i'm just wondering why i don't understand that "logic"
that's one reason i'm not exactly welcome on that way corps grad forum because i tried to talk about this
oh well
Because CFFM is based on VPW and his offspring, and they must sanitize him to have even an appearance of legitimacy. This way they can blame the way international's problems on Craig and Rosie then have a nice little haven for ex-wayfers that can come, be casual, and carry on Vic's legacy. From my experiences attending the fellowship that is close to me they just want some bible and others to fellowship with. Besides SOWERS I really have nothing bad to say about them except they sanitize Victor Paul Wierwille into a great man.
Do they contribute to local initiatives for homeless, to provide meals at the soup kitchen, to help fellow non-CFFM Christians? Do they support locals who have had emergencies - support in case some local carpenter was injured and unable to work; a woman whose husband had deserted her and the kids; a family where a child had been hospitalized a long way away? Do they use the funds to help at the local hospital, at the night shelter, kids' club, or anything else?
A way offshoot actually doing something?
I'd like to hear otherwise,that theyre out building hospitals, schools or curing aids or something but its not very likely from any group that still reveres Wierwille. Self centeredness and way theology go hand in hand
i'm just wondering why i don't understand that "logic"
that's one reason i'm not exactly welcome on that way corps grad forum because i tried to talk about this
oh well
That's just insane, yet all too common from what I've seen. If a victim speaks out against their abuser, people in their insanity find a way to blame the abuser. I mean, just listen to that, "You shouldn't say anything because you're hurting the children and grandchildren." No, he abused you, you're telling the truth, and that is what is hurting the children and grandchildren, not you. I hope you keep telling your story.
BTW, are SOWERS and CFFM the same thing?
Because CFFM is based on VPW and his offspring, and they must sanitize him to have even an appearance of legitimacy. This way they can blame the way international's problems on Craig and Rosie then have a nice little haven for ex-wayfers that can come, be casual, and carry on Vic's legacy. From my experiences attending the fellowship that is close to me they just want some bible and others to fellowship with. Besides SOWERS I really have nothing bad to say about them except they sanitize Victor Paul Wierwille into a great man.
If they're embracing TWI doctrine then they're drinking from the same poisonous well and trying to get others to do the same. Give it time.
That's just insane, yet all too common from what I've seen. If a victim speaks out against their abuser, people in their insanity find a way to blame the abuser. I mean, just listen to that, "You shouldn't say anything because you're hurting the children and grandchildren." No, he abused you, you're telling the truth, and that is what is hurting the children and grandchildren, not you. I hope you keep telling your story.
That is part of that whole twisted logic they espouse. In fact, that is the way an addict rationalizes things. It is never their fault ....there is always someone else to blame. Sounds good too unless you really think about it. Why hurt the children? Well, that is a big assumption with a great big assignment of blame on the wrong party. It is really devious just like an addict who wants to keep on using. Gotta rationalize it and silence those who may tell you it is bad for you.
That was really astute BA...I would have glossed over that and just been disgusted with them.
I'm not involved directly with CFFM, but I was on their CD mailing list for a long time. There was no charge for the CDs. I do remember them mentioning in their announcements special collections to help out needy families whose home was burned out and special events by their local to help the needy in their area. So I assume that they are doing things.
Other things I've noticed. They are not afraid of using materials by people with differing backgrounds. Many times I heard reference to something they learned while reading a book by ministers and authors outside of the old TWI scope. They also seem to be willing to re-evaluate and examine all of their teachings.
Two other happenings inpressed me. One was when Wayne Clapp was helping to put together their first tape class, he brought a copy of it to a small fellowship I was in to ask what the people there thought. The teaching was on the one body. Over all it was a good teaching and almost everyone there seemed to agree. When he asked me I said, it sounds bitter and angry at a certain point and it loses it focus and strays to the exact opposite of the point he was trying to make. Everyone was quiet for a second and I think I could have heard a pin drop on the carpet and then the discussion when on. Afterwards Wayne came up to and said. "Your right, that's exactly the problem with it. I need to re-record it and make that change." ... and he did.
The second was song that was recorded at the end of a teaching which praised CFFM and thanked them for turning their life around. It was a very nice song and easily caught your ear. Someone pointed out to them,I don't know who, that it sounded like praise to the ministry and the praise should be to God. I never heard the song again.
That was a while ago. I hope they are still the same.
Hey, it's cool to put CFF to the light of day, so to speak, and hear good things. As I said, other than SOWERS, and VPW, I have no qualms with them. Concerning VPW, it's not like they have pictures, statues, and such as you enter the property. I have heard him referenced in very reverential terms during teachings they have on their website. So it would seem that there is some VPW nostalgia associated with them. But none the less, we see good fruit and I think it is cool.
Perhaps I am error associating SOWERS with them? Can anyone verify the association?
Because CFFM is based on VPW and his offspring, and they must sanitize him to have even an appearance of legitimacy. This way they can blame the way international's problems on Craig and Rosie then have a nice little haven for ex-wayfers that can come, be casual, and carry on Vic's legacy. From my experiences attending the fellowship that is close to me they just want some bible and others to fellowship with. Besides SOWERS I really have nothing bad to say about them except they sanitize Victor Paul Wierwille into a great man.
Yep.......they SANITIZE wieriwille and GRAFT the self-same doctrine.
When I attended a few fellowships years ago, it had the same smell of twi.....putrid. I was left with the impression that cffm leadership took their marbles across the street and started another church.
You know, I knew Wayne, and Kevin both back in their TWI days. They actually both were pretty decent guys for the most part. And Jon N3ssle too. I think Jon got scrwd over by Okus Lecherous Rantus Prime and that W@ll@c3 clown mentioned in the recent Hirschfeld thread. Wayne was the research guy behind most of the "far out" new stuff that was taught on the 2nd PFAL / FNC class Okus taught - well, N3ssle too. Rosie Rivitus Prime absolutely hated Wayne, as she does all people in some of his categories - men, and people with an IQ above 100 who don't prostrate themselves in front of her. He got treated very heavy-handed with all the schedule BS, really ridden hard. Then he got kicked out and put on probation. So it's just natural some of these guys when they've been treated as poorly as TWI treats about 95% of their people, to pick up and go across the street and start another church.
To me, CFFM basically IS TWI, except they bill themselves as being more loving and caring. I mean, if you took all the BS garbage that TWI has been spewing in the last decade about being a "kinder, gentler ministry" and looked at it from a realistic perspective, that probably is CFFM for the most part. CFFM probably is the kinder gentler TWI. I guess it's a viable option for some, and with TWI becoming progressively more hard and stupid you may see a greater gravitation there over to CFFM. The TWI BOD made CFFM, and continue to make it viable. I hope as those guys grow they remember the lessons they learned from how they were treated and never do the same.
Is there a problem with it? Well, here you have my soapbox kicking in here, so caveats and disclaimers all out front and all that. IMO, Jesus said you can't put new wine in old wineskins. And that is THE #1 MAIN PROBLEM with all these offshoots. These guys get treated poorly, get ....ed, and their first knee-jerk reaction is to go out there on a government website and start up their own 501-c or whatever corporation. WTF? Why is that necessary? They really aren't able to detach themselves from the doctrine of TWI and move on. They repeat the past. I mean look at the fiasco with JL and STF. Those guys managed to self-destruct within 10 years or so.
IMO the main problem we have today with Christianity isn't the concepts, the teachings, the fellowships. It's what enters in when people try to make a profession out of it. 501-c regulates the flow of money. Why do you need a flow of money? One person can give a gift to another person without that. You can live Christian lives in your home, among families, in a community. When $$$ comes in, that's when you start to see motives and behavior change. You start to see man building up endless empires unto himself, organizations to "serve". And when you bring God into the mixture of all that it just is really problematic.
Take CFFM for instance. Look at their most recent newsletter. You've got Kevin and an article witnessing to a gal on a plane, helping her. Good general stuff, but does it really need to be broadcast out across the nations? I mean I don't feel the need to blog about my plane conversations. Did the people in Acts do that? Circulate newsletters writing about their great escapades in witnessing? Well - Luke recorded them, but that's a 3rd person perspective (1st in places), but it's different. I'm kind of picking on Kevin - but he's got a job to do - the ABS pays his salary, so he has to crank out an article. And one about his efforts to expand the group is pretty standard. Then in CFFM's newsletter you have all the "Zone Happenings". OK. WTF is a "Zone"? One guy writes - "Are You in the Zone? If not, let us help you get there?". I mean, is this normal Christian language? WTF is a "Zone"? Am I playing defense on basketball here? You dig a little deeper and you find out that basically the "Zones" are equivalent to TWI's "Regions". You have Zone coordinators, and State coordinators or contacts. Already, we have people behaving like clowns and focusing on and highlighting their positions within CFFM over any Christian teachings or Bible verses. Where did this start? Well, at the top of course. You have the guys who picked up shop and are relatively reasonable guys starting to "ordain" other people. And have annual planning meetings. This grew into setting up a leadership structure. When you do that in many ways it values one person over another. Especially the higher up you go. At a local "fellowship" type level, it's just a person opening their home up for meetings. So there's a limit to how big the head can get.
I mean - all these guys, they really want to live the book of Acts in our day and time? Why don't they look at it's greatest example - Paul. He basically had a craft and worked part time volunteer mostly. Sometimes people gave him money or put him up, but he didn't draw a salary. Oh but you say Jerusalem they had a leadership structure and full-time people. Yeah, they did - mostly to handle all the converts on Pentecost. However, human nature scrwd that one up too within Paul's lifetime, and those leaders got egotistical hard and legalistic. To me the lessons of the NT and Acts in general point me towards living Christianity in my home and with a small circle of friends and away from organized religion. I've had enough of God mixed in with human nature in an organized sense, and the only stomach I have recently for human nature to deal with is that of my own family. Small and contained, I can deal with it.
All right, chockfull will get off the soapbox now. .02 out.
I mean - all these guys, they really want to live the book of Acts in our day and time? Why don't they look at it's greatest example - Paul. He basically had a craft and worked part time volunteer mostly. Sometimes people gave him money or put him up, but he didn't draw a salary. Oh but you say Jerusalem they had a leadership structure and full-time people. Yeah, they did - mostly to handle all the converts on Pentecost. However, human nature scrwd that one up too within Paul's lifetime, and those leaders got egotistical hard and legalistic. To me the lessons of the NT and Acts in general point me towards living Christianity in my home and with a small circle of friends and away from organized religion.
I'm thinking that's where most religions get derailed. Once the MOG starts drawing a salary, then it's no longer about God, but about the money. The MOG no longer has to rely on God to get his needs met, he has money. And then it becomes a game of how much money can I amass.
The legalism, well that's just to keep people in their place: You have to treat every word the MOG says as the gospel truth and be sure to give your 10%--everything you don't need if you really want to be blessed--so the MOG can have his plane, motorcoach, and motorcycle to bless God's people. Sure, know anymore funny stories?
You know, I knew Wayne, and Kevin both back in their TWI days. They actually both were pretty decent guys for the most part. And Jon N3ssle too. I think Jon got scrwd over by Okus Lecherous Rantus Prime and that W@ll@c3 clown mentioned in the recent Hirschfeld thread. Wayne was the research guy behind most of the "far out" new stuff that was taught on the 2nd PFAL / FNC class Okus taught - well, N3ssle too. Rosie Rivitus Prime absolutely hated Wayne, as she does all people in some of his categories - men, and people with an IQ above 100 who don't prostrate themselves in front of her. He got treated very heavy-handed with all the schedule BS, really ridden hard. Then he got kicked out and put on probation. So it's just natural some of these guys when they've been treated as poorly as TWI treats about 95% of their people, to pick up and go across the street and start another church.
To me, CFFM basically IS TWI, except they bill themselves as being more loving and caring. I mean, if you took all the BS garbage that TWI has been spewing in the last decade about being a "kinder, gentler ministry" and looked at it from a realistic perspective, that probably is CFFM for the most part. CFFM probably is the kinder gentler TWI. I guess it's a viable option for some, and with TWI becoming progressively more hard and stupid you may see a greater gravitation there over to CFFM. The TWI BOD made CFFM, and continue to make it viable. I hope as those guys grow they remember the lessons they learned from how they were treated and never do the same.
Is there a problem with it? Well, here you have my soapbox kicking in here, so caveats and disclaimers all out front and all that. IMO, Jesus said you can't put new wine in old wineskins. And that is THE #1 MAIN PROBLEM with all these offshoots. These guys get treated poorly, get ....ed, and their first knee-jerk reaction is to go out there on a government website and start up their own 501-c or whatever corporation. WTF? Why is that necessary? They really aren't able to detach themselves from the doctrine of TWI and move on. They repeat the past. I mean look at the fiasco with JL and STF. Those guys managed to self-destruct within 10 years or so.
IMO the main problem we have today with Christianity isn't the concepts, the teachings, the fellowships. It's what enters in when people try to make a profession out of it. 501-c regulates the flow of money. Why do you need a flow of money? One person can give a gift to another person without that. You can live Christian lives in your home, among families, in a community. When $$$ comes in, that's when you start to see motives and behavior change. You start to see man building up endless empires unto himself, organizations to "serve". And when you bring God into the mixture of all that it just is really problematic.
Take CFFM for instance. Look at their most recent newsletter. You've got Kevin and an article witnessing to a gal on a plane, helping her. Good general stuff, but does it really need to be broadcast out across the nations? I mean I don't feel the need to blog about my plane conversations. Did the people in Acts do that? Circulate newsletters writing about their great escapades in witnessing? Well - Luke recorded them, but that's a 3rd person perspective (1st in places), but it's different. I'm kind of picking on Kevin - but he's got a job to do - the ABS pays his salary, so he has to crank out an article. And one about his efforts to expand the group is pretty standard. Then in CFFM's newsletter you have all the "Zone Happenings". OK. WTF is a "Zone"? One guy writes - "Are You in the Zone? If not, let us help you get there?". I mean, is this normal Christian language? WTF is a "Zone"? Am I playing defense on basketball here? You dig a little deeper and you find out that basically the "Zones" are equivalent to TWI's "Regions". You have Zone coordinators, and State coordinators or contacts. Already, we have people behaving like clowns and focusing on and highlighting their positions within CFFM over any Christian teachings or Bible verses. Where did this start? Well, at the top of course. You have the guys who picked up shop and are relatively reasonable guys starting to "ordain" other people. And have annual planning meetings. This grew into setting up a leadership structure. When you do that in many ways it values one person over another. Especially the higher up you go. At a local "fellowship" type level, it's just a person opening their home up for meetings. So there's a limit to how big the head can get.
I mean - all these guys, they really want to live the book of Acts in our day and time? Why don't they look at it's greatest example - Paul. He basically had a craft and worked part time volunteer mostly. Sometimes people gave him money or put him up, but he didn't draw a salary. Oh but you say Jerusalem they had a leadership structure and full-time people. Yeah, they did - mostly to handle all the converts on Pentecost. However, human nature scrwd that one up too within Paul's lifetime, and those leaders got egotistical hard and legalistic. To me the lessons of the NT and Acts in general point me towards living Christianity in my home and with a small circle of friends and away from organized religion. I've had enough of God mixed in with human nature in an organized sense, and the only stomach I have recently for human nature to deal with is that of my own family. Small and contained, I can deal with it.
All right, chockfull will get off the soapbox now. .02 out.
Nice post, chockfull..........
IMO....one of the main problems with CFFM is what I refer to as "colonial christianity" where money is funneled to Tipp City from "outlying colonies." Just like twi, as more $$$ is mailed to CFFM.......more leaders, more bureaucracy, more events are planned.....and the "headquarters" becomes the hub of spirituality. The activity becomes the organization and the newsletters toot their own horn. The tail starts WAGGING the dog.
Like you stated, chockfull......with more growth, cffm starts carving out zones. Does the new terminology make their structure and intentions different than twi? Hardly. The pattern repetes itself and the arrogance/elitism is difficult to suppress.
What if all distant areas became "satellite outreach hubs" and KEPT 80% of their offerings to strengthen activity/outreach in THEIR area? Sure, there is all the 501c technicalities and all.....but if there were dynamic individuals with ministries out there, wouldn't that be more fitting to the One Body concept? Does one's right elbow really need to be like-minded with his left ear.....or function more directly with his right arm?
If cffm moves down the path of "cloning believers"......then its twi all over again.
I have experience with CFFM. One book on cults called 'Youth, brainwashing, and the extremist cults' quotes a minister saying that cults are the unpaid bills of the church. This means that cults (spinoffs, offshoots, etc.) wouldn't exist if the church was taking care of people properly. That logic even applies to all Protestant denominations. They all seem to start out from a person who gets genuine revelation from God which helps those in need. Then when the money starts to roll in, things happen which the originator of the movement can't possibly control.
After having left TWI in 1994, I got a call in early 1997 saying that John Shroyer would be doing a fellowship at a home in Holland, MI, some 30 miles away from where I lived at the time, and that Kevin and Sarah Guigou would also be there. So I went to it. There were maybe 10-15 people in attendance, so JS could talk freely and openly.
In TWI he had most recently been a region leader in Florida. He had been loyal to LCM despite some red flags. Then what did it for him was the events GSC has documented in the 'Driven to suicide' article (LCM told a woman to leave her husband and the man ended up killing himself)plus LCM told the way corps that he "saved this woman from contamination". JS said he raised his voice telling LCM what he thought of all this. Must've bothered LCM somewhat because in 1995 LCM said that JS was "solid as a rock" on a SNS tape.
Then JS summed up the interim:
1)said God told him audibly to start a ministry while he was driving on a FLA highway.
2)became more and more appalled driving all over the country and hearing story after story of the LCM regime's abuse of people.
3)was in Holland that day in continuation of going where people were and seeing exactly what peoples' needs were.
It was a good fellowship overall. The following year they got the property in Tipp City. JS said the IRS was way more reasonable to deal with than he had been led to believe. By all accounts God was working with CFFM. I have no reason to believe this has not continued. I wish them the best.
quote: IMO the main problem we have today with Christianity isn't the concepts, the teachings, the fellowships. It's what enters in when people try to make a profession out of it. 501-c regulates the flow of money. Why do you need a flow of money? One person can give a gift to another person without that. You can live Christian lives in your home, among families, in a community. When $$$ comes in, that's when you start to see motives and behavior change. You start to see man building up endless empires unto himself, organizations to "serve". And when you bring God into the mixture of all that it just is really problematic.
Christians spend money like everybody else. Why the discrimination? You can live rock and roll lives in you home, families, communities, too, but money has come in there as well. If you want to see a top level touring band, you need money. I paid $99.00 per ticket so me and my wife could see the Eagles at Busch stadium last June. Super show. Really good. But there were many fingers in the pie. Busch stadium workers, promoters, parking, concessions, security, public transportation, the band members, and much much more. That's part of the price paid for everything being so global. Again, why the discrimination? Why is it OK for rock and roll people and other entertainers to make a buck, but not Christian ministries?
There is no scripture forbidding Christians to market themselves. Men and women with ministries may have to avoid certain situations, but there is a business side to any religion nowadays. Again, why shouldn't Christians be able to capitalize on that?
quote: Like you stated, chockfull......with more growth, cffm starts carving out zones. Does the new terminology make their structure and intentions different than twi? Hardly. The pattern repetes itself and the arrogance/elitism is difficult to suppress.
What if all distant areas became "satellite outreach hubs" and KEPT 80% of their offerings to strengthen activity/outreach in THEIR area? Sure, there is all the 501c technicalities and all.....but if there were dynamic individuals with ministries out there, wouldn't that be more fitting to the One Body concept? Does one's right elbow really need to be like-minded with his left ear.....or function more directly with his right arm?
If cffm moves down the path of "cloning believers"......then its twi all over again.
Just for the record, in the St. Lousi bible fellowship, which is associated with Chris Geer's ministry, 85% of ABS stays here! In 2006, when storms knocked out some people's power for 8 days in July, when it was 100 degrees every day, ABS money was used to help with motel bills for those affected. Cloning believers? Oh, the Catholic church doesn't do that? Uniforms at school? Buildings with domes and crosses on them? I guess a lot of us rock and roll fans were "cloned" when we had long hair, well, when we had HAIR!
I got to spend some time with John Shroyer in 2001ish. He was a very compassionate man. Something that is little known about John is that when people were leaving TWI, John would take them in or put them up in a hotel so that they could decompress. He would help them get to where they wanted to be with cash, transportation, support. The folks that I knew that were helped by him told me about how generous and empathetic he was. Never did he try to convince them of CFF, he just wanted to help get their lives back on track.
There is no scripture forbidding Christians to market themselves. Men and women with ministries may have to avoid certain situations, but there is a business side to any religion nowadays. Again, why shouldn't Christians be able to capitalize on that?
Don't I recall a verse of two about Christ throwing the moneychangers out of the temple?
Something about making my house a den of theives?
Once you marketing yourself, it stops being about God and starts being about you. God gave us his word freely, freely it should also be given.
ABS? That's from the heart, not because someone charges $50 for a book. Its from a feeling of thankfulness, not commerce.
Your argument about quality also holds no water. So your telling me the minister whose giving people the bread of life on the street corner is presenting a poorer quality verson of the bible than someone, say, charging $100 for a class?
If that were true, why didn't Christ charge? Why didn't the apostles? And they preached a purer form of the bible than we could ever get.
Second of all, your comparing apples and oranges. The Eagles are about entertainment, not your personal relationship with God.
And, as long as I'm at it, what happened to that give and it'll given onto you pressed down, shaken together, and running over schtick that the ministry is so good about handing out to people. What better to give then the word? Think of all the blessings they're missing out onby not giving people the class.
The real way in wass designed to be was for the ministry to teach you about God, His blessings, and your relationship with Him and as you are blessed and recieve those blessings you ABS.
Saint Vic knew not enough people would recive blessings from his line of bull (statistical probability states 1 in 10 would recieve whatever they thought was a blessing from the class), so he created a counterfiet way of getting what he should have through blessed peoples ABS. He charged for the class. Then when it got to be more about money and less about God, he emphasized ABS.
Craigmeister finished the cycle by demanding ABS--or else.
.....but if there were dynamic individuals with ministries out there, wouldn't that be more fitting to the One Body concept? Does one's right elbow really need to be like-minded with his left ear.....or function more directly with his right arm?
If cffm moves down the path of "cloning believers"......then its twi all over again.
Just for the record, in the St. Lousi bible fellowship, which is associated with Chris Geer's ministry, 85% of ABS stays here! In 2006, when storms knocked out some people's power for 8 days in July, when it was 100 degrees every day, ABS money was used to help with motel bills for those affected. Cloning believers? Oh, the Catholic church doesn't do that? Uniforms at school? Buildings with domes and crosses on them? I guess a lot of us rock and roll fans were "cloned" when we had long hair, well, when we had HAIR!
My point was NOT to compare offshoots with offshoots......or "church cloning" with "worldly cloning"....
If cffm walks down the same worn path as twi...classes, youth advances and a reverence for Dr. Wierwille.....what will be the result? Do their classes herd the people towards conformity OR a unique relationship with the lord Jesus Christ and God Almighty? Is Christ truly preached as the mediator between God and man....or is lip-service merely given?
I have no doubts that cffm leadership is sincere and comforting those who were broken and abandoned by twi. Hopefully, they've risen above putting wierwille and his "foundational principles" as the arbitrator of truth.
I continue to be amazed how many "leaders" came forward from a broken system.
I continue to be amazed how many "leaders" came forward from a broken system.
Or insist a broken system can fly.
Too many people out their have done the program and landed flat on their face. Too many people know what the Saint Vic legacy is really all about. Its going to be a little harder to fool us this time.
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chockfull
You know, I knew Wayne, and Kevin both back in their TWI days. They actually both were pretty decent guys for the most part. And Jon N3ssle too. I think Jon got scrwd over by Okus Lecherous Rantus
mstar1
A way offshoot actually doing something? I'd like to hear otherwise,that theyre out building hospitals, schools or curing aids or something but its not very likely from any group that still reveres W
Broken Arrow
That's just insane, yet all too common from what I've seen. If a victim speaks out against their abuser, people in their insanity find a way to blame the abuser. I mean, just listen to that, "You shou
excathedra
who is on the board ?
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excathedra
http://www.cffm.org/newsletters/dload/nl-03-11.pdf
i see kevin googoo wierwille wrote the cover letter to the latest newsletter
you know what someone told me recently ? that i should not post what happened to me because it hurts the children or grandchildren
i responded by asking "why don't i matter" like they do?
i'm not trying to be a big crybaby here
i'm just wondering why i don't understand that "logic"
that's one reason i'm not exactly welcome on that way corps grad forum because i tried to talk about this
oh well
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OldSkool
Because CFFM is based on VPW and his offspring, and they must sanitize him to have even an appearance of legitimacy. This way they can blame the way international's problems on Craig and Rosie then have a nice little haven for ex-wayfers that can come, be casual, and carry on Vic's legacy. From my experiences attending the fellowship that is close to me they just want some bible and others to fellowship with. Besides SOWERS I really have nothing bad to say about them except they sanitize Victor Paul Wierwille into a great man.
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waysider
Phruck 'em!
hahahahahahahaha!
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mstar1
A way offshoot actually doing something?
I'd like to hear otherwise,that theyre out building hospitals, schools or curing aids or something but its not very likely from any group that still reveres Wierwille. Self centeredness and way theology go hand in hand
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Broken Arrow
That's just insane, yet all too common from what I've seen. If a victim speaks out against their abuser, people in their insanity find a way to blame the abuser. I mean, just listen to that, "You shouldn't say anything because you're hurting the children and grandchildren." No, he abused you, you're telling the truth, and that is what is hurting the children and grandchildren, not you. I hope you keep telling your story.
BTW, are SOWERS and CFFM the same thing?
If they're embracing TWI doctrine then they're drinking from the same poisonous well and trying to get others to do the same. Give it time.
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geisha779
That is part of that whole twisted logic they espouse. In fact, that is the way an addict rationalizes things. It is never their fault ....there is always someone else to blame. Sounds good too unless you really think about it. Why hurt the children? Well, that is a big assumption with a great big assignment of blame on the wrong party. It is really devious just like an addict who wants to keep on using. Gotta rationalize it and silence those who may tell you it is bad for you.
That was really astute BA...I would have glossed over that and just been disgusted with them.
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Ham
If you don't mind me saying..
when my kid was undergoing chemo treatments..
cff chose to supply the transportation so she could at the least have a comfortable trip to Royal Oak.
The only thing I can say is.. they did their best, at the moment, to live outside of the box. This was when John was still pres.
I don't know about now..
where it comes to sowers though.. I hope we don't have to "part company"..
I don't think they officially support it.
I think it's a rogue operation.. even by offshoot standards..
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Ham
CFF doesn't seem to get a lot of flack here.. for a few good reasons..
they figured out that their "abundance" was given to them, for a reason..
other than their own egotistical, pudgy selves.
at least once. That I can document..
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Ham
Where it is seven years later.. I really can't say..
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Ham
I hope the organization hasn't aligned itself to the devil, or something like that..
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Ham
sorry, I'm supposed to be "involved". Sorry, no one really asked me..
should have asked me when you had a chance..
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Keith
I'm not involved directly with CFFM, but I was on their CD mailing list for a long time. There was no charge for the CDs. I do remember them mentioning in their announcements special collections to help out needy families whose home was burned out and special events by their local to help the needy in their area. So I assume that they are doing things.
Other things I've noticed. They are not afraid of using materials by people with differing backgrounds. Many times I heard reference to something they learned while reading a book by ministers and authors outside of the old TWI scope. They also seem to be willing to re-evaluate and examine all of their teachings.
Two other happenings inpressed me. One was when Wayne Clapp was helping to put together their first tape class, he brought a copy of it to a small fellowship I was in to ask what the people there thought. The teaching was on the one body. Over all it was a good teaching and almost everyone there seemed to agree. When he asked me I said, it sounds bitter and angry at a certain point and it loses it focus and strays to the exact opposite of the point he was trying to make. Everyone was quiet for a second and I think I could have heard a pin drop on the carpet and then the discussion when on. Afterwards Wayne came up to and said. "Your right, that's exactly the problem with it. I need to re-record it and make that change." ... and he did.
The second was song that was recorded at the end of a teaching which praised CFFM and thanked them for turning their life around. It was a very nice song and easily caught your ear. Someone pointed out to them,I don't know who, that it sounded like praise to the ministry and the praise should be to God. I never heard the song again.
That was a while ago. I hope they are still the same.
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OldSkool
Hey, it's cool to put CFF to the light of day, so to speak, and hear good things. As I said, other than SOWERS, and VPW, I have no qualms with them. Concerning VPW, it's not like they have pictures, statues, and such as you enter the property. I have heard him referenced in very reverential terms during teachings they have on their website. So it would seem that there is some VPW nostalgia associated with them. But none the less, we see good fruit and I think it is cool.
Perhaps I am error associating SOWERS with them? Can anyone verify the association?
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skyrider
Yep.......they SANITIZE wieriwille and GRAFT the self-same doctrine.
When I attended a few fellowships years ago, it had the same smell of twi.....putrid. I was left with the impression that cffm leadership took their marbles across the street and started another church.
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chockfull
You know, I knew Wayne, and Kevin both back in their TWI days. They actually both were pretty decent guys for the most part. And Jon N3ssle too. I think Jon got scrwd over by Okus Lecherous Rantus Prime and that W@ll@c3 clown mentioned in the recent Hirschfeld thread. Wayne was the research guy behind most of the "far out" new stuff that was taught on the 2nd PFAL / FNC class Okus taught - well, N3ssle too. Rosie Rivitus Prime absolutely hated Wayne, as she does all people in some of his categories - men, and people with an IQ above 100 who don't prostrate themselves in front of her. He got treated very heavy-handed with all the schedule BS, really ridden hard. Then he got kicked out and put on probation. So it's just natural some of these guys when they've been treated as poorly as TWI treats about 95% of their people, to pick up and go across the street and start another church.
To me, CFFM basically IS TWI, except they bill themselves as being more loving and caring. I mean, if you took all the BS garbage that TWI has been spewing in the last decade about being a "kinder, gentler ministry" and looked at it from a realistic perspective, that probably is CFFM for the most part. CFFM probably is the kinder gentler TWI. I guess it's a viable option for some, and with TWI becoming progressively more hard and stupid you may see a greater gravitation there over to CFFM. The TWI BOD made CFFM, and continue to make it viable. I hope as those guys grow they remember the lessons they learned from how they were treated and never do the same.
Is there a problem with it? Well, here you have my soapbox kicking in here, so caveats and disclaimers all out front and all that. IMO, Jesus said you can't put new wine in old wineskins. And that is THE #1 MAIN PROBLEM with all these offshoots. These guys get treated poorly, get ....ed, and their first knee-jerk reaction is to go out there on a government website and start up their own 501-c or whatever corporation. WTF? Why is that necessary? They really aren't able to detach themselves from the doctrine of TWI and move on. They repeat the past. I mean look at the fiasco with JL and STF. Those guys managed to self-destruct within 10 years or so.
IMO the main problem we have today with Christianity isn't the concepts, the teachings, the fellowships. It's what enters in when people try to make a profession out of it. 501-c regulates the flow of money. Why do you need a flow of money? One person can give a gift to another person without that. You can live Christian lives in your home, among families, in a community. When $$$ comes in, that's when you start to see motives and behavior change. You start to see man building up endless empires unto himself, organizations to "serve". And when you bring God into the mixture of all that it just is really problematic.
Take CFFM for instance. Look at their most recent newsletter. You've got Kevin and an article witnessing to a gal on a plane, helping her. Good general stuff, but does it really need to be broadcast out across the nations? I mean I don't feel the need to blog about my plane conversations. Did the people in Acts do that? Circulate newsletters writing about their great escapades in witnessing? Well - Luke recorded them, but that's a 3rd person perspective (1st in places), but it's different. I'm kind of picking on Kevin - but he's got a job to do - the ABS pays his salary, so he has to crank out an article. And one about his efforts to expand the group is pretty standard. Then in CFFM's newsletter you have all the "Zone Happenings". OK. WTF is a "Zone"? One guy writes - "Are You in the Zone? If not, let us help you get there?". I mean, is this normal Christian language? WTF is a "Zone"? Am I playing defense on basketball here? You dig a little deeper and you find out that basically the "Zones" are equivalent to TWI's "Regions". You have Zone coordinators, and State coordinators or contacts. Already, we have people behaving like clowns and focusing on and highlighting their positions within CFFM over any Christian teachings or Bible verses. Where did this start? Well, at the top of course. You have the guys who picked up shop and are relatively reasonable guys starting to "ordain" other people. And have annual planning meetings. This grew into setting up a leadership structure. When you do that in many ways it values one person over another. Especially the higher up you go. At a local "fellowship" type level, it's just a person opening their home up for meetings. So there's a limit to how big the head can get.
I mean - all these guys, they really want to live the book of Acts in our day and time? Why don't they look at it's greatest example - Paul. He basically had a craft and worked part time volunteer mostly. Sometimes people gave him money or put him up, but he didn't draw a salary. Oh but you say Jerusalem they had a leadership structure and full-time people. Yeah, they did - mostly to handle all the converts on Pentecost. However, human nature scrwd that one up too within Paul's lifetime, and those leaders got egotistical hard and legalistic. To me the lessons of the NT and Acts in general point me towards living Christianity in my home and with a small circle of friends and away from organized religion. I've had enough of God mixed in with human nature in an organized sense, and the only stomach I have recently for human nature to deal with is that of my own family. Small and contained, I can deal with it.
All right, chockfull will get off the soapbox now. .02 out.
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OldSkool
Great post, Chock. That about sums up how I feel about "men of God" and their subsequent "organizations."
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So_crates
I'm thinking that's where most religions get derailed. Once the MOG starts drawing a salary, then it's no longer about God, but about the money. The MOG no longer has to rely on God to get his needs met, he has money. And then it becomes a game of how much money can I amass.
The legalism, well that's just to keep people in their place: You have to treat every word the MOG says as the gospel truth and be sure to give your 10%--everything you don't need if you really want to be blessed--so the MOG can have his plane, motorcoach, and motorcycle to bless God's people. Sure, know anymore funny stories?
SoCrates
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skyrider
Nice post, chockfull..........
IMO....one of the main problems with CFFM is what I refer to as "colonial christianity" where money is funneled to Tipp City from "outlying colonies." Just like twi, as more $$$ is mailed to CFFM.......more leaders, more bureaucracy, more events are planned.....and the "headquarters" becomes the hub of spirituality. The activity becomes the organization and the newsletters toot their own horn. The tail starts WAGGING the dog.
Like you stated, chockfull......with more growth, cffm starts carving out zones. Does the new terminology make their structure and intentions different than twi? Hardly. The pattern repetes itself and the arrogance/elitism is difficult to suppress.
What if all distant areas became "satellite outreach hubs" and KEPT 80% of their offerings to strengthen activity/outreach in THEIR area? Sure, there is all the 501c technicalities and all.....but if there were dynamic individuals with ministries out there, wouldn't that be more fitting to the One Body concept? Does one's right elbow really need to be like-minded with his left ear.....or function more directly with his right arm?
If cffm moves down the path of "cloning believers"......then its twi all over again.
.
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johniam
I have experience with CFFM. One book on cults called 'Youth, brainwashing, and the extremist cults' quotes a minister saying that cults are the unpaid bills of the church. This means that cults (spinoffs, offshoots, etc.) wouldn't exist if the church was taking care of people properly. That logic even applies to all Protestant denominations. They all seem to start out from a person who gets genuine revelation from God which helps those in need. Then when the money starts to roll in, things happen which the originator of the movement can't possibly control.
After having left TWI in 1994, I got a call in early 1997 saying that John Shroyer would be doing a fellowship at a home in Holland, MI, some 30 miles away from where I lived at the time, and that Kevin and Sarah Guigou would also be there. So I went to it. There were maybe 10-15 people in attendance, so JS could talk freely and openly.
In TWI he had most recently been a region leader in Florida. He had been loyal to LCM despite some red flags. Then what did it for him was the events GSC has documented in the 'Driven to suicide' article (LCM told a woman to leave her husband and the man ended up killing himself)plus LCM told the way corps that he "saved this woman from contamination". JS said he raised his voice telling LCM what he thought of all this. Must've bothered LCM somewhat because in 1995 LCM said that JS was "solid as a rock" on a SNS tape.
Then JS summed up the interim:
1)said God told him audibly to start a ministry while he was driving on a FLA highway.
2)became more and more appalled driving all over the country and hearing story after story of the LCM regime's abuse of people.
3)was in Holland that day in continuation of going where people were and seeing exactly what peoples' needs were.
It was a good fellowship overall. The following year they got the property in Tipp City. JS said the IRS was way more reasonable to deal with than he had been led to believe. By all accounts God was working with CFFM. I have no reason to believe this has not continued. I wish them the best.
quote: IMO the main problem we have today with Christianity isn't the concepts, the teachings, the fellowships. It's what enters in when people try to make a profession out of it. 501-c regulates the flow of money. Why do you need a flow of money? One person can give a gift to another person without that. You can live Christian lives in your home, among families, in a community. When $$$ comes in, that's when you start to see motives and behavior change. You start to see man building up endless empires unto himself, organizations to "serve". And when you bring God into the mixture of all that it just is really problematic.
Christians spend money like everybody else. Why the discrimination? You can live rock and roll lives in you home, families, communities, too, but money has come in there as well. If you want to see a top level touring band, you need money. I paid $99.00 per ticket so me and my wife could see the Eagles at Busch stadium last June. Super show. Really good. But there were many fingers in the pie. Busch stadium workers, promoters, parking, concessions, security, public transportation, the band members, and much much more. That's part of the price paid for everything being so global. Again, why the discrimination? Why is it OK for rock and roll people and other entertainers to make a buck, but not Christian ministries?
There is no scripture forbidding Christians to market themselves. Men and women with ministries may have to avoid certain situations, but there is a business side to any religion nowadays. Again, why shouldn't Christians be able to capitalize on that?
quote: Like you stated, chockfull......with more growth, cffm starts carving out zones. Does the new terminology make their structure and intentions different than twi? Hardly. The pattern repetes itself and the arrogance/elitism is difficult to suppress.
What if all distant areas became "satellite outreach hubs" and KEPT 80% of their offerings to strengthen activity/outreach in THEIR area? Sure, there is all the 501c technicalities and all.....but if there were dynamic individuals with ministries out there, wouldn't that be more fitting to the One Body concept? Does one's right elbow really need to be like-minded with his left ear.....or function more directly with his right arm?
If cffm moves down the path of "cloning believers"......then its twi all over again.
Just for the record, in the St. Lousi bible fellowship, which is associated with Chris Geer's ministry, 85% of ABS stays here! In 2006, when storms knocked out some people's power for 8 days in July, when it was 100 degrees every day, ABS money was used to help with motel bills for those affected. Cloning believers? Oh, the Catholic church doesn't do that? Uniforms at school? Buildings with domes and crosses on them? I guess a lot of us rock and roll fans were "cloned" when we had long hair, well, when we had HAIR!
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pawtucket
I got to spend some time with John Shroyer in 2001ish. He was a very compassionate man. Something that is little known about John is that when people were leaving TWI, John would take them in or put them up in a hotel so that they could decompress. He would help them get to where they wanted to be with cash, transportation, support. The folks that I knew that were helped by him told me about how generous and empathetic he was. Never did he try to convince them of CFF, he just wanted to help get their lives back on track.
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So_crates
Don't I recall a verse of two about Christ throwing the moneychangers out of the temple?
Something about making my house a den of theives?
Once you marketing yourself, it stops being about God and starts being about you. God gave us his word freely, freely it should also be given.
ABS? That's from the heart, not because someone charges $50 for a book. Its from a feeling of thankfulness, not commerce.
Your argument about quality also holds no water. So your telling me the minister whose giving people the bread of life on the street corner is presenting a poorer quality verson of the bible than someone, say, charging $100 for a class?
If that were true, why didn't Christ charge? Why didn't the apostles? And they preached a purer form of the bible than we could ever get.
Second of all, your comparing apples and oranges. The Eagles are about entertainment, not your personal relationship with God.
And, as long as I'm at it, what happened to that give and it'll given onto you pressed down, shaken together, and running over schtick that the ministry is so good about handing out to people. What better to give then the word? Think of all the blessings they're missing out onby not giving people the class.
The real way in wass designed to be was for the ministry to teach you about God, His blessings, and your relationship with Him and as you are blessed and recieve those blessings you ABS.
Saint Vic knew not enough people would recive blessings from his line of bull (statistical probability states 1 in 10 would recieve whatever they thought was a blessing from the class), so he created a counterfiet way of getting what he should have through blessed peoples ABS. He charged for the class. Then when it got to be more about money and less about God, he emphasized ABS.
Craigmeister finished the cycle by demanding ABS--or else.
SoCrates
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skyrider
My point was NOT to compare offshoots with offshoots......or "church cloning" with "worldly cloning"....
If cffm walks down the same worn path as twi...classes, youth advances and a reverence for Dr. Wierwille.....what will be the result? Do their classes herd the people towards conformity OR a unique relationship with the lord Jesus Christ and God Almighty? Is Christ truly preached as the mediator between God and man....or is lip-service merely given?
I have no doubts that cffm leadership is sincere and comforting those who were broken and abandoned by twi. Hopefully, they've risen above putting wierwille and his "foundational principles" as the arbitrator of truth.
I continue to be amazed how many "leaders" came forward from a broken system.
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So_crates
Or insist a broken system can fly.
Too many people out their have done the program and landed flat on their face. Too many people know what the Saint Vic legacy is really all about. Its going to be a little harder to fool us this time.
SoCrates
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