not saying i have the answers - these are just some things i wonder about whenever a discussion gets into the love sinner/hate sin thing....
does the catchphrase "love the sinner but hate the sin" have any scriptural basis?
The gospels make note of Jesus' association with sinners. What was his position toward unrepentant sinners?
Psalm 11:5 NIV says The Lord examines the righteous, but the wicked, those who love violence, he hates with a passion.....so if we're made in the image and likeness of God - - is that possibly the key feature that enables not only self-examination [an effective and sometimes painful function of our conscience] but also gives us the capacity to hate an evildoer. Furthermore - is it reasonable to assume that this hatred may possibly be following some godly parameters already built-in by the Creator in designing creatures who have some characteristics similar to Himself....
~~
sometimes i get sick and tired of religious talk that seems to separate the sin from the sinner in an almost slight-of-hand fashion painting up the sinner as if THEY are the victim in the situation [sorta "the-devil-made-me-do-it" syndrome].....imho it's a smokescreen to hide the fact that they are the AUTHOR of the sin - they are the culprit in the situation....
~~
check out how Paul loved the sinner but hated the sin in I Corinthians 5 - he basically advised the church to throw them both out! .....
ok, ok - - i also have to mention it appears this excommunication was not only for the good of the local church but as you'll find in II Corinthians - it was instrumental in causing this same sinner to do an about face.
~~
edited for a very good reason .....i'm sure i'll think of one....
My understanding, from another thread, is he bragged about it in a private corps session or two.
See post #243 of the "Was VPW A Good Man" thread. (link)
SoCrates
Right, he bragged about his youngest daughter. Wordwolf said, "we know what ALL his children said and how THEY turned out". I'm not aware of anything that was said by the youngest daughter let alone the rest of the Wierwille children. As far as the how they turned out, is there something wrong with the way they turned out? Except of course, Donnie becoming V.P. of TWI and J.P. helping to start S.O.W.E.R.S.
Love the sinner; hate the sin. I first heard that saying from a trinitarian friend who is a Baptist. I thought it biblically logical at the time. We are commanded to love our enemies, love one another as Christ loved us, and pray for them that despitefully use us.
Then at one of the last ROAs I attended, Don Wierwille used the phrase. He was talking about a situation in Minnesota in which some place's policy on tolerance of homos said that you can't just respond in the affirmative you had to really be tolerant of homos. I can't remember all the details, but his overview of the policy was that it's impossible to love the sinner and hate the sin. He wasn't being flattering. This was said at either the '93 or '94 ROA. Maybe someone else can remember that. It still makes sense to me. I know that's really relevant to most of you <_< .
not saying i have the answers - these are just some things i wonder about whenever a discussion gets into the love sinner/hate sin thing....
does the catchphrase "love the sinner but hate the sin" have any scriptural basis?
The gospels make note of Jesus' association with sinners. What was his position toward unrepentant sinners?
Psalm 11:5 NIV says The Lord examines the righteous, but the wicked, those who love violence, he hates with a passion.....so if we're made in the image and likeness of God - - is that possibly the key feature that enables not only self-examination [an effective and sometimes painful function of our conscience] but also gives us the capacity to hate an evildoer. Furthermore - is it reasonable to assume that this hatred may possibly be following some godly parameters already built-in by the Creator in designing creatures who have some characteristics similar to Himself....
~~
sometimes i get sick and tired of religious talk that seems to separate the sin from the sinner in an almost slight-of-hand fashion painting up the sinner as if THEY are the victim in the situation [sorta "the-devil-made-me-do-it" syndrome].....imho it's a smokescreen to hide the fact that they are the AUTHOR of the sin - they are the culprit in the situation....
~~
check out how Paul loved the sinner but hated the sin in I Corinthians 5 - he basically advised the church to throw them both out!
As far as your example, I think later in II Corinthians you find Paul advising the Church to let them back in. So on it goes, each one of us finding a Bible passage to support our position. I know what you're saying, though, about developing catch-phrases. It seems there are always people who want to reduce truths to tripe little catch phrases. To me, this waters down the impact of whatever the truth is. We've all heard plenty of catch phrases and pretty soon they become as meaningful as "Have a Coke and a smile", or "You deserve a break today" (I'm dating myself).
If you really want to know, this question of separating the sinner from the sin is not hard to answer. I won't bore you with an answer because I think most of you already know what I would say.
I'm still waiting for your definition of what your hate/love is..
what about "sinner"?
what is the definition..
is it..
deplorable, horrible acts against god's elect..
or is it..
transgressions against way doctrine?
you know. doctrinal "differences". having a slightly different god..
or something.
so.. what if I can't describe my particular perception of the Almighty within your particular confines of logic.. is that it? Is that the real *problem* here?
quote: I'm still waiting for your definition of what your hate/love is..
what about "sinner"?
what is the definition..
God is love. I can say truthfully that I love...
God
Jesus Christ
myself
my wife
my children
raspberries
tomotoes
rock music
sports on TV
Different ways to show love for all those things, but...
What is the common denominator? Is it not desire? I think it is possible to desire for someone to change and choose good over evil, yet hate what they do that is evil. I think that's basically what won us over to twi. Someone was willing to look past our flesh and be encouraging and compassionate and understanding toward us in order to give us a chance to choose Jesus Christ, or a better understanding of Jesus Christ if we were already born again.
VPs teaching of the word was too detailed for him to just be scamming us. He could have been an auto mechanic or a salesman if he just wanted to scam people. He really believed what he taught biblically. He loved the word of God. He communicated that when he taught. That's what encouraged us to sell it to others. Most of us never met VP or never spent any time with him. The fruit of the spirit we saw was in other people.
VPs teaching of the word was too detailed for him to just be scamming us. He could have been an auto mechanic or a salesman if he just wanted to scam people. He really believed what he taught biblically. He loved the word of God. He communicated that when he taught. That's what encouraged us to sell it to others.
You really must start paying closer attention, John.
First, a very high percentage of what Wierwille taught was plagiarized from other sources, such as Bullinger, Stiles, Leonard, Jones and so on. He was aware it was not original but he intentionally concealed that fact. Second, quite a bit of it was not accurate, anyhow. Take a few minutes and review THIS. I'm not convinced he "believed what he taught 'Biblically'." (Whatever that means.), nor am I convinced "He loved the word of God." Refer to THIS.
I do agree, however, that he was able to communicate and encourage us to enlist the participation of others. That's what con-men do. They con-vince you and gain your con-fidence.
if memory serves me well, i recall vp using the line in several teachings "tell a lie long enough and people will believe it" - or something to that effect.....i tend to think he fell victim to his own bull $ hi+....maybe after weaving such an incredibly tangling web of deceit over the course of his career as a charlatan - he lost sight of reality because of delusional obstructions....it's possible he started out with good intentions....it's also possible the lust for recognition, power, and pleasure detoured him onto a very crooked side road.
.....hmmmm - that's a really scary thought - if it was no longer an ACT for him....but really convinced he was the man-O-gawd for this day and time and hour.
So when he taught for 5 hours on the word 'of' in Romans 1:1 (Paul a servant OF Jesus Christ), just who did he steal THAT from?
I don't think anyone here has heard that teaching, so I doubt they can give a proper response.
Standing on one foot, I know someone can memorize their bull so well they can go for hours on end about the line of bull they're trying to sell. Look at any politician.
if memory serves me well, i recall vp using the line in several teachings "tell a lie long enough and people will believe it" - or something to that effect
Even that came from someplace else, Dr. Paul Joseph Goebbels, Hitlers propaganda minister.
Speaking of this, I'm surprised. Don't they teach you in the minstry to watch out of counterfeits anymore. They warned us and warned us not to go to "Lucie's Rip and Gyp Shop" because the stuff may look like the real thing, but open that foil wrapped present and all there is in the box is crap.
They of course were talking about the real world, but ironically, it now applies to SAint Vic and his demented circus. It looks like fun, but stay away from the elephant ears, if you know what I mean.
John, between the time I posted in post #363 and you responded in post #364, 19 minutes elapsed. Do you really expect me to believe you actually reviewed the links I posted in 19 minutes? I don't think you did. If you had, you most likely would have addressed one point or another from those links rather than resorting to your usual diversional tactics.
There is a thread on here that is just wonderful....a few of the posters put together some amazing information in an easy readable fashion....I believe it is well presented. I love the posters here...most of them are so bright! It is certainly verifiable information....if someone wants to make the effort. Some of it I already knew...but, I learned a great deal and checked out what I didn't know ...in detail. Since I can't link it...I am blond and that is beyond my grade level.....and I don't believe John will read the thread....I will cut and paste.
I do know that the Word of Faith Movement was Christianized to make it more palatable and they used many of the same terms as Christianity but with far different meanings...just like TWI! Wow, funny how that works. It is still around...still preached from the pulpit...but, VP perverted that particular perversion of the gospel....to me....that is really fascinating.
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Broken Arrow
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WordWolf
Have I mentioned lately that I'm actually getting quite a bit out of this thread? I don't just mean in a sense of psychology/sociology/criminology, but in a sense of Christian learning. The whole p
T-Bone
morals are man-made? Really?!?! please provide some documentation to back up that philosophical assertion. personally i lean toward the christian idea [that does have a biblical basis] that man is m
Broken Arrow
There were times I've been an "evil, vicious man", just ask my first wife and daughter; they still love me. Other people love me too. Go figure.
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T-Bone
not saying i have the answers - these are just some things i wonder about whenever a discussion gets into the love sinner/hate sin thing....
does the catchphrase "love the sinner but hate the sin" have any scriptural basis?
The gospels make note of Jesus' association with sinners. What was his position toward unrepentant sinners?
Psalm 11:5 NIV says The Lord examines the righteous, but the wicked, those who love violence, he hates with a passion.....so if we're made in the image and likeness of God - - is that possibly the key feature that enables not only self-examination [an effective and sometimes painful function of our conscience] but also gives us the capacity to hate an evildoer. Furthermore - is it reasonable to assume that this hatred may possibly be following some godly parameters already built-in by the Creator in designing creatures who have some characteristics similar to Himself....
~~
sometimes i get sick and tired of religious talk that seems to separate the sin from the sinner in an almost slight-of-hand fashion painting up the sinner as if THEY are the victim in the situation [sorta "the-devil-made-me-do-it" syndrome].....imho it's a smokescreen to hide the fact that they are the AUTHOR of the sin - they are the culprit in the situation....
~~
check out how Paul loved the sinner but hated the sin in I Corinthians 5 - he basically advised the church to throw them both out! .....
ok, ok - - i also have to mention it appears this excommunication was not only for the good of the local church but as you'll find in II Corinthians - it was instrumental in causing this same sinner to do an about face.
~~
edited for a very good reason .....i'm sure i'll think of one....
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Broken Arrow
Right, he bragged about his youngest daughter. Wordwolf said, "we know what ALL his children said and how THEY turned out". I'm not aware of anything that was said by the youngest daughter let alone the rest of the Wierwille children. As far as the how they turned out, is there something wrong with the way they turned out? Except of course, Donnie becoming V.P. of TWI and J.P. helping to start S.O.W.E.R.S.
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johniam
Love the sinner; hate the sin. I first heard that saying from a trinitarian friend who is a Baptist. I thought it biblically logical at the time. We are commanded to love our enemies, love one another as Christ loved us, and pray for them that despitefully use us.
Then at one of the last ROAs I attended, Don Wierwille used the phrase. He was talking about a situation in Minnesota in which some place's policy on tolerance of homos said that you can't just respond in the affirmative you had to really be tolerant of homos. I can't remember all the details, but his overview of the policy was that it's impossible to love the sinner and hate the sin. He wasn't being flattering. This was said at either the '93 or '94 ROA. Maybe someone else can remember that. It still makes sense to me. I know that's really relevant to most of you <_< .
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Broken Arrow
As far as your example, I think later in II Corinthians you find Paul advising the Church to let them back in. So on it goes, each one of us finding a Bible passage to support our position. I know what you're saying, though, about developing catch-phrases. It seems there are always people who want to reduce truths to tripe little catch phrases. To me, this waters down the impact of whatever the truth is. We've all heard plenty of catch phrases and pretty soon they become as meaningful as "Have a Coke and a smile", or "You deserve a break today" (I'm dating myself).
If you really want to know, this question of separating the sinner from the sin is not hard to answer. I won't bore you with an answer because I think most of you already know what I would say.
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Ham
so while we are on this subject..
I'm still waiting for your definition of what your hate/love is..
what about "sinner"?
what is the definition..
is it..
deplorable, horrible acts against god's elect..
or is it..
transgressions against way doctrine?
you know. doctrinal "differences". having a slightly different god..
or something.
so.. what if I can't describe my particular perception of the Almighty within your particular confines of logic.. is that it? Is that the real *problem* here?
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Ham
maybe your wern't all that.. that is evil and viscous.
I'm waiting for those who know me to weigh in here..
what am I.. I dunno..
scary thoughts, isn't it..
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johniam
quote: I'm still waiting for your definition of what your hate/love is..
what about "sinner"?
what is the definition..
God is love. I can say truthfully that I love...
God
Jesus Christ
myself
my wife
my children
raspberries
tomotoes
rock music
sports on TV
Different ways to show love for all those things, but...
What is the common denominator? Is it not desire? I think it is possible to desire for someone to change and choose good over evil, yet hate what they do that is evil. I think that's basically what won us over to twi. Someone was willing to look past our flesh and be encouraging and compassionate and understanding toward us in order to give us a chance to choose Jesus Christ, or a better understanding of Jesus Christ if we were already born again.
VPs teaching of the word was too detailed for him to just be scamming us. He could have been an auto mechanic or a salesman if he just wanted to scam people. He really believed what he taught biblically. He loved the word of God. He communicated that when he taught. That's what encouraged us to sell it to others. Most of us never met VP or never spent any time with him. The fruit of the spirit we saw was in other people.
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cman
Salesman? Yes that is certain.
What he sold was crap, poor quality workmanship.
"Freely you have received, Freely give"
# Matthew 10:8
Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
# 1 Corinthians 2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Did not happen with the vp/pfal package.
We were held captive as slaves by
'mathematical exactness and scientific precision'.
But a closer look and the math and science falls apart and is fruitless.
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cman
More a conman then a salesman.
Talked us out of our money, our families, our very real gifts.
Coerced women into bed with him, as well as rape.
He had no right or authority to do what he did.
But by words we were tricked into believing lies.
He violated everyone within his reach, even if you never met him.
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Broken Arrow
No.
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waysider
You really must start paying closer attention, John.
First, a very high percentage of what Wierwille taught was plagiarized from other sources, such as Bullinger, Stiles, Leonard, Jones and so on. He was aware it was not original but he intentionally concealed that fact. Second, quite a bit of it was not accurate, anyhow. Take a few minutes and review THIS. I'm not convinced he "believed what he taught 'Biblically'." (Whatever that means.), nor am I convinced "He loved the word of God." Refer to THIS.
I do agree, however, that he was able to communicate and encourage us to enlist the participation of others. That's what con-men do. They con-vince you and gain your con-fidence.
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johniam
So when he taught for 5 hours on the word 'of' in Romans 1:1 (Paul a servant OF Jesus Christ), just who did he steal THAT from?
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So_crates
I agree. His fruit of the spirit is in other people: the people on this board for instance.
Or how about all the women he raped? More fruit?
How about all the lives he wrecked, the suicides he caused?
Or how bout the Craigmeister, there's a ripe slice of fruit for you.
SoCrates
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T-Bone
if memory serves me well, i recall vp using the line in several teachings "tell a lie long enough and people will believe it" - or something to that effect.....i tend to think he fell victim to his own bull $ hi+....maybe after weaving such an incredibly tangling web of deceit over the course of his career as a charlatan - he lost sight of reality because of delusional obstructions....it's possible he started out with good intentions....it's also possible the lust for recognition, power, and pleasure detoured him onto a very crooked side road.
.....hmmmm - that's a really scary thought - if it was no longer an ACT for him....but really convinced he was the man-O-gawd for this day and time and hour.
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So_crates
I don't think anyone here has heard that teaching, so I doubt they can give a proper response.
Standing on one foot, I know someone can memorize their bull so well they can go for hours on end about the line of bull they're trying to sell. Look at any politician.
SoCrates
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johniam
quote: quote: What is the common denominator? Is it not desire?
No.
Then what is it?
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So_crates
Even that came from someplace else, Dr. Paul Joseph Goebbels, Hitlers propaganda minister.
Speaking of this, I'm surprised. Don't they teach you in the minstry to watch out of counterfeits anymore. They warned us and warned us not to go to "Lucie's Rip and Gyp Shop" because the stuff may look like the real thing, but open that foil wrapped present and all there is in the box is crap.
They of course were talking about the real world, but ironically, it now applies to SAint Vic and his demented circus. It looks like fun, but stay away from the elephant ears, if you know what I mean.
SoCrates
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waysider
John, between the time I posted in post #363 and you responded in post #364, 19 minutes elapsed. Do you really expect me to believe you actually reviewed the links I posted in 19 minutes? I don't think you did. If you had, you most likely would have addressed one point or another from those links rather than resorting to your usual diversional tactics.
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cman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._W._Bullinger
External links is funny that way....
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geisha779
There is a thread on here that is just wonderful....a few of the posters put together some amazing information in an easy readable fashion....I believe it is well presented. I love the posters here...most of them are so bright! It is certainly verifiable information....if someone wants to make the effort. Some of it I already knew...but, I learned a great deal and checked out what I didn't know ...in detail. Since I can't link it...I am blond and that is beyond my grade level.....and I don't believe John will read the thread....I will cut and paste.
I do know that the Word of Faith Movement was Christianized to make it more palatable and they used many of the same terms as Christianity but with far different meanings...just like TWI! Wow, funny how that works. It is still around...still preached from the pulpit...but, VP perverted that particular perversion of the gospel....to me....that is really fascinating.
Waysider linked it for me...so I am editing!
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waysider
From one dumb blonde to---- oops---can't say that.
(The is a little back-arrow to the left of the posters name in your cut and paste. Click on that to go back to the link of origin.)
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geisha779
Magic! Thank-you!!
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geisha779
I probably just killed this thread with TMI. Too much information.....Sorry if I did :(
This forum has had some pretty interesting discussions....and like WW, I learned some things on this thread.
Time well spent.
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