Deliberate Decisions, Patchwork or Blunders?

[skyrider]

Did wierwille have a deliberate vision and plan for twi?

First of all, I understand that all churches and businesses go thru growing pains with stops-n-starts.....but then, supposedly, twi wasn't just any ole run-of-the-mill operation. Pick a category, any category: 1) Way Tree structure and Classes, 2) Qualifications for Spiritual Oversight, 3) HQ Offices, Buildings and Campus Locations, 4) Corps Program, 5) Vision for the Future, 6) Others....

Many of these topics have been discussed ad infinitum......but the one that always amuses me is twi's buildings and campus locations. When the EOB was built, it was supposed to be a dormitory for summer school students and events. Even before completion, the dormitory was co-opted as an "Executive Office Building"....and later named, the Ermal Owens Building.

Wasn't the metal structure on shelby road placed there in 1977 for roa storage? When neighboring county fairgrounds were upping their fees and demands for twi's annual roa, twi decided to stop this arrangement and bring the event to twi-grounds. This corrogated metal building was needed for roa storage and maintenance of equipment. The building was divided in half with a cement-block wall for structural purposes.....and later, in 1979, the push was on to build office space in the Outreach Services Center.

How about....the Fine Arts and Historical Center in Sidney, Ohio? It was a "big deal" for several years and then, poof? Scrap that idea.

Corps campuses.....Emporia campus, Rome City campus, Camp Gunnison, LEAD in Tinnie, NM and the HQ campus. Emporia community never welcomed twi. All that corps labor....all those years, and then its sold for a loss. Rome City campus.....same deal. Camp Gunnison was to be the crown jewel....with wierwille's vision of family camps, horse stables, fishing trips, nightowls, restaurant, retirement homes, etc. How did that work out? And, then LEAD and that whole fiasco....

Founders' Hall was included when twi purchased the adjacent land from a dying farmer. Seems like its more along the lines of a patchwork plan than any thing else.

Corps Chalet.....a blunder, for sure. Even wierwille didn't like staying there when he and mrs. moved in there in 1982. And, that whole concept where the corps would be welcomed to stay and "hang with the man of god".....not so much. Never happened. Wierwille reneged on the whole concept and gave it to martindale.

World Over the World Auditorium......although wierwille was pretty much out of the picture by 1983/84, he and geer did discuss much of its development. In the end......the auditorium has many flaws. Too few bathrooms. Cold, sterile lobby. Coffee/snack areas for serving are too small.

So....just in this category, its clear that patchwork and blunders were far more common than not.

[So_crates]

I don't know about the buildings, but the leadership seemed to spend a lot of time groping in the dark.

One time, I went to my area coordinator to find out why ABS wasn't working. He told me I needed a job making $20 an hour. I asked where you find those. He hemmed and hawed and said he was going to send me to my twig leader to answer that question. I went to my twig leader, told him the area coordinator had sent me, explained the situation. My twig leader's response: "I don't know."

Now, the way it usually works is once you leave a higher ups office, he calls the underling just to find out what's going on. But apparently not in TWI1. Easier to make someone chase their shadow than come up with a good, solid answer that may have accomplished something.

For me, it was one of those Wile E. Coyote moments with the ministry. For all the trust and believing I had in them, I realized they were more out of the loop than a blind Chicago cab driver. My faith went SPLAT.

SoCrates

Edited February 10, 2011 by So_crates

[Twinky]

I don't know about the buildings, but the leadership seemed to spend a lot of time groping in the dark.

Far too much time, by all reports.

But perhaps all that "groping" is why there was never any other proper plan?

(Sorry for the slight derail. It was irresistable.)

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

only Gunnison seemed to make any profit by leasing it as a resort/conference center, or am I imagining too much?(I can only imagine-Bart Millard)

[skyrider]

Around 2004....GS reporting by posters confirmed that Camp Gunnison would no longer be used as a corps training location, but would shift to family camps for their followers.

Unless twi's followers have become cash-throwing consumers in the past decade......it seems to me, camp gunnison is a mismatch of ideals and realism. On one hand, twi promotes it as a destination for a "family camp vacation".....on the other hand, few twi families have the finances or desire to travel there for "vacation."

How many twi-ers are avid white-water rafters?

How many twi-ers enjoy fly-fishing and frying on an open fire?

How many twi-ers might want to skip over to Vail for some skiing?

How many twi-ers might just want a quiet place away from twi?

What kind of staff and expenses does Camp Gunnison need to function? Year round staff and maintenance can't be cheap. Even if companies and conferences are brought in to help offset the expenditures....what about parties? alcohol? wild nights? trashing the place?

Yeah, I know......twi is sitting on a gold mine investment property. It's worth millions. On so many levels, it seems like a mismatch of twi's mission to "move their prevailing word" and hold onto this property. Yet, with some $52 million in investments/stocks.... why sell now?

Maybe the bigger question......why did twi buy it in the first place?

.

[T-Bone]

Did wierwille have a deliberate vision and plan for twi?

First of all, I understand that all churches and businesses go thru growing pains with stops-n-starts.....but then, supposedly, twi wasn't just any ole run-of-the-mill operation. Pick a category, any category: 1) Way Tree structure and Classes, 2) Qualifications for Spiritual Oversight, 3) HQ Offices, Buildings and Campus Locations, 4) Corps Program, 5) Vision for the Future, 6) Others....

...

a few things come to mind about your thread topic.....looking back, i tend to think the major issues with leadership's course of actions were their decision-making model and hidden agenda.

1. the decision-making model: some leaders whom I have worked under gave me the impression they used the same decision-making process as modeled by vp himself - that being "I-so-walk-with-God-honey-that-I-don't-have-time-to-worry-about-making-wrong-decisions" mentality....flip-flopping on decisions can always be excused as "circumstances have changed so the revelation has changed".

2. the hidden agenda: over the years since i left - i've come to learn about TWI's true colors. imho i don't think any of the top leadership [past or present] had a single altruistic bone in their body. So, i tend to look at any program, plan, action, purchase, etc. as something based on their self-centered nature..... i dunno.....the opposite of doing something for the greater good.....maybe a lot of it goes back to the man who wrote the book on hidden agenda - vp [see above point # 1]........after all, vp had a clever way of making sin legitimate. giving the idea that one can become so spiritual that whatever you do is no longer sin.

so imho i don't think we can compare TWI leadership decision-making to a typical corporate or religious situation. i tend to think trying to figure out a rhyme or reason for why they did something is like trying to nail down mercury.

[skyrider]

.....maybe a lot of it goes back to the man who wrote the book on hidden agenda - vp

Gee, here I thought that the one who wrote the book on hidden agenda was.......the devil.

[So_crates]

Gee, here I thought that the one who wrote the book on hidden agenda was.......the devil.

Vp..the devil--same difference. Wait a tick. Werewolf is more evil.

SoCrates

Edited February 10, 2011 by So_crates

[geisha779]

Hobby Lobby could help them out if they wanted to do something good with the properties. Oh, I forgot....TWI doesn't really affiliate with Christians outside the "household". That is just so...so....what is the word? Odd. It would be different if they didn't claim some kind of "ministry", but, then again, it makes perfect sense. TWI is not a Christian organization. Why would they work with Christians?

Hobby Lobby bought one of the campuses that was originally part of the school D. L. Moody started for underprivileged kids to receive a good education. The campus....which is worth millions...was sold to Hobby Lobby for a hundred thousand dollars. They did have to commit to making renovations.

They in turn ......are renting it to C.S. Lewis College for a whole one dollar a year.

The property has an auditorium worth a million...the buildings are worth many millions and the property is stunning. There are dorms, huge classroom buildings and the campus is littered with beautiful Victorian houses....a gorgeous library....a lovely Chapel.....and a really amazing world-class garden designed by a true artist.

Little money changed hands.

The property will be used by Christians....as D.L. Moody intended. Actually, anyone is welcome to attend regardless of their faith....just like D.L. Moody's school. They had to go to bible class...but, DL Moody didn't turn people away. He helped the poor. (What a concept).

Didn't VP tout Moody as an influence? Not a chance.

[T-Bone]

Gee, here I thought that the one who wrote the book on hidden agenda was.......the devil.

doah! you mean.....vp plagiarized that too?!!!!

[WordWolf]

(snip)

Didn't VP tout Moody as an influence? Not a chance.

vpw claimed he took "EVERY" course Moody offered, in their correspondence classes.

He probably added the 2nd part to cover that he wasn't on their campus for months and years

it would take to actually TAKE their classes.

As it turns out, Moody has never HEARD of him.

He claimed he took "EVERY" course they offered. They don't have a record of him

taking ANY course they've offered. So, it was a lie, and one that shows his laziness again-

he wanted the credentials but he didn't want to put in the work FOR the credentials.

[skyrider]

a few things come to mind about your thread topic.....looking back, i tend to think the major issues with leadership's course of actions were their decision-making model and hidden agenda.

T-Bone......I see your point on the hidden agenda aspect.

Maybe I should have titled this thread, Plagairist, Pontificator, and Phony Preacher..... because there seems little evidence of any proactive deliberate decisions. As I've noted many times, Mrs. Wierwille's book details a vast number of men and ministries from which vpw garnered [plagairized] material.

* Wierwille listened to Rev. Fuller's radio broadcast every Sunday and, later, adapted the same radio venue with youth singing.

* Wierwille, as a church pastor, didn't even believe that the Bible was the Word of God.

* Wierwille had NO concept or vision of "his ministry" until he tapped BG Leonard's foundational class. Shortly thereafter, vpw modeled his work after a class-based system.

* Wierwille proclaimed God gave him a "black snowstorm" sign to go forth and teach His word.... a personal testimony that even vpw gave contradictory details.

* Wierwille's pfal-pontificating of his India itinerary was a tall tale.....even Dr. Williams, vpw's host, dropped his association with wierwille shortly after the trip.

* Wierwille stayed on the Van Wert Church payroll until 1957......yet, twi claims 1942 as the anniversary date. The lies in re-writing twi history continue to this day.

Is there any wonder why Mrs. Wierwille never finished Volume 2 of vpw's life? The early years can be whitewashed from further scrutiny and boast of wierwille's "greatness".....but from 1962-1985, that would not happen. Too many eyewitnesses of what really was going on. Even today, there are books that debunk the wierwille mystique and expose the myth, the mog, and the man.

.

Edited February 11, 2011 by skyrider

[T-Bone]

Hobby Lobby could help them out if they wanted to do something good with the properties. Oh, I forgot....TWI doesn't really affiliate with Christians outside the "household". That is just so...so....what is the word? Odd. It would be different if they didn't claim some kind of "ministry", but, then again, it makes perfect sense. TWI is not a Christian organization. Why would they work with Christians?

Hobby Lobby bought one of the campuses that was originally part of the school D. L. Moody started for underprivileged kids to receive a good education. The campus....which is worth millions...was sold to Hobby Lobby for a hundred thousand dollars. They did have to commit to making renovations.

They in turn ......are renting it to C.S. Lewis College for a whole one dollar a year.

The property has an auditorium worth a million...the buildings are worth many millions and the property is stunning. There are dorms, huge classroom buildings and the campus is littered with beautiful Victorian houses....a gorgeous library....a lovely Chapel.....and a really amazing world-class garden designed by a true artist.

Little money changed hands.

The property will be used by Christians....as D.L. Moody intended. Actually, anyone is welcome to attend regardless of their faith....just like D.L. Moody's school. They had to go to bible class...but, DL Moody didn't turn people away. He helped the poor. (What a concept).

Didn't VP tout Moody as an influence? Not a chance.

vpw claimed he took "EVERY" course Moody offered, in their correspondence classes.

He probably added the 2nd part to cover that he wasn't on their campus for months and years

it would take to actually TAKE their classes.

As it turns out, Moody has never HEARD of him.

He claimed he took "EVERY" course they offered. They don't have a record of him

taking ANY course they've offered. So, it was a lie, and one that shows his laziness again-

he wanted the credentials but he didn't want to put in the work FOR the credentials.

I've shared this before on another thread or two.... not long after i left TWI i started looking at PFAL material with a more critical eye - one of the ways i'd do this was by reading commentaries and systematic theologies. while i was getting into vp's study of who is the word and technical details like the greek word pros - a question kept gnawing in the back of my mind - how could vp who i assumed had all this knowledge of NT Greek could be so far off in his explanation of how pros is to be understood in John 1:1 compared to the general consensus of all these other books i read.

it bugged me enough to make me call Moody Bible Institute and check out his claim in the book the way: living in love. after the lady told me in searching their records that they could NOT find any record of vp completing a single class there i asked her if she would send me that in writing. i've also posted this letter in my gallery awhile back.

ok ....if you want to give vp the benefit of a doubt - then maybe he took everything Moody had to offer - he just didn't completely, completely absolutely complete any of the courses ....i wish you could read it in the original mythological text - it's just so so and reads "ok, so i made it all up."

Edited February 11, 2011 by T-Bone

[Broken Arrow]

I've shared this before on another thread or two.... not long after i left TWI i started looking at PFAL material with a more critical eye - one of the ways i'd do this was by reading commentaries and systematic theologies. while i was getting into vp's study of who is the word and technical details like the greek word pros - a question kept gnawing in the back of my mind - how could vp who i assumed had all this knowledge of NT Greek could be so far off in his explanation of how pros is to be understood in John 1:1 compared to the general consensus of all these other books i read.

it bugged me enough to make me call Moody Bible Institute and check out his claim in the book the way: living in love. after the lady told me in searching their records that they could NOT find any record of vp completing a single class there i asked her if she would send me that in writing. i've also posted this letter in my gallery awhile back.

ok ....if you want to give vp the benefit of a doubt - then maybe he took everything Moody had to offer - he just didn't completely, completely absolutely complete any of the courses ....i wish you could read it in the original mythological text - it's just so so and reads "ok, so i made it all up."

Supposidely V.P. completed Moody's correspondence courses. Did you by any chance find out if Moody institute even offered correspondence courses?

[T-Bone]

Supposidely V.P. completed Moody's correspondence courses. Did you by any chance find out if Moody institute even offered correspondence courses?

yup - that's exactly what i investigated - if you open the attachment in my above post you'll notice the letterhead says "Moody Correspondence School" - and that's my handwritten note near the bottom of the letter where I state - quoting vp to Elena:

"[compare page 175 of The Way, Living in Love by Elena S. Whiteside "I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses"]"

~~

Ladies and gentlemen - someone has got to be a liar....while i'm at it quoting PFAL one-liners - maybe it was this little discovery of vp's lie about taking Moody correspondence courses that really stoked the fires under my critical thinking skills - leading to a rapid demise of my TWI mindset.....guess it was like vp's argument in PFAL - if God lied to us in one verse - then you might as well chuck the whole thing away - oh brother, really really had a hard time believing ANYTHING vp wrote was true or that he was up front about how he figured it out....

and speaking of my first year or so after leaving Victorville - i found a sheet of paper with a bunch of points, doctrines, issues, etc. i had put together on what i wanted to look into further. i think it may have been around the time frame of discovering the Moody correspondence courses lie that i jotted down one word on that sheet "plagiarism" ......i wondered if this guy lied about correspondenc courses - what if he lied about all this stuff he claimed HE found in the Bible and/or that God taught him....

[excathedra]

beta max :)

is that the term ? lol

[geisha779]

Supposidely V.P. completed Moody's correspondence courses. Did you by any chance find out if Moody institute even offered correspondence courses?

Some of their non credit courses are still free if anyone is interested.

[Broken Arrow]

yup - that's exactly what i investigated - if you open the attachment in my above post you'll notice the letterhead says "Moody Correspondence School" -

Oops, sorry I didn't notice that.

[skyrider]

......i wondered if this guy lied about correspondenc courses - what if he lied about all this stuff he claimed HE found in the Bible and/or that God taught him....

.....what if he lied about hearing an audible voice from God?

.....what if he lied about "teaching the word like it hadn't been known (blah, blah, blah)

.....what if he lied and/or exaggerated his India itinerary to boast worldwide influence

.....what did wierwille actually do that demonstrated God's power in the 70s/80s?

.....what did wierwille actually do besides teach and re-hash other mens' works?

.....what if wierwille co-opted the Jesus Movement and and de-railed peoples' lives?

.....what if we should have never been on "the yellow brick road" in the first place?