We have all been given the tools to decide right and wrong. They're called brains. Morally superior means you think you're "better" than someone else.
Thank you for proving my point.
The members of St. Vic's inner circle apparently thought they were morally superior because they chose what was right and what was wrong.
When you get the benefit of defining the game, you can always draw the lines in your favor. This is the very essense of moral superiority: drawing the lines in your faveor, so your always right and everyone else is always wrong.
Gee, that even sounds a little like Saint Vic, doesn't it?
please provide some documentation to back up that philosophical assertion.
Gen.6:5 - and God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen.8:20,21 - and Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in His heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; FOR THE IMAGINATION OF MAN'S HEART IS EVIL FROM HIS YOUTH; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Many people today would consider the slaughter of animals and birds immoral, yet God says it smelled good.
Gal.3:24,25 - Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Heb.7:19 - For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did, by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Yes, God gave the law, which included the 10 commandments and many other commandments, but God knew the law would take mankind only so far. Christ had to come into the world sinless like Adam and Eve, and he had to STAY that way, unlike Adam and Eve, which he DID! Christ already did the work; we don't have to. VP said it best in chapter 6 of the blue book, the counsel of the Lord, that mankind cannot produce spiritual fruit by trying to perfect his flesh. Gal.5:19-21 lists some works of the flesh and verses 22,23 list the fruit of the spirit, ALL of it. If avoiding the works of the flesh was the object, then why weren't ALL of them listed? It says "and such like" in verse 21. If having the fruit of the spirit was dependent on avoiding the works of the flesh, then shouldn't ALL works of the flesh be listed?
It doesn't say we have either the works of the flesh OR the fruit of the spirit, one or the other. The truth is we all have both. Those not born again only have works of the flesh. Tom Burke's line comes to mind, "he looks as righteous as an eagle scout, but the wrong seed's in him and it won't come out". This is possible. Works of the flesh can look oh, so religious and legitimate and safe. But we who are born again have the option of fruit of the spirit. This doesn't get rid of our flesh and the works thereof, it just gives us an option (escape clause) to act virtuously despite our having flesh and the works thereof. It doesn't guarantee that a born again one will always act virtuously, either. God doesn't control us; we're not robots.
It is the utmost in absurdity to believe that "well, I don't DO the works of the flesh, therefore I am SPIRITUAL and every thought in my head is the word of God". Isn't that kinda what LCM thought during his reign of terror? Yes, he thought he was morally superior and look where it got him? God could give us enough morals to cover every second of our lives like LCM did from 1994-2000 to those poor SOBs still in then. But it's totally up to each individual to apply morals, and none of us will do it perfectly; that's why Christ had to come. Therefore I say, morals are man made.
It is the utmost in absurdity to believe that "well, I don't DO the works of the flesh, therefore I am SPIRITUAL and every thought in my head is the word of God". Isn't that kinda what LCM thought during his reign of terror? Yes, he thought he was morally superior and look where it got him? God could give us enough morals to cover every second of our lives like LCM did from 1994-2000 to those poor SOBs still in then. But it's totally up to each individual to apply morals, and none of us will do it perfectly; that's why Christ had to come. Therefore I say, morals are man made.
In the matter of morals:
A persons first and foremost question is always: do I want to live? Most times the answer is yes.
Well, once you decide you want to live you have to decide what type of life do you want to live. For this you need morals.
Now the next obvious step is: where do I get my morals from? Jerry Springer? McDonald's? Karl Marx? the Koran?
Once you've decided your source of morals, you have to interpret them. Thou shall not kill, but what about war? What about abortion? What about that guy that's trying to hurt your family?
Honesty's the best policy, but what about that quarter left in the pay phone? What about that extra candy bar you get from the vending machine? What if somebody sends you a check for more than you were supposed to get? What if the cashier gives you too much change?
This is what I believe lies at the source of the confusion here: diserning between actual morals and interpretation of morals.
Actual morals come from whatever spiritual guide you choose: Jerry Springer or the Bible. Interpretation of morals, however, are man made.
An example that comes to mind: God said no work on the Sabbarth day. Yet the new testement often refers to a Sabbath days journey. This was because the Jews took the moral (no work on the Sabbath) and interpreted the word work into how far you could travel (a Sabbath Days journey).
Some people are a little firmer than others with their morals. You won't walk up to a muslim and tell him to loosen up, nor would you say they're being morally superior. Their morals structure just makes them more rigid.
But then we turn to Saint Vic's demented circus. He preached black and white morals (Your for God or your against God; the word, the word and nothing but the word), while being not having any morals himself. And thereby lies the definition of moral superiority: don't do as I do. do as I say. He told everyone else sex outside of marrage was wrong, meanwhile his motorcoach had a revolving door. He told everyone else the word was the end all and be all, and all he really cared about was money.
Now, if your in a position of authority, you should set an example. People are looking to you for guidance. You want an example: If Werewolf had been the spiritual heavy he claimed do you think LCM would have turned out the way he did? I'll lay odds he would have been a whole different person, because the things he would have been taught would have been fruits of the spirit and not works of the flesh.
First off.....the law was to point people to Christ and this does not denigrate the law, it elevates it. Paul said in Romans:
7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet." 8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.
Paul is telling us right here God gives morality.
Funny how VP used dispensationalism to denigrate the law.....then correctly told us Christ was better....and in the next breath told us Christ was absent. . . . . no wonder they had no moral compass. If you do away with morality, which comes from the laws or commands.........or if you deny the laws you are also denying the lawgiver. That is idolatry.
Who is speaking of works to earn salvation? No one I have read. There is a difference in perfecting the flesh to earn salvation than in loving and believing in God, honoring Him and putting our faith in Him. Glorifying God in our thoughts, words, deeds, and life. Big difference. Jesus did the work so we don't have to, but what are we commanded to do? And what illustrates our love for God? Obedience. It also illustrates our faith in Him. True salvation, is reflected in the lives of true believers by their actions. Clear enough?
Sanctification is abstaining from the lusts of the flesh......it is what propels us to good and Godly works.
There is an opposing false believer also clearly portrayed in scripture. They are also revealed by their actions. It is by the lust of the flesh.
VP's life and actions...tell us which one he was.
Sure, someone who acts religious might fool some people, but someone who indulges like VP did....shouldn't be able to fool anyone.
"If you love me, keep my commands." John 14:15
But he said, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!" Luke 11:28
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.' Matthew 7: 21-23
Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world. James 1:27
When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs." He said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep." He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep. John 21 15-17
But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by myworks. James 2:18
So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." John 8:31,32
No servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money." Luke 16:13
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, ... Matthew 52:31-46
Who is speaking of works to earn salvation? No one I have read.
Me either. I spoke of producing spiritual fruit by trying to perfect your flesh. You can't produce fruit of the spirit unless you already have salvation.
quote: He told everyone else sex outside of marrage was wrong, meanwhile his motorcoach had a revolving door.
As I said, there is no guarantee that a born again one will always act virtuously.
quote:
Paul is telling us right here God gives morality.
God gave mankind the capacity to make moral decisions.
Romans2:14 - For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these having not the law are a law unto themselves;
These heathen made moral decisions that were pleasing to God.
verse 15 - Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;
But they aren't/weren't born again. All the law could enable them to do was accuse or excuse one another. The law could not give life.
3:20-22 - Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin, but now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all that believe, for there is no difference.
No difference between VP, you, and me. This is supposed to be GOOD news.
No, I'm not in his mind, but then what's the verse in proverbs about the mouth producing whats in the heart. Your actions reflect your inner nature.
With this unserstanding, why was the ministry created? To move the word? I doubt that. What was the emphasis put on in the ministry? Jesus Christ or money? Seems to me if the emphasis was on moving the word, PFAL would have been free.
Also, if the emphasis was on moving the word, ABS would have been voluntery. There wouldn't have been no push to milk believers of their 10%, they would have been so blessed they would have gladly given it to the ministry.
Also, if the word was the purpose for the ministry, you wouldn't have an inner circle living in the lap of luxury while the people supporting it are working minimum wage jobs to just eek by.
No difference between VP, you, and me. This is supposed to be GOOD news.
Sorry, there's a major difference between Saint Vic and me. I would never intentional hurt another human being. If by chance I accidently injure another human being, I feel remorseful for it and try to learn from the error so it doesn't happen again. This is what I do about minor day to day injuries. Nonetheless, the atrocities Saint Vic commited.
please provide some documentation to back up that philosophical assertion.
Gen.6:5 - and God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually....
....Yes, God gave the law, which included the 10 commandments and many other commandments, but God knew the law would take mankind only so far.....
......It is the utmost in absurdity to believe that "well, I don't DO the works of the flesh, therefore I am SPIRITUAL and every thought in my head is the word of God". Isn't that kinda what LCM thought during his reign of terror? Yes, he thought he was morally superior and look where it got him? God could give us enough morals to cover every second of our lives like LCM did from 1994-2000 to those poor SOBs still in then. But it's totally up to each individual to apply morals, and none of us will do it perfectly; that's why Christ had to come. Therefore I say, morals are man made.
Your post does NOT address my request of providing references for your assertion that morals are man-made.
As a matter of fact, you have some confusing double-talk in it but even so it appears you actually admit to my point of God setting a moral standard – in that He gave us the 10 commandments as well as a bunch of other laws….your post just avoids addressing the morals are man-made issue entirely – and goes off on a tangent about works of the flesh/fruit of the spirit.
God's moral code has ALWAYS and STILL IS in effect as shown in Romans 13:9 NIV The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Jesus gave a similar summary of the law in Matthew 22: 36 & ff – love God and neighbor.
These commandments of God - are they not moral dictates that make ethical demands on our hearts? Since they are a moral standard authored by God - then they are NOT man-made.
~~
...and to reiterate the point i was making in my previous post - it appears in scripture that there's one aspect of the image and likeness of God that resides in man which enables him to have some sense of God's moral code - intrinsically - which is what the Romans 2 reference regarding the Gentiles/conscience seems to suggest.
Your post does NOT address my request of providing references for your assertion that morals are man-made.
As a matter of fact, you have some confusing double-talk in it but even so it appears you actually admit to my point of God setting a moral standard – in that He gave us the 10 commandments as well as a bunch of other laws….your post just avoids addressing the morals are man-made issue entirely – and goes off on a tangent about works of the flesh/fruit of the spirit.
God's moral code has ALWAYS and STILL IS in effect as shown in Romans 13:9 NIV The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Jesus gave a similar summary of the law in Matthew 22: 36 & ff – love God and neighbor.
These commandments of God - are they not moral dictates that make ethical demands on our hearts? Since they are a moral standard authored by God - then they are NOT man-made.
~~
...and to reiterate the point i was making in my previous post - it appears in scripture that there's one aspect of the image and likeness of God that resides in man which enables him to have some sense of God's moral code - intrinsically - which is what the Romans 2 reference regarding the Gentiles/conscience seems to suggest.
[i noticed some time back that vpw's summary led to
"DO AS YOU FOOL WELL PLEASE."
That was vpw's standard. That was vpw's goal.
That was what vpw said in conclusion, too.
He claimed that the LAW had been boiled down to two rules,
then discarded both.
He said it was all subsumed in "Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself."
He then said that "if you love God, and love your neighbor as yourself,
then you can do as you fool well please."
He never spent any time on what either would entail, however-
probably because his goal was not "love God and love your neighbor as yourself",
(for his actions showed neither), but his coda of
"do as you fool well please."
I mean, think about it. "Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength,
and love your neighbor as yourself"
IS THE OPPOSITE OF
vpw's "do as you fool well please."
The one who cares about God will seek to do the things that please God-
and will seek to bless others because God likes that.
The one who only cares about himself will "do as he fool well pleases."
In hindsight, vpw's rule is less kind than Christians in general, in all the
churches, and is less kind than the rule the wiccans/pagans follow.
Their rule is "IF IT HURTS NO ONE, do what you will."
If vpw had even the morals of the pagans and wiccans, he would not have
drugged, molested, nor raped others. Other Christians just find this level
of morals horrifying.
Look- we love Daddy and want to make Him happy because He's so nice.
So, He tells us what actions make him happy, and we do them.
We don't need Him to threaten to punish us for not doing them.
We love Him and want to make Him proud.
How can anyone possibly have trouble understanding this?]
and that's what it seems to be getting here. At least from some of us..
one excuse, one justification for pure evil, after another..
a few quoted verses, how *man*'s heart is depraved..
if you think I am in anything for the money, fame and fortune, riches and wealth beyond any reasonable expectation here..
I would ask those who really, really know me..
some of them only WISH I were a hundred times more ambitious..
my life was far from "covered" or "protected" in the old man's "ministry"..
some were even less.
so what I am seeing here.. outside of a few historic incidents. That is, meet the wife, father a couple of godly children.. and I would have done the same, taken the same actions, if I were inducted into the Jehovah's Witnesses.. or Scientology.. or.. whatever..
outside of what NATURE provided. There really was no advantage..
Who is speaking of works to earn salvation? No one I have read.
Me either. I spoke of producing spiritual fruit by trying to perfect your flesh. You can't produce fruit of the spirit unless you already have salvation.
quote: He told everyone else sex outside of marrage was wrong, meanwhile his motorcoach had a revolving door.
As I said, there is no guarantee that a born again one will always act virtuously.
quote:
Paul is telling us right here God gives morality.
God gave mankind the capacity to make moral decisions.
Romans2:14 - For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these having not the law are a law unto themselves;
These heathen made moral decisions that were pleasing to God.
verse 15 - Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;
But they aren't/weren't born again. All the law could enable them to do was accuse or excuse one another. The law could not give life.
3:20-22 - Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin, but now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all that believe, for there is no difference.
No difference between VP, you, and me. This is supposed to be GOOD news.
What exactly do you think fruit of the Spirit is?? Some mystical magical unseen thing....not evident in a Christian walk? Paul is drawing a contrast between a Spirit filled life which naturally produces the fruit of the Spirit and a carnal life independent of God. It is a contrast. So yes, if someone is living a Spirit filled life....they are going to live a Godly and virtuous life....that is EXACTLY what it means. It doesn't mean they habitually abuse people in the name of God. Sorry, that is a bunch of crap.
It is imagery that was very familiar. It is all over Proverbs!! Jesus Himself used the same imagery to tell us what to LOOK for in someone's life to see if they were true or false. A GOOD tree bears GOOD fruit....a bad tree bears BAD fruit.
You seem to confuse perfecting of the flesh with the natural Godly outcome of a love relationship with Jesus. You don't live carnally and have some secret good fruit hidden in your spirit. It is manifest in your life. There is no getting around that.
VP's life is no longer hidden. We don't have an excuse anymore for not recognizing the fruit he bore in his life. No excuse. Obvious to me right now is his twisting of scripture. You really should burn that Blue Book.
Exactly what is the fruit produced from living carnally? Independent of God. The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
How much plainer can it be.
As for whatever it was you were trying to say about Romans.....here....you quoted it yourself. " . . . . for by the law is the knowledge of sin." What is sin . . . . a moral act? Is it an offense against God? Is God moral? Is God righteous? Meaning right. So, where do right morals come from? Man or God?
The bible is replete with morality johniam, and it is replete with commandments and what true transformation looks like. VP never taught us that. It was all grace and we were going to sin because we had flesh so it didn't really matter. Sin, it actually does matter. A sin filled life does not produce love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Sin matters to God....He gave His Son because of it...do you really think he wants us to continue in it?
Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.
Sin is what you have to leave behind if you want to follow Christ. People don't want to hear it. They love their sins. What do you think attracted many of us to TWI?
please provide some documentation to back up that philosophical assertion.
It is the utmost in absurdity to believe that "well, I don't DO the works of the flesh, therefore I am SPIRITUAL and every thought in my head is the word of God". Isn't that kinda what LCM thought during his reign of terror? Yes, he thought he was morally superior and look where it got him? God could give us enough morals to cover every second of our lives like LCM did from 1994-2000 to those poor SOBs still in then. But it's totally up to each individual to apply morals, and none of us will do it perfectly; that's why Christ had to come. Therefore I say, morals are man made.
My viewpoint differs. I think that a lack of morals is man-made. Here's a workable definition:
Morals - adj. - of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong
There are principled men and women outside of Christianity whose lives can stand on their own before a just judge.
Similarly there are unprincipled men and women inside Christianity whose lives cannot stand on their own before a just judge.
However, to deny God upon either premise is a fool's game.
Jesus pretty much told it like it was...he didn't react...He stated, He declared, and He warned. . . . seems if someone puts their faith in Him....they might actually take Him seriously. If God is unable to keep His own....correct His own....guide His own....and save people from their sins...what is the point of believing?
It is a pretty ineffectual God who has unprincipled people like VP standing for Him.
yes. . . . you got it.........and if God has a child...He is pretty much willing and capable of straightening His child out....and keeping him that way....God is not a slacker. Look at Paul. :) He blinded the guy! But hey, it worked. He didn't screw up again.
eventually, all of our eyes will have to become accustomed to the light..
I think so to...but, not until we get a serious ocular revamp. I catch glimpses now and then.....but, I would not be able to stand the full on light. I am not ready yet. Someday.
[i noticed some time back that vpw's summary led to
"DO AS YOU FOOL WELL PLEASE."
That was vpw's standard. That was vpw's goal.
That was what vpw said in conclusion, too.
He claimed that the LAW had been boiled down to two rules,
then discarded both.
He said it was all subsumed in "Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself."
He then said that "if you love God, and love your neighbor as yourself,
then you can do as you fool well please."
He never spent any time on what either would entail, however-
probably because his goal was not "love God and love your neighbor as yourself",
(for his actions showed neither), but his coda of
"do as you fool well please."
I mean, think about it. "Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength,
and love your neighbor as yourself"
IS THE OPPOSITE OF
vpw's "do as you fool well please."
The one who cares about God will seek to do the things that please God-
and will seek to bless others because God likes that.
The one who only cares about himself will "do as he fool well pleases."
In hindsight, vpw's rule is less kind than Christians in general, in all the
churches, and is less kind than the rule the wiccans/pagans follow.
Their rule is "IF IT HURTS NO ONE, do what you will."
If vpw had even the morals of the pagans and wiccans, he would not have
drugged, molested, nor raped others. Other Christians just find this level
of morals horrifying.
Look- we love Daddy and want to make Him happy because He's so nice.
So, He tells us what actions make him happy, and we do them.
We don't need Him to threaten to punish us for not doing them.
We love Him and want to make Him proud.
How can anyone possibly have trouble understanding this?]
great points WordWolf !
i think we ought to call it variations on a theme; vp had numerous ways of asserting this same malleable code of ethics:
love God & neighbor and do as you fool well please
what i may allow in my life you may not allow in yours and visa versa [used often in many of his live teachings]
~~
and several i remember from the pajama party mentioned in my post # 460 - after showing us the bestiality video he addressed the possibility that some of us may have been kinda weirded out by it - saying such things as
unto the pure all things are pure
when you become spiritually mature you can handle anything
i've so renewed my mind that things like this don't bother me
he said he showed us the video out of his concern for us as potential leaders who can't afford to be shocked by anything if we want to help people - he tied that into anything done in the love of God is okay - like him preparing us for extremely unusual counseling situations - it takes the love of God to do that
~~
folks here can probably mention more variations on a theme.....but it was the same old theme wasn't it - i can do as i fool well please !
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Broken Arrow
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WordWolf
Have I mentioned lately that I'm actually getting quite a bit out of this thread? I don't just mean in a sense of psychology/sociology/criminology, but in a sense of Christian learning. The whole p
T-Bone
morals are man-made? Really?!?! please provide some documentation to back up that philosophical assertion. personally i lean toward the christian idea [that does have a biblical basis] that man is m
So_crates
Thank you for proving my point.
The members of St. Vic's inner circle apparently thought they were morally superior because they chose what was right and what was wrong.
When you get the benefit of defining the game, you can always draw the lines in your favor. This is the very essense of moral superiority: drawing the lines in your faveor, so your always right and everyone else is always wrong.
Gee, that even sounds a little like Saint Vic, doesn't it?
SoCrates
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johniam
quote:
morals are man-made? Really?!?!
please provide some documentation to back up that philosophical assertion.
Gen.6:5 - and God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen.8:20,21 - and Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in His heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; FOR THE IMAGINATION OF MAN'S HEART IS EVIL FROM HIS YOUTH; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Many people today would consider the slaughter of animals and birds immoral, yet God says it smelled good.
Gal.3:24,25 - Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Heb.7:19 - For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did, by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Yes, God gave the law, which included the 10 commandments and many other commandments, but God knew the law would take mankind only so far. Christ had to come into the world sinless like Adam and Eve, and he had to STAY that way, unlike Adam and Eve, which he DID! Christ already did the work; we don't have to. VP said it best in chapter 6 of the blue book, the counsel of the Lord, that mankind cannot produce spiritual fruit by trying to perfect his flesh. Gal.5:19-21 lists some works of the flesh and verses 22,23 list the fruit of the spirit, ALL of it. If avoiding the works of the flesh was the object, then why weren't ALL of them listed? It says "and such like" in verse 21. If having the fruit of the spirit was dependent on avoiding the works of the flesh, then shouldn't ALL works of the flesh be listed?
It doesn't say we have either the works of the flesh OR the fruit of the spirit, one or the other. The truth is we all have both. Those not born again only have works of the flesh. Tom Burke's line comes to mind, "he looks as righteous as an eagle scout, but the wrong seed's in him and it won't come out". This is possible. Works of the flesh can look oh, so religious and legitimate and safe. But we who are born again have the option of fruit of the spirit. This doesn't get rid of our flesh and the works thereof, it just gives us an option (escape clause) to act virtuously despite our having flesh and the works thereof. It doesn't guarantee that a born again one will always act virtuously, either. God doesn't control us; we're not robots.
It is the utmost in absurdity to believe that "well, I don't DO the works of the flesh, therefore I am SPIRITUAL and every thought in my head is the word of God". Isn't that kinda what LCM thought during his reign of terror? Yes, he thought he was morally superior and look where it got him? God could give us enough morals to cover every second of our lives like LCM did from 1994-2000 to those poor SOBs still in then. But it's totally up to each individual to apply morals, and none of us will do it perfectly; that's why Christ had to come. Therefore I say, morals are man made.
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So_crates
In the matter of morals:
A persons first and foremost question is always: do I want to live? Most times the answer is yes.
Well, once you decide you want to live you have to decide what type of life do you want to live. For this you need morals.
Now the next obvious step is: where do I get my morals from? Jerry Springer? McDonald's? Karl Marx? the Koran?
Once you've decided your source of morals, you have to interpret them. Thou shall not kill, but what about war? What about abortion? What about that guy that's trying to hurt your family?
Honesty's the best policy, but what about that quarter left in the pay phone? What about that extra candy bar you get from the vending machine? What if somebody sends you a check for more than you were supposed to get? What if the cashier gives you too much change?
This is what I believe lies at the source of the confusion here: diserning between actual morals and interpretation of morals.
Actual morals come from whatever spiritual guide you choose: Jerry Springer or the Bible. Interpretation of morals, however, are man made.
An example that comes to mind: God said no work on the Sabbarth day. Yet the new testement often refers to a Sabbath days journey. This was because the Jews took the moral (no work on the Sabbath) and interpreted the word work into how far you could travel (a Sabbath Days journey).
Some people are a little firmer than others with their morals. You won't walk up to a muslim and tell him to loosen up, nor would you say they're being morally superior. Their morals structure just makes them more rigid.
But then we turn to Saint Vic's demented circus. He preached black and white morals (Your for God or your against God; the word, the word and nothing but the word), while being not having any morals himself. And thereby lies the definition of moral superiority: don't do as I do. do as I say. He told everyone else sex outside of marrage was wrong, meanwhile his motorcoach had a revolving door. He told everyone else the word was the end all and be all, and all he really cared about was money.
Now, if your in a position of authority, you should set an example. People are looking to you for guidance. You want an example: If Werewolf had been the spiritual heavy he claimed do you think LCM would have turned out the way he did? I'll lay odds he would have been a whole different person, because the things he would have been taught would have been fruits of the spirit and not works of the flesh.
SoCrates
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geisha779
First off.....the law was to point people to Christ and this does not denigrate the law, it elevates it. Paul said in Romans:
7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet." 8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.
Paul is telling us right here God gives morality.
Funny how VP used dispensationalism to denigrate the law.....then correctly told us Christ was better....and in the next breath told us Christ was absent. . . . . no wonder they had no moral compass. If you do away with morality, which comes from the laws or commands.........or if you deny the laws you are also denying the lawgiver. That is idolatry.
Who is speaking of works to earn salvation? No one I have read. There is a difference in perfecting the flesh to earn salvation than in loving and believing in God, honoring Him and putting our faith in Him. Glorifying God in our thoughts, words, deeds, and life. Big difference. Jesus did the work so we don't have to, but what are we commanded to do? And what illustrates our love for God? Obedience. It also illustrates our faith in Him. True salvation, is reflected in the lives of true believers by their actions. Clear enough?
Sanctification is abstaining from the lusts of the flesh......it is what propels us to good and Godly works.
There is an opposing false believer also clearly portrayed in scripture. They are also revealed by their actions. It is by the lust of the flesh.
VP's life and actions...tell us which one he was.
Sure, someone who acts religious might fool some people, but someone who indulges like VP did....shouldn't be able to fool anyone.
"If you love me, keep my commands." John 14:15
But he said, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!" Luke 11:28
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.' Matthew 7: 21-23
Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world. James 1:27
When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs." He said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep." He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep. John 21 15-17
But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. James 2:18
So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." John 8:31,32
No servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money." Luke 16:13
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, ... Matthew 52:31-46
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johniam
quote: and all he really cared about was money.
You don't know that.
quote:
Who is speaking of works to earn salvation? No one I have read.
Me either. I spoke of producing spiritual fruit by trying to perfect your flesh. You can't produce fruit of the spirit unless you already have salvation.
quote: He told everyone else sex outside of marrage was wrong, meanwhile his motorcoach had a revolving door.
As I said, there is no guarantee that a born again one will always act virtuously.
quote:
Paul is telling us right here God gives morality.
God gave mankind the capacity to make moral decisions.
Romans2:14 - For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these having not the law are a law unto themselves;
These heathen made moral decisions that were pleasing to God.
verse 15 - Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;
But they aren't/weren't born again. All the law could enable them to do was accuse or excuse one another. The law could not give life.
3:20-22 - Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin, but now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all that believe, for there is no difference.
No difference between VP, you, and me. This is supposed to be GOOD news.
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So_crates
No, I'm not in his mind, but then what's the verse in proverbs about the mouth producing whats in the heart. Your actions reflect your inner nature.
With this unserstanding, why was the ministry created? To move the word? I doubt that. What was the emphasis put on in the ministry? Jesus Christ or money? Seems to me if the emphasis was on moving the word, PFAL would have been free.
Also, if the emphasis was on moving the word, ABS would have been voluntery. There wouldn't have been no push to milk believers of their 10%, they would have been so blessed they would have gladly given it to the ministry.
Also, if the word was the purpose for the ministry, you wouldn't have an inner circle living in the lap of luxury while the people supporting it are working minimum wage jobs to just eek by.
Sorry, there's a major difference between Saint Vic and me. I would never intentional hurt another human being. If by chance I accidently injure another human being, I feel remorseful for it and try to learn from the error so it doesn't happen again. This is what I do about minor day to day injuries. Nonetheless, the atrocities Saint Vic commited.
SoCrates
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T-Bone
Your post does NOT address my request of providing references for your assertion that morals are man-made.
As a matter of fact, you have some confusing double-talk in it but even so it appears you actually admit to my point of God setting a moral standard – in that He gave us the 10 commandments as well as a bunch of other laws….your post just avoids addressing the morals are man-made issue entirely – and goes off on a tangent about works of the flesh/fruit of the spirit.
God's moral code has ALWAYS and STILL IS in effect as shown in Romans 13:9 NIV The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Jesus gave a similar summary of the law in Matthew 22: 36 & ff – love God and neighbor.
These commandments of God - are they not moral dictates that make ethical demands on our hearts? Since they are a moral standard authored by God - then they are NOT man-made.
~~
...and to reiterate the point i was making in my previous post - it appears in scripture that there's one aspect of the image and likeness of God that resides in man which enables him to have some sense of God's moral code - intrinsically - which is what the Romans 2 reference regarding the Gentiles/conscience seems to suggest.
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Ham
seems to be just giving me one more reason to abandon the bible, entirely.
If that's god's religion, he can keep it..
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WordWolf
[i noticed some time back that vpw's summary led to
"DO AS YOU FOOL WELL PLEASE."
That was vpw's standard. That was vpw's goal.
That was what vpw said in conclusion, too.
He claimed that the LAW had been boiled down to two rules,
then discarded both.
He said it was all subsumed in "Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself."
He then said that "if you love God, and love your neighbor as yourself,
then you can do as you fool well please."
He never spent any time on what either would entail, however-
probably because his goal was not "love God and love your neighbor as yourself",
(for his actions showed neither), but his coda of
"do as you fool well please."
I mean, think about it. "Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength,
and love your neighbor as yourself"
IS THE OPPOSITE OF
vpw's "do as you fool well please."
The one who cares about God will seek to do the things that please God-
and will seek to bless others because God likes that.
The one who only cares about himself will "do as he fool well pleases."
In hindsight, vpw's rule is less kind than Christians in general, in all the
churches, and is less kind than the rule the wiccans/pagans follow.
Their rule is "IF IT HURTS NO ONE, do what you will."
If vpw had even the morals of the pagans and wiccans, he would not have
drugged, molested, nor raped others. Other Christians just find this level
of morals horrifying.
Look- we love Daddy and want to make Him happy because He's so nice.
So, He tells us what actions make him happy, and we do them.
We don't need Him to threaten to punish us for not doing them.
We love Him and want to make Him proud.
How can anyone possibly have trouble understanding this?]
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Ham
so..
we have a *ministry* that leads nowhere.
needs constant, and what's the word..
I'll remember tomorrow..
but it needs constant defending. And excusing..
you have to be kidding..
Maintenance! that's the word.
and that's what it seems to be getting here. At least from some of us..
one excuse, one justification for pure evil, after another..
a few quoted verses, how *man*'s heart is depraved..
if you think I am in anything for the money, fame and fortune, riches and wealth beyond any reasonable expectation here..
I would ask those who really, really know me..
some of them only WISH I were a hundred times more ambitious..
my life was far from "covered" or "protected" in the old man's "ministry"..
some were even less.
so what I am seeing here.. outside of a few historic incidents. That is, meet the wife, father a couple of godly children.. and I would have done the same, taken the same actions, if I were inducted into the Jehovah's Witnesses.. or Scientology.. or.. whatever..
outside of what NATURE provided. There really was no advantage..
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geisha779
What exactly do you think fruit of the Spirit is?? Some mystical magical unseen thing....not evident in a Christian walk? Paul is drawing a contrast between a Spirit filled life which naturally produces the fruit of the Spirit and a carnal life independent of God. It is a contrast. So yes, if someone is living a Spirit filled life....they are going to live a Godly and virtuous life....that is EXACTLY what it means. It doesn't mean they habitually abuse people in the name of God. Sorry, that is a bunch of crap.
It is imagery that was very familiar. It is all over Proverbs!! Jesus Himself used the same imagery to tell us what to LOOK for in someone's life to see if they were true or false. A GOOD tree bears GOOD fruit....a bad tree bears BAD fruit.
You seem to confuse perfecting of the flesh with the natural Godly outcome of a love relationship with Jesus. You don't live carnally and have some secret good fruit hidden in your spirit. It is manifest in your life. There is no getting around that.
VP's life is no longer hidden. We don't have an excuse anymore for not recognizing the fruit he bore in his life. No excuse. Obvious to me right now is his twisting of scripture. You really should burn that Blue Book.
Exactly what is the fruit produced from living carnally? Independent of God. The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
How much plainer can it be.
As for whatever it was you were trying to say about Romans.....here....you quoted it yourself. " . . . . for by the law is the knowledge of sin." What is sin . . . . a moral act? Is it an offense against God? Is God moral? Is God righteous? Meaning right. So, where do right morals come from? Man or God?
The bible is replete with morality johniam, and it is replete with commandments and what true transformation looks like. VP never taught us that. It was all grace and we were going to sin because we had flesh so it didn't really matter. Sin, it actually does matter. A sin filled life does not produce love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Sin matters to God....He gave His Son because of it...do you really think he wants us to continue in it?
Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.
Sin is what you have to leave behind if you want to follow Christ. People don't want to hear it. They love their sins. What do you think attracted many of us to TWI?
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So_crates
Thereby telling you where the safe harbor was. The safe harbor was for the inner circle.
Even to this day, its still a safe harbor, because some will defend and excuse any antisocial behavior 25 hours a day.
SoCrates
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chockfull
My viewpoint differs. I think that a lack of morals is man-made. Here's a workable definition:
Morals - adj. - of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong
There are principled men and women outside of Christianity whose lives can stand on their own before a just judge.
Similarly there are unprincipled men and women inside Christianity whose lives cannot stand on their own before a just judge.
However, to deny God upon either premise is a fool's game.
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Ham
that is the "coolest" post here..
if I could vote, anyway..
I would not deny God on anybody's premise..
not even mine.
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waysider
It's got my vote, too.
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geisha779
Jesus pretty much told it like it was...he didn't react...He stated, He declared, and He warned. . . . seems if someone puts their faith in Him....they might actually take Him seriously. If God is unable to keep His own....correct His own....guide His own....and save people from their sins...what is the point of believing?
It is a pretty ineffectual God who has unprincipled people like VP standing for Him.
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Ham
if you don't mind me adapting a few of your words..
It is an ineffectual and incompetent god that needs an unprincipled bastard like the victoid to fulfill his will..
I mean, He is God and all. I don't question that.. well, I could but I don't.
but if He is almighty.. couldn't He have figured all this out?
It really isn't my burden, anymore..
I hope this makes sense..
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geisha779
yes. . . . you got it.........and if God has a child...He is pretty much willing and capable of straightening His child out....and keeping him that way....God is not a slacker. Look at Paul. :) He blinded the guy! But hey, it worked. He didn't screw up again.
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Ham
I had one of those kind of experiences once..
now, when it happens, the light is not so what is the word.. as "dazzling" or as disconcerting, as it was the first time..
eventually, all of our eyes will have to become accustomed to the light..
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geisha779
I think so to...but, not until we get a serious ocular revamp. I catch glimpses now and then.....but, I would not be able to stand the full on light. I am not ready yet. Someday.
It is what I look forward to.
See, we are not too far apart!
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Ham
No, we are not, are we..
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waysider
"seeing the light"
Do migraine auras count? :unsure:
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Ham
Heh..
perhaps.
sometimes.. we see more than we want to..
where does all that go..
some describe it as a "headache"..
I dunno..
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T-Bone
great points WordWolf !
i think we ought to call it variations on a theme; vp had numerous ways of asserting this same malleable code of ethics:
love God & neighbor and do as you fool well please
what i may allow in my life you may not allow in yours and visa versa [used often in many of his live teachings]
~~
and several i remember from the pajama party mentioned in my post # 460 - after showing us the bestiality video he addressed the possibility that some of us may have been kinda weirded out by it - saying such things as
unto the pure all things are pure
when you become spiritually mature you can handle anything
i've so renewed my mind that things like this don't bother me
he said he showed us the video out of his concern for us as potential leaders who can't afford to be shocked by anything if we want to help people - he tied that into anything done in the love of God is okay - like him preparing us for extremely unusual counseling situations - it takes the love of God to do that
~~
folks here can probably mention more variations on a theme.....but it was the same old theme wasn't it - i can do as i fool well please !
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