It also appears as if his mother-in-law - Rev. Giles' wife - was up to her neck in this thing. Whether or not she knew the dealings were illegal, that I don't know.
If these are ex-Wayfers, where'd they get that much money to invest anyway?
D@ve & P@tty D3t3rs seem to have invested at least $45,000, not a huge fortune but not peanuts either.
Or maybe that kind of money is easily come by in the US.
And secondly...I do hope that the work that is described in the affidavit was better carried out than the typing in the affidavit, which contains quite a number of commonplace spelling errors. (eg weather for "whether", "principals" instead of "principles" and several other like errors). Such things make me wonder what other obvious matters have been missed.
One couple that invested were the D**ers. The wife, Patricia, is Donna Martindale's Sister.
And with this bit of information it's easy to figure the reason for the heavy handed response from Rosalie. Nothing impartial in her decision to mark and avoid folks and drop the iron fist down on those involved when it is really none of her business. Nope - nepotism rules the day with Donna and Rosalie.
If these are ex-Wayfers, where'd they get that much money to invest anyway?
D@ve & P@tty D3t3rs seem to have invested at least $45,000, not a huge fortune but not peanuts either.
Or maybe that kind of money is easily come by in the US.
Um, Paw, could it be TWI funds that were being invested? (Sorry if you already answered -- didn't want to review 8 pages of thread for this one question.)
It will be a very light sentence. As far as amount of time spent in jail or prison.
Why would this be in the victim's best interest?
If I were a victim.. and this nutcase gets twenty-four years in the big house.. I wouldn't be very happy that a portion of my tax money paid to the state of Colorado be used to house, feed, and give this character proper health care.. for twenty four years..
A far more equitable decision might be a sentence of thirty days in a jail cell with a 6 foot 9 "cell mate" named Bubba..
then it's time for probation. You know. Life in the real world.. nobody will hire him. Well, maybe wal mart.. or some such for minimum wages.. then see how he can live with his meager income after wage garnishments for restitution, and court costs..
Unless the investigation has found some assets, (unrevealed at the moment), the only hope for the victims to get restitution is for Adam to somehow become gainfully employed and make court ordered payments. Outside of that, they are pretty much limited to whatever tax write-offs they can claim due to the losses, or perhaps other law suits against some of the other principals in the case. I believe Hirschfeld's claim is he did not steal the money, he invested it poorly and it was lost in various bankrupt well endeavors. I understood his crime, which he pled guilty to, was one of misrepresenting himself and his abilities and being unlicensed to do what he was doing...fraud. Is that correct?
The Hirschfelds apparently own only a modest residence in Colorado, which is pretty much fully mortgaged, and therefore has no equity to draw against. It is in Victoria's name alone, and according to county records was purchased in late 2010. I don't expect much if any jail time, but we will see.
If these are ex-Wayfers, where'd they get that much money to invest anyway?
D@ve & P@tty D3t3rs seem to have invested at least $45,000, not a huge fortune but not peanuts either.
Or maybe that kind of money is easily come by in the US.
And secondly...I do hope that the work that is described in the affidavit was better carried out than the typing in the affidavit, which contains quite a number of commonplace spelling errors. (eg weather for "whether", "principals" instead of "principles" and several other like errors). Such things make me wonder what other obvious matters have been missed.
Actually, these aren't ex-wafers. The victims are people still with TWI for whatever that's worth. Where did they get the money? That's the saddest part of this story as it is in every scheme like this.
They get their money from various places. There are probably some people who had money. Most probably did not. It looks like one lady cashed in her retirement. I've known people in similar situations to get cash advances on credit cards or borrow money to invest in some sort of shady scheme. Typically they lose it all. TWI has a no debt policy so I don't know how many would have fallen into this category.
What is particularly saddening about this case is that Hirschfield had a ready-made trusting market in the form of TWI followers. Hirschfield was in TWI and so for that reason, and that reason alone, he had total trust. He, apparently, decided to exploit that trust and basically steal money. He says he didn't receive any money; I rather doubt that. Just for the record, Hirschfield was in no way "slick" or smart in the way he pulled this off. He plainly and simply took advantage of trusting people.
My guess is that he'll do at least 5 years of jail time, but who knows?
Adam Hirschfeld got 4 years jail time and 12 years (concurrent) probation. The dude has a restitution order of $4.6 .....MILLION. (actually it is a little less than that now, he submitted a check today for $251.000)
The judge started out with "I have been to this rodeo before" and went on to say something along the lines of (paraphrased)- "almost all these investment fraud cases start out with the 'guru' seeking money from family friends and church members. People with whom there is a shared faith. Last I looked, the bible says thou shalt not STEAL, thou shalt not LIE. Mr. Hirschfeld, you did BOTH, and even after you knew your investment plan was on the rocks, what did you do? You lied some more, you stole some more. When you had the opportunity to tell your investors that you had lost their money, you sent them false quarterly statements indicating a profit, when in fact you had lost their money and never made any for them in any month of the program. Yours is a tale of years of deceit. You owe these people $4.6 million dollars...that is a LOT of money."
The victims' statements spoken to the court were heart wrenching tales of the devastation Hirschfeld put upon his investors. Lost homes, businesses and relationships. People misled by this salesman who misrepresented his license and certifications He could have sold PFAL to the pope is the impression I got. As one said, the spiral of financial devastation they have gone through has impacted people far beyond the 100 or so investors. They almost all had thought of him as a trusted friend. A smart kid who loved God and the Word, and who wanted to help them reach their financial goals.
One said Adam had spoken of how God had blessed him so much and he was living the dream, and he wanted to help others to realize their dreams too. The problem was, he lied to them about his qualifications, and about his successes. He also told them he would not make anything except a percentage of their profits. It turns out according to the prosecutor that he and Tori got a little over $1 million from it, even though no investor made a dime, so there was another of Adam's lies.
The prevailing sense I got was that most thought Hirschfeld did not start out to steal, but his pride or whatever prevented him from facing up to the people whose money he had lost. Being "caught in the headlights" was mentioned a couple of times. Instead of informing his victims that things were not going as planned, (a risk many acknowledged they knew was possible), he told them things were going great and they were making often 8% a month. He coaxed more into the web of deceit, and urged some of the initial ones to invest more, quitting their jobs so they could tap into their 401(k)s. There were some horrid stories told today.
Speaking on behalf of Adam Hirschfeld were I believe his father? (I walked in after the name was given), Phyliss Giles (Tori's mother), two people from his fellowship (including the fellowship coordinator), and a guy named Gustavo Cal.... something who flew in from Wash DC., and of course his wife Victoria. They spoke of how Adam never planned to hurt anyone, how he loved God and the Word, and how he has turned over a new leaf. They pleaded to allow Adam to be on some sort of work release so he could fashion a repayment plan from his new business. They spoke of how sad it would be for his young child to be without her father. They said he was a good man and a caring husband and father.
The judge took all this into account, but seemed to rely on the probation department's report which declared Adam's business plan and its outline as to how he could make restitution was largely speculative and without hard evidence to point to its likely success. They had written that it seemed like Adam's new business plan was much too similar to the old one which bilked a hundred people out of their retirement funds, savings, their kid's college funds and their homes. They were concerned that following it was too likely to yield a whole new crop of victims.
Adam may not serve the full 4 years, with time off for good behavior and with some credits for turning himself in and pleading guilty.
I'm surprised that they were that lenient on jail time considering the nation's low tolerance for this type of crime right now. With people struggling and the Bernie Madoff thing, people want to see guys like this rot. But, the financial restitution here is an incredible sum...literally a debt he may never be able to repay...this will follow him for the rest of his life.
Twinky, Ch@r1ie M@nd4y mentioned in that article was my former BC back in 1975. He left TWI that year along with one of the female wow family coordinators. Big scandal!
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
18
30
17
34
Popular Days
Mar 8
40
Mar 7
21
Mar 1
18
Mar 6
13
Top Posters In This Topic
pawtucket 18 posts
Ham 30 posts
waysider 17 posts
OldSkool 34 posts
Popular Days
Mar 8 2011
40 posts
Mar 7 2011
21 posts
Mar 1 2011
18 posts
Mar 6 2011
13 posts
Popular Posts
pawtucket
What does it have to do with TWI? Wayfers in Colorado have been interviewed and put on probation (Mark and Avoid), if they knew anything about this investment scheme. Now why would twi do that?
So_crates
The little elf--like most nuns she's five foot nothing--that keeps thumping the back of my head with a ruler and says "That makes no sense." I've tried to tell her "it makes perfect sense, your not k
Kathy Niclaus
Well well well. The topic of Hirschfeld came to mind earlier today after an acrimonious exchange with a former WC17 member and Gunnison staffer on someone's FB wall. Upon reviewing the vitriolic ex- W
pawtucket
One couple that invested were the D**ers. The wife, Patricia, is Donna Martindale's Sister.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
It also appears as if his mother-in-law - Rev. Giles' wife - was up to her neck in this thing. Whether or not she knew the dealings were illegal, that I don't know.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pawtucket
Their is only one degree of separation between investors and New Knoxville.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
If these are ex-Wayfers, where'd they get that much money to invest anyway?
D@ve & P@tty D3t3rs seem to have invested at least $45,000, not a huge fortune but not peanuts either.
Or maybe that kind of money is easily come by in the US.
And secondly...I do hope that the work that is described in the affidavit was better carried out than the typing in the affidavit, which contains quite a number of commonplace spelling errors. (eg weather for "whether", "principals" instead of "principles" and several other like errors). Such things make me wonder what other obvious matters have been missed.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
I wonder what the hirschfeld "twig" was like. Were they coordinators, or merely "participants"?
I would bet they got the chief seats at the feasts..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
And with this bit of information it's easy to figure the reason for the heavy handed response from Rosalie. Nothing impartial in her decision to mark and avoid folks and drop the iron fist down on those involved when it is really none of her business. Nope - nepotism rules the day with Donna and Rosalie.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sudo
Someone was marked and avoided? I thought that was old wineskin... didn't happen now-a-days in the kinder gentler TWI.
sudo
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Nah, they still practice M&A. They just do it quietly now.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
Um, Paw, could it be TWI funds that were being invested? (Sorry if you already answered -- didn't want to review 8 pages of thread for this one question.)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pawtucket
There isn't any evidence of that, Shaz.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pawtucket
According to the Court Calendar, Hirschfeld is scheduled to be sentenced this Wednesday, June 1st.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Any predictions of the outcome?
*The Squirrel puts on Swami Hat*
It will be a very light sentence. As far as amount of time spent in jail or prison.
Why would this be in the victim's best interest?
If I were a victim.. and this nutcase gets twenty-four years in the big house.. I wouldn't be very happy that a portion of my tax money paid to the state of Colorado be used to house, feed, and give this character proper health care.. for twenty four years..
A far more equitable decision might be a sentence of thirty days in a jail cell with a 6 foot 9 "cell mate" named Bubba..
then it's time for probation. You know. Life in the real world.. nobody will hire him. Well, maybe wal mart.. or some such for minimum wages.. then see how he can live with his meager income after wage garnishments for restitution, and court costs..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
HAPe4me
Unless the investigation has found some assets, (unrevealed at the moment), the only hope for the victims to get restitution is for Adam to somehow become gainfully employed and make court ordered payments. Outside of that, they are pretty much limited to whatever tax write-offs they can claim due to the losses, or perhaps other law suits against some of the other principals in the case. I believe Hirschfeld's claim is he did not steal the money, he invested it poorly and it was lost in various bankrupt well endeavors. I understood his crime, which he pled guilty to, was one of misrepresenting himself and his abilities and being unlicensed to do what he was doing...fraud. Is that correct?
The Hirschfelds apparently own only a modest residence in Colorado, which is pretty much fully mortgaged, and therefore has no equity to draw against. It is in Victoria's name alone, and according to county records was purchased in late 2010. I don't expect much if any jail time, but we will see.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Broken Arrow
Actually, these aren't ex-wafers. The victims are people still with TWI for whatever that's worth. Where did they get the money? That's the saddest part of this story as it is in every scheme like this.
They get their money from various places. There are probably some people who had money. Most probably did not. It looks like one lady cashed in her retirement. I've known people in similar situations to get cash advances on credit cards or borrow money to invest in some sort of shady scheme. Typically they lose it all. TWI has a no debt policy so I don't know how many would have fallen into this category.
What is particularly saddening about this case is that Hirschfield had a ready-made trusting market in the form of TWI followers. Hirschfield was in TWI and so for that reason, and that reason alone, he had total trust. He, apparently, decided to exploit that trust and basically steal money. He says he didn't receive any money; I rather doubt that. Just for the record, Hirschfield was in no way "slick" or smart in the way he pulled this off. He plainly and simply took advantage of trusting people.
My guess is that he'll do at least 5 years of jail time, but who knows?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pawtucket
Our first GSC Reporter will be reporting on the sentencing of Hirschfeld in Denver today. Blurb on the front page.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Wow! They nailed him pretty good. Wonder where he will get the funds for restitution.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
HAPe4me
Adam Hirschfeld got 4 years jail time and 12 years (concurrent) probation. The dude has a restitution order of $4.6 .....MILLION. (actually it is a little less than that now, he submitted a check today for $251.000)
The judge started out with "I have been to this rodeo before" and went on to say something along the lines of (paraphrased)- "almost all these investment fraud cases start out with the 'guru' seeking money from family friends and church members. People with whom there is a shared faith. Last I looked, the bible says thou shalt not STEAL, thou shalt not LIE. Mr. Hirschfeld, you did BOTH, and even after you knew your investment plan was on the rocks, what did you do? You lied some more, you stole some more. When you had the opportunity to tell your investors that you had lost their money, you sent them false quarterly statements indicating a profit, when in fact you had lost their money and never made any for them in any month of the program. Yours is a tale of years of deceit. You owe these people $4.6 million dollars...that is a LOT of money."
The victims' statements spoken to the court were heart wrenching tales of the devastation Hirschfeld put upon his investors. Lost homes, businesses and relationships. People misled by this salesman who misrepresented his license and certifications He could have sold PFAL to the pope is the impression I got. As one said, the spiral of financial devastation they have gone through has impacted people far beyond the 100 or so investors. They almost all had thought of him as a trusted friend. A smart kid who loved God and the Word, and who wanted to help them reach their financial goals.
One said Adam had spoken of how God had blessed him so much and he was living the dream, and he wanted to help others to realize their dreams too. The problem was, he lied to them about his qualifications, and about his successes. He also told them he would not make anything except a percentage of their profits. It turns out according to the prosecutor that he and Tori got a little over $1 million from it, even though no investor made a dime, so there was another of Adam's lies.
The prevailing sense I got was that most thought Hirschfeld did not start out to steal, but his pride or whatever prevented him from facing up to the people whose money he had lost. Being "caught in the headlights" was mentioned a couple of times. Instead of informing his victims that things were not going as planned, (a risk many acknowledged they knew was possible), he told them things were going great and they were making often 8% a month. He coaxed more into the web of deceit, and urged some of the initial ones to invest more, quitting their jobs so they could tap into their 401(k)s. There were some horrid stories told today.
Speaking on behalf of Adam Hirschfeld were I believe his father? (I walked in after the name was given), Phyliss Giles (Tori's mother), two people from his fellowship (including the fellowship coordinator), and a guy named Gustavo Cal.... something who flew in from Wash DC., and of course his wife Victoria. They spoke of how Adam never planned to hurt anyone, how he loved God and the Word, and how he has turned over a new leaf. They pleaded to allow Adam to be on some sort of work release so he could fashion a repayment plan from his new business. They spoke of how sad it would be for his young child to be without her father. They said he was a good man and a caring husband and father.
The judge took all this into account, but seemed to rely on the probation department's report which declared Adam's business plan and its outline as to how he could make restitution was largely speculative and without hard evidence to point to its likely success. They had written that it seemed like Adam's new business plan was much too similar to the old one which bilked a hundred people out of their retirement funds, savings, their kid's college funds and their homes. They were concerned that following it was too likely to yield a whole new crop of victims.
Adam may not serve the full 4 years, with time off for good behavior and with some credits for turning himself in and pleading guilty.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
hedgehogfrenzy
I'm surprised that they were that lenient on jail time considering the nation's low tolerance for this type of crime right now. With people struggling and the Bernie Madoff thing, people want to see guys like this rot. But, the financial restitution here is an incredible sum...literally a debt he may never be able to repay...this will follow him for the rest of his life.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
I wonder if "leadership" held him up as some kind of example of the "more than abundant life.."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
fair question, isn't it, rozilla..
maybe that's why a whole state got it's greasespot "foot" kicked..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Must be something in the Colorado water.
I was struck by the resemblance between Hirschfeld's get-rich-quick scheme and this one reported by johnj on his anti-Way website:
(Click here:) "Ex-Way Leader Convicted of Crimes Committed While in TWI" -- Articles from the Denver Post on Rick Panyard's adultery and conviction on fraud-related crimes.
Haven't seen accusations of Hirschfeld having a string of women...but the apple doesn't fall far from the tree...
Edited by TwinkyLink to comment
Share on other sites
OperaBuff
Twinky, Ch@r1ie M@nd4y mentioned in that article was my former BC back in 1975. He left TWI that year along with one of the female wow family coordinators. Big scandal!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
I remember Charley from my early days in Cleveland. His dad was always telling us that The Way was a scam.
Why, oh, why didn't I listen?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
I dunno. Everything is a scam.. just some more self-serving than others.. we just chose badly..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.