be very helpful to others.

These types of threads have helped me before. And have PMd people when something they posted helped me, geisha779 recently in fact from the forgiveness thread.

[geisha779]

These types of threads have helped me before. And have PMd people when something they posted helped me, geisha779 recently in fact from the forgiveness thread.

Quite a few people have escaped after reading here. That is one of the amazing things about this place....giving others a bit of a lifeline. Letting people know there are other ways to think and even continue on in Christianity without TWI.

I imagine having a discussion with a person still somewhat dogmatic in there TWI theology is rather revealing. No, I don't imagine...I know it is.

To me, it is fascinating, and I don't judge johniam...I used to be johniam...I have empathy. Let me qualify that....I have frustrated empathy. :)

[excathedra]

i'm not sure i care one way or the other anymore

mostly i just talk if something hits me a certain way

my witnessing and undershepherding days are long gone

--

--

oh and i think offshoots are horsesheet

and i don't care too much about doctrinal bible debates -- common sense seems to be what i like

[Ham]

Quite a few people have escaped after reading here. That is one of the amazing things about this place....giving others a bit of a lifeline. Letting people know there are other ways to think and even continue on in Christianity without TWI.

I imagine having a discussion with a person still somewhat dogmatic in there TWI theology is rather revealing. No, I don't imagine...I know it is.

To me, it is fascinating, and I don't judge johniam...I used to be johniam...I have empathy. Let me qualify that....I have frustrated empathy. :)

it's the same here. I used to be johniam as well. I was obnoxious, carrying a bible.. Now, I'm just obnoxious.

I understand him. The frustration, trying to reach da world with da word..

thinking practically any other belief originated with the devil.. or devil spirits..

thinking I had *practically* all of the answers. Or had all the tools to squeeze them out of the bible..

but on topic. I find the offshoots dogma very distasteful, a poor, sour, half-baked recipe. But to me, that does not make them "bad people".. until they turn abusive and controlling like.. CES. One "crisis" after the next.. no real care for the consequences to the ordinary followers..

and others running STUPID programs.. where a devotee can be sent packing in the middle of the night, at the sole discretion of "those charged with oversight(?).."