The cynical side of me thinks Werewolf intentionally picked the most controversial aspects of Christianity so he could attract the rebellious youth.
Did all his strutting, pontificating, and talking trash about other religons change the world? Sorry, no, but thanks for playing.
The world is the same place its always been, always will be. More people have heard of Joel Olsten than have heard of The Way ("Are they the ones that make the bibles?). Contrary to popular belief, there are no statues being erected to Saint Vic. Life goes on.
I think the biggest change has been in the individual. Hopefully, we've come to realize everybody who comes riding on a white horse and promising paradise means paradise for them. Hopefully, we've become aware we can't let anyone do our thinking for us, that's our responsibility. You can't memorize a book of rules and suddenly you have an answer for every situation. Life's just a tad more complex than that.
Like most revolutions, it started with the best of intentions (on our part) and wound up with the worst of results.
We no longer wanted to be shackled by our parents' religion.
. . .
How was the previous generation's religion shackling? My generation was constantly told that it was awful. It's something my generation is to be thankful for. What was so bad?
How was the previous generation's religion shackling? My generation was constantly told that it was awful. It's something my generation is to be thankful for. What was so bad?
Back in "the day", most churches were very set in their ways. Contemporary music was not allowed; if was frowned upon to have hair past lower than your ears or past your collar if you were a guy. You always had to wear a suit, and you put on a happy Christian face. Meetings were, for the most part, impersonal, challenges to the status quo was akin to ex-communiction in many cases. But I think what turned people off the most is all the talk about loving Jesus one day a week, and then acting hateful as the devil himself the other 6 days. There was never talk about what people struggled with, like divorce, or pornography, sexual abuse, and the like. Anything bad was swept under the rug. In short, the mainline church of the 60's and 70's did not relate to the young people of that time. Now, this is just the general rule, there were individual churches that were wonderful. Was it all that bad? Yes. It was like being shackled in a church pew.
Then along came the Jesus movement in the 70's with long hair and rock music and tie-dye jeans. People were hugging each other and praying for each other. In other words there was a lot more love, care and concern exhibited, but there was very little depth, at least at first. At first the mainline church tryed to stamp it out. The movement was so different than what anyone had ever seen before. Suddenly you had a bunch of drug addicted smokers wearing jeans hanging out in the church parking lot after service whooping it up. It just didn't "look good". So there was tension. Over time, the mainline church eased up. That's very simplified.
What people are saying when they post here is that TWI, namely Wierwille, grabbed that "Jesus Movement" wave and was able to siphon many of the Jesus freaks (as they were called in those days) into his ministry. It was not difficult to convince those young people that he was the man of God for our day and our time. The young people at that time really were dissatisfied with the status quo and were ready to embrace alernatives, but we weren't very good with discernment.
Did it change the world? No. PFAL was droplet in an ocean.
Did it change me? I've actually thought about this. I was 17, really 16 when I got involved and I was 32 when I got out. I was a high school student when I got in, I was a college graduate with a family when I got out. Did I change during that time? Of course I did.
I think PFAL was a hinderance to my personal growth. It actually took me on a detour away from developing my own personal talents and skills. Moreover, I stopped contemplating the things of God on my own. Anything outside of TWI doctrine was thrown out as irrelevant in my mind. I'm sure there was something of value that I learned, but darned if I can think of what it would be.
Another thing I would like to mention is that things for me didn't get really bad until I entered The Way Corps. That's when the indoctrination really began. Up until that time I was a faithful attender, but I still had a life. I hear that changed as well after my departure.
I have very few good memories of being involved with the WC. I can't think of one right now. I made some good friends, but that's about it.
Back in "the day", most churches were very set in their ways. Contemporary music was not allowed; if was frowned upon to have hair past lower than your ears or past your collar if you were a guy. You always had to wear a suit, and you put on a happy Christian face. Meetings were, for the most part, impersonal, challenges to the status quo was akin to ex-communiction in many cases. But I think what turned people off the most is all the talk about loving Jesus one day a week, and then acting hateful as the devil himself the other 6 days. There was never talk about what people struggled with, like divorce, or pornography, sexual abuse, and the like. Anything bad was swept under the rug. In short, the mainline church of the 60's and 70's did not relate to the young people of that time. Now, this is just the general rule, there were individual churches that were wonderful. Was it all that bad? Yes. It was like being shackled in a church pew.
. . .
So The Way became like any church. It cannot be reinvented.
Nowadays I see a my grandparents' generation getting their "I told you soes" in to the generation between mine and their's . . . the one that jumped up and down saying they were different.
Did it change the world? No. PFAL was droplet in an ocean.
Did it change me? I've actually thought about this. I was 17, really 16 when I got involved and I was 32 when I got out. I was a high school student when I got in, I was a college graduate with a family when I got out. Did I change during that time? Of course I did.
I think PFAL was a hinderance to my personal growth. It actually took me on a detour away from developing my own personal talents and skills. Moreover, I stopped contemplating the things of God on my own. Anything outside of TWI doctrine was thrown out as irrelevant in my mind. I'm sure there was something of value that I learned, but darned if I can think of what it would be.
Another thing I would like to mention is that things for me didn't get really bad until I entered The Way Corps. That's when the indoctrination really began. Up until that time I was a faithful attender, but I still had a life. I hear that changed as well after my departure.
I have very few good memories of being involved with the WC. I can't think of one right now. I made some good friends, but that's about it.
Broken Arrow......thanks for your posts.
Oh, how different everything was back in the late 60s and early 70s......the Jesus movement, the music, woodstock, the counter-revolution, the day the music died. The clashing of a cultural change was in the making.
Then, while in college....I was invited to a "twig" off-campus. At that time, twigs were simple, short, spontaneously different, no corps or stuffy leaders......hahahaha. For two years, I hardly knew what a corps person did or looked like.
Yet, with incremental steps.......the legalism put a stranglehold on twi. When all was said and done....it was FAR WORSE than church.
And, crazy indoctrination......I stayed into the 90s.
So The Way became like any church. It cannot be reinvented.
Nowadays I see a my grandparents' generation getting their "I told you soes" in to the generation between mine and their's . . . the one that jumped up and down saying they were different.
IMO, The Way became worse. Actually, maybe it was always worse, we just didn't notice until later when we began to have families.
However, I think the "Jesus Revolution" had a positive affect on the church at large. Today you have Christian counselors and churches that at least attempt to address people's real issues. Topics that would have been taboo in the 60's are discussed from the pulpits, like sex and sexuality. You could hardly say the word in a church in the 60's or 70's. Some of the former "Jesus People" are pastoring some of these churches.
Skyrider said, "Oh, how different everything was back in the late 60s and early 70s......the Jesus movement, the music, woodstock, the counter-revolution, the day the music died. The clashing of a cultural change was in the making."
True, but TWI had nothing to do with this. He only rode the wave. One thing that I think appealed to so many at that time was the idea of meeting in the home. Again, not an original TWI idea but one they leveraged to appeal to a group looking for answers outside the church's traditional structure. No one was meeting in the home at that time, at least not in the United States.
True, but TWI had nothing to do with this. He only rode the wave. One thing that I think appealed to so many at that time was the idea of meeting in the home. Again, not an original TWI idea but one they leveraged to appeal to a group looking for answers outside the church's traditional structure. No one was meeting in the home at that time, at least not in the United States.
No, twi didn't have anything to do with the Jesus Movement.....I didn't mean to imply that it did. Twi was like .0005% of the Jesus Movement....but don't quote me on that.
Regarding church in the home.......my grandparents had an itinerant preacher who came thru their rural community in the late 20s - mid-30s and their home was utilized for these church meetings. So, if anyone thinks that wierwille was so "spiritual".......then, so were my grandparents.
Was it a movement? Not in the normal sense – unless you want to count a bowel movement by someone who was so full of $ hi+… …..filled to capacity? Nay, brethren he was filled to overflowing! Of a truth, yeah verily, amen and a men's room.
~~
Maybe I'm wrong - but I thought a movement is when folks with a common ideology work together for the same goal or goals. In that regard the "PFAL Revolution" or anything generated by TWI for that matter is the exact opposite.
So rather than PFAL/TWI starting from a grass roots level [a movement arising from a certain group of people], it was a subversive plot to overthrow the lives of unsuspecting souls on life's journey. Not sure if that's the best choice of words – since "subversive plot" implies that there is deliberate and malicious planning involved to transform an established order. I just won't attribute to vp and the other bozos that much intelligence nor demonize them by painting them up as evil incarnate [although that is tempting at times].
This has been discussed on other threads – such as vp hijacking the Jesus movement. Imho, the PFAL/TWI "revolution" – or "subversive plot" was really a mutating virus – an ever-changing pathogen that causes a variety of diseases in each host…..a pathogen that arose from the heart of a certain ego-centric, sociopath, parasite-like predator with delusions of grandeur – vp.
Did it change the world? Doubt it.
Did it change me? Yup – several times over, as a matter of fact.
Change #1: Initial change was the gradual absorption of the TWI mindset after taking PFAL.
~~
Change #2: Then the metamorphosis was ramped up at an alarming rate when I went into the corps – which was a methodical procedure for suppressing my individuality [the corps program…the environment…uhm…the whole sub-culture is really an ongoing homogenizing process that ensures the continual maintenance of your personality makeover…er…uhm making sure it sticks]. I can still see the poster hanging on a hallway wall during my first semester:
the world out
the Word in
~~
Change #3: The turmoil surrounding the reading of Passing of the Patriarch threw a wrench in a dusty little used contraption – aka my brain. So many questions bubbling up….doubts….observations….feelings….frustrations….fears….worries…concerns…Am I entertaining devil spirits for thinking these things? Am I tripping out? This was an unwanted change at first.
Because it was…..scary. I mean certain thoughts and questions were coming on so strong and so fast and they'd lead to other ideas – like I said…scary. Feeling a little like Bruce Banner when he got upset [ok, cue the visual aid - ] and turned into the Hulk. Not saying I became a super intellectual – just trying to describe the, at first, fleeting moments of clarity and awareness - going from a brain-dead corps guy to a person with a somewhat normal functioning mind. Maybe it's something about the indomitable spirit of man – when given half a chance will always strive for freedom.
~~
Change #4: I'm happy to say this continues to be an ongoing process. It's been said whatever doesn't kill you will only make you stronger. Maybe there's something to that. I broke my left hand in a truck rollover. I am right handed. A curious thing – after therapy and time my left hand is now stronger than my right. Hopefully, I am a wiser, more discerning, compassionate person after surviving my stint in TWI.
~~
Something else I think of about this topic. What IF – and that's a big IF - maybe I better underscore it …..what IF TWI wasn't a totalitarian form of government. What if there had been a give and take at all levels – maybe more of a democratic approach. Maybe some things would have turned out different. Sounds far-fetched? Yes I know
– BUT –
I mentioned this on another thread - consider an incident from I Corinthians 5, where Paul called on the local church to levy a very harsh judgment against an immoral person. It was over a sexual scandal so vile that even their pagan neighbors were kinda freaked out about it. The local church had done nothing about it – maybe even prided themselves over how loving and forgiving they were as to minimize this awful sin. The Corinthian church followed Paul's instructions to excommunicate the offending party as a disciplinary action which not only protects the church but as a means to bring about a heartfelt change in the sinner.
There have been brave souls who have had the nerve to confront vp, lcm, and others over the years on various issues – I mean serious issues – like adultery. This is not common knowledge to the general TWI populace – not even to most corps. It is common knowledge at Grease Spot….well, the bozos stayed in power and you don't ever hear about those who had any kind of face-to-face with the aforementioned bozos… How does this relate to the I Corinthians 5 passage? Well, vp et al remaining in power, TWI becoming a life-entangling nightmare for followers is what happens when sick deranged lying thieving weaselly leaders go unchecked.
To put it in secular terms – that's the reason we have laws, a judicial system, support groups like Alcoholics Anonymous, and mental health professionals in this country. Too bad TWI is a world unto themselves.
My my T-Bone! Tell us how you really feel! What a great post! I especially liked your line about "throwing a wrench into a dusty little-used contraption a.k.a your brain."
My only contention is where you question if TWI were run by more of a democratic process. Truly, if TWI ran the way they said it should, which is where individual fellowships are self-propogating and self-supporting, it would have been a different world indeed. In other words, TWI would assume an advisory capacity only and support the local areas with research materials, mediation, maybe leadership training, and the like. Each fellowship was supposed to govern itself.
There was a much deeper problem, though, and it was that TWI was rotten to the core and its leadership had evil intentions. There is no way the type of organization I just described could have existed within The Way International. That was because the organization was about promoting a man and his ego and not about spreading the gospel. VP dismantled any organization that actually began operating in this fashion. I'm referring to The Way West and The Way East. Wierwille wanted the money and the recognition coming to Headquarters and not to the local areas. That way he could wish he were the man he knew to be on a national stage. Had the local areas taken center stage as the Way claimed they should in the class called "The Way Tree", other men would have gained prominence and V.P. would have been just another teacher of the Bible. Not the Man of God for our day and out time.
TWI was a virus at its point of inception and was incapable of producing anything but poison.
Did it change the world? Did Jesus change the world? The world that's been trying like hell to sweep him under the rug for 2000 plus years. Yes, I think he did change the world, yet some ignore this. They have science and other forms of education and world wisdom as their belief system. I bet it rankles them to realize that they have to kiss Jesus' a$$ every time they write a check. What do I mean? A check has to have a date on it. What does the date 2011 refer back to TODAY?
Did twi/pfal change the world? My belief system says yes, but I'm only one person. Did it change me? Oh, baby.
Before twi I was hurting. Most of it was my own fault. I was using drugs, had no respect for authority, and was unable to succeed at schools, jobs, or relationships. We can all assign blame for things that happened in our past, but if we as individuals don't make any effort to get back on our feet, then it won't happen by itself.
My most critical years in twi began with my wow year. I was held accountable for getting and keeping a job and for making myself presentable to speak the word to a general mix of people. The 8 year period beginning with the wow year really WAS like being in a greenhouse. It was as though I pushed the pause button on my whole life for that time. I needed that. It was a 'climate controlled' environment where I got doctrine, reproof, correction, and most importantly love. Love from God and from people. Then after 8 years I moved back to my home city and gradually I focussed more on my personal life and less on my twi identity.
That's when doors opened to me for jobs, marriage, etc. I didn't expect too much from twi and they didn't expect too much from me. That changed in 1994 and after this became clear, I left.
quote: Another thing I would like to mention is that things for me didn't get really bad until I entered The Way Corps. That's when the indoctrination really began. Up until that time I was a faithful attender, but I still had a life. I hear that changed as well after my departure.
I have very few good memories of being involved with the WC. I can't think of one right now. I made some good friends, but that's about it.
I have to admit that when I first went to twig those people were like family; I could relax. Didn't have to worry about saying the wrong thing. But when I went to the orientation meeting for my first pfal class, there was a noticeably different vibe when the corps guy walks up, introduces himself, and shakes my hand. No more casual family vibe; now I had to be totally serious. This never stopped. I learned the system. I got to know many way corps, but I knew not to try to discuss certain subjects with them. To a degree, I think this parallels other situations, like perhaps the difference between being around your closest coworkers and then the administrators walk into the room to make a presentation. That can be awkward.
quote: In short, the mainline church of the 60's and 70's did not relate to the young people of that time.
Amen. My paternal grandmother was a strict Southern Baptist. Wouldn't let you bring a deck of cards in her house. Would pour alcohol down the sink if she caught you with it. Could be very nice and sweet, too. Her son, my dad, rejected her religion; was more fascinated by science. Never went to church as an adult. His wife, my mom, had her fill of religious behavior as a child. Hated it. She was mentored into a liberal church in her 40s. That's how she tried to raise me. I stopped going to church after 9th grade. Later got into twi. Never really drank the liberal koolaid. My daughter doesn't go to fellowship much anymore. When she turned 18 I told her that if she rejected the word we'd taught her she would be continuing a family tradition. That she may very well choose a path I may be disappointed with, but that ultimately it was her decision. She went to fellowship yesterday and to a weekend thing a month ago, but we don't put any pressure on her. But, yeah. Youth seem to at least consider alternative belief systems than their parents'.
Maybe I'm wrong - but I thought a movement is when folks with a common ideology work together for the same goal or goals. In that regard the "PFAL Revolution" or anything generated by TWI for that matter is the exact opposite.
So rather than PFAL/TWI starting from a grass roots level [a movement arising from a certain group of people], it was a subversive plot to overthrow the lives of unsuspecting souls on life's journey. Not sure if that's the best choice of words – since "subversive plot" implies that there is deliberate and malicious planning involved to transform an established order. I just won't attribute to vp and the other bozos that much intelligence nor demonize them by painting them up as evil incarnate [although that is tempting at times].
Yes, the pfal/twi journey is a disturbing study of stealth and subversion.
To me, it matters not whether wierwille set in motion a deliberate and malicious transformation of his followers.....he was an enabler all the same. In my experiences, I observed plenty of decisions, assignments, projects, confrontations, and blunders to realize that wierwille and co. were not anywhere near the top of the food chain.
Your point on twi NOT a grassroots movement is well taken. Sometimes, I used to think that my first two years were "self-supporting" and all......but regrettably, realize that the messaging and marching orders were coming from afar.
In my experiences, I observed plenty of decisions, assignments, projects, confrontations, and blunders to realize that wierwille and co. were not anywhere near the top of the food chain.
You lost me there a little, Skyrider. What do you mean when you say, "Wierwille and Co. were not anywhere near the top of the food chain"?
Did twi/pfal change the world? My belief system says yes, but I'm only one person. Did it change me? Oh, baby.
Before twi I was hurting. Most of it was my own fault. I was using drugs, had no respect for authority, and was unable to succeed at schools, jobs, or relationships. We can all assign blame for things that happened in our past, but if we as individuals don't make any effort to get back on our feet, then it won't happen by itself.
My most critical years in twi began with my wow year. I was held accountable for getting and keeping a job and for making myself presentable to speak the word to a general mix of people. The 8 year period beginning with the wow year really WAS like being in a greenhouse. It was as though I pushed the pause button on my whole life for that time. I needed that. It was a 'climate controlled' environment where I got doctrine, reproof, correction, and most importantly love. Love from God and from people. Then after 8 years I moved back to my home city and gradually I focussed more on my personal life and less on my twi identity.
That's when doors opened to me for jobs, marriage, etc. I didn't expect too much from twi and they didn't expect too much from me. That changed in 1994 and after this became clear, I left.
Finally, the world of Johniam makes sense.
You see, John, you had some gains.
Many of us incurred nothing but losses thanks to Saint Vic. Thanks to him and his doctrine we lost friends, family, jobs, opportunities, spouses, and our cash. Some of us even sacrificed our youth at the alter of Vic the Magnificant MOG.
I think that's what you'll find at the core of most of the conflicts you have here.
To many on this board, its like admiring Chairman Mao. Anita Dunn said he was one of her favorite philosophers. The White House had a Christmas ordiment with his likeness. But most of us are going, what? He slaughtered how many people?
Same with Saint Vic. You feel a statue should be erected in public square in his honor. Most of us on this board are going, what? Look at all the human wreckage he left behind. All the lives he ruined.
You lost me there a little, Skyrider. What do you mean when you say, "Wierwille and Co. were not anywhere near the top of the food chain"?
When one strips away all the adulation and twi-idolatry of wierwille......imo, he was a false teacher who succombed to the lusts of the flesh.
With tongue in cheek......wierwille was "not anywhere near the top of the food chain." To add description to this analogy, let me say it like this....
Was he a killer whale?........no
Was he a white shark?.........no
Was he a marlin?..............no
Was he a mackerel?............no
He was a catfish, a bottom-feeder........yeah, he may have grown quite big in the back rivers of crawdads, minnows, and such, but a bottom-feeder nontheless.
The Jesus People movement, from what I've seen, was a legitimate movement of God
that paid no attention to denominations, organizations, and so on.
It was DIVERTED into a few groups in some places, and the fire and life of the
Jesus People was tapped and used to power some hidebound doctrines and
organizations, primarily twi. The movement was doing fine until it was adulterated
with twi leaven. Sadly, a lot of young, idealistic Christians were tricked into
conflating Jesus with twi, and missed the real movement.
Did Jesus change the world? The world that's been trying like hell to sweep him under the rug for 2000 plus years. Yes, I think he did change the world, yet some ignore this. They have science and other forms of education and world wisdom as their belief system. I bet it rankles them to realize that they have to kiss Jesus' a$$ every time they write a check. What do I mean? A check has to have a date on it. What does the date 2011 refer back to TODAY?
vpw did his best to get the young, impressionable youths to think that genuine Christianity
was synonymous with twi. He succeeded beyond his wildest expectations. There's still people
who do that decades after he died. In fact, even with a wealth of evidence showing how vpw
was a liar, a cheat, a conman, a plagiarist, and an evil man, they STILL think that.
If only they would drop the religion of twi and looked ONLY to Christ, they'd go much farther
than they are now!
Did twi/pfal change the world? My belief system says yes, but I'm only one person. Did it change me? Oh, baby.
It changed many people. In fact, some of them it killed- which is about as radical a change
as you can get. Change the WORLD? Depends how small your world is. Many local churches have a larger
footprint than twi had at its peak.
Before twi I was hurting. Most of it was my own fault. I was using drugs, had no respect for authority, and was unable to succeed at schools, jobs, or relationships. We can all assign blame for things that happened in our past, but if we as individuals don't make any effort to get back on our feet, then it won't happen by itself.
My most critical years in twi began with my wow year. I was held accountable for getting and keeping a job and for making myself presentable to speak the word to a general mix of people. The 8 year period beginning with the wow year really WAS like being in a greenhouse. It was as though I pushed the pause button on my whole life for that time. I needed that. It was a 'climate controlled' environment where I got doctrine, reproof, correction, and most importantly love. Love from God and from people. Then after 8 years I moved back to my home city and gradually I focussed more on my personal life and less on my twi identity.
That's when doors opened to me for jobs, marriage, etc. I didn't expect too much from twi and they didn't expect too much from me. That changed in 1994 and after this became clear, I left.
{Read through the testimonials of Scientologists sometime.
They may sound familiar.]
quote: Another thing I would like to mention is that things for me didn't get really bad until I entered The Way Corps. That's when the indoctrination really began. Up until that time I was a faithful attender, but I still had a life. I hear that changed as well after my departure.
I have very few good memories of being involved with the WC. I can't think of one right now. I made some good friends, but that's about it.
I have to admit that when I first went to twig those people were like family; I could relax. Didn't have to worry about saying the wrong thing. But when I went to the orientation meeting for my first pfal class, there was a noticeably different vibe when the corps guy walks up, introduces himself, and shakes my hand. No more casual family vibe; now I had to be totally serious. This never stopped. I learned the system. I got to know many way corps, but I knew not to try to discuss certain subjects with them. To a degree, I think this parallels other situations, like perhaps the difference between being around your closest coworkers and then the administrators walk into the room to make a presentation. That can be awkward.
quote: In short, the mainline church of the 60's and 70's did not relate to the young people of that time.
Amen. My paternal grandmother was a strict Southern Baptist. Wouldn't let you bring a deck of cards in her house. Would pour alcohol down the sink if she caught you with it. Could be very nice and sweet, too. Her son, my dad, rejected her religion; was more fascinated by science. Never went to church as an adult. His wife, my mom, had her fill of religious behavior as a child. Hated it. She was mentored into a liberal church in her 40s. That's how she tried to raise me. I stopped going to church after 9th grade. Later got into twi. Never really drank the liberal koolaid. My daughter doesn't go to fellowship much anymore. When she turned 18 I told her that if she rejected the word we'd taught her she would be continuing a family tradition. That she may very well choose a path I may be disappointed with, but that ultimately it was her decision. She went to fellowship yesterday and to a weekend thing a month ago, but we don't put any pressure on her. But, yeah. Youth seem to at least consider alternative belief systems than their parents'.
[This comes as a surprise to you? That's a trend for several MILLENIA.]
....My only contention is where you question if TWI were run by more of a democratic process. Truly, if TWI ran the way they said it should, which is where individual fellowships are self-propogating and self-supporting, it would have been a different world indeed. In other words, TWI would assume an advisory capacity only and support the local areas with research materials, mediation, maybe leadership training, and the like. Each fellowship was supposed to govern itself.
There was a much deeper problem, though, and it was that TWI was rotten to the core and its leadership had evil intentions. There is no way the type of organization I just described could have existed within The Way International. That was because the organization was about promoting a man and his ego and not about spreading the gospel. VP dismantled any organization that actually began operating in this fashion. I'm referring to The Way West and The Way East. Wierwille wanted the money and the recognition coming to Headquarters and not to the local areas. That way he could wish he were the man he knew to be on a national stage. Had the local areas taken center stage as the Way claimed they should in the class called "The Way Tree", other men would have gained prominence and V.P. would have been just another teacher of the Bible. Not the Man of God for our day and out time.
TWI was a virus at its point of inception and was incapable of producing anything but poison.
i agree with you - maybe i didn't get detailed enough on the countless alternate courses that could be taken by individuals - if they were not under the tightfisted control of an abusive and life-dominating organization.
For example - i really got into reading the Bible especially the gospels after i took the class and began buying various research tools like an interlinear Greek text and a critical Greek text. But i remember my Twig leader discouraging me from going so gung-ho on Bible study when i should be spend more time reviewing PFAL material. What if there wasn't all the manipulation and controlling going on to keep people focused on PFAL.
And what if i said "Hey, i bought Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the Bible" and prefer it to PFAL. And i'm not crazy about the manifestations either." Sounds like a crazy scenario crazy - BUT - imagine the variables - the changes - people leaving TWI - morphing TWI - whatever - if PFAL and vp were not so revered.
~~
i also agree with what you're saying about the poison-generating virus that created TWI. that would have to go. imho, that's why i haven't heard much good coming out of any of the offshoots & splinter groups.
.... - i really got into reading the Bible especially the gospels after i took the class and began buying various research tools like an interlinear Greek text and a critical Greek text. But i remember my Twig leader discouraging me from going so gung-ho on Bible study when i should be spend more time reviewing PFAL material. What if there wasn't all the manipulation and controlling going on to keep people focused on PFAL.
And what if i said "Hey, i bought Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the Bible" and prefer it to PFAL. And i'm not crazy about the manifestations either." Sounds like a crazy scenario crazy - BUT - imagine the variables - the changes - people leaving TWI - morphing TWI - whatever - if PFAL and vp were not so revered.
~~
i also agree with what you're saying about the poison-generating virus that created TWI. that would have to go. imho, that's why i haven't heard much good coming out of any of the offshoots & splinter groups.
Ironic, isn't it......a "bible class that teaches one the keys to researching the scriptures" and then, after you finish the course, your twig leader discourages it.
No, no.....don't read Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the Bible"
No, no.....don't go buy research books
REPEAT CUSTOMERS AND FAWNING FOLLOWERS........is the name of the game.
Ironic, isn't it......a "bible class that teaches one the keys to researching the scriptures" and then, after you finish the course, your twig leader discourages it.
No, no.....don't read Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the Bible"
No, no.....don't go buy research books
REPEAT CUSTOMERS AND FAWNING FOLLOWERS........is the name of the game.
Don't want people to realize the research ministry really didn't do any research. Most of the so-called research was either others work or something pulled out of Saint Vic's tail.
Don't want people to realize the research ministry really didn't do any research. Most of the so-called research was either others work or something pulled out of Saint Vic's tail.
SoCrates
The sinister side of me says this was far deeper.....
What T-Bone said about his twig leader, I HEARD it as well. Think about that for a second. Not corps, not staffers at hq.......but little ole twig leaders who ALREADY were in lockstep with the mentality in the mid-70s.
We used to scoff at those 'deprogrammers' who attempted to free many from twi, moonies, scientology, hari krishna groups, etc. Well...........maybe, we were PROGRAMMED.
Was the renewed mind crap in twi ANOTHER PERVERSION of scriptural truth? Yes. And, pfal was the playground of mind-gymnastics. Remember in the DTA class where the devil's kingdom was represented by the scales of a crocodile, an impenetrable protection system? Twi was like that......twig leaders, adv class grads, wows, corps, staff, SCALES OF A CROCODILE.
The corrupt system.....classes, programs, roa, mogs.....was layered with protection AND security systems. Watch patrol....aka 'bless patrol'..set a perimeter around the roa grounds to police itself. Bless patrol shifts at all corps campuses. Be watchful...ie devil spirits are everywhere!!
How deep did the programming run......consciously AND unconsciously ?
Regarding church in the home.......my grandparents had an itinerant preacher who came thru their rural community in the late 20s - mid-30s and their home was utilized for these church meetings. So, if anyone thinks that wierwille was so "spiritual".......then, so were my grandparents.
i also agree with what you're saying about the poison-generating virus that created TWI. that would have to go. imho, that's why i haven't heard much good coming out of any of the offshoots & splinter groups.
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skyrider
The youth came out in great numbers in the 1970s. Was it a movement? Was it a pfal revolution? Was it a religious quest? Was it a revolt from society altogether? We no longer wanted to be shackle
skyrider
Broken Arrow......thanks for your posts. Oh, how different everything was back in the late 60s and early 70s......the Jesus movement, the music, woodstock, the counter-revolution, the day the music d
T-Bone
Was it a movement? Not in the normal sense – unless you want to count a bowel movement by someone who was so full of $ hi+… …..filled to capacity? Nay, brethren he was filled to overflowing! Of a tr
So_crates
The cynical side of me thinks Werewolf intentionally picked the most controversial aspects of Christianity so he could attract the rebellious youth.
Did all his strutting, pontificating, and talking trash about other religons change the world? Sorry, no, but thanks for playing.
The world is the same place its always been, always will be. More people have heard of Joel Olsten than have heard of The Way ("Are they the ones that make the bibles?). Contrary to popular belief, there are no statues being erected to Saint Vic. Life goes on.
I think the biggest change has been in the individual. Hopefully, we've come to realize everybody who comes riding on a white horse and promising paradise means paradise for them. Hopefully, we've become aware we can't let anyone do our thinking for us, that's our responsibility. You can't memorize a book of rules and suddenly you have an answer for every situation. Life's just a tad more complex than that.
Like most revolutions, it started with the best of intentions (on our part) and wound up with the worst of results.
SoCrates
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Bolshevik
How was the previous generation's religion shackling? My generation was constantly told that it was awful. It's something my generation is to be thankful for. What was so bad?
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Broken Arrow
Back in "the day", most churches were very set in their ways. Contemporary music was not allowed; if was frowned upon to have hair past lower than your ears or past your collar if you were a guy. You always had to wear a suit, and you put on a happy Christian face. Meetings were, for the most part, impersonal, challenges to the status quo was akin to ex-communiction in many cases. But I think what turned people off the most is all the talk about loving Jesus one day a week, and then acting hateful as the devil himself the other 6 days. There was never talk about what people struggled with, like divorce, or pornography, sexual abuse, and the like. Anything bad was swept under the rug. In short, the mainline church of the 60's and 70's did not relate to the young people of that time. Now, this is just the general rule, there were individual churches that were wonderful. Was it all that bad? Yes. It was like being shackled in a church pew.
Then along came the Jesus movement in the 70's with long hair and rock music and tie-dye jeans. People were hugging each other and praying for each other. In other words there was a lot more love, care and concern exhibited, but there was very little depth, at least at first. At first the mainline church tryed to stamp it out. The movement was so different than what anyone had ever seen before. Suddenly you had a bunch of drug addicted smokers wearing jeans hanging out in the church parking lot after service whooping it up. It just didn't "look good". So there was tension. Over time, the mainline church eased up. That's very simplified.
What people are saying when they post here is that TWI, namely Wierwille, grabbed that "Jesus Movement" wave and was able to siphon many of the Jesus freaks (as they were called in those days) into his ministry. It was not difficult to convince those young people that he was the man of God for our day and our time. The young people at that time really were dissatisfied with the status quo and were ready to embrace alernatives, but we weren't very good with discernment.
Then the Jesus movement came along in the 70's
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Broken Arrow
Did it change the world? No. PFAL was droplet in an ocean.
Did it change me? I've actually thought about this. I was 17, really 16 when I got involved and I was 32 when I got out. I was a high school student when I got in, I was a college graduate with a family when I got out. Did I change during that time? Of course I did.
I think PFAL was a hinderance to my personal growth. It actually took me on a detour away from developing my own personal talents and skills. Moreover, I stopped contemplating the things of God on my own. Anything outside of TWI doctrine was thrown out as irrelevant in my mind. I'm sure there was something of value that I learned, but darned if I can think of what it would be.
Another thing I would like to mention is that things for me didn't get really bad until I entered The Way Corps. That's when the indoctrination really began. Up until that time I was a faithful attender, but I still had a life. I hear that changed as well after my departure.
I have very few good memories of being involved with the WC. I can't think of one right now. I made some good friends, but that's about it.
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Bolshevik
So The Way became like any church. It cannot be reinvented.
Nowadays I see a my grandparents' generation getting their "I told you soes" in to the generation between mine and their's . . . the one that jumped up and down saying they were different.
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skyrider
Broken Arrow......thanks for your posts.
Oh, how different everything was back in the late 60s and early 70s......the Jesus movement, the music, woodstock, the counter-revolution, the day the music died. The clashing of a cultural change was in the making.
Then, while in college....I was invited to a "twig" off-campus. At that time, twigs were simple, short, spontaneously different, no corps or stuffy leaders......hahahaha. For two years, I hardly knew what a corps person did or looked like.
Yet, with incremental steps.......the legalism put a stranglehold on twi. When all was said and done....it was FAR WORSE than church.
And, crazy indoctrination......I stayed into the 90s.
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Broken Arrow
IMO, The Way became worse. Actually, maybe it was always worse, we just didn't notice until later when we began to have families.
However, I think the "Jesus Revolution" had a positive affect on the church at large. Today you have Christian counselors and churches that at least attempt to address people's real issues. Topics that would have been taboo in the 60's are discussed from the pulpits, like sex and sexuality. You could hardly say the word in a church in the 60's or 70's. Some of the former "Jesus People" are pastoring some of these churches.
Skyrider said, "Oh, how different everything was back in the late 60s and early 70s......the Jesus movement, the music, woodstock, the counter-revolution, the day the music died. The clashing of a cultural change was in the making."
True, but TWI had nothing to do with this. He only rode the wave. One thing that I think appealed to so many at that time was the idea of meeting in the home. Again, not an original TWI idea but one they leveraged to appeal to a group looking for answers outside the church's traditional structure. No one was meeting in the home at that time, at least not in the United States.
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skyrider
No, twi didn't have anything to do with the Jesus Movement.....I didn't mean to imply that it did. Twi was like .0005% of the Jesus Movement....but don't quote me on that.
Regarding church in the home.......my grandparents had an itinerant preacher who came thru their rural community in the late 20s - mid-30s and their home was utilized for these church meetings. So, if anyone thinks that wierwille was so "spiritual".......then, so were my grandparents.
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T-Bone
Was it a movement? Not in the normal sense – unless you want to count a bowel movement by someone who was so full of $ hi+… …..filled to capacity? Nay, brethren he was filled to overflowing! Of a truth, yeah verily, amen and a men's room.
~~
Maybe I'm wrong - but I thought a movement is when folks with a common ideology work together for the same goal or goals. In that regard the "PFAL Revolution" or anything generated by TWI for that matter is the exact opposite.
So rather than PFAL/TWI starting from a grass roots level [a movement arising from a certain group of people], it was a subversive plot to overthrow the lives of unsuspecting souls on life's journey. Not sure if that's the best choice of words – since "subversive plot" implies that there is deliberate and malicious planning involved to transform an established order. I just won't attribute to vp and the other bozos that much intelligence nor demonize them by painting them up as evil incarnate [although that is tempting at times].
This has been discussed on other threads – such as vp hijacking the Jesus movement. Imho, the PFAL/TWI "revolution" – or "subversive plot" was really a mutating virus – an ever-changing pathogen that causes a variety of diseases in each host…..a pathogen that arose from the heart of a certain ego-centric, sociopath, parasite-like predator with delusions of grandeur – vp.
Did it change the world? Doubt it.
Did it change me? Yup – several times over, as a matter of fact.
Change #1: Initial change was the gradual absorption of the TWI mindset after taking PFAL.
~~
Change #2: Then the metamorphosis was ramped up at an alarming rate when I went into the corps – which was a methodical procedure for suppressing my individuality [the corps program…the environment…uhm…the whole sub-culture is really an ongoing homogenizing process that ensures the continual maintenance of your personality makeover…er…uhm making sure it sticks]. I can still see the poster hanging on a hallway wall during my first semester:
the world out
the Word in
~~
Change #3: The turmoil surrounding the reading of Passing of the Patriarch threw a wrench in a dusty little used contraption – aka my brain. So many questions bubbling up….doubts….observations….feelings….frustrations….fears….worries…concerns…Am I entertaining devil spirits for thinking these things? Am I tripping out? This was an unwanted change at first.
Because it was…..scary. I mean certain thoughts and questions were coming on so strong and so fast and they'd lead to other ideas – like I said…scary. Feeling a little like Bruce Banner when he got upset [ok, cue the visual aid -
] and turned into the Hulk. Not saying I became a super intellectual – just trying to describe the, at first, fleeting moments of clarity and awareness - going from a brain-dead corps guy to a person with a somewhat normal functioning mind. Maybe it's something about the indomitable spirit of man – when given half a chance will always strive for freedom.
~~
Change #4: I'm happy to say this continues to be an ongoing process. It's been said whatever doesn't kill you will only make you stronger. Maybe there's something to that. I broke my left hand in a truck rollover. I am right handed. A curious thing – after therapy and time my left hand is now stronger than my right. Hopefully, I am a wiser, more discerning, compassionate person after surviving my stint in TWI.
~~
Something else I think of about this topic. What IF – and that's a big IF - maybe I better underscore it …..what IF TWI wasn't a totalitarian form of government. What if there had been a give and take at all levels – maybe more of a democratic approach. Maybe some things would have turned out different. Sounds far-fetched? Yes I know
– BUT –
I mentioned this on another thread - consider an incident from I Corinthians 5, where Paul called on the local church to levy a very harsh judgment against an immoral person. It was over a sexual scandal so vile that even their pagan neighbors were kinda freaked out about it. The local church had done nothing about it – maybe even prided themselves over how loving and forgiving they were as to minimize this awful sin. The Corinthian church followed Paul's instructions to excommunicate the offending party as a disciplinary action which not only protects the church but as a means to bring about a heartfelt change in the sinner.
There have been brave souls who have had the nerve to confront vp, lcm, and others over the years on various issues – I mean serious issues – like adultery. This is not common knowledge to the general TWI populace – not even to most corps. It is common knowledge at Grease Spot….well, the bozos stayed in power and you don't ever hear about those who had any kind of face-to-face with the aforementioned bozos… How does this relate to the I Corinthians 5 passage? Well, vp et al remaining in power, TWI becoming a life-entangling nightmare for followers is what happens when sick deranged lying thieving weaselly leaders go unchecked.
To put it in secular terms – that's the reason we have laws, a judicial system, support groups like Alcoholics Anonymous, and mental health professionals in this country. Too bad TWI is a world unto themselves.
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Broken Arrow
My my T-Bone! Tell us how you really feel! What a great post! I especially liked your line about "throwing a wrench into a dusty little-used contraption a.k.a your brain."
My only contention is where you question if TWI were run by more of a democratic process. Truly, if TWI ran the way they said it should, which is where individual fellowships are self-propogating and self-supporting, it would have been a different world indeed. In other words, TWI would assume an advisory capacity only and support the local areas with research materials, mediation, maybe leadership training, and the like. Each fellowship was supposed to govern itself.
There was a much deeper problem, though, and it was that TWI was rotten to the core and its leadership had evil intentions. There is no way the type of organization I just described could have existed within The Way International. That was because the organization was about promoting a man and his ego and not about spreading the gospel. VP dismantled any organization that actually began operating in this fashion. I'm referring to The Way West and The Way East. Wierwille wanted the money and the recognition coming to Headquarters and not to the local areas. That way he could wish he were the man he knew to be on a national stage. Had the local areas taken center stage as the Way claimed they should in the class called "The Way Tree", other men would have gained prominence and V.P. would have been just another teacher of the Bible. Not the Man of God for our day and out time.
TWI was a virus at its point of inception and was incapable of producing anything but poison.
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johniam
Did it change the world? Did Jesus change the world? The world that's been trying like hell to sweep him under the rug for 2000 plus years. Yes, I think he did change the world, yet some ignore this. They have science and other forms of education and world wisdom as their belief system. I bet it rankles them to realize that they have to kiss Jesus' a$$ every time they write a check. What do I mean? A check has to have a date on it. What does the date 2011 refer back to TODAY?
Did twi/pfal change the world? My belief system says yes, but I'm only one person. Did it change me? Oh, baby.
Before twi I was hurting. Most of it was my own fault. I was using drugs, had no respect for authority, and was unable to succeed at schools, jobs, or relationships. We can all assign blame for things that happened in our past, but if we as individuals don't make any effort to get back on our feet, then it won't happen by itself.
My most critical years in twi began with my wow year. I was held accountable for getting and keeping a job and for making myself presentable to speak the word to a general mix of people. The 8 year period beginning with the wow year really WAS like being in a greenhouse. It was as though I pushed the pause button on my whole life for that time. I needed that. It was a 'climate controlled' environment where I got doctrine, reproof, correction, and most importantly love. Love from God and from people. Then after 8 years I moved back to my home city and gradually I focussed more on my personal life and less on my twi identity.
That's when doors opened to me for jobs, marriage, etc. I didn't expect too much from twi and they didn't expect too much from me. That changed in 1994 and after this became clear, I left.
quote: Another thing I would like to mention is that things for me didn't get really bad until I entered The Way Corps. That's when the indoctrination really began. Up until that time I was a faithful attender, but I still had a life. I hear that changed as well after my departure.
I have very few good memories of being involved with the WC. I can't think of one right now. I made some good friends, but that's about it.
I have to admit that when I first went to twig those people were like family; I could relax. Didn't have to worry about saying the wrong thing. But when I went to the orientation meeting for my first pfal class, there was a noticeably different vibe when the corps guy walks up, introduces himself, and shakes my hand. No more casual family vibe; now I had to be totally serious. This never stopped. I learned the system. I got to know many way corps, but I knew not to try to discuss certain subjects with them. To a degree, I think this parallels other situations, like perhaps the difference between being around your closest coworkers and then the administrators walk into the room to make a presentation. That can be awkward.
quote: In short, the mainline church of the 60's and 70's did not relate to the young people of that time.
Amen. My paternal grandmother was a strict Southern Baptist. Wouldn't let you bring a deck of cards in her house. Would pour alcohol down the sink if she caught you with it. Could be very nice and sweet, too. Her son, my dad, rejected her religion; was more fascinated by science. Never went to church as an adult. His wife, my mom, had her fill of religious behavior as a child. Hated it. She was mentored into a liberal church in her 40s. That's how she tried to raise me. I stopped going to church after 9th grade. Later got into twi. Never really drank the liberal koolaid. My daughter doesn't go to fellowship much anymore. When she turned 18 I told her that if she rejected the word we'd taught her she would be continuing a family tradition. That she may very well choose a path I may be disappointed with, but that ultimately it was her decision. She went to fellowship yesterday and to a weekend thing a month ago, but we don't put any pressure on her. But, yeah. Youth seem to at least consider alternative belief systems than their parents'.
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skyrider
Yes, the pfal/twi journey is a disturbing study of stealth and subversion.
To me, it matters not whether wierwille set in motion a deliberate and malicious transformation of his followers.....he was an enabler all the same. In my experiences, I observed plenty of decisions, assignments, projects, confrontations, and blunders to realize that wierwille and co. were not anywhere near the top of the food chain.
Your point on twi NOT a grassroots movement is well taken. Sometimes, I used to think that my first two years were "self-supporting" and all......but regrettably, realize that the messaging and marching orders were coming from afar.
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Broken Arrow
You lost me there a little, Skyrider. What do you mean when you say, "Wierwille and Co. were not anywhere near the top of the food chain"?
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So_crates
Finally, the world of Johniam makes sense.
You see, John, you had some gains.
Many of us incurred nothing but losses thanks to Saint Vic. Thanks to him and his doctrine we lost friends, family, jobs, opportunities, spouses, and our cash. Some of us even sacrificed our youth at the alter of Vic the Magnificant MOG.
I think that's what you'll find at the core of most of the conflicts you have here.
To many on this board, its like admiring Chairman Mao. Anita Dunn said he was one of her favorite philosophers. The White House had a Christmas ordiment with his likeness. But most of us are going, what? He slaughtered how many people?
Same with Saint Vic. You feel a statue should be erected in public square in his honor. Most of us on this board are going, what? Look at all the human wreckage he left behind. All the lives he ruined.
Ecclesiastes 9:18: Wisdom is better than weapons of war: but one sinner destroyeth much good. (An interesting sermon on the subject)
SoCrates
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skyrider
When one strips away all the adulation and twi-idolatry of wierwille......imo, he was a false teacher who succombed to the lusts of the flesh.
With tongue in cheek......wierwille was "not anywhere near the top of the food chain." To add description to this analogy, let me say it like this....
Was he a killer whale?........no
Was he a white shark?.........no
Was he a marlin?..............no
Was he a mackerel?............no
He was a catfish, a bottom-feeder........yeah, he may have grown quite big in the back rivers of crawdads, minnows, and such, but a bottom-feeder nontheless.
:)
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So_crates
I cast my vote for lower than a pregnant whales stomach on the ocean floor.
SoCrates
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WordWolf
It changed a lot of people.
The Jesus People movement, from what I've seen, was a legitimate movement of God
that paid no attention to denominations, organizations, and so on.
It was DIVERTED into a few groups in some places, and the fire and life of the
Jesus People was tapped and used to power some hidebound doctrines and
organizations, primarily twi. The movement was doing fine until it was adulterated
with twi leaven. Sadly, a lot of young, idealistic Christians were tricked into
conflating Jesus with twi, and missed the real movement.
vpw did his best to get the young, impressionable youths to think that genuine Christianity
was synonymous with twi. He succeeded beyond his wildest expectations. There's still people
who do that decades after he died. In fact, even with a wealth of evidence showing how vpw
was a liar, a cheat, a conman, a plagiarist, and an evil man, they STILL think that.
If only they would drop the religion of twi and looked ONLY to Christ, they'd go much farther
than they are now!
It changed many people. In fact, some of them it killed- which is about as radical a change
as you can get. Change the WORLD? Depends how small your world is. Many local churches have a larger
footprint than twi had at its peak.
{Read through the testimonials of Scientologists sometime.
They may sound familiar.]
[This comes as a surprise to you? That's a trend for several MILLENIA.]
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skyrider
BINGO.....
Looking back at wierwille/twi......the message becomes clear.
Question and Revolt......against your upbringing
Question and Revolt.......against community involvement
Question and Revolt.......against your churches
Question and Revolt.......against society norms
Question and Revolt.......against world & wealth
Question and Revolt.......against TWI ???.......NEVER
.
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T-Bone
i agree with you - maybe i didn't get detailed enough on the countless alternate courses that could be taken by individuals - if they were not under the tightfisted control of an abusive and life-dominating organization.
For example - i really got into reading the Bible especially the gospels after i took the class and began buying various research tools like an interlinear Greek text and a critical Greek text. But i remember my Twig leader discouraging me from going so gung-ho on Bible study when i should be spend more time reviewing PFAL material. What if there wasn't all the manipulation and controlling going on to keep people focused on PFAL.
And what if i said "Hey, i bought Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the Bible" and prefer it to PFAL. And i'm not crazy about the manifestations either." Sounds like a crazy scenario crazy - BUT - imagine the variables - the changes - people leaving TWI - morphing TWI - whatever - if PFAL and vp were not so revered.
~~
i also agree with what you're saying about the poison-generating virus that created TWI. that would have to go. imho, that's why i haven't heard much good coming out of any of the offshoots & splinter groups.
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skyrider
Ironic, isn't it......a "bible class that teaches one the keys to researching the scriptures" and then, after you finish the course, your twig leader discourages it.
No, no.....don't read Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the Bible"
No, no.....don't go buy research books
REPEAT CUSTOMERS AND FAWNING FOLLOWERS........is the name of the game.
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So_crates
Don't want people to realize the research ministry really didn't do any research. Most of the so-called research was either others work or something pulled out of Saint Vic's tail.
SoCrates
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skyrider
The sinister side of me says this was far deeper.....
What T-Bone said about his twig leader, I HEARD it as well. Think about that for a second. Not corps, not staffers at hq.......but little ole twig leaders who ALREADY were in lockstep with the mentality in the mid-70s.
We used to scoff at those 'deprogrammers' who attempted to free many from twi, moonies, scientology, hari krishna groups, etc. Well...........maybe, we were PROGRAMMED.
Was the renewed mind crap in twi ANOTHER PERVERSION of scriptural truth? Yes. And, pfal was the playground of mind-gymnastics. Remember in the DTA class where the devil's kingdom was represented by the scales of a crocodile, an impenetrable protection system? Twi was like that......twig leaders, adv class grads, wows, corps, staff, SCALES OF A CROCODILE.
The corrupt system.....classes, programs, roa, mogs.....was layered with protection AND security systems. Watch patrol....aka 'bless patrol'..set a perimeter around the roa grounds to police itself. Bless patrol shifts at all corps campuses. Be watchful...ie devil spirits are everywhere!!
How deep did the programming run......consciously AND unconsciously ?
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Broken Arrow
That's really cool, Skyrider!
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Broken Arrow
True indeed.
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