Bad Taste in Advertising

[socks]

"There were. They were watching us at least since pfal '77, which happened before Jonestown. They watched us at LEAD HQ. They did think we were going to start attacking places with guns. I guess we weren't that kind of cult. Beliefs are one thing; terrorism is quite another. "

So yeah, I'd like to know what kind of documentation there was or is or could be or might be that would substantiate that claim.

Mind you I'm not a rank unbeliever, just a 1/2 stank inquirer. I would like to know who started this claim if anyone does know or where they first heard it - johniam, you sound like you heard it somewhere - mind sharing where?

I was in and around the Way and the Way Nash from since the 3rd aeon and through to the start of the 5th Tri-Wars epoch, transitionally speaking and I don't remember ever hearing about FBI agents or their operatives being anywhere like the Way's properties or activities.

Apparently they were - anyone have any eye's on viewings? Reliable second-hand so and so told you? Say on, please.

VPW drank the 'Buie - today I'd call it mildly buzzed. I don't agree with the claim here that's been made over the years that he was an alcoholic, to me that's ridiculous and counters my own experience with him. He drank the Liquor of Locusts, Drambuie and liked it - I've had it a few times over the years, stuff tastes like old cough syrup a bee pee d in, I mean, it's not good. Rusty Nail - not so bad but straight - nasty. So yeah - if he'd had a drink or two or three, you could smell it, no way you couldn't. He didn't ever hide it that I recall, or at least that wasn't my impression of his drinking habits.

I don't like to drink all that much and only under certain circumstances - the overall effect it has doesn't lend itself to having sharp mental acuity or judgment - and yeah I'm a real buzz kill on that, cus I see that most people when they drink even some, a little, just a couple, socially, no-biggie-style drinking......they really don't see that in themselves. Most of the time it's not an issue, people havin' fun. In VPW's case he probably should have drank less but I don't think he drank more than most people I've known over the years - but again I think most people that do drink at all drink too much and more than they should.

this isn't off topic by the way IMO cuz NOTHING tastes worse then Drambuie. Take a pile of turtle dung, mix it with week old grapefruit juice, add a few sprigs of mint and a dash of regurgitated licorice then let it sit in the sun for two days - stir well and pour........that would taste better I'm sure.

[So_crates]

the time we had to wade in knee deep, leach infested creek waters to remove any stones that might make the creek appear disorganized.

So let me see if I understand this correctly: God (who created the creek) didn't create it organized enough?

SoCrates

[johniam]

quote: So yeah, I'd like to know what kind of documentation there was or is or could be or might be that would substantiate that claim.

Mind you I'm not a rank unbeliever, just a 1/2 stank inquirer. I would like to know who started this claim if anyone does know or where they first heard it - johniam, you sound like you heard it somewhere - mind sharing where?

Don't wanna name names, but yeah, I heard it from people I respect. Most of what I heard was from people back in the late 70s including one WC Branch leader (don't laugh too loud), that we were followed and watched occasionally. The part about LEAD HQ was recent, that they even knew where FBI agents actually hid to watch us. If they were looking for guns, then that would explain why no arrests were made, but we all KNOW that twi was on 60 minutes and we got all sorts of bad lying publicity in the media, ESPECIALLY after Jonestown. Why is it a hard saying that the lying publicity was given the benefit of the doubt by some in authority?

BTW that aforementioned WC Branch leader? He married a woman who was targetted by Ted Patrick himself. Patrick was seen on her street late in the 78/79 ministry year. I believe that was also the time period that Monte Pelto was kidnapped. FBI sure didn't do anything to stop THAT kind of activity. Hmm.

[So_crates]

Most of what I heard was from people back in the late 70s including one WC Branch leader (don't laugh too loud), that we were followed and watched occasionally.

Not doubting you, doubting your source. Looking at it from a reasoning point of view, how was following your branch leader or watching from a select spot in LEAD supposed to lead them to illegal guns.

Note: I said illegal. If lead had legal rifles, there wasn't much they could do about it.

SoCrates

[Broken Arrow]

He married a woman who was targetted by Ted Patrick himself. Patrick was seen on her street late in the 78/79 ministry year. I believe that was also the time period that Monte Pelto was kidnapped. FBI sure didn't do anything to stop THAT kind of activity. Hmm.

Ted Patrick, as you know, didn't work for the FBI. He was a "hired gun" so to speak. He'd kidnap and brainwash your children for a fee.

My point is, Wierwille made the claim and offered no substantiation. Maybe there were agents, I dunno. I would be disappointed if the FBI or some federal agency didn't at least give TWI a look see. Wierwille didn't know either, he was grandstanding, making himself look important.

The ironic thing is is that in Karl Kahler's book, The Cult that Snapped, he showed where there really was an ammo dump at TWI at one time. Of course, one has to evaluate the creditility of his source as well.

[Broken Arrow]

Another thing. Just as a rule of thumb, if you're ever involved with a group of people that actually think they can square off with the U.S. government in an armed conflict, run like Hell.

Edited March 5, 2011 by Broken Arrow

[waysider]

I saw all sorts of these theories and reports around the time of the bicentennial. In fact, the now defunct Liberty Lobby was notoriously active in constructing and disseminating such theories. Wierwille, you may or may not know, had direct ties to Liberty Lobby. A lot of the conspiracy ideas that Wierwille lead us believe came to him by revelation actually came from The Spotlight, Liberty Lobby's newsletter. Never saw any proof that those things Wierwille was promoting were true, though. Still not seeing any, for that matter.

Edited March 5, 2011 by waysider

[So_crates]

I saw all sorts of these theories and reports around the time of the bicentennial. In fact, the now defunct Liberty Lobby was notoriously active in constructing and disseminating such theories. Wierwille, you may or may not know, had direct ties to Liberty Lobby. A lot of the conspiracy ideas that Wierwille lead us believe came to him by revelation actually came from The Spotlight, Liberty Lobby's newsletter. Never saw any proof that those things Wierwille was promoting were true, though. Still not seeing any, for that matter.

Hmmmm. Revelations from God? Liberty Lobby? God must work for the Liberty Lobby. :)

SoCrates

Edited March 5, 2011 by So_crates

[waysider]

To be more clear about this.....Wierwille presented a variety of conspiracy-type theories and, though I don't think he ever actually said he got them via revelation, he implied that he did.... and let people believe his implications. There were some who knew of his connection to Liberty Lobby, but, the vast majority of people had no idea until decades after the fact.

[So_crates]

To be more clear about this.....Wierwille presented a variety of conspiracy-type theories and, though I don't think he ever actually said he got them via revelation, he implied that he did.... and let people believe his implications. There were some who knew of his connection to Liberty Lobby, but, the vast majority of people had no idea until decades after the fact.

Okay, God doesn't work for the Liberty Lobby.

SoCrates

[socks]

"Why is it a hard saying that the lying publicity was given the benefit of the doubt by some in authority?"

The FBI? I guess because it wouldn't take much intelligence to see that the Way was not an organized threat. I don't doubt that they might have shown up for a time based on some of the activities like the out door stuff but I have never heard from anyone I'd consider reliable that they did. And I'd have to assume they'd have quickly realized from their observation that the average Wayfer would prefer to talk your ear off about the bible, as opposed to shoot it off.

Lots of posturing but in my experience not a lot of Wayfers who would do much more than that.

Perhaps another example of our tax dollars at work during a time when the accounts were flush enough to fund such a waste of time.

I also don't get the people who felt everything VPW sneezed at was "revelation". Some people want to believe someone else always knows better than they do, for whatever reasons.Wouldn't that be nice?

[Broken Arrow]

I saw all sorts of these theories and reports around the time of the bicentennial. In fact, the now defunct Liberty Lobby was notoriously active in constructing and disseminating such theories. Wierwille, you may or may not know, had direct ties to Liberty Lobby. A lot of the conspiracy ideas that Wierwille lead us believe came to him by revelation actually came from The Spotlight, Liberty Lobby's newsletter. Never saw any proof that those things Wierwille was promoting were true, though. Still not seeing any, for that matter.

Weren't they nazi's, or at the very least, anti-semitic? Liberty Lobby that is.

[johniam]

quote: And I'd have to assume they'd have quickly realized from their observation that the average Wayfer would prefer to talk your ear off about the bible, as opposed to shoot it off.

If they were at LEAD HQ they may have thought there was a secret place on the property where they stashed the guns, but, as you said, eventually realized "these people are just Jesus freaks; they're harmless". How'd you like to be the agent who drew that assignment? lol

[So_crates]

If they were at LEAD HQ they may have thought there was a secret place on the property where they stashed the guns, but, as you said, eventually realized "these people are just Jesus freaks; they're harmless". How'd you like to be the agent who drew that assignment? lol

I can see your point: after all, all those people who blew up abortion clinics and killed doctors who did abortions were "jesus freaks" and therefore harmless.

SoCrates

[socks]

Succulent point So_crates. If I were to compare the bombing of an abortion clinic and the people and kinds of activities the Way organized and endorsed I can see a major difference.

It's been contended over the years on GS that the Way harbored aggressive intentions, and that members and participants were in some dumbotic mental and emotional state that would have put them a blink away from picking up arms and attacking others and even themselves.

I can't deny some of the nutty anti-social behavior and tendencies, the trendiness of themes and rhetoric and posturing but nothing where anyone would or went on the attack. It just never happened. I don't know anyone that I knew then or now who would have done such a thing.

If one were to say the ground was laid for it, that the potential was always there, I just don't agree. A case can be made hooking up pieces of this and that and making an argument that sound completely plausible but if it was that plausible it would have happened, there was certainly opportunity.

[So_crates]

The point I was attempting to make was: the group a person belongs to does not preclude harmlessness or harmfulness.

Its a logical fallacy called Division Fallacy: it presumes the individual has the same qualities as the group.

This argument, when diagrammed would look something like:

Christians are harmless

X is a Christian

Therefore X is harmless

That may or may not be true. X being harmless would be contingent on a lot of other factors other than s/he being Christian.

SoCrates

[waysider]

edited by poster

Edited March 7, 2011 by waysider

[johniam]

quote: I can't deny some of the nutty anti-social behavior and tendencies, the trendiness of themes and rhetoric and posturing but nothing where anyone would or went on the attack. It just never happened. I don't know anyone that I knew then or now who would have done such a thing.

You can't just start arresting people for what they "might" do. Even the policy of having to register as a sex offender has hurt people disproportionately. Soliciting a prostitute requires those convicted to register as a sex offender, but everybody just assumes that all sex offenders are pedophiles. Nobody in twi ever blew up an abortion clinic.

[So_crates]

You can't just start arresting people for what they "might" do. Even the policy of having to register as a sex offender has hurt people disproportionately. Soliciting a prostitute requires those convicted to register as a sex offender, but everybody just assumes that all sex offenders are pedophiles. Nobody in twi ever blew up an abortion clinic.

So you don't like mark and avoid in a secular setting.

Yet you condone this type of behavior when Craigmeister did it during one of his purges. You condone this type of behavior now that RR is doing it with the recent scandal in CO.

You don't condone this type of behavior? Then why are you silent?

SoCrates

Edited March 7, 2011 by So_crates

[waysider]

If you search the threads from a couple years ago, you will find documented records of individuals who did, in fact, commit murder (of fellow believers) while on the WOW field.

You will also find records of leaders who were arrested and convicted of sex crimes. In some instances, "upper management" knew of the problems and simply moved the offenders to other locations.

Edited March 7, 2011 by waysider

[Broken Arrow]

quote: I can't deny some of the nutty anti-social behavior and tendencies, the trendiness of themes and rhetoric and posturing but nothing where anyone would or went on the attack. It just never happened. I don't know anyone that I knew then or now who would have done such a thing.

You can't just start arresting people for what they "might" do. Even the policy of having to register as a sex offender has hurt people disproportionately. Soliciting a prostitute requires those convicted to register as a sex offender, but everybody just assumes that all sex offenders are pedophiles. Nobody in twi ever blew up an abortion clinic.

Who is saying anything about arresting people, and how did sex offenders and pedophiles get into this conversation? We're talking about whether TWI had violent tendencies. Actually, we were talking about the lack of taste a restaurant showed in comparing their food to the poison kool-aid drunk in the Jonestown massacre.

[johniam]

quote:

Who is saying anything about arresting people, and how did sex offenders and pedophiles get into this conversation?

The context is arresting people for what they "might" do. Registering as a sex offender isn't arresting, but it's penalizing. It's opening a can of worms. IMO if somebody is truly a sex offender, is convicted, and doesn't respond properly when given a chance to reenter society, then they should be locked up for life.

quote:

So you don't like mark and avoid in a secular setting.

Yet you condone this type of behavior when Craigmeister did it during one of his purges. You condone this type of behavior now that RR is doing it with the recent scandal in CO.

You don't condone this type of behavior? Then why are you silent?

The 'mark and avoid' scripture of Romans 16:17,18 is about people who cause doctrinal divisions. In 1 Cor. 5 the admonition to put away that wicked person is, again, about someone with a chronic problem. It's not about penalizing people for what they "might" do.

No, I do not condone the behavior of RR or LCM in this regard.

[So_crates]

The 'mark and avoid' scripture of Romans 16:17,18 is about people who cause doctrinal divisions. In 1 Cor. 5 the admonition to put away that wicked person is, again, about someone with a chronic problem. It's not about penalizing people for what they "might" do.

No, I do not condone the behavior of RR or LCM in this regard.

It's not about what they might do... Tell that to BOWTWI and her son. Tell that to anyone involved in the gay purge (it wasn't what they were, it was what they might do when the lights go out), tell that to anyone M&Aed because they didn't ABS (how would you know whether or not they'd ABS the next time?)

Again, you don't condone it, so why are you silent?

SoCrates

Edited March 9, 2011 by So_crates