Actually, he said it in PFAL. This is a rare instance where he actually attributed a quote to someone else, in this case Rufus Mosely. He probably said it at the other events as well. I dunno Sky, a lot of Bible teachers say stuff like this. I don't think he was trying to introduce doubt or anything like that.
Actually, he said it in PFAL. This is a rare instance where he actually attributed a quote to someone else, in this case Rufus Mosely. He probably said it at the other events as well. I dunno Sky, a lot of Bible teachers say stuff like this. I don't think he was trying to introduce doubt or anything like that.
In pfal? Hmmmmm.....
Probably just one of those generic statements to attract the youth movement. Heck, we're having a good time here. C'mon join the party.....having fun here. Not churchy, or anything like it.
Well, no more doubt than you can have about any future.
I've always looked forward to the next life to come. which I don't expect to be like this life that I have now.
But in the life that I have now, I'd like it to be the best that it can be.
And I think that happens by living a Christian lifestyle as well as is possible. It opens the eyes and heart to the abundance that's available in a relationship - with God, with friends. Heart-sharing, caring, supportiveness...love. Not necessarily abundance in physical wealth.
I think it was in PFAL. I was wrong once before, you know.
yeah i'm pretty sure it was in PFAL too......geez you know you've sat through too many PFAL classes when you still have pop-up footnotes happening in your head when someone throws a quote on the table.:o
Actually, he said it in PFAL. This is a rare instance where he actually attributed a quote to someone else, in this case Rufus Mosely. He probably said it at the other events as well. I dunno Sky, a lot of Bible teachers say stuff like this. I don't think he was trying to introduce doubt or anything like that.
I think what skyrider was saying is even if....we put everything we own and have into twi now and then we find out "there is no heaven" (john lennon quote) that vpw would have the greatest time taking us for all were worth. Yeah, that's it. That's the ticket!!
Also your all right it was in Piffal! Towards the end maybe 10th session. Let me get out my Piffal book. Oops I threw that away.
I seem to remember it being in PFAL. Maybe, the fifth session? Dunno. It's probably in one of the collaterals, too. I think the essence of what he was saying was that life is more about the journey than the destination. Not an entirely bad way to look at things.....unless, of course, other people are made to suffer because of the path you take, which is what happened on the path VPW chose to travel.
5th, 10th does it matter. Since we are raising the question of did the if vp put into the phrase "even if there...so on did it put any doubt into there being any heaven, I say hell yes it did. It struck me as real odd that tmog who taught so fervently about positive confession would bring up the possibility of there being no heaven in piffal, it stunned me. It brought doubt up for me whether or not this man actually believed what he was teaching.
Interestingly enough, if you check the Bible, the Apostle Paul said by revelation that if in this life only we have hope, we are more to be pitied than all men, of all men most miserable. I believe that's in I Corinthians 15. As for me, I'm thankful there is a heaven.
If someone lives their life full of bitterness, hatred, jealousy and all kinds of basic "yech", and at the end of all things finds out there is an afterlife, "oops!". They've just wasted a lot of time, maybe even their entire life. On the other hand, if someone fills their life with good things such as compassion, love, peace, patience, and faith (as opposed to anxiety), and they come to end of all things and find out there is no God, or afterlife, what have they lost?
The point is, why should one waste their time in bitterness and doubt when there is a better way to live this life? We have absolutely nothing to lose by embracing a life of peace and oneness with God. (Sorry about the cliche)
This argument is known as, "Pascal's Wager" named after a French theologian and philosopher by the name of Blaise Pascal. I think he lived in the 1600's.
This argument is known as, "Pascal's Wager" named after a French theologian and philosopher by the name of Blaise Pascal. I think he lived in the 1600's.
I think what skyrider was saying is even if....we put everything we own and have into twi now and then we find out "there is no heaven" (john lennon quote) that vpw would have the greatest time taking us for all were worth. Yeah, that's it. That's the ticket!!
Right, that's the real world whether we want to face that or not. I don't know about you, but I never did get to the point where "I know that I know that I know." My experience is that no matter which path one chooses there is an element of the unknown and the unsure. Some, well, quite a few folks, think that "Pascal's Wager" is a statement of doubt. I don't. I think it's honest. I don't believe it's something to rest my entire faith on, but I've found it helpful.
If someone lives their life full of bitterness, hatred, jealousy and all kinds of basic "yech", and at the end of all things finds out there is an afterlife, "oops!". They've just wasted a lot of time, maybe even their entire life. On the other hand, if someone fills their life with good things such as compassion, love, peace, patience, and faith (as opposed to anxiety), and they come to end of all things and find out there is no God, or afterlife, what have they lost?
The point is, why should one waste their time in bitterness and doubt when there is a better way to live this life? We have absolutely nothing to lose by embracing a life of peace and oneness with God. (Sorry about the cliche)
This argument is known as, "Pascal's Wager" named after a French theologian and philosopher by the name of Blaise Pascal. I think he lived in the 1600's.
Seems like we might be talking past one another on this thread......
When wierwille made that statement.....the "we" was in context of living the twi-lifestyle, go to twig, sing the songs, abs faithfully, and attend their classes. Sounds good, doesn't it? Distancing ourselves from family and loved ones....distancing ourselves from society and community involvement......distancing ourselves from the world.
Of course, wierwille would think THAT is good.
He traveled around on a private motorcoach. He attended the Indianapolis 500 races and parked his coach with the corporate types. He went to the Grand Ole Opry with his way productions. He was twi's pope.....and reveled in the adulation.
While.........fawning followers drove broken and rustbucket cars to the Rock. Sleeping in crappy, rain-soaked tents.....cold showers.....and still, smiling. Naivity and youth is a beautiful thing.
IMO....Pascal's wager is something totally different than the cultworld of twi.
~~~~~~~~
"Pascal's Wager (or Pascal's Gambit) is a suggestion posed by the French philosopher, mathematician and physicist Blaise Pascal that, even though the existence of God cannot be determined through reason, a person should wager as though God exists, because living life accordingly has everything to gain, and nothing to lose...."
He traveled around on a private motorcoach. He attended the Indianapolis 500 races and parked his coach with the corporate types. He went to the Grand Ole Opry with his way productions. He was twi's pope.....and reveled in the adulation.
While.........fawning followers drove broken and rustbucket cars to the Rock. Sleeping in crappy, rain-soaked tents.....cold showers.....and still, smiling. Naivity and youth is a beautiful thing.
.......
Notice he didn't really have any peers other than those family members and a few close friends he dragged along with him. Outside of TWI almost everyone that knew of him, knew he was a phoney. He didn't attend Pastor conferences or fellowship with anyone other than his sycophants. No peers. Basically everyone was on to him outside of TWI. He had to keep reinforcing the "dream" and keep an iron grip on the kingdom. He burned all his bridges and he himself had no where else to go.
Where exactly do ex-cult leaders retire to? Florida?
I know deposed cult leaders can always go to Home Depot. That would be a great commercial for Home Depot and their diversity practices in hiring from all walks of life.
Seems like we might be talking past one another on this thread......
Okay, I see what your're saying. VP was equating TWI involvement and all its activities with the whole of Christendom. Pretty pathetic, really. Once again, he stole that idea from someone else.
I know deposed cult leaders can always go to Home Depot. That would be a great commercial for Home Depot and their diversity practices in hiring from all walks of life.
That job may end up to be among the few honorable efforts in the dude's whole life.
Life could be viewed through the filter of a "dice throw" regardless of what board game we choose. Chance is always a factor - put another way, we don't know what we don't know.
Risk has to always be factored in to any human endeavor. I've heard Christianity marketed as "the only sure thing" going. Depending on what sect and doctrine one pursues, yes I can see that case being made.
"if" implies risk - recognizing it isn't wrong or even scarey - risk recognized can be planned for.
The bible speaks of "hope" - if (lol) I factor out any failure rate the "hope" simply means by implication that which hasn't been realized yet - future, but expected.
So - example: I save a dollar a day and want to have 10 dollars in 10 days. I can say "I hope to have 10 bucks in 10 days" knowing that I will, all things being hmm equal or something and that I get a dollar a day to save and do save it, etc. There's some risk there, looking at it that way - maybe I won't get the dollar or won't save it when I do. But if I do and I save it, I'll have a stack of 10 bucks in 10 days.
If I have 10 dollars in one stack and move one buck a day into stack two, I can say "I hope to have 10 bucks in 10 days" in that stack with a very reasonable expectation that I will, in fact, have that 10 bucks in stack two in 10 days. They were already in stack one and I resolved to move them to stack two. If (I'm killn' meself) I do, they will be and yeppers, I'm going to and I did. Coffee's on me, compliments of the stacks.
The bible unfolds the future in the same way as the last example - there are certain gimme's, things which it says have been, are and will be. In that way one could say that everything, all of existence already is - viewing it from a separate outside point of reference if one could - it all exists as a single continuous event, a whole.
When say a "John" has the future revealed to him and he writes about it - what is it he's seeing, or saw? The future as it will be - or as it "is"? It hasn't happened yet, it can't really be seen from a human vantage point. To see the future in the form of an event implies that the events that have to occur for that event to occur will in fact occur. I, with some risk of "if" can move bills from one stack to another and predict the result 10 days from now - if there's no "if" involved then the outcome is predictable and reliable and can be said to be "known" and planned or. .
This doesn't mean everything, all of it including our part, is planned out or "destined" to be (that would be a separate issue involving process) - it simply means that as the past was so will be the future. It will be what it will be, we simply can't see it in the same way as we see the past or (sort of) the present.
"God' could be understood within this framework as someone where there is no "if" or risk within His decisions and actions - when God says "I will" for instance the failure rate would be zero. Were God to say "I will if" or "I will when" other things become involved. "Time" which can be a very abstract concept can be understood easier this way I think, a quality of existence as it is perceived and recognized.
Digging into it at any single point, like "now" I would say that as existence, "time" (recognition) for want of a better word, moves forward those events unfold and the future becomes what it has been said it will be....if somone had described them from that outside reference point.
If I were looking back from some future point I'd see it as a series of events that occured as they did - looking forward into the future I could see them as events moving along their stack path, not altogether separate from each other and only seen so when viewed individually.
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Broken Arrow
Actually, he said it in PFAL. This is a rare instance where he actually attributed a quote to someone else, in this case Rufus Mosely. He probably said it at the other events as well. I dunno Sky, a lot of Bible teachers say stuff like this. I don't think he was trying to introduce doubt or anything like that.
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skyrider
In pfal? Hmmmmm.....
Probably just one of those generic statements to attract the youth movement. Heck, we're having a good time here. C'mon join the party.....having fun here. Not churchy, or anything like it.
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Twinky
I never thought it particularly introduced doubt.
Well, no more doubt than you can have about any future.
I've always looked forward to the next life to come. which I don't expect to be like this life that I have now.
But in the life that I have now, I'd like it to be the best that it can be.
And I think that happens by living a Christian lifestyle as well as is possible. It opens the eyes and heart to the abundance that's available in a relationship - with God, with friends. Heart-sharing, caring, supportiveness...love. Not necessarily abundance in physical wealth.
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Broken Arrow
I think it was in PFAL. I was wrong once before, you know.
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T-Bone
yeah i'm pretty sure it was in PFAL too......geez you know you've sat through too many PFAL classes when you still have pop-up footnotes happening in your head when someone throws a quote on the table.:o
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Human without the bean
I think what skyrider was saying is even if....we put everything we own and have into twi now and then we find out "there is no heaven" (john lennon quote) that vpw would have the greatest time taking us for all were worth. Yeah, that's it. That's the ticket!!
Also your all right it was in Piffal! Towards the end maybe 10th session. Let me get out my Piffal book. Oops I threw that away.
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waysider
I seem to remember it being in PFAL. Maybe, the fifth session? Dunno. It's probably in one of the collaterals, too. I think the essence of what he was saying was that life is more about the journey than the destination. Not an entirely bad way to look at things.....unless, of course, other people are made to suffer because of the path you take, which is what happened on the path VPW chose to travel.
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Human without the bean
5th, 10th does it matter. Since we are raising the question of did the if vp put into the phrase "even if there...so on did it put any doubt into there being any heaven, I say hell yes it did. It struck me as real odd that tmog who taught so fervently about positive confession would bring up the possibility of there being no heaven in piffal, it stunned me. It brought doubt up for me whether or not this man actually believed what he was teaching.
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DogLover
Interestingly enough, if you check the Bible, the Apostle Paul said by revelation that if in this life only we have hope, we are more to be pitied than all men, of all men most miserable. I believe that's in I Corinthians 15. As for me, I'm thankful there is a heaven.
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Broken Arrow
If someone lives their life full of bitterness, hatred, jealousy and all kinds of basic "yech", and at the end of all things finds out there is an afterlife, "oops!". They've just wasted a lot of time, maybe even their entire life. On the other hand, if someone fills their life with good things such as compassion, love, peace, patience, and faith (as opposed to anxiety), and they come to end of all things and find out there is no God, or afterlife, what have they lost?
The point is, why should one waste their time in bitterness and doubt when there is a better way to live this life? We have absolutely nothing to lose by embracing a life of peace and oneness with God. (Sorry about the cliche)
This argument is known as, "Pascal's Wager" named after a French theologian and philosopher by the name of Blaise Pascal. I think he lived in the 1600's.
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Bolshevik
. . . and we're throwing dice again.
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skyrider
Yeah..........emphasis on best time going.
Kinda like...."you are the best."
See any parallels?
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Broken Arrow
Right, that's the real world whether we want to face that or not. I don't know about you, but I never did get to the point where "I know that I know that I know." My experience is that no matter which path one chooses there is an element of the unknown and the unsure. Some, well, quite a few folks, think that "Pascal's Wager" is a statement of doubt. I don't. I think it's honest. I don't believe it's something to rest my entire faith on, but I've found it helpful.
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waysider
I think that's what I meant about the journey being more important than the destination.
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excathedra
the "if" never bothered me -- it's just a way to say something -- the "fun" bothered me because it was such a big fat joke
oops not "fun" -- "the best time" lol
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skyrider
Seems like we might be talking past one another on this thread......
When wierwille made that statement.....the "we" was in context of living the twi-lifestyle, go to twig, sing the songs, abs faithfully, and attend their classes. Sounds good, doesn't it? Distancing ourselves from family and loved ones....distancing ourselves from society and community involvement......distancing ourselves from the world.
Of course, wierwille would think THAT is good.
He traveled around on a private motorcoach. He attended the Indianapolis 500 races and parked his coach with the corporate types. He went to the Grand Ole Opry with his way productions. He was twi's pope.....and reveled in the adulation.
While.........fawning followers drove broken and rustbucket cars to the Rock. Sleeping in crappy, rain-soaked tents.....cold showers.....and still, smiling. Naivity and youth is a beautiful thing.
IMO....Pascal's wager is something totally different than the cultworld of twi.
~~~~~~~~
"Pascal's Wager (or Pascal's Gambit) is a suggestion posed by the French philosopher, mathematician and physicist Blaise Pascal that, even though the existence of God cannot be determined through reason, a person should wager as though God exists, because living life accordingly has everything to gain, and nothing to lose...."
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geisha779
Notice he didn't really have any peers other than those family members and a few close friends he dragged along with him. Outside of TWI almost everyone that knew of him, knew he was a phoney. He didn't attend Pastor conferences or fellowship with anyone other than his sycophants. No peers. Basically everyone was on to him outside of TWI. He had to keep reinforcing the "dream" and keep an iron grip on the kingdom. He burned all his bridges and he himself had no where else to go.
Where exactly do ex-cult leaders retire to? Florida?
I know deposed cult leaders can always go to Home Depot. That would be a great commercial for Home Depot and their diversity practices in hiring from all walks of life.
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Broken Arrow
Okay, I see what your're saying. VP was equating TWI involvement and all its activities with the whole of Christendom. Pretty pathetic, really. Once again, he stole that idea from someone else.
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chockfull
That job may end up to be among the few honorable efforts in the dude's whole life.
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socks
Life could be viewed through the filter of a "dice throw" regardless of what board game we choose. Chance is always a factor - put another way, we don't know what we don't know.
Risk has to always be factored in to any human endeavor. I've heard Christianity marketed as "the only sure thing" going. Depending on what sect and doctrine one pursues, yes I can see that case being made.
"if" implies risk - recognizing it isn't wrong or even scarey - risk recognized can be planned for.
The bible speaks of "hope" - if (lol) I factor out any failure rate the "hope" simply means by implication that which hasn't been realized yet - future, but expected.
So - example: I save a dollar a day and want to have 10 dollars in 10 days. I can say "I hope to have 10 bucks in 10 days" knowing that I will, all things being hmm equal or something and that I get a dollar a day to save and do save it, etc. There's some risk there, looking at it that way - maybe I won't get the dollar or won't save it when I do. But if I do and I save it, I'll have a stack of 10 bucks in 10 days.
If I have 10 dollars in one stack and move one buck a day into stack two, I can say "I hope to have 10 bucks in 10 days" in that stack with a very reasonable expectation that I will, in fact, have that 10 bucks in stack two in 10 days. They were already in stack one and I resolved to move them to stack two. If (I'm killn' meself) I do, they will be and yeppers, I'm going to and I did. Coffee's on me, compliments of the stacks.
The bible unfolds the future in the same way as the last example - there are certain gimme's, things which it says have been, are and will be. In that way one could say that everything, all of existence already is - viewing it from a separate outside point of reference if one could - it all exists as a single continuous event, a whole.
When say a "John" has the future revealed to him and he writes about it - what is it he's seeing, or saw? The future as it will be - or as it "is"? It hasn't happened yet, it can't really be seen from a human vantage point. To see the future in the form of an event implies that the events that have to occur for that event to occur will in fact occur. I, with some risk of "if" can move bills from one stack to another and predict the result 10 days from now - if there's no "if" involved then the outcome is predictable and reliable and can be said to be "known" and planned or. .
This doesn't mean everything, all of it including our part, is planned out or "destined" to be (that would be a separate issue involving process) - it simply means that as the past was so will be the future. It will be what it will be, we simply can't see it in the same way as we see the past or (sort of) the present.
"God' could be understood within this framework as someone where there is no "if" or risk within His decisions and actions - when God says "I will" for instance the failure rate would be zero. Were God to say "I will if" or "I will when" other things become involved. "Time" which can be a very abstract concept can be understood easier this way I think, a quality of existence as it is perceived and recognized.
Digging into it at any single point, like "now" I would say that as existence, "time" (recognition) for want of a better word, moves forward those events unfold and the future becomes what it has been said it will be....if somone had described them from that outside reference point.
If I were looking back from some future point I'd see it as a series of events that occured as they did - looking forward into the future I could see them as events moving along their stack path, not altogether separate from each other and only seen so when viewed individually.
"If"? Or when.
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