One ex-member said the Corps' residence training was sometimes like a "bordello," with promiscuity, adultery, orgies, wife swapping, and even gang-rape.
For a certain time, it was unoffficially taught that extra-marital sex is not sinful but
could actually be protable for spiritual growth. This view was based on the old
Corinthian belief that bodily practices do not a(ff)ect the spirit of a person. Although
this was never taught publicly, it made adultery an acceptable practice, which again
made The Way more appealing for today's society than traditional churches who
clearly refused any tolerance of sexual misconduct.
These statements are confusing. That this kind of activity went on has been admitted by participants now, years later and I for one don't doubt the overall veracity of those who honestly set forth the facts as they lived them. But there's some clarity I'd like to establish on this topic:
One ex-member said the Corps' residence training was sometimes like a "bordello," with promiscuity, adultery, orgies, wife swapping, and even gang-rape.
I'm gladit came out later but sooner would have been preferable. In over 20 years in the Way and about 7 at the Way Nash in Ohio I never experienced this or saw anything like it that I would describe that way now, looking back. The ability of people to hide their activities and that of others, whether out of self-interest or fear, is something that needs to be understood in the correct context. It's not as if I or others I knew at that time were just too stupid or blind to see this - note that the ex-member is describing what they call "residence training" - it sounds like "sometimes" it was pretty much a group f-k that would be hard to miss. I do admit I never spent any length of time in Emporia, KS at the campus there but the times I was there no - it wasn't as if that's what the residence training had suddenly become, far from it.
For a certain time, it was unoffficially taught that extra-marital sex is not sinful but could actually be protable for spiritual growth.
Not in any teaching I attended or heard. I may have missed something. I've been told that VPW passed this down. He may have selected the weakest or those he felt were the most vulnerable to accept these specitic ideas.
This view was based on the old Corinthian belief that bodily practices do not a(ff)ect the spirit of a person.
I'm not sure about that - I've never heard that specific reference but it's possible. I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who can document that that was what this was based on and that that was how it was explained to them and exactly what "the old Corinthian belief" was.
Although this was never taught publicly,
True.
it made adultery an acceptable practice, which again made The Way more appealing for today's society than traditional churches who clearly refused any tolerance of sexual misconduct.
Only to those who brought it with them or had it offered to them and who wanted to accept it for whatever reasons - even on face value these ideas aren't reasonable IMO, regardless of what "scriptural" or philosohical arguments are made for them because it counters and conflicts with too much other clear scriptural and moral foundation.
I don't say this to offer any excuses for myself or to distance myself from any of it. But I think that it needs to be understood that the methods people used to hide their activities were successful because for many including myself, this was not what "being in the Way" was all about.
What I did find develop over the years was that it became more and more common to make cases for whatever it was a person chose to do that they knew was wrong, on face value, and to attempt to justify that from a biblical "principled" position, be it drug use, sex, alcohol, whatever, ie that what they "allowed" was acceptable in their circumstances and from that I'd assume that inner clique-circles of "likeminded" individuals supported each other in secret.This was happening right from the earliest years in California where I was - a lot of drug use for instance, and endless ramalama BS and navel-staring debates sprinkled with a few mis appropriated verses from the Bible carried on by those who wanted to do what they wanted to do. I finally came to the conclusion that I was lying to myself and that doing that was in direct conflict with a Christian life, dangerous and not the least problematic - illegal.
For myself, I'd stopped drug use of any kind and nearly any substantial amount of alcohol consumption before I ever went into the Way Corps in Ohio. I went from one extreme to the other. For a time then after a few years I started drinking more "socially", with others and then on my own time while on staff. It was more like an early mid-life "crisis" than anything deliberately orchestrated. Then I realized - this ain't workin' and this isn't adding anything. But others I knew throughout that period weren't all-out boozers by a long shot. Acceptable? Not really but it's my own view into those times.
I understand that we make excuses for what we do and the human tendency to find acceptance. There the roles and responsibilities of the community to help one another come into play. By creating small circles within the larger community that disconnects from the whole or that even takes over the core of the group's leadership the environment's created where chaos can reign. "Friendly chaos" is a fact of life, Deliberate and structured conflict in a community is harmful. IMO.That groups of people did things, hid them, lied about them and tried to justify them speaks for itself and the results we now can see plainly.
I don't say this to offer any excuses for myself or to distance myself from any of it. But I think that it needs to be understood that the methods people used to hide their activities were successful because for many including myself, this was not what "being in the Way" was all about.
Sometimes, I think the easiest way to explain twi and its deceptive tactics......is to equate its patterns, trappings, seduction, and money/power to the movie The Firm.
In the movie, Tom Cruise is a young, energetic lawyer who is targeted by a "little-known" law firm in Memphis. Full of excitement, he plunges into a corporate darkness where secrets lie behind every door. In "upholding" the law, he finds senior lawyers who are blurring issues, over-billing clients, smooshing with the mob, jetsetting to the Bahamas, wining and dining on the corporate account, etc....
As suspicion grows, the young lawyer is over-worked and out-played. The Firm (Way) sets a seductive trap for Tom when a young woman needs "help" on a beach. With these photos, the corporation will pressure and mold the young law grad into their system. As the conflict mounts, Tom and his wife discover that The Firm has intruded on their privacy at home. Even a senior law partner is hitting on the wife while the husband is away.
Only by applying the law and documenting evidence....is Tom able to walk away from The Firm. What lies ahead for his career, he doesn't know......but he learned that evil can be dressed up in fine suits and a corporate image.
Perhaps, my experience in The Way has some movie-equity in it. :)
I'm gladit came out later but sooner would have been preferable. In over 20 years in the Way and about 7 at the Way Nash in Ohio I never experienced this or saw anything like it that I would describe that way now, looking back. The ability of people to hide their activities and that of others, whether out of self-interest or fear, is something that needs to be understood in the correct context. It's not as if I or others I knew at that time were just too stupid or blind to see this - note that the ex-member is describing what they call "residence training" - it sounds like "sometimes" it was pretty much a group f-k that would be hard to miss. I do admit I never spent any length of time in Emporia, KS at the campus there but the times I was there no - it wasn't as if that's what the residence training had suddenly become, far from it.
I took the Advanced Class at Emporia. I wasn't there an hour before some Corps guy on a bike felt it important to comment on how I looked. . . . how nice it was to have some pretty girls around. Innocent enough I guess, but I can remember it made me uncomfortable.
I had to change my seat more than once because the guy behind me decided to give me a neck rub. One time I got into an ugly confrontation because the man/boy sitting behind me...after I asked him not to touch me...continued to paw me. When I told him firmly ......not to touch me....I remember his response....."I am just trying to bless you" I knew that was manipulative even then....and I had to move my seat.
VP grabbed my backside in front of people and made a comment. I know one poster who had to play duck and cover to avoid taking a coach ride with him to another campus.
It wasn't blatant orgies in the halls...but if you were female...you knew what dark alley NOT to take. It could be pretty uncomfortable. The water testing was obvious....and it came from somewhere.
My experience anyway....I wasn't there very long. It did change my mind about going into the WC though....
In my opinion, based on my own experiences, (went wow, was in the corps, lived at Emporia)...the sexual escapades were kept just beneath the surface of what was commonly known. Some people knew...most didn't. I certainly didn't...had I known, I never would have entered the corps. In retrospect, I recall thinking (while at Emporia) that there was "something" going on that I couldn't put my finger on...
...seemed like there were cliques that hung out (mostly upper "leadership")...they would all have "knowing smiles" that were somewhat lecherous...like there was a joke they were all in on and you were clueless. I might add that I was very naive and trusting...never thought that ANYTHING like indiscriminate sex was been passed around...
...Over the years I have learned that many of the worst sex offenders of twi were often the same people who I knew at Emporia who were part of the clique...
...and in case I hadn't mentioned it previously in some of my earlier posts...the whole lot of them can kiss my arse.
"It wasn't blatant orgies in the halls...but if you were female...you knew what dark alley NOT to take. It could be pretty uncomfortable."
Thanks geisha779. That makes a point that needs to be made too. Comfort levels represent more than personality preferences. How we feel about ourselves and others, how we're handled and treated.
The more I saw and heard about Emporia the more I felt like I didn't "get it". Everyone crammed into tight quarters, the odd ball scheduling, many things.
The background I had in the earliest years was one where you could basically be left alone. You could be an individual, if you came in and sat down you could feel completely at ease talking, not talking, enjoying the company of others or having some alone time if that's what you wanted. Others respected that. If you wanted to air a grievance or even just vent you could express it. If it was someone else you could listen and hear them out.
I took the Advanced Class at Emporia. I wasn't there an hour before some Corps guy on a bike felt it important to comment on how I looked. . . . how nice it was to have some pretty girls around. Innocent enough I guess, but I can remember it made me uncomfortable.
I had to change my seat more than once because the guy behind me decided to give me a neck rub. One time I got into an ugly confrontation because the man/boy sitting behind me...after I asked him not to touch me...continued to paw me. When I told him firmly ......not to touch me....I remember his response....."I am just trying to bless you" I knew that was manipulative even then....and I had to move my seat.
I don't think I was the particular guy because I didn't have a bike and I would not have been at your Advanced Class if you took it at Emporia. But I used to do stuff like that so it easily could have been at another place or time. So, FWIW, I apologize for these actions that were directed against you.
I don't think I was the particular guy because I didn't have a bike and I would not have been at your Advanced Class if you took it at Emporia. But I used to do stuff like that so it easily could have been at another place or time. So, FWIW, I apologize for these actions that were directed against you.
Thanks. :) I edited this post before I hit send and took out some of the more lurid details about that Advanced Class....a great deal happened....so my first example may look a bit misplaced. There were many truly innocent and lovely compliments back then.....I don't think they were all lecherous or wrong....some were given with the sweetest of motives. There is nothing wrong with an innocent compliment.
I tell women all the time how lovely they are and I am one!!.....8 to 88 years old....I always find something to compliment. Makes them happy.
These days....I don't balk when someone calls me pretty! Are you kidding? I love it.
i was "taught" before i even went into the way corps that wierwille was so above the physical realm or something
oh how can i explain this?
i was in a way home and went past the bathroom door and he showed himself -- exposed himself -- and i was so upset -- and my leader told me something about the spiritual vs. the flesh and he was like so above that
ohmygod his penis was so spiritual !!!!!
i have many more things to tell but i'm tired
as far as emporia well where did pat and pat take off to ? lol
i'm just being whatever
but i know FOR A FACT wierwille told me he was the one to heal me from sexual abuse
WTF ?
also know that in emporia married couples were roomed together so when the top or bottom bunk was active -- now that's really weird -- come on
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waysider
"Have you seen this?"
Yes, many of those things have been posted on various threads before.
However, you did a nice job of bringing them together, in one place, to examine.
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Tzaia
"Regular" evangelical churches have a name (besides BS) for what was taught by TWI. They call it "license".
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socks
One ex-member said the Corps' residence training was sometimes like a "bordello," with promiscuity, adultery, orgies, wife swapping, and even gang-rape.
For a certain time, it was unoffficially taught that extra-marital sex is not sinful but
could actually be protable for spiritual growth. This view was based on the old
Corinthian belief that bodily practices do not a(ff)ect the spirit of a person. Although
this was never taught publicly, it made adultery an acceptable practice, which again
made The Way more appealing for today's society than traditional churches who
clearly refused any tolerance of sexual misconduct.
These statements are confusing. That this kind of activity went on has been admitted by participants now, years later and I for one don't doubt the overall veracity of those who honestly set forth the facts as they lived them. But there's some clarity I'd like to establish on this topic:
One ex-member said the Corps' residence training was sometimes like a "bordello," with promiscuity, adultery, orgies, wife swapping, and even gang-rape.
I'm glad it came out later but sooner would have been preferable. In over 20 years in the Way and about 7 at the Way Nash in Ohio I never experienced this or saw anything like it that I would describe that way now, looking back. The ability of people to hide their activities and that of others, whether out of self-interest or fear, is something that needs to be understood in the correct context. It's not as if I or others I knew at that time were just too stupid or blind to see this - note that the ex-member is describing what they call "residence training" - it sounds like "sometimes" it was pretty much a group f-k that would be hard to miss. I do admit I never spent any length of time in Emporia, KS at the campus there but the times I was there no - it wasn't as if that's what the residence training had suddenly become, far from it.
For a certain time, it was unoffficially taught that extra-marital sex is not sinful but could actually be protable for spiritual growth.
Not in any teaching I attended or heard. I may have missed something. I've been told that VPW passed this down. He may have selected the weakest or those he felt were the most vulnerable to accept these specitic ideas.
This view was based on the old Corinthian belief that bodily practices do not a(ff)ect the spirit of a person.
I'm not sure about that - I've never heard that specific reference but it's possible. I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who can document that that was what this was based on and that that was how it was explained to them and exactly what "the old Corinthian belief" was.
Although this was never taught publicly,
True.
it made adultery an acceptable practice, which again made The Way more appealing for today's society than traditional churches who clearly refused any tolerance of sexual misconduct.
Only to those who brought it with them or had it offered to them and who wanted to accept it for whatever reasons - even on face value these ideas aren't reasonable IMO, regardless of what "scriptural" or philosohical arguments are made for them because it counters and conflicts with too much other clear scriptural and moral foundation.
I don't say this to offer any excuses for myself or to distance myself from any of it. But I think that it needs to be understood that the methods people used to hide their activities were successful because for many including myself, this was not what "being in the Way" was all about.
What I did find develop over the years was that it became more and more common to make cases for whatever it was a person chose to do that they knew was wrong, on face value, and to attempt to justify that from a biblical "principled" position, be it drug use, sex, alcohol, whatever, ie that what they "allowed" was acceptable in their circumstances and from that I'd assume that inner clique-circles of "likeminded" individuals supported each other in secret.This was happening right from the earliest years in California where I was - a lot of drug use for instance, and endless ramalama BS and navel-staring debates sprinkled with a few mis appropriated verses from the Bible carried on by those who wanted to do what they wanted to do. I finally came to the conclusion that I was lying to myself and that doing that was in direct conflict with a Christian life, dangerous and not the least problematic - illegal.
For myself, I'd stopped drug use of any kind and nearly any substantial amount of alcohol consumption before I ever went into the Way Corps in Ohio. I went from one extreme to the other. For a time then after a few years I started drinking more "socially", with others and then on my own time while on staff. It was more like an early mid-life "crisis" than anything deliberately orchestrated. Then I realized - this ain't workin' and this isn't adding anything. But others I knew throughout that period weren't all-out boozers by a long shot. Acceptable? Not really but it's my own view into those times.
I understand that we make excuses for what we do and the human tendency to find acceptance. There the roles and responsibilities of the community to help one another come into play. By creating small circles within the larger community that disconnects from the whole or that even takes over the core of the group's leadership the environment's created where chaos can reign. "Friendly chaos" is a fact of life, Deliberate and structured conflict in a community is harmful. IMO.That groups of people did things, hid them, lied about them and tried to justify them speaks for itself and the results we now can see plainly.
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skyrider
Sometimes, I think the easiest way to explain twi and its deceptive tactics......is to equate its patterns, trappings, seduction, and money/power to the movie The Firm.
In the movie, Tom Cruise is a young, energetic lawyer who is targeted by a "little-known" law firm in Memphis. Full of excitement, he plunges into a corporate darkness where secrets lie behind every door. In "upholding" the law, he finds senior lawyers who are blurring issues, over-billing clients, smooshing with the mob, jetsetting to the Bahamas, wining and dining on the corporate account, etc....
As suspicion grows, the young lawyer is over-worked and out-played. The Firm (Way) sets a seductive trap for Tom when a young woman needs "help" on a beach. With these photos, the corporation will pressure and mold the young law grad into their system. As the conflict mounts, Tom and his wife discover that The Firm has intruded on their privacy at home. Even a senior law partner is hitting on the wife while the husband is away.
Only by applying the law and documenting evidence....is Tom able to walk away from The Firm. What lies ahead for his career, he doesn't know......but he learned that evil can be dressed up in fine suits and a corporate image.
Perhaps, my experience in The Way has some movie-equity in it. :)
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geisha779
I took the Advanced Class at Emporia. I wasn't there an hour before some Corps guy on a bike felt it important to comment on how I looked. . . . how nice it was to have some pretty girls around. Innocent enough I guess, but I can remember it made me uncomfortable.
I had to change my seat more than once because the guy behind me decided to give me a neck rub. One time I got into an ugly confrontation because the man/boy sitting behind me...after I asked him not to touch me...continued to paw me. When I told him firmly ......not to touch me....I remember his response....."I am just trying to bless you" I knew that was manipulative even then....and I had to move my seat.
VP grabbed my backside in front of people and made a comment. I know one poster who had to play duck and cover to avoid taking a coach ride with him to another campus.
It wasn't blatant orgies in the halls...but if you were female...you knew what dark alley NOT to take. It could be pretty uncomfortable. The water testing was obvious....and it came from somewhere.
My experience anyway....I wasn't there very long. It did change my mind about going into the WC though....
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GrouchoMarxJr
In my opinion, based on my own experiences, (went wow, was in the corps, lived at Emporia)...the sexual escapades were kept just beneath the surface of what was commonly known. Some people knew...most didn't. I certainly didn't...had I known, I never would have entered the corps. In retrospect, I recall thinking (while at Emporia) that there was "something" going on that I couldn't put my finger on...
...seemed like there were cliques that hung out (mostly upper "leadership")...they would all have "knowing smiles" that were somewhat lecherous...like there was a joke they were all in on and you were clueless. I might add that I was very naive and trusting...never thought that ANYTHING like indiscriminate sex was been passed around...
...Over the years I have learned that many of the worst sex offenders of twi were often the same people who I knew at Emporia who were part of the clique...
...and in case I hadn't mentioned it previously in some of my earlier posts...the whole lot of them can kiss my arse.
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socks
"It wasn't blatant orgies in the halls...but if you were female...you knew what dark alley NOT to take. It could be pretty uncomfortable."
Thanks geisha779. That makes a point that needs to be made too. Comfort levels represent more than personality preferences. How we feel about ourselves and others, how we're handled and treated.
The more I saw and heard about Emporia the more I felt like I didn't "get it". Everyone crammed into tight quarters, the odd ball scheduling, many things.
The background I had in the earliest years was one where you could basically be left alone. You could be an individual, if you came in and sat down you could feel completely at ease talking, not talking, enjoying the company of others or having some alone time if that's what you wanted. Others respected that. If you wanted to air a grievance or even just vent you could express it. If it was someone else you could listen and hear them out.
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Broken Arrow
I don't think I was the particular guy because I didn't have a bike and I would not have been at your Advanced Class if you took it at Emporia. But I used to do stuff like that so it easily could have been at another place or time. So, FWIW, I apologize for these actions that were directed against you.
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geisha779
Thanks. :) I edited this post before I hit send and took out some of the more lurid details about that Advanced Class....a great deal happened....so my first example may look a bit misplaced. There were many truly innocent and lovely compliments back then.....I don't think they were all lecherous or wrong....some were given with the sweetest of motives. There is nothing wrong with an innocent compliment.
I tell women all the time how lovely they are and I am one!!.....8 to 88 years old....I always find something to compliment. Makes them happy.
These days....I don't balk when someone calls me pretty! Are you kidding? I love it.
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excathedra
i can't read all this right now -- it's too long
i was "taught" before i even went into the way corps that wierwille was so above the physical realm or something
oh how can i explain this?
i was in a way home and went past the bathroom door and he showed himself -- exposed himself -- and i was so upset -- and my leader told me something about the spiritual vs. the flesh and he was like so above that
ohmygod his penis was so spiritual !!!!!
i have many more things to tell but i'm tired
as far as emporia well where did pat and pat take off to ? lol
i'm just being whatever
but i know FOR A FACT wierwille told me he was the one to heal me from sexual abuse
WTF ?
also know that in emporia married couples were roomed together so when the top or bottom bunk was active -- now that's really weird -- come on
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