CF&S was NOT serious porn. I kind of admired that a church bred guy would dare to present sex that honestly. I saw many examples of parents and children taking the same CFS class. Wouldn't quite be the same atmosphere in a church ."
if not "serious port".. what is the next step? Beastiality?
Oh. Yes.. the victoid didn't show that in da class. That was reserved for mixed audiences, with some underage viewers in da corps..
admired? He was (a very very small version) of the Timothy Leary of christianity. well, most of his audience had already turned on, tuned in.. no thanks to da vicmeister..
but wasn't that the POINT of what he had to offer with his wares? Drop out of "conventional" society and religion?
too bad it was to fall into the hands of a depraved, drunken lunatic and sex-fiend.. and those like him..
happened to the "keeds" who fell into manson's alternative lifestyle as well.
The mansons tried to "love bomb" Carl Wilson as well. Didn't exactly work.. thank god..
"there are those among us who would GLADLY EXECUTE you" if they had half a chance.
He had armed body guards, trained attack dogs, a goon squad he could dispatch to locations outside HQ------and, yet, he told the L.E.A.D. participants they would have to use mojo magic believing to keep themselves safe..... The guy was a hypocritical woos.
What was he so afraid of? "Oh, the Illuminati is out to get me"----Yeah, sure. More like some irate husband or father, bent on cutting his nuts off and stuffing them down his throat. Where was all that fearlessness he boasted of ?
quote: The mansons tried to "love bomb" Carl Wilson as well.
I heard it was Dennis.
quote: The words of God were pure and powerful and it was my allegiance to the word of God, and the actual deliverance by our wonderful God, which made me so loyal to the Way.
Interesting that she admits that she got some serious deliverance from twi despite what else happened. Of course, Romans 10:9,10 are quoted out loud in the X rated cartoon R. Crumb's 'Fritz the Cat'.
quote: When you set yourself up to decide right and wrong--well, it doesn't get much more morally superior than that.
We have all been given the tools to decide right and wrong. They're called brains. Morally superior means you think you're "better" than someone else. Morals are man made. White supremists thought they were morally superior to black people. It's amusing to me that our fair and balanced mainstream media calls liberals "politically correct" when THEY get all morally superior, yet when conservatives do it, they're "reactionary, out of touch," etc.
I knew a guy in twi who had a tendency to be morally superior. He married a girl he had met 6 weeks earlier, then came over and bragged about how they had no sex before they got married. His tone was "see, it CAN be done!" They divorced several years later leaving a 4 year old girl bounced from house to house for the rest of her childhood. I'm really not trying to rejoice in that guy's "iniquity"; I'm just saying it doesn't pay to let yourself get in that state of mind. We ALL do it.
quote: The mansons tried to "love bomb" Carl Wilson as well.
I heard it was Dennis.
quote: The words of God were pure and powerful and it was my allegiance to the word of God, and the actual deliverance by our wonderful God, which made me so loyal to the Way.
Interesting that she admits that she got some serious deliverance from twi despite what else happened. Of course, Romans 10:9,10 are quoted out loud in the X rated cartoon R. Crumb's 'Fritz the Cat'.
quote: When you set yourself up to decide right and wrong--well, it doesn't get much more morally superior than that.
We have all been given the tools to decide right and wrong. They're called brains. Morally superior means you think you're "better" than someone else. Morals are man made. White supremists thought they were morally superior to black people. It's amusing to me that our fair and balanced mainstream media calls liberals "politically correct" when THEY get all morally superior, yet when conservatives do it, they're "reactionary, out of touch," etc.
I knew a guy in twi who had a tendency to be morally superior. He married a girl he had met 6 weeks earlier, then came over and bragged about how they had no sex before they got married. His tone was "see, it CAN be done!" They divorced several years later leaving a 4 year old girl bounced from house to house for the rest of her childhood. I'm really not trying to rejoice in that guy's "iniquity"; I'm just saying it doesn't pay to let yourself get in that state of mind. We ALL do it.
What does any of this have to do the original question?
please provide some documentation to back up that philosophical assertion.
personally i lean toward the christian idea [that does have a biblical basis] that man is made in the image and likeness of God Genesis 1: 26, 27
an image and likeness that man retained even after the Fall of man Genesis 9: 6; James 3: 9
the image and likeness of God in man - though now, like everything else tainted from the fall - still appears to function as a reflection of the Creator. This image perhaps being a template - a pattern cut after a design that mirrors the qualities of the Designer. Hence, the great challenge that Jesus put forth in Matthew 5:43-48, to love not only our neighbors but our enemies - setting an incredibly high standard of perfect love as our heavenly Father is perfect love.
And this template seems to have an astounding self-diagnostic feature built in - - the conscience - which serves as an engine trouble light when the integrity of God's image is violated. If morals are man-made with the assumption that they express or teach a conception of right behavior - then who taught Adam such a code so that he felt guilt and shame after he disobeyed God in Genesis 3:8-12 ?
i'm also inclined to think that the image and likeness of God is such an integral part of man by merely considering the common threads of morality that strike a similar cord in many cultures throughout history. Laws that prohibit stealing, murder, lying, adultery, etc. are common enough to suggest there's some ideal within man - an internal moral code, if you will.
~~
i think that was the strength of Paul's argument in Romans 2: 14 , 15 - that even though the Gentiles, who did not have the written Law as the Jews did - instinctively followed the things of the Law. imho, this passage makes a very strong case for the conscience of man being a moral template implanted by God Himself:
Romans 2: 14, 15 NIV
Indeed, when the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness...
~~
As amazingly resilient as the conscience might seem to be - it can become severely damaged as shown in I Timothy 4: 1, 2, where it speaks of some abandoning the faith and following deceiving spirits and things taught by demons; such teachings coming through hypocritical liars whose consciences have been seared with a hot iron.
If morals are man made...where does that leave God? Amoral?
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Isaiah 5: 20
Another one of those pesky "Woe unto" verses. The scriptures are full of them.
Who came up with that crock? ...OH! wait.... now I understand... johniam is back.
Well.... let's see... morals? The subject is morals, right?
The 10 Commandments - God's Revelation in the Old Testament
The 10 Commandments are found in the Bible's Old Testament at Exodus, Chapter 20. They were given directly by God to the people of Israel at Mount Sinai after He had delivered them from slavery in Egypt:
"And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the LORD your God…
ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'
TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'
Is not being idolatrous a moral? Okay, maybe not. But there could be an argument made for loyalty being a moral. If that doesn't suit you, we'll call it good moral fiber - or character.
THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'
Whaddya think folks? I say yes - but I'll let you vote.
FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'
Vote.
FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'
I'd call this a moral (And so would Jesus - but I digress.)
SIX: 'You shall not murder.'
Yep... sounds like a moral to me.
SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'
Uh-huh - moral... check!
EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'
Yep.
NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'
Don't lie about people - now if you don't think this is a moral, then don't get all uppity about falsehoods in the press or the dirty business of politics. If you're willing to blow this one off as "man-made" for VP, then you'd have to accept it everywhere else you encounter it.
TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'
Coveting is tricky - because it has to do with the "I wanna's," It's more internal. BUT if you say this isn't a moral, then I can see how you'd condone der Victoid stealing money, homes, wives... whatever the heck he wanted.
Those look like morals to me. But since johniam says that morals are really man-made, I'll just ignore them and go do as I please.
OK, John, suppose morals really ARE "man-made". Wierwille claimed that the Bible was his "only rule of faith and practice." But, he didn't practice a lifestyle that was in accordance with the Bible. Therefore, he practiced a lifestyle of man made morals. At the very least, that makes him a liar.
Interviewer: Oh, I see. So, then, the rest of the morals in The Ten Commandments are really "spiritual" rules, as well. Like for instance, murder. It's not really murder, it's "spiritual" murder. Stealing isn't really stealing, it's "spiritual" stealing.
Wierwille: Well, it doesn't really matter because the Ten Commandments weren't written to the people of today.
Interviewer: But, aren't they part of the Bible?
Wierwille: Yes.
Interviewer: So, then, what's the point of saying the Bible is your only rule of faith and practice if, in fact, it's not?
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Broken Arrow
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WordWolf
Have I mentioned lately that I'm actually getting quite a bit out of this thread? I don't just mean in a sense of psychology/sociology/criminology, but in a sense of Christian learning. The whole p
T-Bone
morals are man-made? Really?!?! please provide some documentation to back up that philosophical assertion. personally i lean toward the christian idea [that does have a biblical basis] that man is m
Ham
if not "serious port".. what is the next step? Beastiality?
Oh. Yes.. the victoid didn't show that in da class. That was reserved for mixed audiences, with some underage viewers in da corps..
admired? He was (a very very small version) of the Timothy Leary of christianity. well, most of his audience had already turned on, tuned in.. no thanks to da vicmeister..
but wasn't that the POINT of what he had to offer with his wares? Drop out of "conventional" society and religion?
too bad it was to fall into the hands of a depraved, drunken lunatic and sex-fiend.. and those like him..
happened to the "keeds" who fell into manson's alternative lifestyle as well.
The mansons tried to "love bomb" Carl Wilson as well. Didn't exactly work.. thank god..
"there are those among us who would GLADLY EXECUTE you" if they had half a chance.
even if their assumptions were incorrect..
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Ham
you really don't need a bible to watch and comment on a video with two women and a dog..
honestly you really don't..
the "honesty" makes him a manogawd?
I won't put those words in your mouth. But if they are there.. my reply would be.. "you've got to be kidding me.."
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waysider
He had armed body guards, trained attack dogs, a goon squad he could dispatch to locations outside HQ------and, yet, he told the L.E.A.D. participants they would have to use mojo magic believing to keep themselves safe..... The guy was a hypocritical woos.
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Ham
about the best year I had was 1974..
weird. I'm still connected to myself, over forty years later..
there is too much good that I would have to undo to go back to change anything..
what would you change, if you could?
well.. me. but then, I'm connected, aren't I. I've changed a lot in the present..
I just wish I could give a *tad* bit more wisdom to the poor clueless bastard in 1974..
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waysider
What was he so afraid of? "Oh, the Illuminati is out to get me"----Yeah, sure. More like some irate husband or father, bent on cutting his nuts off and stuffing them down his throat. Where was all that fearlessness he boasted of ?
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Ham
he didn't figure it out.
fear, or fearlessness?
there will BE a debriefing on the other side of this existence..
well.. maybe I shouldn't say more. Sounds pretty nutty, even to me..
but doesn't anyone else have any impressions like this?
you had to make a few agreements with whoever it was there to come here..
from what I remember.. the dialogue went something like "you'll never figure it out. Or at least, the odds are VERY SLIM that you will.."
it could just be an illusion.
maybe self-induced.. maybe from watching the Outer Limits in the early sixties..
the "easy" answer during the debriefing.. "sorry, I was (or chose to be) a moron.."
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Ham
The Victoid (sorry I capitalized his name) was *lucky* enough to be a Swine, at the right time..
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johniam
quote: The mansons tried to "love bomb" Carl Wilson as well.
I heard it was Dennis.
quote: The words of God were pure and powerful and it was my allegiance to the word of God, and the actual deliverance by our wonderful God, which made me so loyal to the Way.
Interesting that she admits that she got some serious deliverance from twi despite what else happened. Of course, Romans 10:9,10 are quoted out loud in the X rated cartoon R. Crumb's 'Fritz the Cat'.
quote: When you set yourself up to decide right and wrong--well, it doesn't get much more morally superior than that.
We have all been given the tools to decide right and wrong. They're called brains. Morally superior means you think you're "better" than someone else. Morals are man made. White supremists thought they were morally superior to black people. It's amusing to me that our fair and balanced mainstream media calls liberals "politically correct" when THEY get all morally superior, yet when conservatives do it, they're "reactionary, out of touch," etc.
I knew a guy in twi who had a tendency to be morally superior. He married a girl he had met 6 weeks earlier, then came over and bragged about how they had no sex before they got married. His tone was "see, it CAN be done!" They divorced several years later leaving a 4 year old girl bounced from house to house for the rest of her childhood. I'm really not trying to rejoice in that guy's "iniquity"; I'm just saying it doesn't pay to let yourself get in that state of mind. We ALL do it.
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waysider
What does any of this have to do the original question?
For whom was The Way a "safe haven/harbor"?
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Ham
who was it safe for..
so far, from the "relevant" discussion."
Da way was a safe harbor, for a leader with an erection..
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waysider
Exactly. And to insure it remained safe, Wierwille took extreme security measures.
For a guy who trumpeted the value of safety via believing, he sure lived a life of paranoia.
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geisha779
Morals are man made. . . . .
Yeah, you wouldn't want to classify those pesky 10 commandments as moral imperatives or anything like that.
Lots of gray area in THOU SHALT NOT....
Well, no one did see Moses get the things...maybe he was up on Sinai making it all up.
Ham,
I believe it was least safe for those guys. They just did what they wanted but, I don't believe God is deaf, dumb, or stupid.
I choose to believe he is just. In my belief system...it isn't looking too good for them.
Sometimes it is better to pay right away....delayed justice can be harsh.
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Ham
I really didn't see the Corporation named or accredited in any way in any of this..
the *safety* is only at best temporary. Or seasonal.
they just don't see it that way..
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waysider
No one ever got any "deliverance" from TWI. Not in the Biblical sense or otherwise.
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geisha779
No, I agree, but you can get an abrupt personality change. Lucky us. We get to overcome our "deliverance". I feel so special!!
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Ham
It's to them.. "incorruptible".
i.e. whadda I have to worry about?
one of my dear friends from long ago..
his dad told him.. "it sounds to me, like you are using the bible, to go to hell.."
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geisha779
Smart guy!
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Ham
That's it! Da victoid's "ministry"..
on one side of the road there was a cemetery.. on the other, a road sign.. "millions now smoking"..
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T-Bone
morals are man-made? Really?!?!
please provide some documentation to back up that philosophical assertion.
personally i lean toward the christian idea [that does have a biblical basis] that man is made in the image and likeness of God Genesis 1: 26, 27
an image and likeness that man retained even after the Fall of man Genesis 9: 6; James 3: 9
the image and likeness of God in man - though now, like everything else tainted from the fall - still appears to function as a reflection of the Creator. This image perhaps being a template - a pattern cut after a design that mirrors the qualities of the Designer. Hence, the great challenge that Jesus put forth in Matthew 5:43-48, to love not only our neighbors but our enemies - setting an incredibly high standard of perfect love as our heavenly Father is perfect love.
And this template seems to have an astounding self-diagnostic feature built in - - the conscience - which serves as an engine trouble light when the integrity of God's image is violated. If morals are man-made with the assumption that they express or teach a conception of right behavior - then who taught Adam such a code so that he felt guilt and shame after he disobeyed God in Genesis 3:8-12 ?
i'm also inclined to think that the image and likeness of God is such an integral part of man by merely considering the common threads of morality that strike a similar cord in many cultures throughout history. Laws that prohibit stealing, murder, lying, adultery, etc. are common enough to suggest there's some ideal within man - an internal moral code, if you will.
~~
i think that was the strength of Paul's argument in Romans 2: 14 , 15 - that even though the Gentiles, who did not have the written Law as the Jews did - instinctively followed the things of the Law. imho, this passage makes a very strong case for the conscience of man being a moral template implanted by God Himself:
Romans 2: 14, 15 NIV
Indeed, when the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness...
~~
As amazingly resilient as the conscience might seem to be - it can become severely damaged as shown in I Timothy 4: 1, 2, where it speaks of some abandoning the faith and following deceiving spirits and things taught by demons; such teachings coming through hypocritical liars whose consciences have been seared with a hot iron.
~~
edited in honor of Jiminy Cricket
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geisha779
If morals are man made...where does that leave God? Amoral?
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Isaiah 5: 20
Another one of those pesky "Woe unto" verses. The scriptures are full of them.
Excellent post T-bone!!
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doojable
Morals are man made?
Who came up with that crock? ...OH! wait.... now I understand... johniam is back.
Well.... let's see... morals? The subject is morals, right?
The 10 Commandments - God's Revelation in the Old Testament
The 10 Commandments are found in the Bible's Old Testament at Exodus, Chapter 20. They were given directly by God to the people of Israel at Mount Sinai after He had delivered them from slavery in Egypt:
"And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the LORD your God…
ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'
TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'
Is not being idolatrous a moral? Okay, maybe not. But there could be an argument made for loyalty being a moral. If that doesn't suit you, we'll call it good moral fiber - or character.
THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'
Whaddya think folks? I say yes - but I'll let you vote.
FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'
Vote.
FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'
I'd call this a moral (And so would Jesus - but I digress.)
SIX: 'You shall not murder.'
Yep... sounds like a moral to me.
SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'
Uh-huh - moral... check!
EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'
Yep.
NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'
Don't lie about people - now if you don't think this is a moral, then don't get all uppity about falsehoods in the press or the dirty business of politics. If you're willing to blow this one off as "man-made" for VP, then you'd have to accept it everywhere else you encounter it.
TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'
Coveting is tricky - because it has to do with the "I wanna's," It's more internal. BUT if you say this isn't a moral, then I can see how you'd condone der Victoid stealing money, homes, wives... whatever the heck he wanted.
Those look like morals to me. But since johniam says that morals are really man-made, I'll just ignore them and go do as I please.
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waysider
OK, John, suppose morals really ARE "man-made". Wierwille claimed that the Bible was his "only rule of faith and practice." But, he didn't practice a lifestyle that was in accordance with the Bible. Therefore, he practiced a lifestyle of man made morals. At the very least, that makes him a liar.
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waysider
Wierwille: The Bible is my only rule of faith and practice.
Interviewer: What does that mean?.
Wierwille: It means I let the Bible dictate the way I conduct my life.
Interviewer: What about adultery? Doesn't the Bible say adultery is wrong?
Wierwille: Well, that's really "spiritual" adultery.
Interviewer: Oh, I see. So, then, the rest of the morals in The Ten Commandments are really "spiritual" rules, as well. Like for instance, murder. It's not really murder, it's "spiritual" murder. Stealing isn't really stealing, it's "spiritual" stealing.
Wierwille: Well, it doesn't really matter because the Ten Commandments weren't written to the people of today.
Interviewer: But, aren't they part of the Bible?
Wierwille: Yes.
Interviewer: So, then, what's the point of saying the Bible is your only rule of faith and practice if, in fact, it's not?
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doojable
You would think that with all the circular reasoning he did he would have been dizzy.
Maybe that's ultimately why he lost one eye. It was causing him to sin.
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