Lots of our kids are into it, too...not just as "my mom and dad's religion
so what is "it"?
might I say.. neither of my kids are into my old, chosen religion..
past religion, present, or future..
the new religion has a conscience..
it's what is the word..
"involved".
wherever, or whatever that is..
service. world service..
if you haven't noticed.. that's where what's the word.. the victoid had a word for the roman catholics.. what was it.. but no, they've reached out to the world. Then there is the other version my other daughter embraced.. as "right wing" or whatever you could label them.. they absolutely CARE whether a pregnant lady in some other part of the world, has a diet with nutritional enough food, and supplements enough to supply enough vitamin A and D in their diet..
that was the best "Christmas card" I could have received.. I don't know if anyone else got one of these.. that they CARED..
Waysider, you must be the on the spot reporter, chasing me from thread to thread, hoping a story will break. I NEVER post on the politics forum. But I did last week and there you were. Well, on the spot reporter, you missed a spot.
Waysider and others have been posting in various forums for years, including the Political Forum. It's not as if no one has had anything to say until you or I came along and brightened up their otherwise mundane lives. You can simply look at some of the other threads and find some rather, let's say, "spirited" discussions. What might strike you as odd is that neither you or I have any posted comments. Why? Because we weren't present. I understand you were a regular awhile back. Nevertheless, life goes on with or without us. So, be at peace. No one is chasing you from forum to forum. People were posting stuff regardless of whether you or I were there to share our great wisdom, and they'll continue to do so if we stop. That is, until Paw pulls the plug.
Waysider: on either the rephrase this thread or the red flag session one thread you said you got a empty feeling in the pit of your stomach when you realized that SIT was only glossolalea or grossology, or whatever it was. Does this still persist? Do you really believe that you might not be born again? Sometimes you act like you may think your only possible shot at eternal life is by spending every possible moment of the rest of your life preaching VPs evil from the housetops. Say it ain't so.
Have you ever heard the expression, "Don't put all your eggs in one basket."? I think that's what has happened for a lot of people who bought into The Gospel According to Wierwille. Suppose you find out that what you thought was speaking in tongues was not really speaking in tongues at all? That would kind of leave you with an empty basket wouldn't it? It would seem to me that you haven't bothered to investigate this possibility with an open mind. I say that because you haven't even bothered to learn the correct spelling of glossolalia.
Do I worry about being born again? No, not really. I live my life the best I can and try to live by The Golden Rule. If that's not good enough, let the chips fall where they may. Wierwille would have done well to do the same. Instead, he abused his position of authority to destroy the lives of countless, well-meaning people.
Earn eternal life by preaching the evils of VPW? What makes you think I'm trying to earn eternal life? People have a right to know that The Way is/was a scam and that Wierille was a con artist. Would I be following The Golden Rule if I intentionally led them to believe otherwise?
quote: It would seem to me that you haven't bothered to investigate this possibility with an open mind. I say that because you haven't even bothered to learn the correct spelling of glossolalia.
My feeling on this is...if it ain't broke, don't "fix it".
quote: Do I worry about being born again? No, not really. I live my life the best I can and try to live by The Golden Rule. If that's not good enough...
Not good enough? It's not necessary. The golden rule is not the criteria for salvation. Jesus said "sinners lend unto sinners hoping to receive again". Those "sinners" are practicing the golden rule aren't they? Sure! The whole point of salvation by Jesus Christ is that all of mankind is not "good enough" by their own works. That all of mankind (the world that God so loved) needs a savior. That without what Jesus accomplished by his death and resurrection, there would be no hope for mankind whatsoever.
quote: Earn eternal life by preaching the evils of VPW? What makes you think I'm trying to earn eternal life? People have a right to know that The Way is/was a scam and that Wierille was a con artist. Would I be following The Golden Rule if I intentionally led them to believe otherwise?
VP taught us to read the bible. That's not a scam.
Waysider, you cite a University of Pennsylvania study of which there were only 5 participants and you point to that as proof that speaking in tongues isn't authentic. 5 participants is not a large enough study group for one to draw conclusions, we've discussed this before. Even 100 people isn't a large enough study group. You need about 1000 or more for your results to be conclusive.
As Pentecostalism expanded in the 20th century and attracted the attention of the wider world, psychologists initially thought of glossolalia in pathological terms, thinking that it was caused by mental illness. In 1927 George Cutten described speakers in tongues as people of low mental abilities.
This explanation was effectively refuted in 1969 by a team from the University of Minnesota, who conducted an extensive study covering the United States, Mexico, Haiti and Colombia; they reached practitioners among Pentecostals, other Protestant groups, and Roman Catholics.
Cutten's contentions concerning psychopathology, quoted and re-quoted through the years, have taken on an aura of fact among non-Pentecostal churchmen who are critical of the movement. His assumption that glossolalia is linked to schizophrenia and hysteria has not been supported by any empirical evidence.
Subsequently, a 2003 statistical study in the religious journal Pastoral Psychology concluded that, among the 991 male evangelical clergy sampled, glossolalia was associated with stable extroversion, and contrary to some theories, completely unrelated to psychopathology.
AHA!!!!!! Would you look at THAT! What we have here...is a bunch of natural men who happen to have educational degrees...sitting in judgement of God's people. That Cutten guy (yeah, he'd like to do a little bit of 'cutten' all right) was so locked into his agenda that all he saw was mental instability, just like all LCM saw was AOS for a time. I definitely think VPs MINISTRY had a lot to do with the conclusion of the 2003 statistical study, that SIT is "stable extroversion". Good for them.
VP was a pioneer. He made SIT easy, practical, harmless. You should be asking why the devil still tries to do so much to queer SIT.
Take a fresh and close look at the scriptures and the answer is there concerning SIT. Why was Paul speaking about the genuine and the counterfeit to the Corinthians? Because there is such an animal maybe? Even Devils will affirm the Lordship of Jesus Christ ....James 2:19. Acts 19...Mark 5 and more references I can't think of off the top of my head.
Look at the plural use of tongue and then tongues in 1 Corinthians if truly interested. Paul was contrasting two different things. One counterfeit and one genuine. One from God and one from the devil. I know you said if it is not broken....but we are encouraged to examine.
If someone SIT before that class, before TWI....and some did....that is great. Many true Christians got caught up in the snare of TWI. If we "learned" SIT in PFAL or that was our experience and are continuing on the path of faith....maybe prayerfully examining the subject is a sound idea. What if it actually is as He(The Holy Spirit) wills.
When Jesus said if your eye offends you pluck it out......did He mean really pluck your eye out? When Paul said I would that ye all SIT was he really saying everyone could?
Maybe read up on prayer...it is beautiful, but when you begin to look at it ....it doesn't really support the idea that it was God's intention for us to speak to Him in a language we can't even understand.. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Onomatopoeia. Jesus warns us against this.
Even Peter, after witnessing the transfiguration, did not vaunt his experience over the prophetic word (OT) and Peter was warning about false teachers.
How can one who is truly born-again.....sell the Lord's death so cheaply? It cost God His beloved Son's suffering and death........and to assure people that they are heaven bound and all hell cannot stop them.....because of an experience which can be counterfeited......is beyond sinful.
It is a narrow way.
No true work of the spirit would ever produce the sins which were rampant in VP's life and the blatant corporate and continual sins of The Way Ministry.
Minister means serve. Teachings, classes, fellowships, etc.
Matthew 20: 25-28
25But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Matthew 25:43-45
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mark 10:42-44
42But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
43But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
44And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
Another description might be..... An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife,( no adultery) temperate, prudent, respectable,
able to teach, not addicted to wine(or drambuie) or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church.......
Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain,
but holding to themystery of the faith with a clear conscience.(That is clear conscience not seared conscience)
On the other hand they should not be any of these...lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power;
quote: When Paul said I would that ye all SIT was he really saying everyone could?
Yes, he was. Hey, Eve, did God really say thou shalt not eat of every tree of the garden???
You know....I was just trying to get you to consider language. This is what you come up with? I do understand because I went through the same thing. I have empathy for you.
A surface and "spoon fed" understanding of the scriptures is not going to help you to realize you were in an anti-Christian cult.
20 years since the truth about TWI has come out is more than enough time to begin to deal with what you were involved in.
They took your money and sold you easy believism. If you truly desire to know what it was you are immersed in....God is gracious and kind and will deliver you.
If this TWI doctrine is what you want....He will let you continue in it.
quote: When Paul said I would that ye all SIT was he really saying everyone could?
Yes, he was. Hey, Eve, did God really say thou shalt not eat of every tree of the garden???
Gal. 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ...
Gal. 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel.
Which category does vpw & co. fall in? ......Works of the flesh (Gal. 5:19-21) OR fruit of the spirit (Gal. 5:22,23). Paul spoke these truths as well, right?
Argue all you want, but..........by their fruits YE SHALL KNOW THEM.
Also Johniam....since it seemed to sail over your head....my point was that possibly Paul was exaggerating. If you notice, he does this in other places. Something to consider.....
Jesus used hyperbole to make a point. These things are all over the scriptures.
What Paul is saying with this one statement has to jive with the rest of what he is saying and remember...he was sternly correcting the Corinthians.
You have mentioned several times that VP taught us how to read the bible. Well, he taught us how he read the bible......but, you really should try reading it for yourself. It is difficult because we were so programmed to read and understand it a certain way.
VP didn't do us any favors.
And just to add:
Throwing out half of a verse like Roman's 8:38 as if that is going to remind someone and snap them in line....doesn't work on people here. At least most people I have seen post.
That is a trigger which once initiated a certain response in us. A certain mindset. We all knew what that meant according to PFAL. There is no depth there.
People are now free to draw their own conclusions about the scripture.
Funny thing. Once I really read it. It took on a different hue for me. It is no longer a trigger.
VP was a pioneer. He made SIT easy, practical, harmless.
Wow! This is priceless. If SIT (as taught in The Way) is genuine, do you really think God would require the services of VP (you know he wasn't really a Dr., don't you?) Wierwille to make it "easy, practical, harmless"?
Johniam, you said, "VP was a pioneer. He made SIT easy, practical, harmless. You should be asking why the devil still tries to do so much to queer SIT."
Personally I think the limitations of western thinking as well as the age of enlightenment makes it hard for westerners to grasp something like speaking in tongues and other spiritual gifts (Yeah, I said gifts). I don't think the fact Wierwille taught S.I.T. is any indication of him being a "pioneer" as you say. You said yourself, the Pentacostalists had been speaking in tongues for years. Maybe it wasn't part of the mainstream (whatever that is), but it certainly wasn't new. The Charismatics were also practicing speaking in tongues around that same time period that TWI was in its "growth spurt". Wierwille actually did this important aspect of Christianity an injustice in that he endeavored to put restrictions on the movement of the Spirit. Like everything else, he had to control it.
I don't think he was accurate on his teaching of interpretation of tongues or prophecy, but that's just me.
quote: Which category does vpw & co. fall in? ......Works of the flesh (Gal. 5:19-21) OR fruit of the spirit (Gal. 5:22,23). Paul spoke these truths as well, right?
Those of us who are born again have both fruit of the spirit AND works of the flesh. We will get no rewards (inheritance) for works of the flesh (vain repetitions, church attendance, abstination from vice, community service, and all the things that some religious people do to show themselves godly), but for listening to God's still small voice and ministering grace to the hearers and being the kind of Christian that others want to be like and be around, that's part of the fruit of the spirit. We've all been that person.
Even Jesus' own group of disciples had a guy who was in charge of the money who let it get to his head and made a very bad choice. What Christian group are you going to possibly join where something like that can't happen? Nobody's going to betray Jesus again, but every fellowship or church is going to have money to watch over, people to steward, spiritual curriculum to consider, activities to plan, and, oh, yeah, imperfection in the very Christians who oversee it all. The body of Christ is as good as it gets right now.
Wow! This is priceless. If SIT (as taught in The Way) is genuine, do you really think God would require the services of VP (you know he wasn't really a Dr., don't you?) Wierwille to make it "easy, practical, harmless"?
By the way, didn't Wierwille have a doctorate in Homiletics? Granted, it was from a "degree mill", but didn't he have a bonified degree? I realize that he allowed everyone to think his degree was in theology.
quote: Nobody's going to betray Jesus again....
What are you talking about? People betray Jesus all the time. Oh, that's right, VP taught that Christ is "absent". Now there's a scintillating truth.
quote: I don't think the fact Wierwille taught S.I.T. is any indication of him being a "pioneer" as you say. You said yourself, the Pentacostalists had been speaking in tongues for years. Maybe it wasn't part of the mainstream (whatever that is), but it certainly wasn't new.
It hasn't been "new" since the day of Pentecost. In the book of Acts SIT was the proof that someone was a Christian. The 5 examples in pfal document that. Today, and basically since before the end of the first century, SIT has been replaced by creeds and nonbiblical doctrines like the trinity. Pentecostals didn't make SIT easy, practical, OR harmless. Their people who SITd had to roll around on the floor, handle snakes, throw hymnals in the air, and other self demeaning stuff. Not so pfal grads. VPs ministry proved that anyone could SIT without having to act like an idiot.
In the session called Living Victoriously in God's peace, VP said he got a phone call immediately before coming on stage that really teed him off. His solution? "I waited until I got a sober thought, then SITd like crazy. It still works, baby!" That is practical.
quote: Wierwille actually did this important aspect of Christianity an injustice in that he endeavored to put restrictions on the movement of the Spirit.
1 Cor. 14:27 - if any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or, at the most by three, and that by course, and let one interpret.
v.34 - Let your women keep silence in the churches...
v.35 - if they will learn anything let them ask their husbands at home...
v.37 - if any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
v.40 - Let all things be done decently and in order.
I guess VP wasn't the only one putting "restrictions on the movement of the spirit".
quote: Which category does vpw & co. fall in? ......Works of the flesh (Gal. 5:19-21) OR fruit of the spirit (Gal. 5:22,23). Paul spoke these truths as well, right?
Those of us who are born again have both fruit of the spirit AND works of the flesh. We will get no rewards (inheritance) for works of the flesh (vain repetitions, church attendance, abstination from vice, community service, and all the things that some religious people do to show themselves godly), but for listening to God's still small voice and ministering grace to the hearers and being the kind of Christian that others want to be like and be around, that's part of the fruit of the spirit. We've all been that person.
We don't necessarily have the fruit of the spirit by being born again. You already know that. I hope you know that fruit of the spirit is a whole lot more than being the type of Christian that others would want to be like and be around. If I don't have to quote Gal. 5:22, 23 because you already know it describes quite plainly what the fruit of the spirit is. I will however quote verses 24-26, "Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited...."
We have Christ, we walk with Christ, we chose Christ for two reasons. One is to have eternal life and the other is to overcome sin. If someone has a problem with that and thinks these words are "too religious", or burdensome, then that person has a problem with Gal. 5:24-26.
1 Cor. 14:27 - if any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or, at the most by three, and that by course, and let one interpret.
v.34 - Let your women keep silence in the churches...
v.35 - if they will learn anything let them ask their husbands at home...
v.37 - if any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
v.40 - Let all things be done decently and in order.
I guess VP wasn't the only one putting "restrictions on the movement of the spirit".
Okay, you make a good point here. I was thinking more about that if things didn't happen in a certain way, it was often considered "off", or even "devilish" in TWI. Case in point: A person came to a twig one time who liked to say "amen", and, "Uh huh", a lot during the teaching. He also said other things like, "Preach it! Preach it!" We thought the guy was possessed and discouraged him from doing this. I find out decades later this type of behavior is fairly common in certain churches. Others raise their hands while praying. So? Anything wrong with raising one's hands?
quote: I don't think the fact Wierwille taught S.I.T. is any indication of him being a "pioneer" as you say. You said yourself, the Pentacostalists had been speaking in tongues for years. Maybe it wasn't part of the mainstream (whatever that is), but it certainly wasn't new.
It hasn't been "new" since the day of Pentecost. In the book of Acts SIT was the proof that someone was a Christian. The 5 examples in pfal document that.
I don't agree. I don't think the text supports that tongues is (or was) THE proof of someone being a Christian. I believe that people looked for "fruit" and confession (what a person talks about). Tongues may have been part of it too, I dunno. The 5 examples in PFAL simply show that speaking in tongues was practiced in Bible times. I always thought that's what he was going for in that section of the class. If I remember correctly, I don't think those examples are very strong arguments for SIT anyway.
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Broken Arrow
I
WordWolf
Have I mentioned lately that I'm actually getting quite a bit out of this thread? I don't just mean in a sense of psychology/sociology/criminology, but in a sense of Christian learning. The whole p
T-Bone
morals are man-made? Really?!?! please provide some documentation to back up that philosophical assertion. personally i lean toward the christian idea [that does have a biblical basis] that man is m
Ham
I dunno. and your "us".. who is it? It does not necessarily include "me"..
who are "they"?
see.. if we can define terms.. there will be far less misunderstanding here..
Isn't that what you care for?
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Ham
maybe the question.. should be, what are you trying to EXCLUDE from the term "sin".. any why?
why does *extremely* bad behavior get a "pass"?
"well.. it some good, sometimes.."
Is that it? No, this is not an interrogation. I'm really trying to understand why it is the way you think..
maybe I'm asking for too much..
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Ham
so what is "it"?
might I say.. neither of my kids are into my old, chosen religion..
past religion, present, or future..
the new religion has a conscience..
it's what is the word..
"involved".
wherever, or whatever that is..
service. world service..
if you haven't noticed.. that's where what's the word.. the victoid had a word for the roman catholics.. what was it.. but no, they've reached out to the world. Then there is the other version my other daughter embraced.. as "right wing" or whatever you could label them.. they absolutely CARE whether a pregnant lady in some other part of the world, has a diet with nutritional enough food, and supplements enough to supply enough vitamin A and D in their diet..
that was the best "Christmas card" I could have received.. I don't know if anyone else got one of these.. that they CARED..
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Broken Arrow
Waysider and others have been posting in various forums for years, including the Political Forum. It's not as if no one has had anything to say until you or I came along and brightened up their otherwise mundane lives. You can simply look at some of the other threads and find some rather, let's say, "spirited" discussions. What might strike you as odd is that neither you or I have any posted comments. Why? Because we weren't present. I understand you were a regular awhile back. Nevertheless, life goes on with or without us. So, be at peace. No one is chasing you from forum to forum. People were posting stuff regardless of whether you or I were there to share our great wisdom, and they'll continue to do so if we stop. That is, until Paw pulls the plug.
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Ham
this semester.. I chose an independent study..
Globally I'm "screwed"..
at this point who cares..
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waysider
Have you ever heard the expression, "Don't put all your eggs in one basket."? I think that's what has happened for a lot of people who bought into The Gospel According to Wierwille. Suppose you find out that what you thought was speaking in tongues was not really speaking in tongues at all? That would kind of leave you with an empty basket wouldn't it? It would seem to me that you haven't bothered to investigate this possibility with an open mind. I say that because you haven't even bothered to learn the correct spelling of glossolalia.
Do I worry about being born again? No, not really. I live my life the best I can and try to live by The Golden Rule. If that's not good enough, let the chips fall where they may. Wierwille would have done well to do the same. Instead, he abused his position of authority to destroy the lives of countless, well-meaning people.
Earn eternal life by preaching the evils of VPW? What makes you think I'm trying to earn eternal life? People have a right to know that The Way is/was a scam and that Wierille was a con artist. Would I be following The Golden Rule if I intentionally led them to believe otherwise?
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johniam
quote: It would seem to me that you haven't bothered to investigate this possibility with an open mind. I say that because you haven't even bothered to learn the correct spelling of glossolalia.
My feeling on this is...if it ain't broke, don't "fix it".
quote: Do I worry about being born again? No, not really. I live my life the best I can and try to live by The Golden Rule. If that's not good enough...
Not good enough? It's not necessary. The golden rule is not the criteria for salvation. Jesus said "sinners lend unto sinners hoping to receive again". Those "sinners" are practicing the golden rule aren't they? Sure! The whole point of salvation by Jesus Christ is that all of mankind is not "good enough" by their own works. That all of mankind (the world that God so loved) needs a savior. That without what Jesus accomplished by his death and resurrection, there would be no hope for mankind whatsoever.
quote: Earn eternal life by preaching the evils of VPW? What makes you think I'm trying to earn eternal life? People have a right to know that The Way is/was a scam and that Wierille was a con artist. Would I be following The Golden Rule if I intentionally led them to believe otherwise?
VP taught us to read the bible. That's not a scam.
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Broken Arrow
Waysider, you cite a University of Pennsylvania study of which there were only 5 participants and you point to that as proof that speaking in tongues isn't authentic. 5 participants is not a large enough study group for one to draw conclusions, we've discussed this before. Even 100 people isn't a large enough study group. You need about 1000 or more for your results to be conclusive.
What else do you have besides that study?
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johniam
quote: Mental illness
As Pentecostalism expanded in the 20th century and attracted the attention of the wider world, psychologists initially thought of glossolalia in pathological terms, thinking that it was caused by mental illness. In 1927 George Cutten described speakers in tongues as people of low mental abilities.
This explanation was effectively refuted in 1969 by a team from the University of Minnesota, who conducted an extensive study covering the United States, Mexico, Haiti and Colombia; they reached practitioners among Pentecostals, other Protestant groups, and Roman Catholics.
Cutten's contentions concerning psychopathology, quoted and re-quoted through the years, have taken on an aura of fact among non-Pentecostal churchmen who are critical of the movement. His assumption that glossolalia is linked to schizophrenia and hysteria has not been supported by any empirical evidence.
Subsequently, a 2003 statistical study in the religious journal Pastoral Psychology concluded that, among the 991 male evangelical clergy sampled, glossolalia was associated with stable extroversion, and contrary to some theories, completely unrelated to psychopathology.
AHA!!!!!! Would you look at THAT! What we have here...is a bunch of natural men who happen to have educational degrees...sitting in judgement of God's people. That Cutten guy (yeah, he'd like to do a little bit of 'cutten' all right) was so locked into his agenda that all he saw was mental instability, just like all LCM saw was AOS for a time. I definitely think VPs MINISTRY had a lot to do with the conclusion of the 2003 statistical study, that SIT is "stable extroversion". Good for them.
VP was a pioneer. He made SIT easy, practical, harmless. You should be asking why the devil still tries to do so much to queer SIT.
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geisha779
Johniam,
Take a fresh and close look at the scriptures and the answer is there concerning SIT. Why was Paul speaking about the genuine and the counterfeit to the Corinthians? Because there is such an animal maybe? Even Devils will affirm the Lordship of Jesus Christ ....James 2:19. Acts 19...Mark 5 and more references I can't think of off the top of my head.
Look at the plural use of tongue and then tongues in 1 Corinthians if truly interested. Paul was contrasting two different things. One counterfeit and one genuine. One from God and one from the devil. I know you said if it is not broken....but we are encouraged to examine.
If someone SIT before that class, before TWI....and some did....that is great. Many true Christians got caught up in the snare of TWI. If we "learned" SIT in PFAL or that was our experience and are continuing on the path of faith....maybe prayerfully examining the subject is a sound idea. What if it actually is as He(The Holy Spirit) wills.
When Jesus said if your eye offends you pluck it out......did He mean really pluck your eye out? When Paul said I would that ye all SIT was he really saying everyone could?
Maybe read up on prayer...it is beautiful, but when you begin to look at it ....it doesn't really support the idea that it was God's intention for us to speak to Him in a language we can't even understand.. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Onomatopoeia. Jesus warns us against this.
Even Peter, after witnessing the transfiguration, did not vaunt his experience over the prophetic word (OT) and Peter was warning about false teachers.
How can one who is truly born-again.....sell the Lord's death so cheaply? It cost God His beloved Son's suffering and death........and to assure people that they are heaven bound and all hell cannot stop them.....because of an experience which can be counterfeited......is beyond sinful.
It is a narrow way.
No true work of the spirit would ever produce the sins which were rampant in VP's life and the blatant corporate and continual sins of The Way Ministry.
At least not the Holy Spirit.
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WordWolf
Matthew 20: 25-28
25But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Matthew 25:43-45
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mark 10:42-44
42But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
43But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
44And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
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johniam
quote: When Paul said I would that ye all SIT was he really saying everyone could?
Yes, he was. Hey, Eve, did God really say thou shalt not eat of every tree of the garden???
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Bolshevik
whoa
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geisha779
You know....I was just trying to get you to consider language. This is what you come up with? I do understand because I went through the same thing. I have empathy for you.
A surface and "spoon fed" understanding of the scriptures is not going to help you to realize you were in an anti-Christian cult.
20 years since the truth about TWI has come out is more than enough time to begin to deal with what you were involved in.
They took your money and sold you easy believism. If you truly desire to know what it was you are immersed in....God is gracious and kind and will deliver you.
If this TWI doctrine is what you want....He will let you continue in it.
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skyrider
Gal. 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ...
Gal. 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel.
Which category does vpw & co. fall in? ......Works of the flesh (Gal. 5:19-21) OR fruit of the spirit (Gal. 5:22,23). Paul spoke these truths as well, right?
Argue all you want, but..........by their fruits YE SHALL KNOW THEM.
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geisha779
Also Johniam....since it seemed to sail over your head....my point was that possibly Paul was exaggerating. If you notice, he does this in other places. Something to consider.....
Jesus used hyperbole to make a point. These things are all over the scriptures.
What Paul is saying with this one statement has to jive with the rest of what he is saying and remember...he was sternly correcting the Corinthians.
You have mentioned several times that VP taught us how to read the bible. Well, he taught us how he read the bible......but, you really should try reading it for yourself. It is difficult because we were so programmed to read and understand it a certain way.
VP didn't do us any favors.
And just to add:
Throwing out half of a verse like Roman's 8:38 as if that is going to remind someone and snap them in line....doesn't work on people here. At least most people I have seen post.
That is a trigger which once initiated a certain response in us. A certain mindset. We all knew what that meant according to PFAL. There is no depth there.
People are now free to draw their own conclusions about the scripture.
Funny thing. Once I really read it. It took on a different hue for me. It is no longer a trigger.
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waysider
Wow! This is priceless. If SIT (as taught in The Way) is genuine, do you really think God would require the services of VP (you know he wasn't really a Dr., don't you?) Wierwille to make it "easy, practical, harmless"?
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Broken Arrow
Johniam, you said, "VP was a pioneer. He made SIT easy, practical, harmless. You should be asking why the devil still tries to do so much to queer SIT."
Personally I think the limitations of western thinking as well as the age of enlightenment makes it hard for westerners to grasp something like speaking in tongues and other spiritual gifts (Yeah, I said gifts). I don't think the fact Wierwille taught S.I.T. is any indication of him being a "pioneer" as you say. You said yourself, the Pentacostalists had been speaking in tongues for years. Maybe it wasn't part of the mainstream (whatever that is), but it certainly wasn't new. The Charismatics were also practicing speaking in tongues around that same time period that TWI was in its "growth spurt". Wierwille actually did this important aspect of Christianity an injustice in that he endeavored to put restrictions on the movement of the Spirit. Like everything else, he had to control it.
I don't think he was accurate on his teaching of interpretation of tongues or prophecy, but that's just me.
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johniam
quote: Which category does vpw & co. fall in? ......Works of the flesh (Gal. 5:19-21) OR fruit of the spirit (Gal. 5:22,23). Paul spoke these truths as well, right?
Those of us who are born again have both fruit of the spirit AND works of the flesh. We will get no rewards (inheritance) for works of the flesh (vain repetitions, church attendance, abstination from vice, community service, and all the things that some religious people do to show themselves godly), but for listening to God's still small voice and ministering grace to the hearers and being the kind of Christian that others want to be like and be around, that's part of the fruit of the spirit. We've all been that person.
Even Jesus' own group of disciples had a guy who was in charge of the money who let it get to his head and made a very bad choice. What Christian group are you going to possibly join where something like that can't happen? Nobody's going to betray Jesus again, but every fellowship or church is going to have money to watch over, people to steward, spiritual curriculum to consider, activities to plan, and, oh, yeah, imperfection in the very Christians who oversee it all. The body of Christ is as good as it gets right now.
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Broken Arrow
By the way, didn't Wierwille have a doctorate in Homiletics? Granted, it was from a "degree mill", but didn't he have a bonified degree? I realize that he allowed everyone to think his degree was in theology.
What are you talking about? People betray Jesus all the time. Oh, that's right, VP taught that Christ is "absent". Now there's a scintillating truth.
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johniam
quote: I don't think the fact Wierwille taught S.I.T. is any indication of him being a "pioneer" as you say. You said yourself, the Pentacostalists had been speaking in tongues for years. Maybe it wasn't part of the mainstream (whatever that is), but it certainly wasn't new.
It hasn't been "new" since the day of Pentecost. In the book of Acts SIT was the proof that someone was a Christian. The 5 examples in pfal document that. Today, and basically since before the end of the first century, SIT has been replaced by creeds and nonbiblical doctrines like the trinity. Pentecostals didn't make SIT easy, practical, OR harmless. Their people who SITd had to roll around on the floor, handle snakes, throw hymnals in the air, and other self demeaning stuff. Not so pfal grads. VPs ministry proved that anyone could SIT without having to act like an idiot.
In the session called Living Victoriously in God's peace, VP said he got a phone call immediately before coming on stage that really teed him off. His solution? "I waited until I got a sober thought, then SITd like crazy. It still works, baby!" That is practical.
quote: Wierwille actually did this important aspect of Christianity an injustice in that he endeavored to put restrictions on the movement of the Spirit.
1 Cor. 14:27 - if any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or, at the most by three, and that by course, and let one interpret.
v.34 - Let your women keep silence in the churches...
v.35 - if they will learn anything let them ask their husbands at home...
v.37 - if any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
v.40 - Let all things be done decently and in order.
I guess VP wasn't the only one putting "restrictions on the movement of the spirit".
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Broken Arrow
We don't necessarily have the fruit of the spirit by being born again. You already know that. I hope you know that fruit of the spirit is a whole lot more than being the type of Christian that others would want to be like and be around. If I don't have to quote Gal. 5:22, 23 because you already know it describes quite plainly what the fruit of the spirit is. I will however quote verses 24-26, "Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited...."
We have Christ, we walk with Christ, we chose Christ for two reasons. One is to have eternal life and the other is to overcome sin. If someone has a problem with that and thinks these words are "too religious", or burdensome, then that person has a problem with Gal. 5:24-26.
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Broken Arrow
Okay, you make a good point here. I was thinking more about that if things didn't happen in a certain way, it was often considered "off", or even "devilish" in TWI. Case in point: A person came to a twig one time who liked to say "amen", and, "Uh huh", a lot during the teaching. He also said other things like, "Preach it! Preach it!" We thought the guy was possessed and discouraged him from doing this. I find out decades later this type of behavior is fairly common in certain churches. Others raise their hands while praying. So? Anything wrong with raising one's hands?
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Broken Arrow
I don't agree. I don't think the text supports that tongues is (or was) THE proof of someone being a Christian. I believe that people looked for "fruit" and confession (what a person talks about). Tongues may have been part of it too, I dunno. The 5 examples in PFAL simply show that speaking in tongues was practiced in Bible times. I always thought that's what he was going for in that section of the class. If I remember correctly, I don't think those examples are very strong arguments for SIT anyway.
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