So how do you know VP was always drunk on Drambuie?
It's a silly little concept called "eye witnesses". Lots and lots of them. You may be familiar with the concept, no? Any eye witnesses regarding the F.B.I. claim?
We don't know that there weren't FBI agents on grounds either. My point is, neither did Wierwille. Even if there were government agents amongst us incognito, what was the profit (to coin a Way phrase) in shouting it from the main stage? He gave no evidence or even said how he knew. No, Wierwille was grand standing. The more he could perpetuate an "us vs. them" mentality, the greater the control he could yield.
So how do you know VP was always drunk on Drambuie?
It's a silly little concept called "eye witnesses". Lots and lots of them.
After discovering Dr. Wierwille was the perpetrator of these wrong doctrines, I studied sex outside of marriage and I confronted Dr. Wierwille around 1982. It is my opinion, that he was too drunk on Drambuie to take my confrontation of the word seriously.
Witness: It is my opinion, that he was too drunk on Drambuie to take my confrontation of the word seriously.
Attorney: Then how do you know he was drunk?
Witness: Well...
Attorney: And could you tell the difference between Drambuie and, say, Grand Marnier just from smelling his breath?
Witness: Um...
Attorney: How do you know it wasn't Listerine?
Witness: HE WAS DRUNK, OK?
Attorney: Objection, your honor, move that her remark be stricken.
Judge: Objection sustained. Did you actually see him drinking ANY alcohol?
Witness: No, sir.
Attorney: No more questions for this witness.
Judge: Witness may step down.
Most of your post is speculation: You weren't there. You don't know what she saw, smelled, or heard to reach her conclusion. So, in the spirit of speculation, let's look at an equally valid version:
[Witness testifies that she realized Saint Vic was the perpetrator of wrong doctrines and she confronted him at their next meeting in the motorcoach. She testified he was too drunk to take her confrontation on the word seriously.]
Attorney: How do you know he was drunk?
Witness: Well, for one think, when he's drunk he makes outrageous claims: like he invented fast food or the FBI was following him.
Attorney: He made that kind of claim?
Witness: (nodding) He said he wrote the companion bible.
Attorney: Were there any other indications he was inebriated?
Witness: Yes, his S's slurred. At first I thought he was sick, but then he started pawing me. Because he couldn't keep his hands off me, he chased me, stumbling around. When he finally settled down he swayed back and forth, his face was flushed and his eyes red. His breath smelled like candy cigarettes. He was drunk on his drink of choice, Drambuie, again.
Attorney: Drink of choice? Again?
Witness: Yes, he was known to slip some in his coffee when he was teaching.
Attorney: Did you see this?
Witness: Many times.
Attorney: Did others see this?
Witness: Too many to count.
Attorney: And could you tell the difference, in this case, between Drambuie and, say, Grand Marnier, just from smelling his breath?
Witness: Yes, especially when he's holding a bottle saying Drambuie on the label.
Attorney: Was that all.
Witness: No, sir. There were several empty bottles, saying Drambuie, strewn all over the motorcoach. When I finally got him to settle down and discuss the word, he downed several bottles in the course of our discussion. He even offered me one.
Attorney: No more questions for this witness.
Judge: Witness may step down.
_________________________________________________
Again, to paraphrase the Tick: And, isn't reality really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you speculate, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.
John, it's well known, among those who spent time working closely with Wierwille, that he was a very, very heavy drinker and was frequently in a state of inebriation. He was also a chain smoker. Many people who post, or have posted here, can easily substantiate that fact. In addition, if you were ever involved with preparing for a visit from Wierwille, you would probably be aware that liquor was to be provided for him during his stay, no matter how brief. Whether it was "this brand" or "that brand" is a moot point in the context of this discussion. Furthermore, the man died as a result of metastasizing cancer of the eye and liver. It is a well know medical fact that alcohol and tobacco abuse are often major contributory factors in the development of cancer.
HERE is a link that presents more information regarding Wierwille's death from cancer.
My point is that you believe what you believe and you really have no more "proof" than me.
No more proof than you? I do believe that's what I ment when I said my version had the same validity as your version.
And who says I believe his motorcoach had bottles strewn around? I don't know if his motorcoach was strewn with dead soldiers. I do however know many drunks have a habit of hiding bottles around the house.
Do I believe Werewolf was a lying, alcoholic who couldn't keep his pen out of the ministry inkwell? Yes, but I've read many of the post on this site. Oddly enough, they're different, but the same.
Werewolf always drinks Drambuie, that's why I believe the woman writing the post. Now had she said he was drunk on Jack Daniels or Boones Farm, I would have been asking why the anomaly. But as it is, even her story fits into the overall Werewolf narrative.
The facts in my rebuttle (as put in other post):
Werewolf did claim to create fast food
Werewold was paranoid about the FBI (that little tidbit came from you)
Werewold did like some Drambuie slipped in his coffee
Werewolf used his motorcoach as a place for his "affairs"
One post I read said Saint Vic was to do a phone teaching. His speech was so slurred. after the he hung up, the twig discussed Saint Vic's state of health
As I said, you should read some of the other posts on this site, you'll get a more accurate view of what a monster Werewolf was. Face it, dude, all these people aren't lying.
We don't know that there weren't FBI agents on grounds either. My point is, neither did Wierwille. Even if there were government agents amongst us incognito, what was the profit (to coin a Way phrase) in shouting it from the main stage? He gave no evidence or even said how he knew. No, Wierwille was grand standing. The more he could perpetuate an "us vs. them" mentality, the greater the control he could yield.
bold added by me
I was there at that ROA and vp did say Father told him about the agents being there. I can't give you an exact quote but it was more or less along these lines......do you really think these blankety blanks could be here without Him warning me about them?
The reason I remember it so vividly is - - it was my first ROA and I was a new PLAF grad. My eyes were wide open. The individual who recommended the class to us, guided us through our first ROA [as if we needed guiding]. There was serious emphasis and agreement on many of the things VP said.
I was there at that ROA and vp did say Father told him about the agents being there. I can't give you an exact quote but it was more or less along these lines......do you really think these blankety blanks could be here without Him warning me about them?
Like Father told him what the origonal sin was?
Then I would have to ask, what was Fathers intention of notifying him? So he could notify everyone else? To what end?
Several years ago, in Florida, my ex-fiancee got busted for selling tobacco to a minor in a police sting. She wanted to get some information from a store manager she knew. Well, while we were waiting to talk to the manager, in walks the same girl that busted her. The girl went up to the cashier and tried to buy some cigarettes. My fiancee, rushed up to the cashier and said: "Don't sell it to her she's undercover." For that little move she nearly went to jail for interfering with police business.
I would think it would be even more so on the federal level. I would think telling a crowd there were FBI agents among you would be interfering with a federal investigation.
FBI agents? Does that stand for Fat Butt Independents?
This rumor circulated faster than a Snopes report on holy water healings. Pervasive and invasive into the psyche, for sure. "It makes sense" - that kind of rationale may have served to enliven it.
Were there? Wouldn't surprise me, perhaps once or at a time of some event, etc. A lot of Wayfers loved to shoot their mouths off, embellish, put on a bad face, stuff like that. Look at Craig. That AOS jumpsuit - enough reason right there. Investigate that boy. It wouldn't surprise me but it doesn't give me a lot of respect for the capabilities of the FBI - they missed a lot and apparently never found anything worth investigating or re routing through other agencies. Guess the Way pond was really just a pond and those really were ducks.
How's the line go from the movie Jeremiah Johnson - ? "Some tribes get their greatness from how great their enemies be....".........something like that?
Course ol' Johnson was getting his hair trimmed every time he turned around for awhile there but that makes a point worth considering - having the FBI taking note makes everything more important, more dire, more urgent. "We must be doing something right - they got the Big Guns pointing at us"....
Course they are reported to take interest in things that wouldn't capture the attention of a 5 year old unless you strapped chocolate to it but...just sayin'....
Dunno....maybe it is time to get down out of these mountains, go to a city....
How's the line go from the movie Jeremiah Johnson - ? "Some tribes get their greatness from how great their enemies be....".........something like that?
Sounds like something I read once while learning the craft of writing fiction: The more heroic your hero, the more evil the villian has to be. You always want your hero to go up against an opponent just as good (in an evil sense) or greater than he is. If you look back at amny of the movies that fail, they fail because of a whimpy villain.
Saint Vic needed the evil FBI so he could contrast how holy he was.
That must be true in creating social narratives too.
Peter Gabriel sang it "And my heaven will be a big heaven, and I will walk through the front door....Big Time!"
A sense of urgency and emergency is crafted when there's a threat, an attack. Enemies make good fuel for any effort. Food chain, cycle of life stuff. Baby cubs learning to make the kill, learning what's food and what isn't.
Drama - humans seems to relish drama, the big ups and downs, the challenges, the endless hours of preparation for what - ? If nothing, we seem to want something.
When all the wars have been fought and all the bullets fired the soldier returns to till the ground and hoist his babies overhead in joy and to wonder - will I be needed again? And if I am, will I be ready? And readiness becomes the drill of the day. Ready and waiting.
Dunno. FBI? How would one know - tall guys in black suits and sunglasses? That's half they guys in the Way. What would they be looking for? They missed the good stuff, if they ever were there. Doesn't say much for them IMO, if they were. Who knows, maybe some intern 10 years from now will open a file and see pictures of people sitting on chairs in a tent and wonder....what was this all about?
The sense of urgency. Yes, we had plenty of that in fellowlaborers. Everything was always oh, so ever urgent. Like the time we had to stay up all night, cutting and laying sod for a new fire circle because the MOG was going to throw a night-owl and it had to be ready in case some great revelation was about to be dispensed from on high around the smoking embers. It just had to be done right away. Never mind that we all worked full time secular jobs through the daytime. Or the time we were called to a special work assignment to destroy all the mimeograph plates for the state newsletter. Wouldn't want the bad guys to ever find out where we lived or something. Or the time we had to wade in knee deep, leach infested creek waters to remove any stones that might make the creek appear disorganized. Then, there was the time we were called out to limb headquarters at 3 am and told the entire future of Word Over the World was in serious jeopardy because we, being so geographically close to Int. HQ, had "blown it". Of course, we weren't told how. We were only told the program was being canceled immediately. Three hours later we were given a second chance but had to resolve ourselves to do exactly as we were told. I could go on and on with more silly examples of how we we were always on red alert in case somebody mistakenly put their socks in the same drawer with their underpants. God is not a God of confusion, dontcha know?
Who knows, maybe some intern 10 years from now will open a file and see pictures of people sitting on chairs in a tent and wonder....what was this all about?
I do not believe that Father told him either. The point I was making was that I was a "witness" who heard VP say the FBI
was present on the grounds. That doesn't mean they really were there......although they could have been.
There would be many reasons why the FBI might show up at a ROA. Just to check us out might be one reason. They'd heard that many guns existed and that the Corps had rifle training (such as it was) It's not as if they weren't capable of trying to get rid of us.....remember sometime after that....Waco TX? Of course we were no Waco TX but I mentioned it just as a reminder.
If VP announced that the FBI was present and that Father told him these bad boys were around the profit to VP was...he could plant a little fear in the masses ( when people - - us - - got scared - - we NEVER tried to figure a way out....we looked to leadership to show us the way out. Yes - - we were brainwashed. And by saying that Father told him about the FBI he just made himself bigger and more reliable in everybody's eyes. He got himself a bit more power.
Hmm. Is it a coincidence that at the bottom of this page it says FBI school, campus or online. I saw a drug bust in progress in San Francisco in 1972. I was walking to this place on Market Street and there were 3 or 4 guys standing up in handcuffs next to this unmarked car. There was an FBI guy in charge. Small crowd had gathered. I had long hair at the time. So a voice asks me do you know if they were arrested for sales? Like I'm supposed to know this? I was 18. I said I don't know. That was my closest brush with the FBI.
But, there are still some who say things like, "Gosh, wasn't it swell,fellas?"
Your post reminded me of the last lines of "Catcher in the Rye"...
If you want to know the truth, I don't know what I think about it. I'm sorry I told so many people about it. About all I know is, I sort of miss everybody I told about. Even old Stradlater and Ackley, for instance. I think I even miss that goddam Maurice. It's funny. Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody.
People tend to look back at the "good ol' days" fondly, even if they weren't so good.
Hmm. Is it a coincidence that at the bottom of this page it says FBI school, campus or online. I saw a drug bust in progress in San Francisco in 1972. I was walking to this place on Market Street and there were 3 or 4 guys standing up in handcuffs next to this unmarked car. There was an FBI guy in charge. Small crowd had gathered. I had long hair at the time. So a voice asks me do you know if they were arrested for sales? Like I'm supposed to know this? I was 18. I said I don't know. That was my closest brush with the FBI.
As I review this, the bottom of the page has an advertisement for nanny services, and another for housecleaning services. Coincidence?
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johniam
So how do you know VP was always drunk on Drambuie?
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waysider
It's a silly little concept called "eye witnesses". Lots and lots of them. You may be familiar with the concept, no? Any eye witnesses regarding the F.B.I. claim?
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Broken Arrow
We don't know that there weren't FBI agents on grounds either. My point is, neither did Wierwille. Even if there were government agents amongst us incognito, what was the profit (to coin a Way phrase) in shouting it from the main stage? He gave no evidence or even said how he knew. No, Wierwille was grand standing. The more he could perpetuate an "us vs. them" mentality, the greater the control he could yield.
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So_crates
(source)
Here's one eyewitness. I'm sure there are more.
SoCrates
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johniam
Witness: It is my opinion, that he was too drunk on Drambuie to take my confrontation of the word seriously.
Attorney: Did you give him a breathalizer examination?
Witness: No.
Attorney: Then how do you know he was drunk?
Witness: Well...
Attorney: And could you tell the difference between Drambuie and, say, Grand Marnier just from smelling his breath?
Witness: Um...
Attorney: How do you know it wasn't Listerine?
Witness: HE WAS DRUNK, OK?
Attorney: Objection, your honor, move that her remark be stricken.
Judge: Objection sustained. Did you actually see him drinking ANY alcohol?
Witness: No, sir.
Attorney: No more questions for this witness.
Judge: Witness may step down.
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So_crates
Most of your post is speculation: You weren't there. You don't know what she saw, smelled, or heard to reach her conclusion. So, in the spirit of speculation, let's look at an equally valid version:
[Witness testifies that she realized Saint Vic was the perpetrator of wrong doctrines and she confronted him at their next meeting in the motorcoach. She testified he was too drunk to take her confrontation on the word seriously.]
Attorney: How do you know he was drunk?
Witness: Well, for one think, when he's drunk he makes outrageous claims: like he invented fast food or the FBI was following him.
Attorney: He made that kind of claim?
Witness: (nodding) He said he wrote the companion bible.
Attorney: Were there any other indications he was inebriated?
Witness: Yes, his S's slurred. At first I thought he was sick, but then he started pawing me. Because he couldn't keep his hands off me, he chased me, stumbling around. When he finally settled down he swayed back and forth, his face was flushed and his eyes red. His breath smelled like candy cigarettes. He was drunk on his drink of choice, Drambuie, again.
Attorney: Drink of choice? Again?
Witness: Yes, he was known to slip some in his coffee when he was teaching.
Attorney: Did you see this?
Witness: Many times.
Attorney: Did others see this?
Witness: Too many to count.
Attorney: And could you tell the difference, in this case, between Drambuie and, say, Grand Marnier, just from smelling his breath?
Witness: Yes, especially when he's holding a bottle saying Drambuie on the label.
Attorney: Was that all.
Witness: No, sir. There were several empty bottles, saying Drambuie, strewn all over the motorcoach. When I finally got him to settle down and discuss the word, he downed several bottles in the course of our discussion. He even offered me one.
Attorney: No more questions for this witness.
Judge: Witness may step down.
_________________________________________________
Again, to paraphrase the Tick: And, isn't reality really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you speculate, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.
SoCrates
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johniam
All over the motorcoach? Talebearer's license, I'm sure.
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So_crates
And that's the best you can do? Sad really.
And how are you so sure there weren't dead soldiers (definition) strewn all over the motorcoach?
Call it what you like, its just as valid as what you presented.
SoCrates
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johniam
My point is that you believe what you believe and you really have no more "proof" than me. There. My 3000th post. Yay!
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waysider
John, it's well known, among those who spent time working closely with Wierwille, that he was a very, very heavy drinker and was frequently in a state of inebriation. He was also a chain smoker. Many people who post, or have posted here, can easily substantiate that fact. In addition, if you were ever involved with preparing for a visit from Wierwille, you would probably be aware that liquor was to be provided for him during his stay, no matter how brief. Whether it was "this brand" or "that brand" is a moot point in the context of this discussion. Furthermore, the man died as a result of metastasizing cancer of the eye and liver. It is a well know medical fact that alcohol and tobacco abuse are often major contributory factors in the development of cancer.
HERE is a link that presents more information regarding Wierwille's death from cancer.
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So_crates
No more proof than you? I do believe that's what I ment when I said my version had the same validity as your version.
And who says I believe his motorcoach had bottles strewn around? I don't know if his motorcoach was strewn with dead soldiers. I do however know many drunks have a habit of hiding bottles around the house.
Do I believe Werewolf was a lying, alcoholic who couldn't keep his pen out of the ministry inkwell? Yes, but I've read many of the post on this site. Oddly enough, they're different, but the same.
Werewolf always drinks Drambuie, that's why I believe the woman writing the post. Now had she said he was drunk on Jack Daniels or Boones Farm, I would have been asking why the anomaly. But as it is, even her story fits into the overall Werewolf narrative.
The facts in my rebuttle (as put in other post):
Werewolf did claim to create fast food
Werewold was paranoid about the FBI (that little tidbit came from you)
Werewold did like some Drambuie slipped in his coffee
Werewolf used his motorcoach as a place for his "affairs"
One post I read said Saint Vic was to do a phone teaching. His speech was so slurred. after the he hung up, the twig discussed Saint Vic's state of health
As I said, you should read some of the other posts on this site, you'll get a more accurate view of what a monster Werewolf was. Face it, dude, all these people aren't lying.
SoCrates
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waysider
That, my friend, is where you are seriously in error.
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krys
I was there at that ROA and vp did say Father told him about the agents being there. I can't give you an exact quote but it was more or less along these lines......do you really think these blankety blanks could be here without Him warning me about them?
The reason I remember it so vividly is - - it was my first ROA and I was a new PLAF grad. My eyes were wide open. The individual who recommended the class to us, guided us through our first ROA [as if we needed guiding]. There was serious emphasis and agreement on many of the things VP said.
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So_crates
Like Father told him what the origonal sin was?
Then I would have to ask, what was Fathers intention of notifying him? So he could notify everyone else? To what end?
Several years ago, in Florida, my ex-fiancee got busted for selling tobacco to a minor in a police sting. She wanted to get some information from a store manager she knew. Well, while we were waiting to talk to the manager, in walks the same girl that busted her. The girl went up to the cashier and tried to buy some cigarettes. My fiancee, rushed up to the cashier and said: "Don't sell it to her she's undercover." For that little move she nearly went to jail for interfering with police business.
I would think it would be even more so on the federal level. I would think telling a crowd there were FBI agents among you would be interfering with a federal investigation.
Just my opinion.
SoCrates
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socks
FBI agents? Does that stand for Fat Butt Independents?
This rumor circulated faster than a Snopes report on holy water healings. Pervasive and invasive into the psyche, for sure. "It makes sense" - that kind of rationale may have served to enliven it.
Were there? Wouldn't surprise me, perhaps once or at a time of some event, etc. A lot of Wayfers loved to shoot their mouths off, embellish, put on a bad face, stuff like that. Look at Craig. That AOS jumpsuit - enough reason right there. Investigate that boy. It wouldn't surprise me but it doesn't give me a lot of respect for the capabilities of the FBI - they missed a lot and apparently never found anything worth investigating or re routing through other agencies. Guess the Way pond was really just a pond and those really were ducks.
How's the line go from the movie Jeremiah Johnson - ? "Some tribes get their greatness from how great their enemies be....".........something like that?
Course ol' Johnson was getting his hair trimmed every time he turned around for awhile there but that makes a point worth considering - having the FBI taking note makes everything more important, more dire, more urgent. "We must be doing something right - they got the Big Guns pointing at us"....
Course they are reported to take interest in things that wouldn't capture the attention of a 5 year old unless you strapped chocolate to it but...just sayin'....
Dunno....maybe it is time to get down out of these mountains, go to a city....
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So_crates
Sounds like something I read once while learning the craft of writing fiction: The more heroic your hero, the more evil the villian has to be. You always want your hero to go up against an opponent just as good (in an evil sense) or greater than he is. If you look back at amny of the movies that fail, they fail because of a whimpy villain.
Saint Vic needed the evil FBI so he could contrast how holy he was.
That must be true in creating social narratives too.
SoCrates
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socks
Sounds about right, more or less the same.
Peter Gabriel sang it "And my heaven will be a big heaven, and I will walk through the front door....Big Time!"
A sense of urgency and emergency is crafted when there's a threat, an attack. Enemies make good fuel for any effort. Food chain, cycle of life stuff. Baby cubs learning to make the kill, learning what's food and what isn't.
Drama - humans seems to relish drama, the big ups and downs, the challenges, the endless hours of preparation for what - ? If nothing, we seem to want something.
When all the wars have been fought and all the bullets fired the soldier returns to till the ground and hoist his babies overhead in joy and to wonder - will I be needed again? And if I am, will I be ready? And readiness becomes the drill of the day. Ready and waiting.
Dunno. FBI? How would one know - tall guys in black suits and sunglasses? That's half they guys in the Way. What would they be looking for? They missed the good stuff, if they ever were there. Doesn't say much for them IMO, if they were. Who knows, maybe some intern 10 years from now will open a file and see pictures of people sitting on chairs in a tent and wonder....what was this all about?
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waysider
The sense of urgency. Yes, we had plenty of that in fellowlaborers. Everything was always oh, so ever urgent. Like the time we had to stay up all night, cutting and laying sod for a new fire circle because the MOG was going to throw a night-owl and it had to be ready in case some great revelation was about to be dispensed from on high around the smoking embers. It just had to be done right away. Never mind that we all worked full time secular jobs through the daytime. Or the time we were called to a special work assignment to destroy all the mimeograph plates for the state newsletter. Wouldn't want the bad guys to ever find out where we lived or something. Or the time we had to wade in knee deep, leach infested creek waters to remove any stones that might make the creek appear disorganized. Then, there was the time we were called out to limb headquarters at 3 am and told the entire future of Word Over the World was in serious jeopardy because we, being so geographically close to Int. HQ, had "blown it". Of course, we weren't told how. We were only told the program was being canceled immediately. Three hours later we were given a second chance but had to resolve ourselves to do exactly as we were told. I could go on and on with more silly examples of how we we were always on red alert in case somebody mistakenly put their socks in the same drawer with their underpants. God is not a God of confusion, dontcha know?
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Broken Arrow
Some of us do that now.
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waysider
Yes, some wonder what it was all about.
But, there are still some who say things like, "Gosh, wasn't it swell,fellas?"
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krys
I do not believe that Father told him either. The point I was making was that I was a "witness" who heard VP say the FBI
was present on the grounds. That doesn't mean they really were there......although they could have been.
There would be many reasons why the FBI might show up at a ROA. Just to check us out might be one reason. They'd heard that many guns existed and that the Corps had rifle training (such as it was) It's not as if they weren't capable of trying to get rid of us.....remember sometime after that....Waco TX? Of course we were no Waco TX but I mentioned it just as a reminder.
If VP announced that the FBI was present and that Father told him these bad boys were around the profit to VP was...he could plant a little fear in the masses ( when people - - us - - got scared - - we NEVER tried to figure a way out....we looked to leadership to show us the way out. Yes - - we were brainwashed. And by saying that Father told him about the FBI he just made himself bigger and more reliable in everybody's eyes. He got himself a bit more power.
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johniam
Hmm. Is it a coincidence that at the bottom of this page it says FBI school, campus or online. I saw a drug bust in progress in San Francisco in 1972. I was walking to this place on Market Street and there were 3 or 4 guys standing up in handcuffs next to this unmarked car. There was an FBI guy in charge. Small crowd had gathered. I had long hair at the time. So a voice asks me do you know if they were arrested for sales? Like I'm supposed to know this? I was 18. I said I don't know. That was my closest brush with the FBI.
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soul searcher
Your post reminded me of the last lines of "Catcher in the Rye"...
If you want to know the truth, I don't know what I think about it. I'm sorry I told so many people about it. About all I know is, I sort of miss everybody I told about. Even old Stradlater and Ackley, for instance. I think I even miss that goddam Maurice. It's funny. Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody.
People tend to look back at the "good ol' days" fondly, even if they weren't so good.
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Broken Arrow
As I review this, the bottom of the page has an advertisement for nanny services, and another for housecleaning services. Coincidence?
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