the victoids' *ministry(?)*

[waysider]

Admittedly, the conversation gets a bit abstract at times. But, hey, Vp's "ministry" is an abstract subject. It was a distortion of reality (ie: abstract)

[cman]

strange thread i think

what's so bad about dieing

we have been taught wrong about it

everyone dies, why is such fear promoted with it

Jesus died, Christ died, we will too

sheesh, driving me nuts

using fear of death as some kind of trick

not knowing anything about it, they seduce with fear

well, some who are still alive know about death and after it

enough to know it's not to be feared and more

damned hypocrites who use this will die too ya know

-end rant-

[geisha779]

Doesn't coexist? Yes, it does.

James 3:8-10 - but the tongue can no man tame, it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison Therewith bless we God, even the Father, and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing...

Rom 7:14,15 - For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do, I allow not, for what I would, that I do not, but what I hate, that do I

VP said of senses faith that it does everything except act on the word. The word 'but' truly sets in contrast the works of the flesh with the fruit of the spirit, yet both exist "under the same roof" in all of us.

Rom 7:22-25 - For I delight in the law of God after the inward man, But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin, which is in my members. O wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind, I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Do you know how we serve the law of sin with our flesh? We die. If you serve something, then you are paid wages, right? The wages of sin is....death. As I said, this is as good as it gets in this life; the body of Christ. Imperfect people worshipping a perfect God. Difficult? Wretched? Yes, but in this life, it's as good as it gets.

What is the point here? I don't get it. It seems a pretty caviler attitude toward sin.....rather like an "Oh well"......but, taking a couple verses and making them fit your point while ignoring God and the rest of scripture is oddly reminiscent to me. Where is the "Woe is me, I am a man of unclean lips" or the sorrow of sin? Where is the fear of God in this post? Am I missing it....because I really could be, but I don't think so.

Jesus had to die for our sins. God abhors sin. He is angry at the wicked everyday. We should abhor sin, not dismiss it . Have you read the REST of Romans?

And we are commanded not to sin.

Understanding a holy, holy, holy God gives one a whole new attitude about sin. ...and it is not "Oh well". It is repentance , sorrow, and CHANGE, also an honest realization of the nature of who it is we are offending.

Christians do not minimize sin. Understanding what it means to be a sinner is all important to understanding the true message of the gospel.

Edited February 5, 2011 by geisha779

[johniam]

Waysider: SIT felt good the first time I did it in twig. It felt good doing it during my first session 12. It feels good doing it today. It has never NOT felt good to me. I guess I have not been subject to someone trying to pressure me into doing it all the time 24/7, other than the annoying examples I stated in my last post. But I don't schedule time to do it every day; never have, other than lift lists. I used to believe that if I SITd silently to myself after reading each name(s) on the lift list that this was praying in the spirit. Not sure about that anymore, and prayer with the understanding has always been fine, too, but I don't really think I hurt anyone by praying for them like that.

Trying to pressure me into SIT is like trying to pressure me into eating more grapefruit. The first thing I put into my mouth every day is usually a half grapefruit. (not all at once) If somebody tried to tell me to eat more of them, then I might consider switching to tart apples. Jonathan, maybe. Just to make them mad.

[johniam]

quote: Christians do not minimize sin. Understanding what it means to be a sinner is all important to understanding the true message of the gospel.

I'd rather minimize it than maximize it. Christ paid for ours. This doesn't justify sinning deliberately; there will be cosequences for that, if not in this world, then in that which is to come. But VP made a point of having his ministry be different from the oppressive sin consciousness that dominated religion during his childhood. He saw the evil that can come from that. The pharissees were like that, too. Being everybody's sin cop is an effective way to control other people. It's OK, even wise, to be your own sin cop, but don't try to be everybody else's. Today the media tries to do that with politically correct and other false standards.

[Broken Arrow]

strange thread i think

what's so bad about dieing

we have been taught wrong about it

everyone dies, why is such fear promoted with it

Jesus died, Christ died, we will too

sheesh, driving me nuts

using fear of death as some kind of trick

not knowing anything about it, they seduce with fear

well, some who are still alive know about death and after it

enough to know it's not to be feared and more

damned hypocrites who use this will die too ya know

-end rant-

Don't you think that fear of death is something that is common to all humankind? I believe that fear of death is the genesis of all sorts of philosophies, behaviors, and religions. I believe at the root of all compulsions is the fear of death. Just an opinion. I would like to hear yours if you have the time.

[cman]

Being everybody's sin cop is an effective way to control other people.

Yeah, I learned how in the way from the pfal class.

[johniam]

quote: Don't you think that fear of death is something that is common to all humankind?

Heb. 2:15 - and deliver them (everybody) who, through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

[waysider]

No, I don't think you hurt anyone by speaking in tongues for them. People have hurt themselves, though, by substituting SIT/Believing for urgently needed medical attention or to garner a false sense of security in dangerous situations. In fact, many people were needlessly maimed or even died for that very reason. (Read the L.E.A.D. accident thread sometime in light of that thought.)

Still, the message in the Advance Class is clear. If you don't speak in tongues daily, God won't talk to you.

And if you are in any sort of leadership position, you will feel some sense of personal failure if you don't do it as much as you think you should. After all, what if God needs to tell me something to protect "my people" and I haven't been speaking in tongues enough to receive the revelation? And, then, if something bad should happen, the guilt creeps in.

"If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding."

Edited February 5, 2011 by waysider

[Broken Arrow]

quote: Christians do not minimize sin. Understanding what it means to be a sinner is all important to understanding the true message of the gospel.

I'd rather minimize it than maximize it. Christ paid for ours. This doesn't justify sinning deliberately; there will be cosequences for that, if not in this world, then in that which is to come. But VP made a point of having his ministry be different from the oppressive sin consciousness that dominated religion during his childhood. He saw the evil that can come from that. The pharissees were like that, too. Being everybody's sin cop is an effective way to control other people. It's OK, even wise, to be your own sin cop, but don't try to be everybody else's. Today the media tries to do that with politically correct and other false standards.

But in TWI there was no emphasis on overcoming sinful behavior. It was more along the lines of putting it behind you. In order to be victorious against it, that is, to quit doing it, one has to realize the depravity of their behavior. Then from a heart of true repentance turn to the Father. You're right, there comes a time when one has to be honest and realize when it's time to move on. Otherwise one turns to self-flagellation (sp?). Everything in balance. In my 15 years in TWI I can't count the number of times I've had someone commit an offense against me and then have a very lackadaisical attitude when I confronted them. Not that I ever did the same to others...no, not me.

I hold that we weren't instructed along those lines because VP himself did not want to be held accountable for his own actions.

[waysider]

The L.E.A.D. accident

[cman]

Yeah, I learned how in the way from the pfal class.

it's called out of fellowship or alignment and harmony

used extensively and effective on most in twi

does that ring any bells?

[johniam]

quote:

Still, the message in the Advance Class is clear. If you don't speak in tongues daily, God won't talk to you.

I didn't get that from the AC. God never talked to Martin Luther? If I'm driving on the highway and there's an accident or bad weather or anything which actually requires me to focus with my 5 senses mind, then I'm not going to worry about if I SITd enough that day. Might pray with the understanding. I just never processed twi stuff as commands from the Almighty like that. I was never in the corps. I've heard about face meltings like the one you described where the 6th corps guy nodded out during corps night. I'm sorry if you got scarred in that scenerio or any other.

LCM used to say (and I think he got this one right) that you shouldn't let your kids go to bed for the night thinking you don't love them. You should be willing to spend as much time as it takes to make the situation right. So I could never picture God Himself getting all stern and saying, "OK today you SITd for one minute and fifteen seconds. THAT'S NOT ENOUGH!!! Just for that, I won't talk to you for 8 days!" (gavel pounding). That's not the God who so loved that He gave, is it? Sure hope not.

[waysider]

it's called out of fellowship or alignment and harmony

used extensively and effective on most in twi

does that ring any bells?

Yes---a very loud bell.

"God won't talk yo you if you out of fellowship."

What a guilt trip that can lay on you when something happens-----and, eventually, something WILL happen----'cause that's how life is-----stuff happens.

[waysider]

quote:

Still, the message in the Advance Class is clear. If you don't speak in tongues daily, God won't talk to you.

I didn't get that from the AC. God never talked to Martin Luther?

How can you NOT get that from the Advanced Class? It's right there in black and white on page 10. It's *key number 3 on the list of keys to walking in the spirit. Did God ever talk to Martin Luther? Thank you for proving my point. The whole thing is rife with contradictory messages.

*refer to post #121

Edited February 5, 2011 by waysider

[geisha779]

quote: Christians do not minimize sin. Understanding what it means to be a sinner is all important to understanding the true message of the gospel.

I'd rather minimize it than maximize it. Christ paid for ours. This doesn't justify sinning deliberately; there will be cosequences for that, if not in this world, then in that which is to come. But VP made a point of having his ministry be different from the oppressive sin consciousness that dominated religion during his childhood. He saw the evil that can come from that. The pharissees were like that, too. Being everybody's sin cop is an effective way to control other people. It's OK, even wise, to be your own sin cop, but don't try to be everybody else's. Today the media tries to do that with politically correct and other false standards.

Thank-you johniam because this is a little clearer for me. You would rather minimize sin than maximize it? I never said it was an either or proposition did I? Why jump to a black and white extreme? I am speaking of having a proper attitude toward sin as a follower of Christ. A caviler attitude toward sin....is not Christian. It is not a part of the Christian faith.

As you point out....Jesus died for our sins. Why? Why did He become sin? That is what the scriptures say. He stood in your stead.....and He took on what was due you. Jesus didn't just suffer and die, He took on the sins of the world. (No mere man did this). He absorbed the full wrath of God. Wrath toward sin. It wasn't the miracles Jesus performed or the healings that saved us. It was Him becoming sin.

The scriptures are brimming with God's judgment because of sin. There are not a whole lot of abundant life scriptures in the bible. It is all about redemption. Don't you think a proper understanding of why sin is so offensive to God is paramount to understanding salvation? You have to ask yourself, what is the gospel really all about. Why does the whole bible point to one person? Was it because He multiplied bread and fish? Why did you have to be redeemed?

God is love right? So, what is the biggie?He just wants us to be happy? Well, understanding that God is love but also, just, holy, pure, and merciful is all the more clearer when we understand sin. God so LOVED the world that He GAVE His only begotten Son. That is how God shows us He loves us BTW. It is not by giving us red drapes. But MAN loved darkness rather than light and unfortunately that includes you and I and VP.

It is hard for me to fathom a time when man has truly been too sin conscious.

VP made a point of having his ministry different from the oppressiveness of sin culture that dominates religion? Actually, VP fled a faith. He fled Christianity because we are sin conscious. We have to be. WE ARE SINNERS!!!! We are constrained from sin, because we understand the gospel, we follow and love Jesus, we magnify Him, and we know sin is abhorrent to Him. The Holy Spirit, whom Jesus sent to convict and constrain us......gently points to our sin. So, that we can STOP.

Of course VP fled a place where sin is brought to the light. He didn't want to stop sinning and he didn't ....he just got progressively worse. He embraced it fully.....he followed another path.....and he built himself a religion where he was Lord and master....not Jesus. A place and theology where he could keep sinning and live well while doing it. "Oh well" we are already sinners...right?

Being aware of sin is not evil. Bearing one anothers burden is not evil. As Christians what exactly are our burdens? What are we to lay aside?

Your post just jumped to extremes. Us against them....black and white.....Christianity is evil is what I heard.....because we are sin conscious...very sin conscious. The scriptures point us to the savior FROM sin. Not a Savior who allows us to continue in sin, but saves us from it.....VP lead us away from such a faith. In the Christian faith....being aware of sin is very important. Big sins, acceptable sins, little sins......we help each other because we are sinners, but we don't want to sin. We want to follow Jesus

[geisha779]

I have to ask this.....when did VP ever stop sinning? When did he stop excessive Drambuie consumption? Stop abusing young women...stop adultery....stop exploring pornography and perversion......stop his sexual sin.....stop with anger......turn from the love of money.....stop making merchandise of us......control his foul language........cease twisting the scriptures.......stop any of it?

When was the point he repented and turned to Jesus ........turned from sin and followed the Lord the other way? When?

Can anyone point to his being transformed?

Why would anyone follow that man into the chasm he climbed into? Why listen to a single word about a holy God from a man who embraced his sin? Unless sin doesn't really matter.

As a Christian...I just don't get it.

VP's ministry wasn't a safe harbor...it was a place to hide.

Edited February 5, 2011 by geisha779

[leafytwiglet]

Thanks Geisha for pointing that all out so clearly.

This brings me to the point of wondering ... If I knew all that VP was doing .. the drinking, the molesting, the carousing, The Lying, The plagerizing.

Would I have become a member of the way international?

I probably would not have.

I took the class and tried to incorporate the teachings of the Way and VP into my life becasue he was portrayed as a Man of God who knew the scriptures and had studied them and wanted to share what he had learned from theem. I was there because he presented himself in that class as a man who had spent over 40 years studying God's word to understand it and was sharing it with us.. He portrayed himself as being upright and following God's word in the Power for Abundant Living Class.

When I went WOW he lectured to us as we were about to embark on our WOW year to "keep your Penis in your pants"

Regular believers were given a picture of who VP was ... not the real picture I might add.

apparently people who were in the Corps not only got to see him up close and personal but saw how he corrupted the bible to get his own way and some of them not only followed but dragged the people in their fellowship down the same abyss.

[geisha779]

And.... :)

If we choose to follow Christ.....know that we are sinners and we continue to expose ourselves to a theology which confuses holiness with religiosity we are less likely to truly understand sin.

I can remember listening to the bible being taught with the most profane language. A hallmark of TWI. Profanity. I don't know another church where the Pastor gets up, takes the Lord's name in vain, drops the F-bomb and then teaches about a holy God.

I can remember twig being a place for hook-ups and dirty jokes. Sexual sin, a hallmark of TWI.

My husband used to get high after twig...along with everyone else in the twig. They would go straight from supposed "manifestations" bible teaching and Christian fellowship to getting high. An accepted practice. Substance abuse, be it alcohol or not...a hallmark of TWI.

But, look at us...we are fun to be around....not religious.

At least it wasn't heroin. Right...no big deal.

I guess that depends on what one considers acceptable to God.

VP had no clue.

[waysider]

It wasn't all bad........ at least we learned how to "stretch" coffee.

[Ham]

Admittedly, the conversation gets a bit abstract at times

no joke..

have to ask this.....when did VP ever stop sinning? When did he stop excessive Drambuie consumption? Stop abusing young women...stop adultery....stop exploring pornography and perversion......stop his sexual sin.....stop with anger......turn from the love of money.....stop making merchandise of us......control his foul language........cease twisting the scriptures.......stop any of it?

honestly.. I think it was the day he died..

[Ham]

at this point, I think his "ministry" was a "safe harbor" for those who yearned to rob, extort and rape under a banner of righteousness..

[Ham]

the "rest of us" didn't seem to be afforded the same level of protection..

I remember a meeting once with G*orge J*ss..

he was alluding to some concept, like.. the spiritual battle was with those who run da organization..

anybody else from Michigan remember that meeting?

what was mentioned was rather subtle..

[Ham]

maybe that was the best he could do..

the seeds of what he spoke.. eventually germinated, at least in my understanding..

[johniam]

quote: He absorbed the full wrath of God. Wrath toward sin.

Whoa! En garde! Full wrath of God???? Where do you get that? God is light; in Him is no darkness at all. You're saying He's a child abuser.

quote: Christianity is evil is what I heard.

Then that's what you're going to "hear" every time I post anything, right?