quote: Whether any of these other guys were guilty of similar actions is a moot point because it's mr. wierwille's deceptive practices that are on the examination table at the moment..
Only because you want to put them there 24/7. If Twinky had titled this thread 'a prophet (VP) is a difficult man to live with', then you might be correct, but without specifically mentioning him in the title, she left open the option of more creatively exploring the ethics of ANYONE'S being worthy of the title, 'prophet'. IMO it is blatantly hypocritical of you to waste no opportunity to put VP on trial and then shun the idea of putting anyone else on trial.
Many things to consider: I went to my first twig fellowship in 1976 and took pfal in early 1977, yet I didn't hear of Jim Doop until I went wow and began to rub shoulders with people from outside my home area. Never heard anything bad or controvertial about him; just that he had a role in twi history.
The people I fellowship with these days don't like GSC. There is a limit to what I can discuss with them. The man who told me about JD has been around a long time. I've heard him tell stuff like that about a lot of topics. His take on JD seemed to indicate that JD was a borderline nut case whom VP was actually patient with.
We can all find at least ONE PERSON who espouses the most ridiculous bs.
Finding ONE PERSON who will bad-mouth Jim and actually met him is not a great accomplishment.
Yet, IMO he had a genuine ministry of God. Only God can give ministries like that, call them gift ministries or whatever, and the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, so no man can literally "steal" a God given ministry like that. Why did JD spend ANY more time with VP if VP was so obviously self serving?
Trick question. IN HINDSIGHT, vpw obviously was self-serving.
AT THE TIME, vpw was a successful conman.
See, there's 2 types of conmen- the successful and the UNsuccessful.
The UNsuccessful are more "obviously self-serving."
They offer a product that does not convince people is legitimate.
Those conmen, in true Darwinian fashion, are caught, exposed, arrested,
imprisoned, and then things really go downhill for them.
SUCCESSFUL conmen like vpw are not "OBVIOUSLY self-serving."
They cover their greed with a disguise of altruism and good-will.
They offer a product that convinces people it's legitimate.
That's how they're able to con people in the first place.
vpw was this type of conman-otherwise, he would just have vanished into
history like dozens of "snake-oil salesmen" throughout history.
As a good-hearted man, Jim actually TRUSTED that people told him the
truth, especially when they claimed to care about God.
VPs first love was scripture, the right dividing of God's word.
That's not what vpw said.
"The Way:Living in Love, pg-174.
"I always knew I wanted to help people. First, I thought I wanted to be a doctor, then a lawyer; but by my junior year in college, I had my heart set on the ministry."
Even vpw didn't say that about himself.
Mind you, even there, his story isn't consistent.
He had "Uncle Harry" claiming when vpw ditched doing his farm-chores that, just like Billy
Graham, he was practicing preaching by "preaching to the trees" despite admitting he never
actually SAW him do that.
When he was growing up, vpw had built a reputation locally as a bully and a show-off.
The Way:Living in Love, pg-177.
"After I met Rosalind Rinker in Indiana, I invited her to visit us in Payne, and
she came for a week that summer of 1942. Maybe it was August. I remember it was near
the end of summer, and she used to dog me on the Bible being the Word of God.
She talked to me about getting my own life in alignment and harmony with the Bible.
She was the one who had me make out lists of the good things I'd done, that was about
half a page, and all the bad things, that amounted to 10 or 12 pages. She was off on
that part, but the Bible as the Word of God, she really pushed that one. And I'd
never heard that in all my years of school-not believing it anyway."
vpw went to seminary school, and spent over a year as a minister, doing weekly sermons,
and THEN believed the Bible was the Word of God.
The other stuff fell in his lap.
He didn't just act as an honest minister, then get up one morning and find a hot secretary
in his living room, buck nekkid, with a rose in her teeth.
He planned things, arranged things, and eventually succeeded in his plans to molest and rape
young women.
Somewhere along the line he decided that it was OK with God for him to allow 'liberties' in his life that led him astray. That he really thought that sex outside of marriage could be "liberating" as a regular practice.
He worked it out pretty early. He went to San Francisco to meet the hippies and recruit them.
While there, he bought pornographic materials- you saw those in CFS.
While there, he tried to convince Jim D that ORGIES WERE FINE WITH GOD and tried to use the Bible
to say that. The bigger the public audience, the more moral he talked, but the more private the
conditions, the more he said his REAL thoughts- that God was ok with casual sex.
He told all the wows it wasn't fine. He told the more exclusive corps, sometimes, that it WAS.
And to a few people one-on-one, he actually said things like God was ok with ORGIES.
Jim, on the other hand, was clear God disapproved, and was glad to be delivered from things like
that, before vpw ever HEARD of him.
IS IT really impossible that any man could practice error while running a Christian ministry? Jim Doop saw SOMETHING in VP that piqued his interest. JD already had his God given ministry.
Explanations follow the most direct explanation. Jim D saw the materials from Leonard,
Stiles and Bullinger that vpw plagiarized (Kenyon as well), and that all looked legitimate-
because THEIR WORK was legitimate.
Truth at the pen of a plagiarist is still truth.
In the case of vpw, vpw used THEIR TRUTH to hide HIS sex obsessions.
IS IT really impossible that JD, for a time, bought into VPs take on sexual liberties?
No. Their one talk on the subject, vpw was pushing for Jim to tell him what ORGIES were like.
vpw said that God was cool with it and it was "AVAILABLE."
Jim DISAGREED, thanked God he was free of such things, and ended the conversation.
(vpw had made him uncomfortable by even ASKING about orgies.)]
"That's why moral superiority is a myth. We're all human. We all get tempted. We all screw things up. Moral superiority is merely a spiritual football."
You're able to imagine that a man vpw failed to corrupt might have been corrupted
by vpw, so you get to skip over all of morality? Sad, sad, sad.
Shameless how much of the Bible gets discarded, all to excuse an evil hypocrite's evil deeds
and moral deficiencies.
"So you say it's just not possible that a Christian ministry can have skeletons in its closet like that?"
NO.
We say it is a mockery of God for a supposed minister to do so evilly, and that such a man or woman
should be removed from office, exposed to his congregation, and subjected to the fullest prosecution
of criminal law. People sin, but for someone claiming to represent God to orchestrate things to
perform evil acts upon God's people is a whole different thing, and the Bible condemns such people
roundly. Some of them LOST THEIR LIVES for such.
"Look at all the denominations. They are part of the body of Christ, yet they believe Jesus is God, which is idolatry, and which is REQUIRED for membership in the National Council of Churches! This is not good, yet they are part of the body of Christ. People go to those churches and get saved, delivered from bondage, feel like they belong in the body of Christ, all that good stuff. It happens there, too."
[so, according to you, it's excusable for a minister to set up a love shack,
arrange for young parishioners to be sent there, drug them, then rape or molest
them,
but teaching the Trinity is to be thoroughly condemned.
Fascinating.]
"None of us is qualified to be a moral policeman or judge. We can say this is wrong, that is wrong, and slice it up as finely as we can, but to build this gigantic, bigger than life, superstructure, where VP is the epitome of evil? That's God's job. I'm not building a statue to VP. YOU'RE building a statue to moral superiority."
[if I ever see someone
"build this gigantic, bigger than life superstructure where vpw is the epitome of evil",
I'll probably warn them it's disproportionate to the degree of his evil deeds, and wrong.
The idea that anyone's doing this now is a convenient FICTION for you, but, hey,
it's not like your posts here have been concerned with things like "truth" and "reality"
so far, so this hardly comes as a surprise.
And one need not "build a statue" to someone to idolize them- one only need move them
from their proper place and make them a higher authority than Scripture.
Determining "moral superiority" or inferiority is a fact of life. Moral interpretation(s) is what all people do.
Christians (and an early quote of the Way) go to the Bible for issues of "faith and practice". The practice is where the moral determinations come in, of course.
Sooooo - it's interesting to me (and others I'm sure) that we have the religious terrain we live in -
All Christians have basic tenets they accept - and the Bible as a source for inspired instruction is globally accepted I'd say. But - there are many interpretations of what the Bible says and means. As the basis for Christian faith then, if there are different interpretations of certain parts it follows logically that there - could - be different applications of those things - "morals", where people disagree on the correct practice and application - their morals. .
I'd say "could" because it wouldn't always be the case I'd think but looking generically at it, there certainly could be.
Are all morals right then? One would say of another - no. That would go back to the different interpretations and understanding I think.
If the Bible was the source material and it said "Don't lie", I'd come to a very broad judgment that lying is wrong "morally".
There may be instances of lying where we might judge and say it's accepted as necessary, the only alternative, allowable, okay in this or that circumstance, but if the rule is don't lie the correct application of that is always going to be the same and the moral judgment always the same.
Does God care about these morals? If Jesus Christ is any example, yes and very much so. Jesus took the Torah to it's roots, so say His followers today. There are laws, rules, instructions. He characteristically illuminated and expounded on what those were, really meant and what they looked like in practice. So in Jesus I believe is the best example of how to be "morally superior" because He clearly held his own evaluation and judgment above those of other lesser scope.
Course not everyone always agrees on what He said and what it means and how to apply it - so I guess that goes back to square one. Personally I believe that as "the spirit teaches", the answers come. That's why I think it's good for me to remain open and honest when hearing others out, or at least trying to see what they have to contribute. But if it were as simple "lie/don't lie" I think the answer would be plain.
IS IT really impossible that any man could practice error while running a Christian ministry?
That is a really good question! Seriously! I really mean it!! Good for you....
I think it is very possible and it happens all the time. When someone is humble before the Lord and their error is pointed out....they change. It may not be easy and the struggle may last a lifetime.....but, that is the path we as Christians have to take. The Corinthians were a very gifted church and were practicing gross error. You can be a Christian and be in error. No doubt we all are in some practice.
The question I would be asking myself .....is....habitually and willfully seeking sexual sin simply practicing error? Or, is it a willful perversion of God's design and being a slave to corruption?
Actually....the question never comes up anymore....it has been answered. . . .the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority.
While we're talking about people with ministries, I learned last night that Researchgeek is in town for a weekend seminar. It has been said, I believe on this thread (some of the discussions on these threads are running together for me; not sure which thread is which), that the 5 gift ministries got too much press in twi, and that helps and governments were underrated. Research is certainly a good thing, whatever category it's in. I was asked to play music at the weekend, but I got too much going on. I am acquainted with the guy whose house it's going to be at, but I don't even know what the topic of the weekend is. Sure wouldn't mind being at a presentation of Geek's, though.
None of us is qualified to be a moral policeman or judge. We can say this is wrong, that is wrong, and slice it up as finely as we can, but to build this gigantic, bigger than life, superstructure, where VP is the epitome of evil? That's God's job. I'm not building a statue to VP. YOU'RE building a statue to moral superiority.
VPW isn't anything like the epitome of evil. He was just a nasty old man who abused God and God's people. Not the first, not the last.
VPW was not the epitome of "good" either - he was a long long loooonnnnggg way from that. He should at least have had some good habits that would make him a recognizable role model.
VPW was fond of saying that he wasn't judging - it was God judging, by the standards set in His Word. Therefore, it behooves us to "line up our actions with the Word." (I paraphrase slightly, I can't remember the exact words but that was the tenor.)
That's a fine thing to say, and a fine thing to do.
But it's not what VPW did.
All prophets, all people with a "gift ministry" - all Christians - are human beings, with faults, egos, their own natural lusts - which draw them away from God. We are vessels of clay. We all do things wrong.
But most Christians will eventually get back to thinking, I'm wrong here - I'm not doing what God says. I've sinned against God and man. They may well notice that somehow things just aren't going so well with them. God is not "working with them" any more. And when they show a little humility and repent of their "off" behavior, forgiveness is theirs and they get a clean slate to start over again with. They get to see God working within them again.
Now if one persistently does what is clearly - clearly - explicitly - said to be wrong - how on earth can one claim to have a decent relationship with God?
How, if one flagrantly ignores the written word, can one expect, firstly, to hear a non-written word from God; and secondly, to be able to impart that accurately to others?
Why on earth should God speak as to a prophet, to one who wilfully closes his ears and eyes to what is plainly in front of his nose (well, it would be if he bothered to open his Bible)?
Both OT and NT say - don't lie.
Both OT and NT say - don't steal, don't defraud.
Both OT and NT say - no adultery.
Both OT and NT say - don't covet what others have.
(I could make a long list here.)
Be ye holy, for I am holy. (Many places, OT and NT; check out 1 and 2 Peter)
What communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? (2 Cor 6)
All fail, all fall short of the glory of God. But some upon realizing where they have fallen short - apologize, and get back on track. Perfection is neither expected nor demanded. A genuine effort to love God with all one's heart, soul, mind and strength - that is to be expected.
Why would God choose a "prophet" - a "pastor" - a "teacher" (worse, "The Teacher") - who persistently ignored him over decades - in fact, figuratively spat in his face? And one who was more a prophet, pastor or teacher of Belial, than of the true God?
I've met John. I have the highest regard for him..
but is he willing to accept your description? Or insinuation that he has a God-given ordained MINISTRY?
how is "research" a "ministry"?
Research is a form of service. Driving 700 miles for a weekend seminar is definitely an act of service. In Living Victoriously in service, VP explained that his service to us that night was to teach. That night he taught on figures of speech which cause change. He also read a letter sent to him by a way corps guy whose job was to clean the porta potties late at night. The guy said that despite the low profile image his job had and the difficulty of doing the job with limited lighting, that it was still what was required of him and he should put as much heart into that as into any other job. Maybe John's service is more along the line of helps and governments, but I bet VP didn't spend as much time with the honey wagon people as he did with John and his peers.
Maybe John's service is more along the line of helps and governments, but I bet VP didn't spend as much time with the honey wagon people as he did with John and his peers.
I bet Saint Vic spent more time with the honeys than with either the honey wagon people or John and his peers.
Why on earth should God speak as to a prophet, to one who wilfully closes his ears and eyes to what is plainly in front of his nose (well, it would be if he bothered to open his Bible)?
. . . . . . ..
Why would God choose a "prophet" - a "pastor" - a "teacher" (worse, "The Teacher") - who persistently ignored him over decades - in fact, figuratively spat in his face? And one who was more a prophet, pastor or teacher of Belial, than of the true God?
Excellent post Twinky....sorry to cut and paste! The whole thing is well worth reading again. You did get me thinking about this.......Caiaphas was High Priest during the trial of Jesus....and in his position as High Priest God used him to give prophecy concerning God's plan of redemption. That was his role. Caiaphas didn't know it....and his heart was not for God....but, God still used him for His purpose and glory.
I in no way believe VP was an unwitting Prophet. I in no way believe he was ever born-again. . . . . . . but, God has been known to use an a$$ to get his point across. :)
christ died -- um he's a savior to the uttermost --
god knows the number of your hairs on your head and what's in your heart
i make NO assumption as to what HE will see in veepig's heart -- that's not for me to decide -- but it also does not keep me from saying what happened to me
see what i mean?
ps. had jesus christ been a rapist or abuser, i do not believe i would follow him
I think you make an excellent point. I don't think we're supposed to think or ponder about whether one person has a "gift ministry" or if another is a prophet etc. The point is, we're being ministered to by God. The person acting as minister is simply a vessel (oooh someone's not going to like my choice of words!) through which God brings about His Will. One of my favorite passages (that I'm too lazy to go look up right now) is where Pilate tells Jesus that he holds the power of life or death over him. Jesus' reply, and he doesn't say much, is that Pilate didn't receive anything that wasn't conferred on him by someone else. In other words, none of us have any power in and of ourselves.
People like Wierwille forgot that, or never knew it in the first place.
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Twinky
Interesting old thread this. Pity it deteriorated. I really did want some answers, about whether we'd recognize any "gift ministries." But thinking about it: Is a prophet a difficult per
WordWolf
The evil hypocrite vpw shamelessly rewrote what each of the gift ministers was, all so he could use it to his own advantage. Sometimes he was willing to claim he was one or another- more often, he
skyrider
Besides the five gift ministries (Eph 4:11)......the scriptures make reference to helps, governments, and workers of miracles in the context of the church (I Cor 12:28,29). To me, there is far more d
WordWolf
We can all find at least ONE PERSON who espouses the most ridiculous bs.
Finding ONE PERSON who will bad-mouth Jim and actually met him is not a great accomplishment.
Trick question. IN HINDSIGHT, vpw obviously was self-serving.
AT THE TIME, vpw was a successful conman.
See, there's 2 types of conmen- the successful and the UNsuccessful.
The UNsuccessful are more "obviously self-serving."
They offer a product that does not convince people is legitimate.
Those conmen, in true Darwinian fashion, are caught, exposed, arrested,
imprisoned, and then things really go downhill for them.
SUCCESSFUL conmen like vpw are not "OBVIOUSLY self-serving."
They cover their greed with a disguise of altruism and good-will.
They offer a product that convinces people it's legitimate.
That's how they're able to con people in the first place.
vpw was this type of conman-otherwise, he would just have vanished into
history like dozens of "snake-oil salesmen" throughout history.
As a good-hearted man, Jim actually TRUSTED that people told him the
truth, especially when they claimed to care about God.
That's not what vpw said.
"The Way:Living in Love, pg-174.
"I always knew I wanted to help people. First, I thought I wanted to be a doctor, then a lawyer; but by my junior year in college, I had my heart set on the ministry."
Even vpw didn't say that about himself.
Mind you, even there, his story isn't consistent.
He had "Uncle Harry" claiming when vpw ditched doing his farm-chores that, just like Billy
Graham, he was practicing preaching by "preaching to the trees" despite admitting he never
actually SAW him do that.
When he was growing up, vpw had built a reputation locally as a bully and a show-off.
The Way:Living in Love, pg-177.
"After I met Rosalind Rinker in Indiana, I invited her to visit us in Payne, and
she came for a week that summer of 1942. Maybe it was August. I remember it was near
the end of summer, and she used to dog me on the Bible being the Word of God.
She talked to me about getting my own life in alignment and harmony with the Bible.
She was the one who had me make out lists of the good things I'd done, that was about
half a page, and all the bad things, that amounted to 10 or 12 pages. She was off on
that part, but the Bible as the Word of God, she really pushed that one. And I'd
never heard that in all my years of school-not believing it anyway."
vpw went to seminary school, and spent over a year as a minister, doing weekly sermons,
and THEN believed the Bible was the Word of God.
He didn't just act as an honest minister, then get up one morning and find a hot secretary
in his living room, buck nekkid, with a rose in her teeth.
He planned things, arranged things, and eventually succeeded in his plans to molest and rape
young women.
He worked it out pretty early. He went to San Francisco to meet the hippies and recruit them.
While there, he bought pornographic materials- you saw those in CFS.
While there, he tried to convince Jim D that ORGIES WERE FINE WITH GOD and tried to use the Bible
to say that. The bigger the public audience, the more moral he talked, but the more private the
conditions, the more he said his REAL thoughts- that God was ok with casual sex.
He told all the wows it wasn't fine. He told the more exclusive corps, sometimes, that it WAS.
And to a few people one-on-one, he actually said things like God was ok with ORGIES.
Jim, on the other hand, was clear God disapproved, and was glad to be delivered from things like
that, before vpw ever HEARD of him.
Explanations follow the most direct explanation. Jim D saw the materials from Leonard,
Stiles and Bullinger that vpw plagiarized (Kenyon as well), and that all looked legitimate-
because THEIR WORK was legitimate.
Truth at the pen of a plagiarist is still truth.
In the case of vpw, vpw used THEIR TRUTH to hide HIS sex obsessions.
No. Their one talk on the subject, vpw was pushing for Jim to tell him what ORGIES were like.
vpw said that God was cool with it and it was "AVAILABLE."
Jim DISAGREED, thanked God he was free of such things, and ended the conversation.
(vpw had made him uncomfortable by even ASKING about orgies.)]
"That's why moral superiority is a myth. We're all human. We all get tempted. We all screw things up. Moral superiority is merely a spiritual football."
You're able to imagine that a man vpw failed to corrupt might have been corrupted
by vpw, so you get to skip over all of morality? Sad, sad, sad.
Shameless how much of the Bible gets discarded, all to excuse an evil hypocrite's evil deeds
and moral deficiencies.
"So you say it's just not possible that a Christian ministry can have skeletons in its closet like that?"
NO.
We say it is a mockery of God for a supposed minister to do so evilly, and that such a man or woman
should be removed from office, exposed to his congregation, and subjected to the fullest prosecution
of criminal law. People sin, but for someone claiming to represent God to orchestrate things to
perform evil acts upon God's people is a whole different thing, and the Bible condemns such people
roundly. Some of them LOST THEIR LIVES for such.
"Look at all the denominations. They are part of the body of Christ, yet they believe Jesus is God, which is idolatry, and which is REQUIRED for membership in the National Council of Churches! This is not good, yet they are part of the body of Christ. People go to those churches and get saved, delivered from bondage, feel like they belong in the body of Christ, all that good stuff. It happens there, too."
[so, according to you, it's excusable for a minister to set up a love shack,
arrange for young parishioners to be sent there, drug them, then rape or molest
them,
but teaching the Trinity is to be thoroughly condemned.
Fascinating.]
"None of us is qualified to be a moral policeman or judge. We can say this is wrong, that is wrong, and slice it up as finely as we can, but to build this gigantic, bigger than life, superstructure, where VP is the epitome of evil? That's God's job. I'm not building a statue to VP. YOU'RE building a statue to moral superiority."
[if I ever see someone
"build this gigantic, bigger than life superstructure where vpw is the epitome of evil",
I'll probably warn them it's disproportionate to the degree of his evil deeds, and wrong.
The idea that anyone's doing this now is a convenient FICTION for you, but, hey,
it's not like your posts here have been concerned with things like "truth" and "reality"
so far, so this hardly comes as a surprise.
And one need not "build a statue" to someone to idolize them- one only need move them
from their proper place and make them a higher authority than Scripture.
Not like you're going to see the difference.]
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socks
An aside of sorts -
Determining "moral superiority" or inferiority is a fact of life. Moral interpretation(s) is what all people do.
Christians (and an early quote of the Way) go to the Bible for issues of "faith and practice". The practice is where the moral determinations come in, of course.
Sooooo - it's interesting to me (and others I'm sure) that we have the religious terrain we live in -
All Christians have basic tenets they accept - and the Bible as a source for inspired instruction is globally accepted I'd say. But - there are many interpretations of what the Bible says and means. As the basis for Christian faith then, if there are different interpretations of certain parts it follows logically that there - could - be different applications of those things - "morals", where people disagree on the correct practice and application - their morals. .
I'd say "could" because it wouldn't always be the case I'd think but looking generically at it, there certainly could be.
Are all morals right then? One would say of another - no. That would go back to the different interpretations and understanding I think.
If the Bible was the source material and it said "Don't lie", I'd come to a very broad judgment that lying is wrong "morally".
There may be instances of lying where we might judge and say it's accepted as necessary, the only alternative, allowable, okay in this or that circumstance, but if the rule is don't lie the correct application of that is always going to be the same and the moral judgment always the same.
Does God care about these morals? If Jesus Christ is any example, yes and very much so. Jesus took the Torah to it's roots, so say His followers today. There are laws, rules, instructions. He characteristically illuminated and expounded on what those were, really meant and what they looked like in practice. So in Jesus I believe is the best example of how to be "morally superior" because He clearly held his own evaluation and judgment above those of other lesser scope.
Course not everyone always agrees on what He said and what it means and how to apply it - so I guess that goes back to square one. Personally I believe that as "the spirit teaches", the answers come. That's why I think it's good for me to remain open and honest when hearing others out, or at least trying to see what they have to contribute. But if it were as simple "lie/don't lie" I think the answer would be plain.
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geisha779
That is a really good question! Seriously! I really mean it!! Good for you....
I think it is very possible and it happens all the time. When someone is humble before the Lord and their error is pointed out....they change. It may not be easy and the struggle may last a lifetime.....but, that is the path we as Christians have to take. The Corinthians were a very gifted church and were practicing gross error. You can be a Christian and be in error. No doubt we all are in some practice.
The question I would be asking myself .....is....habitually and willfully seeking sexual sin simply practicing error? Or, is it a willful perversion of God's design and being a slave to corruption?
Actually....the question never comes up anymore....it has been answered. . . .the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority.
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johniam
While we're talking about people with ministries, I learned last night that Researchgeek is in town for a weekend seminar. It has been said, I believe on this thread (some of the discussions on these threads are running together for me; not sure which thread is which), that the 5 gift ministries got too much press in twi, and that helps and governments were underrated. Research is certainly a good thing, whatever category it's in. I was asked to play music at the weekend, but I got too much going on. I am acquainted with the guy whose house it's going to be at, but I don't even know what the topic of the weekend is. Sure wouldn't mind being at a presentation of Geek's, though.
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waysider
Yeah, maybe you could have a casual discussion with him about this editorial:
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/editorial/editorial-items/driven-to-suicide.html
Or maybe this one:
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/editorial/page_2.html
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So_crates
As long as its not plagerism. Or one person's opinion being palmed off as heavy research.
SoCrates
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Ham
we are assuming a lot here..
people who have a "ministry?"
I've met John. I have the highest regard for him..
but is he willing to accept your description? Or insinuation that he has a God-given ordained MINISTRY?
how is "research" a "ministry"?
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waysider
I think Wierwille's "ministry" may have been more along the lines of
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cman
what is a prophet?
ministry/ministering covers a lot of ground
both good and bad
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Twinky
VPW isn't anything like the epitome of evil. He was just a nasty old man who abused God and God's people. Not the first, not the last.
VPW was not the epitome of "good" either - he was a long long loooonnnnggg way from that. He should at least have had some good habits that would make him a recognizable role model.
VPW was fond of saying that he wasn't judging - it was God judging, by the standards set in His Word. Therefore, it behooves us to "line up our actions with the Word." (I paraphrase slightly, I can't remember the exact words but that was the tenor.)
That's a fine thing to say, and a fine thing to do.
But it's not what VPW did.
All prophets, all people with a "gift ministry" - all Christians - are human beings, with faults, egos, their own natural lusts - which draw them away from God. We are vessels of clay. We all do things wrong.
But most Christians will eventually get back to thinking, I'm wrong here - I'm not doing what God says. I've sinned against God and man. They may well notice that somehow things just aren't going so well with them. God is not "working with them" any more. And when they show a little humility and repent of their "off" behavior, forgiveness is theirs and they get a clean slate to start over again with. They get to see God working within them again.
Now if one persistently does what is clearly - clearly - explicitly - said to be wrong - how on earth can one claim to have a decent relationship with God?
How, if one flagrantly ignores the written word, can one expect, firstly, to hear a non-written word from God; and secondly, to be able to impart that accurately to others?
Why on earth should God speak as to a prophet, to one who wilfully closes his ears and eyes to what is plainly in front of his nose (well, it would be if he bothered to open his Bible)?
Both OT and NT say - don't lie.
Both OT and NT say - don't steal, don't defraud.
Both OT and NT say - no adultery.
Both OT and NT say - don't covet what others have.
(I could make a long list here.)
Be ye holy, for I am holy. (Many places, OT and NT; check out 1 and 2 Peter)
What communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? (2 Cor 6)
All fail, all fall short of the glory of God. But some upon realizing where they have fallen short - apologize, and get back on track. Perfection is neither expected nor demanded. A genuine effort to love God with all one's heart, soul, mind and strength - that is to be expected.
Why would God choose a "prophet" - a "pastor" - a "teacher" (worse, "The Teacher") - who persistently ignored him over decades - in fact, figuratively spat in his face? And one who was more a prophet, pastor or teacher of Belial, than of the true God?
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Ham
*some of us* were sent to OBSERVE..
do you have any final words in your defense?
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Ham
Is your defense, the end justifies the means?
well.. at least the trial can proceed..
anybody who can identify the allusion here.. wins the booby prize..
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Ham
I don't know about you.. but generally, people tell me EVERYTHING..
why I don't know..
yeah. Even if it is self-incriminating..
Why? well.. the only *action* I can take, is in my dreams. I can't levitate, mentally manipulate matter in real life..
I can manipulate numbers. That's about it..
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Ham
why do we get a Scientology advertisement at the bottom of the page?
Excuse the cussing.
"Christ.. I know where I am from.." and it isn't from the depths of hell. Others might disagree..
and they want to SELL the "privileged information" to me?
NOW we are getting the right ads. Super duper sandwiches..
"Hot Dang"..
and not because it passed the GS cuss checker, either..
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Ham
most of the "prophets" I've met..
when they were confronted with a large enough "following"..
acted crazy enough to disseminate the crowd..
Truth really is a pathless place..
the rest.. I don't know how to describe them..
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Ham
difficult to live with? Christ, no. A *prophet* is, or should be, your best friend..
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Ham
there is a fog upon L.A...
tell the moon dog, tell the march hare..
we have.. what?
the warmth of the sky..
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Ham
cold summer, glistening..
Schinderleria, Preamaturus..
In other word,.. "the fish".
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johniam
QUOTE: we are assuming a lot here..
people who have a "ministry?"
I've met John. I have the highest regard for him..
but is he willing to accept your description? Or insinuation that he has a God-given ordained MINISTRY?
how is "research" a "ministry"?
Research is a form of service. Driving 700 miles for a weekend seminar is definitely an act of service. In Living Victoriously in service, VP explained that his service to us that night was to teach. That night he taught on figures of speech which cause change. He also read a letter sent to him by a way corps guy whose job was to clean the porta potties late at night. The guy said that despite the low profile image his job had and the difficulty of doing the job with limited lighting, that it was still what was required of him and he should put as much heart into that as into any other job. Maybe John's service is more along the line of helps and governments, but I bet VP didn't spend as much time with the honey wagon people as he did with John and his peers.
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So_crates
I bet Saint Vic spent more time with the honeys than with either the honey wagon people or John and his peers.
SoCrates
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geisha779
Excellent post Twinky....sorry to cut and paste! The whole thing is well worth reading again. You did get me thinking about this.......Caiaphas was High Priest during the trial of Jesus....and in his position as High Priest God used him to give prophecy concerning God's plan of redemption. That was his role. Caiaphas didn't know it....and his heart was not for God....but, God still used him for His purpose and glory.
I in no way believe VP was an unwitting Prophet. I in no way believe he was ever born-again. . . . . . . but, God has been known to use an a$$ to get his point across. :)
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excathedra
i don't give one ****** about gift ministries
--
here's my idea of a gift
jesus christ
my mom
my kid
all this other shtuff.........
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excathedra
here's my other thought
christ died -- um he's a savior to the uttermost --
god knows the number of your hairs on your head and what's in your heart
i make NO assumption as to what HE will see in veepig's heart -- that's not for me to decide -- but it also does not keep me from saying what happened to me
see what i mean?
ps. had jesus christ been a rapist or abuser, i do not believe i would follow him
i have faith in him only. that's just me
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Broken Arrow
I think you make an excellent point. I don't think we're supposed to think or ponder about whether one person has a "gift ministry" or if another is a prophet etc. The point is, we're being ministered to by God. The person acting as minister is simply a vessel (oooh someone's not going to like my choice of words!) through which God brings about His Will. One of my favorite passages (that I'm too lazy to go look up right now) is where Pilate tells Jesus that he holds the power of life or death over him. Jesus' reply, and he doesn't say much, is that Pilate didn't receive anything that wasn't conferred on him by someone else. In other words, none of us have any power in and of ourselves.
People like Wierwille forgot that, or never knew it in the first place.
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