"A prophet is a difficult man to live with"

[waysider]

Isn't that where all quests lead? the unknown?..

It wouldn't be much of a "quest" if you knew where you were going, would it?

[So_crates]

Isn't that where all quests lead? the unknown?..

It wouldn't be much of a "quest" if you knew where you were going, would it?

I think the thing I've been trying to get at is, despite all the Jessica Rabbit excuses (Vp wasn't really bad, he was just drawn that way), there's a real human element to consider.

Sure get out your justice scales and weight the scintila of whatever percieved good you may think he's done against the truely evil he's done. Lives were ruined, lives were wasted--and what for? Some mook in a tan furlined collar coat, coke bottle glasses, wearing a tweed hat that literally believed he was God's gift to the universe.

SoCrates

[waysider]

Some mook in a tan furlined collar coat, coke bottle glasses, wearing a tweed hat that literally believed he was God's gift to the universe.

SoCrates

I'm not so sure he really believed it. I think his con game was deliberate. But that's just my opinion.

[WordWolf]

I'm not so sure he really believed it. I think his con game was deliberate. But that's just my opinion.

I think the evidence trail is pretty clear. He wanted an easier job than working on a farm.

He considered business, music,and preaching. Business was unreliable and is a lot of work.

Music would allow him to pursue lots of vices- musicians do that all the time- but it also is

unreliable- and is more work than it appears, with no guarantee of success.

It's said it takes 7 years of preparation to become an "overnight success".

So, neither was a guaranteed living.

So, preaching. This allowed him to remain the center of attention and get people to listen to

him (by his own words, that was critically important), guaranteed a comfortable living,

and LOOKED LIKE he worked 1 day a week.

Naturally, he discovered later it's more work than that, and people hold you accountable for

good conduct if you're a preacher. So, he began setting up his little side-ventures--

Christian radio & music with Vesper Chimes and so on, all looking for an outside independent

deal while on his denomination's paycheck. By his own words, he neither went into preaching,

nor seminary school, nor actual preaching BELIEVING THE BIBLE IS THE WORD OF GOD. So, it's pretty

clear he had another motive- which is obvious when you follow his history. He was a show-off as

a teenager and followed a career which allowed him to continue to be a showoff.

He succeeded in finding an independent deal when he found Leonard's class and plagiarized it.

This gave him a product. When the family farm became the property of the brothers, he bought out

the brothers and had it signed over to a religious organization he incorporated on the spot-

which allowed him to skip taxes on the land, and gave him a staging area for his product.

He got the final piece- the audience/customers- when he hijacked the hippies and sent them to

sell his product/promote pfal. (Although it wasn't really "his" product- it was a melange

plagiarized from different sources.)

It wasn't until he got to the customers/audience/suckers that he began telling his

"God spoke to me and made it snow" story. Supposedly, it happened in 1942, and it was 20 years

later before he even mentioned it.

Was it all deliberate? Yes, each step, each unprincipled act, each crime, all were planned

and executed. However, I think he was such a thorough con man that he conned HIMSELF part of

the time. I honestly think that when vpw told D00p that God permitted ORGIES, that vpw had

convinced himself it was so. Someone noted that his final hours included him trying to figure

out where he'd messed up-since he wasn't getting deliverance. Either he was STILL acting full-speed

at the very end, or (which I think) he succeeded in conning HIMSELF part of the time.

Yes, he knew it was all a fraud, but he put on the role so completely that the role became the

actor.

When it happens with a stage-actor, it's tragic. Evidence supports the idea that James Dean became

obsessed with Brando's "Wild One", and became "Rebel Without a Cause" for the rest of his life.

Not "typecast"- except by his own mind. When it happens outside the stage, it's a crying shame.

[geisha779]

Twinky,

These are excerpts from an article titled Spiritual Gifts on bible.org. I like that site because it gives a wide range of theology and various perspectives on the same subject. :) Nothing earth shattering in the article, but I appreciated the focus.

http://bible.org/ser...inthians-121-11

The great error of the carnal Corinthian church was to confuse spiritual gifts with spirituality. Those who spoke in tongues thought themselves to be several notches higher on the spiritual scale than those who did not have this gift. The Corinthian church was apparently an exceptionally gifted church, but it was also one of the most carnal churches in the New Testament. My friend, you may not be comforted in hearing this but the man who has the gift of pastor-teacher may be far less spiritual than the one who has the gift of helps. The one with the gift of giving may be far more spiritual than the evangelist who is winning thousands to Christ. We need only recall the Old Testament figure, Sampson, to be reminded that while he was performing great feats of strength he was living a life devoted to the flesh.

Our Spiritual Gift Excuses Us From Other Responsibilities

The watchword of the Christian sluggard is 'that's not my gift.' My pet peeve is the pastor-teacher who maintains that his sole obligation is to prepare for sermons. He has no time for counseling those who are struggling with life, no time to visit the sick, no time to comfort the mourning. That mentality is an abuse of the biblical teaching concerning spiritual gifts.

We have demonstrated that every gift relates to a function that is the responsibility of every Christian. Although some are gifted to give, all Christians are to give cheerfully to the Lord. While some are gifted to be leaders or administrators, every man is to be a leader in his home, and every woman needs to lead as well (cf. Proverbs 31). While our spiritual gift necessitates that we establish priorities, we are never excused from the responsibilities of all Christians. We are foolish to spend great amounts of time as the chairman of a committee if we are not gifted as an administrator. We would spend our time much more profitably in the area of our gift. But let us be careful about excusing ourselves from tasks for which we are responsible. We may not be gifted at leading people to Christ, but we are to be witnesses for our Lord Jesus.

Edited February 9, 2011 by geisha779

[skyrider]

I think the evidence trail is pretty clear. He wanted an easier job than working on a farm.

He considered business, music,and preaching. Business was unreliable and is a lot of work.

Music would allow him to pursue lots of vices- musicians do that all the time- but it also is

unreliable- and is more work than it appears, with no guarantee of success.

It's said it takes 7 years of preparation to become an "overnight success".

So, neither was a guaranteed living.

So, preaching. This allowed him to remain the center of attention and get people to listen to

him (by his own words, that was critically important), guaranteed a comfortable living,

and LOOKED LIKE he worked 1 day a week.

When one studies the social/economic/status networks and power-drivers in culture.....the components of 1) Class Power, and 2) Social Power, and 3) Political Power are unmistakable. Worldwide, the upper tier of clergy/spiritual leadership supersedes nearly every classification except the ruling class, the monarchy.

In wierwille's german heritage......clergymen were supreme authoritarians in society.

Where else could a narcissist achieve more status......and power?

.

[GrouchoMarxJr]

You can roll a turd in sugar but that doesn't make it a chocolate bismark.

I think that says it all...At this point, anyone still defending Vic is beyond help. I won't even try to help you...afterall, not every turtle makes it to the sea...Wierwille WAS that turd rolled in sugar...so take a bite if you'd like...as for me...I'd rather have a snickers.

[johniam]

quote: I don't know if Mr. Natural was a prophet. He definitely had a gift ministry, though....bestowed upon him by one Mr. R. Crumb.

On second thought, he must have been an apostle----bringing new light to a whole generation of freaks and heads. Yeah, sure, it was really old light but.......

Don't forget the fabulous furry freak brothers; they were a tight twig.

[Broken Arrow]

Isn't that where all quests lead? the unknown?..

It wouldn't be much of a "quest" if you knew where you were going, would it?

Especially true if you were headed in residence to Ohio, Indiana, Kansas, or Colorado.

[Broken Arrow]

I think the evidence trail is pretty clear. He wanted an easier job than working on a farm.

He considered business, music,and preaching. Business was unreliable and is a lot of work.

Music would allow him to pursue lots of vices- musicians do that all the time- but it also is

unreliable- and is more work than it appears, with no guarantee of success.

It's said it takes 7 years of preparation to become an "overnight success".

So, neither was a guaranteed living.

So, preaching. This allowed him to remain the center of attention and get people to listen to

him (by his own words, that was critically important), guaranteed a comfortable living,

and LOOKED LIKE he worked 1 day a week.

Naturally, he discovered later it's more work than that, and people hold you accountable for

good conduct if you're a preacher. So, he began setting up his little side-ventures--

Christian radio & music with Vesper Chimes and so on, all looking for an outside independent

deal while on his denomination's paycheck. By his own words, he neither went into preaching,

nor seminary school, nor actual preaching BELIEVING THE BIBLE IS THE WORD OF GOD. So, it's pretty

clear he had another motive- which is obvious when you follow his history. He was a show-off as

a teenager and followed a career which allowed him to continue to be a showoff.

He succeeded in finding an independent deal when he found Leonard's class and plagiarized it.

This gave him a product. When the family farm became the property of the brothers, he bought out

the brothers and had it signed over to a religious organization he incorporated on the spot-

which allowed him to skip taxes on the land, and gave him a staging area for his product.

He got the final piece- the audience/customers- when he hijacked the hippies and sent them to

sell his product/promote pfal. (Although it wasn't really "his" product- it was a melange

plagiarized from different sources.)

It wasn't until he got to the customers/audience/suckers that he began telling his

"God spoke to me and made it snow" story. Supposedly, it happened in 1942, and it was 20 years

later before he even mentioned it.

Was it all deliberate? Yes..

You're giving V.P. and awful lot of credit here. Do you really think he was that smart and deliberate?

[Twinky]

Geisha, thanks for the link. I like considering different poitns of view. It challenges me to think about what I really think. Always better to see things not merely two-dimensional.

Broken Arrow, same thought came to me too. I don't think he was that deliberate, but he was out for what he could get. And when he saw a chance, he grabbed it and accumulated it to his "empire." Opportunist, more than a careful planner. In his warped way, probably thought that God had blessed him with that opportunity. But it was all "take" and no "give."

Interesting you mention Jim D00p. I never heard of the man until I came here, but he seems to have "good press." Would you call him an apostle, a pastor, or any of these other things? A prophet, even?

[So_crates]

You're giving V.P. and awful lot of credit here. Do you really think he was that smart and deliberate?

Not necessarily smart and deliberate, just an opportunist.

SoCrates

[WordWolf]

(snip)

Interesting you mention Jim D00p. I never heard of the man until I came here, but he seems to have "good press." Would you call him an apostle, a pastor, or any of these other things? A prophet, even?

I never met the man, but lots of people did, some of whom posted here.

I would call him a solid, genuine Christian.

I'm slow to add labels, especially when I lack first-hand contact with the material.

I don't think I'd call him a teacher, prophet or pastor, but I could be wrong.

[johniam]

Interesting. I heard he was quite the womanizer himself.

[waysider]

Interesting. I heard he was quite the womanizer himself.

Jim D. is not the subject of this thread. Please stop trying to redirect the focus.

[Broken Arrow]

Oh, I dunno Waysider, the subject is about prophets and some people in TWI we think had them. At least that's what it's morphed into. In that regard, Doop is as much the subject of this thread as anyone else.

We often lose sight in these posts that TWI was not ever a Christian organization. That is not to say there weren't Christians in it. None of these guys operated a genuine gift ministry because they did not represent Christ. They represented an organization and more specifically, they represented a class.

As far as Doop, I never heard he was a womanizer, maybe he was. If he was, then his life was outside of God's will and he was disqualified for leadership. If he turned to Christ for forgiveness and restoration then that paints a whole different scenario. I have no idea, I never knew this man. On the other hand, with V.P., I can honestly say that I see no evidence that he thinks he did anything wrong much less any fruit of repentance. Then again, you'll never see such things in TWI because TWI's method of dealing with sin was to confess it between you the Father, then forget it and move on. No accountability whatsoever.

[skyrider]

Interesting. I heard he was quite the womanizer himself.

I seriously doubt this......

If two or three witnesses come forward to verify this, then perhaps I will consider....but refuse to accept your allegation after all that you've posted.

[Twinky]

Interesting that Johniam thinks, without any substantiation, to throw mud at Jim D00p (about whom I've never heard anything vile) yet Johniam also refuses to accept the vileness that so permeated all of VPW's life, which is hevily attested to on this forum.

And Johiam -

before you even think about it

-

If you want to libel D00p, please start your own thread and do not continue your argument on this one. I will ask the mods to remove any such posts from this thread.

Edited February 11, 2011 by Twinky

[johniam]

LOL. I DID hear that from someone who was in the 5th WC. Someone who was around in the early 70s. Selective reasoning? Ya think?

[Ham]

have you thought for half a second that someone from the early seventies has entirely abandoned that kind of ....?

let's see what the GS spellchecker does with the last sentence..

I was from the early seventies as well..

I saw what others did, in the early seventies..

brb. A few moments here..

pretend it is chat.

[waysider]

Wierdwilly made a big deal, in PFAL, about how "A prophet is not without honor, save in his own country". Same thing, really. Wierwille, using scripture, along with his backdoor approach, to imply that he, himself, was a prophet. "Oh, poor me. Nobody gives me the respect I should be getting. Boo Hoo." ----He was no prophet. He was a drunken sexual predator whose life was driven by his insatiable thirst for selfish pleasures. He was a rapist. I don't use that term cavalierly. He used his position of authority to take sexual advantage of trusting followers. That makes him a rapist, the same way it does for a professor, a priest, a therapist, a doctor or anyone else in a position of authority. Whether any of these other guys were guilty of similar actions is a moot point because it's mr. wierwille's deceptive practices that are on the examination table at the moment..

[excathedra]

jim would be the first to tell you his sorrow and repentance about his life -- i only know this because i talked to him in his dying days

[johniam]

quote: Whether any of these other guys were guilty of similar actions is a moot point because it's mr. wierwille's deceptive practices that are on the examination table at the moment..

Only because you want to put them there 24/7. If Twinky had titled this thread 'a prophet (VP) is a difficult man to live with', then you might be correct, but without specifically mentioning him in the title, she left open the option of more creatively exploring the ethics of ANYONE'S being worthy of the title, 'prophet'. IMO it is blatantly hypocritical of you to waste no opportunity to put VP on trial and then shun the idea of putting anyone else on trial.

Many things to consider: I went to my first twig fellowship in 1976 and took pfal in early 1977, yet I didn't hear of Jim Doop until I went wow and began to rub shoulders with people from outside my home area. Never heard anything bad or controvertial about him; just that he had a role in twi history.

The people I fellowship with these days don't like GSC. There is a limit to what I can discuss with them. The man who told me about JD has been around a long time. I've heard him tell stuff like that about a lot of topics. His take on JD seemed to indicate that JD was a borderline nut case whom VP was actually patient with. Yet, IMO he had a genuine ministry of God. Only God can give ministries like that, call them gift ministries or whatever, and the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, so no man can literally "steal" a God given ministry like that. Why did JD spend ANY more time with VP if VP was so obviously self serving?

VPs first love was scripture, the right dividing of God's word. The other stuff fell in his lap. Somewhere along the line he decided that it was OK with God for him to allow 'liberties' in his life that led him astray. That he really thought that sex outside of marriage could be "liberating" as a regular practice. IS IT really impossible that any man could practice error while running a Christian ministry? Jim Doop saw SOMETHING in VP that piqued his interest. JD already had his God given ministry. IS IT really impossible that JD, for a time, bought into VPs take on sexual liberties? That's why moral superiority is a myth. We're all human. We all get tempted. We all screw things up. Moral superiority is merely a spiritual football.

So you say it's just not possible that a Christian ministry can have skeletons in its closet like that? Look at all the denominations. They are part of the body of Christ, yet they believe Jesus is God, which is idolatry, and which is REQUIRED for membership in the National Council of Churches! This is not good, yet they are part of the body of Christ. People go to those churches and get saved, delivered from bondage, feel like they belong in the body of Christ, all that good stuff. It happens there, too.

None of us is qualified to be a moral policeman or judge. We can say this is wrong, that is wrong, and slice it up as finely as we can, but to build this gigantic, bigger than life, superstructure, where VP is the epitome of evil? That's God's job. I'm not building a statue to VP. YOU'RE building a statue to moral superiority.

[waysider]

Have you ever been raped, John? How about your wife? Your mother? Your sister?

Think that's irrelevent or off the table? I don't think so.

It comes as no surprise to me that your pals aren't fond of GSC.

Who really wants to admit to themself they were once part of such a vile organization?

[So_crates]

VPs first love was scripture, the right dividing of God's word.

This is apparently some definition of "love" and "rightly dividing" I'm not familiar with.

Have you been reading some of the other threads? Vp did nothing, zip, nada, the bagel, to rightly divide the word. Most of his work (I am trying to be kind) was done by others which he palmed off as his.

He however was good at seducing women, drinking, and getting people to worship Vp--which, if I were you, I'd be careful: your love of Vp hedges idoltry.

Again, dude, I see someone who too concerned about how victimized the victimizer is and not concerned enough about the real victims.

Need help guys. Paraphrasing here. Doesn't it say in the Bible "A little bit of evil undoes a lot of good" or something to that effect.

You can tell me how righteous Vp is, but all his evil has undone all his good. Like I told you, by being unrepentant and unremorseful Vp forfieted his forgiveness on earth. By continuing in his ways, even though he knew they were evil, he forfieted any mercy. For most people that would be enough, but not Vp, he saw to it his evil spread in LCM.

SoCrates

Edited February 12, 2011 by So_crates