the victoids' *ministry(?)*

[Bolshevik]

. . .

[This poster (me) even attempted to show John from Scripture how completely wrong Johniam's

idea that "moral superiority is a myth" is. Despite us seeing about a week ago that the Bible

explains how to tell "good men" and "evil men" apart, John's missed it again and is still saying

there's no "moral superiority", thus, no "good", no "evil" among humans. So, from Scripture

again to show him how obviously false this is. If John really cared about the Bible, you'd think

he'd have learned such basics in the past decades, or at least be thankful to be shown a few of

the verses he seems to have missed. So, the Bible says there are morals, good and evil, and

that calling morals a "myth" is the activity of those who are immoral and evil.

Again, should be "Foundational" level- and for almost all Christians, indeed it IS.

There's only a minority, generally clustered among people who learned from vpw and twi,

who seem to be unable or unwilling to understand the concept- or eager to dismiss part of the

Bible.]

. . .

I was reading something this morning . . . probably why it comes to mind . . .

. . . in your opinion . . . would you call vpw, and his apparent supporter in this thread, nihilists?

[WordWolf]

I was reading something this morning . . . probably why it comes to mind . . .

. . . in your opinion . . . would you call vpw, and his apparent supporter in this thread, nihilists?

This is getting off-topic a bit (not that we weren't already), but...

Let's get a quick, working definition of "nihilism."

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Nihilism

"...is the philosophical belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy."

To go from that, I'd say nihilism, as I've understood it, wants a removal of all social constructs

and social organization. vpw most certainly did not believe in that- he wanted social constructs

and organizations- he just wanted them organized to HIS convenience and to HIS rules.

That's why he set up so much structure in twi- classes at precise levels, numbers of prerequisites,

different colored armbands, different nametags, multiple programs (fellow-labourers, corps,

spouse corps, recognized corps, university of life, wow, etc etc). No nihilist would BUILD programs.

They'd argue to remove all programs. vpw advocated FOR loyalties- loyalties to HIM and to his

organization. (In the cases of a few people, he's exceeded his wildest expectations, IMHO.)

As for nothing being known nor comunicated, vpw organized twi as a modern take on some sort of

"mystery religion" and "gnosic" cult, where value is placed on KNOWLEDGE, especially esoteric,

HIDDEN ("occulted") knowledge. No man could push for so many different classes and claim at the

same time that knowledge doesn't really exist. He claimed he was either the fountain of all REAL

knowledge or that he was the only man who could tap into the Fountain of All REAL Knowledge,

depending on who he was speaking to. (Usually he IMPLIED it and let others SAY it outright, which

provided him with "plausible deniability"- he MEANT it but since he didn't SAY it, some people

could claim he never MEANT it.)

As defined by those with more precise definitions, among "conformist" "innovator", "ritualist", "retreatist"

and "rebel" (like Merton), vpw would have been a "rebel." He rejected both the establishment's

goals (spend your life serving the flock, the leader washes the feet of the disciples)

and the means of accomplishing goals (the denominations in effect when he joined them),

and substituted his own goals (I want the money, the recognition, and to satisfy all my impulses

like sex, alcohol, tobacco whenever I want to) and his own means

(parcel out the organization in pieces that people can be charged money for. Tell them their

goal is always in the next level- then repeat the process as they pay for another level.)

L Ron Hubbard pulled much the same thing in regards to means. Herbert W Armstrong seems to

have done both with means and goals when he was alive. vpw was neither the first nor the

last to do things like that, and isn't even well-known among such. However, this is small

comfort for those hurt by his immoral, evil means (him personally or the organization he

set up for them which hurt people).

Edited February 11, 2011 by WordWolf

[Bolshevik]

I've heard that a nihilist must, to survive or cope, create their own value system. I was thinking men like vpw would have done this . . . and go on as you said, to build programs.

[WordWolf]

I disagree that setting up structures still classifies one as a nihilist.

It's like when comedian Bob Nelson explained he was going to perform a "pantomine".

"Except it will have sound effects, and I will talk during it."

The joke was, of course, now it's no longer a "pantomime".

I think setting up structures disqualifies someone from being a true nihilist.

Then again, you and I approach things from opposite ends of the ideological spectrum

(you emphasize personal freedom while I think it's possible to work fairly within

the system, and that a system is better overall than NO system),

so it's no surprise you and I would disagree on how nihilism works and is defined.

I think we probably reached our limit on where we agree on it. Personally, I'd rather

get back to the thread and let it go back to just one derailer. ;)

[Bolshevik]

merely curious . . . not trying to disagree . . . but back to the show . . .

[excathedra]

While I believe that VP did bad things, I don't buy the whole hype. There is an infinity of things he's been accused of and you and others seem to blindly accept all of it as a truth package. I do not. Some (perhaps most) of that stuff is either fabricated or exaggerated.

sorry, who said this?

i can't help but feeling deeply offended by what happened to me personally as "hype". Another thing -- some or most of what stuff is fabricated or exaggerated? i have tried extremely hard not to fabricate or exaggerate -- so much so that i've never really said everything in a full mouthful -- too afraid and too ashamed

i've been accused before of being an attention seeker, a liar, the patron saint of sexual abuse, and on and on

so i'm offended again by the fabrication and exaggeration thing

i'm sure there might be people here who never even met the man that say things like they knew what happened -- i am not in that category

as far as rewards or thrones -- i don't mean that to be "ugly" -- but that is just ridiculous to me. i'm sorry

[Ham]

I understand completely..

sorry. I'm supposed to be some kind of peacemaker here.. I feel I have failed horribly..

where do we go from here..

[So_crates]

sorry, who said this?

i can't help but feeling deeply offended by what happened to me personally as "hype". Another thing -- some or most of what stuff is fabricated or exaggerated? i have tried extremely hard not to fabricate or exaggerate -- so much so that i've never really said everything in a full mouthful -- too afraid and too ashamed

i've been accused before of being an attention seeker, a liar, the patron saint of sexual abuse, and on and on

so i'm offended again by the fabrication and exaggeration thing

i'm sure there might be people here who never even met the man that say things like they knew what happened -- i am not in that category

as far as rewards or thrones -- i don't mean that to be "ugly" -- but that is just ridiculous to me. i'm sorry

Johniam, this is an example of what I was speaking of. See post #224 of this thread.

You should show some compassion for Werewolf's victims, rather then trying to retain the Werewolf legacy.

Ham, keep plugging and chugging dude. It's not your fault somebody has Waybrain and just doesn't get it.

SoCrates

Edited February 12, 2011 by So_crates

[geisha779]

quote:

So, the guy who kidnaps children to molest and murder them is morally on par with the one who dedicates his life to feeding hungry children and delights in good?

Now THIS is exactly what I'm talking about. Kidnaps children??? Molests???? Murder???? That's pure fabrication. That's slander. That's liable. Are you trying to bait the Wierwille family or TWI into suing you so you can air your issues in court? Is that what this is all about?

Did the Packers win the superbowl because they were "morally superior" to the Steelers? Do judges rule on cases because of how "morally superior" the attorneys are? There's a word for people who think things SHOULD turn out a certain way because of moral superiority. Loser. Talk about doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result!

White supremists thought they were morally superior when they abused black people in the south. Same for supporters of Apartheid. Same for Nazis. Same for those who actually murdered the Christ. Don't you get it?

God is the only moral judge. I did not say that there is no good or evil, I just said that you all aren't the judges of such. Not man versus man you're not. You have your opinions. You have criminal and civil law. You have this forum, but you do not have the copyright on what is moral. Isn't that what got us in the soup in twi? Thinking that we had the copyright on truth?

How do you get that I was referencing VP in my post. If I meant VP I would have said VP....instead I used a generic reference as an example....."So, the man who kidnaps. . ."

The Packers reference is just sad....but....news flash...judges do rule on the morality of an issue. According to your clouded logic.....we don't judge white supremacy as bad? The Nazi's? Apartheid? On what planet? What faith does this happen in? Isn't that judging "man vs man" (whatever that means??)

Johniam what I think got us in trouble in TWI was not judging the lives of those who claimed to speak for God........and certainly not knowing the truth.....the "truth" or the "word" because the "truth", and the "word", is a person. He even tells us who He is...I am the way, and the truth, and the life. Is Jesus a moral enough example for us to judge right from wrong....good from bad? He is after all, the express image of God.

How did He treat women?

You cannot get around the issue of abusing others while claiming to be a follower of Christ. That is what it means to be a Christian BTW. Christianity is about a person. The scriptures are about a person. Our faith is in a person. Our lives are freely given to a person. It is not about your experience.

VP....preached a gospel that excused sin, his sin. Yet, if you ate a cookie during a colon cleanse...you deserved to die. That is just downright evil.

There is no defense...excuse...or reason for a Christian to tolerate VP's doctrine of grace so that sin may abound. None. Not one rationalization that you can make from scripture that will stand. But, I would be fascinated to actually hear your exegesis on why we do not judge between the righteousness and the unrighteousness of those claiming to be "The Teacher".

The accountability for true teachers of the gospel is double of those who don't have the responsibility. Can you fathom the judgment for false teachers? Their destiny will be according to what they did...not said. 2 Peter 2 is a bit more frightening.

Knowing that God will judge them....what are we told to judge to avoid them? What are we warned to look for to avoid false teachers? Could it be their morality? Could it be we look for their sound speech and behavior? When Paul is warning Timothy about these men....he doesn't go into as much detail about their doctrine as he does their behavior....their manner of life. And.....he didn't say stick your head in the sand. Don't judge man vs man.

Denying the Lordship of Christ by lifestyle....while claiming to be a believer.......discredits the gospel. Why? Because refusing to live as a servant....and living according to lust is an opening for mocking the gospel. This is destructive to others who are seeking faith. It is a bad thing.

Jesus said...take heed how you hear. Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has will be taken from him.

That verse is actually a pretty dire warning. Wouldn't listening to Jesus actually be the better bet than listening to VP?

Edited February 12, 2011 by geisha779

[geisha779]

[This poster (me) even attempted to show John from Scripture how completely wrong Johniam's

idea that "moral superiority is a myth" is. Despite us seeing about a week ago that the Bible

explains how to tell "good men" and "evil men" apart, John's missed it again and is still saying

there's no "moral superiority", thus, no "good", no "evil" among humans. So, from Scripture

again to show him how obviously false this is. If John really cared about the Bible, you'd think

he'd have learned such basics in the past decades, or at least be thankful to be shown a few of

the verses he seems to have missed. So, the Bible says there are morals, good and evil, and

that calling morals a "myth" is the activity of those who are immoral and evil.

Again, should be "Foundational" level- and for almost all Christians, indeed it IS.

There's only a minority, generally clustered among people who learned from vpw and twi,

who seem to be unable or unwilling to understand the concept- or eager to dismiss part of the

Bible.]

I really did think that explanation would penetrate.....FWIW..I really enjoyed reading it.

Edited February 12, 2011 by geisha779

[waysider]

"VP....preached a gospel that excused sin, his sin. Yet, if you ate a cookie during a colon cleanse...you deserved to die. That is just downright evil."

------------------------------------

May I point out----?

For those who may think this is an exaggeration.....it's not!

What Geisha is referring to is a specific event that happened in the Way Corps.

(1974 or 1975)

I'm not good at searches but here is the gist of it.

Gary D. left HQ grounds during a period when the Corps was on the cleanse. (To get a snack in town) He was the passenger in a car driven by another Corps member, John N. They were in a horrible car wreck and Gary died as a result. Wierwille called the driver, to his face, a murderer for cheating on the cleanse. Then, he told the rest of the Corps that if they had cheated on the cleanse, as well, they were guilty of murder, too. What kind of sick, heartless bastard uses a time of grief and mourning to promote his own twisted agenda? Not one with a "ministry from God", I dare say.

Edited February 12, 2011 by waysider

[Broken Arrow]

I understand completely..

sorry. I'm supposed to be some kind of peacemaker here.. I feel I have failed horribly..

where do we go from here..

You are? One place we can go from here is for you to lose the title "peacemaker". Too much pressure for one squirrel.

[cman]

Now THIS is exactly what I'm talking about. Kidnaps children??? Molests???? Murder???? That's pure fabrication.

I have to agree with Exc here, these things did happen.

If you, johniam, want open dialogue on this it may have to be by pm's.

But I don't think you are ready to hear it yet.

You will though.

There are other things to discuss, and show points of view.

If you are willing to even consider any except your own.

Of which I have seen and lived and then taken the time and energy,

and to add, the courage to look at things without your self interests.

You have to take it upon yourself to look.

And usually not many notice, but some do.

[cman]

these things can be shown to you

to which there would be no doubt

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+8&version=KJV

this is happening in the mind of a man

but you just can't be narrow-minded

and blind and deaf to what is not seen or heard

much more then you will expect....i expect....

[mstar1]

Johniam what I think got us in trouble in TWI was not judging the lives of those who claimed to speak for God

Way doctrine is a huge part of that. Wafers, and especially leadership, were already justified, righteous and sanctified by fiat not by any acts of their own and were therefore unjudgeable. They were free to do anything with no restraints since they were already 'justified'.

Anyone who brought up accountability to a selfjustified higher up was labelled as unrenewed, possessed or 'the accuser' --a pretty slick trick.

[johniam]

quote: Vp avoided prison for his deeds, but, no matter how they appear to overcome, they're in a mental prison for the rest of their life.

Speak for yourself. So God refuses to heal? Not mine.

This is another example of the form of world wisdom we call psychology.

Edited February 12, 2011 by johniam

[waysider]

This is another example of the form of world wisdom we call psychology.

Straight out of the PFAL class.

Do you ever actually think for yourself, John, or do you simply fall back on VP's pat answers without considering whether they're true or not?

[So_crates]

quote: Vp avoided prison for his deeds, but, no matter how they appear to overcome, they're in a mental prison for the rest of their life.

Speak for yourself. So God refuses to heal? Not mine.

This is another example of the form of world wisdom we call psychology.

Nice to see I hit a nerve.

So, what's your experience with people who have been molested or raped?

Here's mine: a neice, a fiancee, the 7-year-old daughter of an ex-girlfriend and some friends.

I speak from experience. I've seen what rape and molestation does to people. I've delt with my fiancee's fears and my neice's nightmares. When you narrow it down to real flesh and blood human terms, you realize what true monsters people who rape and molest are.

You don't think his victims are in prison? Vp's worm food, he doesn't have to get up in the morning and face what he did. Unfortunately, his victims have to deal with the consequences of his actions every day of their lives. You can tell me all you want about God healing, but I've seen it in others in a similar situation.

Several years ago, I slashed my thumb open when a plate I was cleaning broke. It healed, however, I still have the scar, and due to nerve damage, there are parts of my thumb that have no feeling. Yes, God heals, but he also gives us scars to remind us not to be so stupid as to do that again. (Or, in this case, let it happen again.)

Write it off as world wisdom. It absolves you of all responsibility to think the matter through. Then you don't have to consider the pain Vp caused. In typical Way Blame the victim style, you can say it was the victims fault because God healed them and they don't believe it. With this attitude you never have to look at the flesh and blood reality of what Vp did and you can still live in your La-la Land. Taking this attitude, you can make Vp sound like the victim and his victims sound like perpetrators.

Your way, the morally superior my God doesn't refuse healing attitude, narrows to nothing more than another way of vicimizing the victimizer and not having concern for the true victims.

SoCrates

Edited February 12, 2011 by So_crates

[So_crates]

From post #73 of the "A prophet is a hard man to live with" thread:

VPs first love was scripture, the right dividing of God's word. The other stuff fell in his lap. Somewhere along the line he decided that it was OK with God for him to allow 'liberties' in his life that led him astray. That he really thought that sex outside of marriage could be "liberating" as a regular practice.

Speak for yourself. So God refuses to heal? Not mine.

Do you see the apparent contradiction here, Johniam?

If God was going to heal somebody, surely He would heal someone who loved The Word first and rightly divided His Word.

So why didn't God heal Vp of his sexual sickness? Why didn't God heal him of his alcoholism?

Most of all, why didn't he get ministered and healed for the ocular cancer and melanoma that eventually killed him? Couldn't be his believing, in theory he had the believing of Jesus Christ. He had enough believing to take on a ministry given to him by God. So, why didn't God heal him, after all as you say, your God doesn't refuse to heal.

And what do you think Vp did when he couldn't get ministered to and healed of that ocular cancer and melanoma? You think he just said, "God its in your hands," and let it spread through his body. No. I'll lay odds he went to the doctor--that world wisdom he's so good at putting down--and got treated to extend his life as long as possible.

So, before you condemn world wisdom, remember though Vp acted like he despised it, he used it when it was convenient for him.

SoCrates

Edited February 12, 2011 by So_crates

[Ham]

VPs first love was scripture, the right dividing of God's word

You've got to be kidding..

maybe by YOUR perception..

I think closer to reality here was, vp's first love was the adulation and worship publically, and the "ability" to "free range" with his wee wee..

[Ham]

VPs first love was scripture, the right dividing of God's word. The other stuff fell in his lap. Somewhere along the line he decided that it was OK with God for him to allow 'liberties' in his life that led him astray. That he really thought that sex outside of marriage could be "liberating" as a regular practice.

so he just "bumbled along" into a morass of sin and sexual immorality?

he DECIDED? I think that is the key here.

he really thought?

so now you partly admit.. that he was "led astray".

But you seem to persist in holding on to his doctrine..

he "decided".. everything else as well..

just so I understand what you are saying correctly:

"I am allowing a lecherous rogue and sexual deviant to determine what is right for me to believe."

Is that it?

Edited February 12, 2011 by Ham

[Ham]

That he really thought that sex outside of marriage could be "liberating" as a regular practice.

maybe the big question should be: do you AGREE with that doctrine? or that its OK under the right circumstances..

or do you abhor it?

[Ham]

and while you're working on the last two questions.

What would you do with a psychiatrist that "counseled" his patients by having sex with them?

or even worse. Administered date rape drugs surreptitiously?

[Bolshevik]

quote: Vp avoided prison for his deeds, but, no matter how they appear to overcome, they're in a mental prison for the rest of their life.

Speak for yourself. So God refuses to heal? Not mine.

This is another example of the form of world wisdom we call psychology.

By his stripes ye were healed . . . keep confessing . . . keep claiming . . . even the perfect drop dead eventually. Yippee.

[excathedra]

ha!

yes god heals - he even heals people who had to endure vp