quote: He absorbed the full wrath of God. Wrath toward sin.
Whoa! En garde! Full wrath of God???? Where do you get that? God is light; in Him is no darkness at all. You're saying He's a child abuser.
Gee, I have never heard that one before. Huh, well, maybe I have and used it myself when Christians tried to share the gospel with me. And sure, that lengthy post simply said God is a child abuser...yep, that is what it was all about.
What does it say after it says God is light and in Him is no darkness at all? It tells us what is required to cleanse us from all sin. God required His blood......is that not descriptive enough for you to understand God's wrath toward sin? God treated Jesus as if He was guilty of all sin ever committed though He never sinned. God set the standards....only He knows what would completely satisfy Him.
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. God could have chosen any way to do it.
If we can stop and just think for a second....without PFAL filters....maybe, we can understand that a HOLY God can be light and have wrath towards sin.
He is just and it is just and right to abhor evil. What part of light don't you understand?
It would have been an abusive thing if Jesus had not first willingly taken on the sins of the world. However, once He did that.....what did He become? Accursed for the sin He bore. Cursed is everyone that hangs on a tree. Do you remember what Jesus said to Peter after Jesus had painstakingly explained the manner in which He would die? He said, Get thee behind me Satan you savor the things of men, not of God. Why? Because as incredible as it sounds...this was God's deliberate plan. Peter didn't understand.
What happened on that cross is too amazing to fathom.
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. The devil didn't do that GOD did.
Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makeshis life an offering for sin.......
Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?
What is the proper response to sin? What is Gods response to sin? His response is the right one. God is angry with the wicked everyday......God hates sin....but that hate is JUST it is RIGHT and it is not darkness.
God is too pure to look on evil....you really don't know any of this about God?That He is so holy, the scriptures say He is holy, holy, holy.
God is rightly wrathful towards sin....Jesus became sin......Jesus took what was due us....the full wrath of God......why wrath? Because we are sinners. Jesus took it upon Himself. God had to be satisfied. If Jesus didn't absorb the full wrath of God....we are not saved. Saved from what? What do the scriptures tell us we are saved from? Could it be the wrath to come? Wrath towards what?
The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath.
We are talking about God...not some genie in the sky. A holy, just right, and loving God who provided the sacrifice, who spent His anger, and who showed us His love.
The gospel is amazing and what happened on that cross was an intersection of mercy and wrath...justice and grace.
God is love vs. the Wrath of God. Obvious contradiction. The Bible is filled with them. Rather than accept that fact, discuss it and deal with it logically, Mr.Wierwille's brand of Christianity, instead, chooses to live in denial. Nope. No contradictions. Just accept that what Wierwille tells you will solve any discrepancies. Just ask "The Teacher".
"En Gard!" That's how a Way indoctrinated person deals with difficult issues. Simply take a defensive stance and lunge at the problem with isolated bits and pieces of scripture that say what you want them to say. Don't ever dare to stop and consider anything thoughtfully. That's what Eve did. Look what happened to her. (Black and white thinking. No middle road. You're either on the Word or you're off. Either you're for us or against us.) Life is seldom, if ever, that simple. That's why critical thinking skills are a vital part of living. Unfortunately, VPW's "ministry" was diametrically opposed to rational thought. There was even a class (Dealing With The Adversary) that was specifically designed to instruct the students in this anemic process of thinking. Did Wierwille have a "ministry"? Not in any way, shape or form. (In my opinion)
Thank-you johniam because this is a little clearer for me. You would rather minimize sin than maximize it? I never said it was an either or proposition did I? Why jump to a black and white extreme? I am speaking of having a proper attitude toward sin as a follower of Christ. A caviler attitude toward sin....is not Christian. It is not a part of the Christian faith.
As you point out....Jesus died for our sins. Why? Why did He become sin? That is what the scriptures say. He stood in your stead.....and He took on what was due you. Jesus didn't just suffer and die, He took on the sins of the world. (No mere man did this). He absorbed the full wrath of God. Wrath toward sin. It wasn't the miracles Jesus performed or the healings that saved us. It was Him becoming sin.
The scriptures are brimming with God's judgment because of sin. There are not a whole lot of abundant life scriptures in the bible. It is all about redemption. Don't you think a proper understanding of why sin is so offensive to God is paramount to understanding salvation? You have to ask yourself, what is the gospel really all about. Why does the whole bible point to one person? Was it because He multiplied bread and fish? Why did you have to be redeemed?
God is love right? So, what is the biggie?He just wants us to be happy? Well, understanding that God is love but also, just, holy, pure, and merciful is all the more clearer when we understand sin. God so LOVED the world that He GAVE His only begotten Son. That is how God shows us He loves us BTW. It is not by giving us red drapes. But MAN loved darkness rather than light and unfortunately that includes you and I and VP.
It is hard for me to fathom a time when man has truly been too sin conscious.
VP made a point of having his ministry different from the oppressiveness of sin culture that dominates religion? Actually, VP fled a faith. He fled Christianity because we are sin conscious. We have to be. WE ARE SINNERS!!!! We are constrained from sin, because we understand the gospel, we follow and love Jesus, we magnify Him, and we know sin is abhorrent to Him. The Holy Spirit, whom Jesus sent to convict and constrain us......gently points to our sin. So, that we can STOP.
Of course VP fled a place where sin is brought to the light. He didn't want to stop sinning and he didn't ....he just got progressively worse. He embraced it fully.....he followed another path.....and he built himself a religion where he was Lord and master....not Jesus. A place and theology where he could keep sinning and live well while doing it. "Oh well" we are already sinners...right?
Being aware of sin is not evil. Bearing one anothers burden is not evil. As Christians what exactly are our burdens? What are we to lay aside?
Your post just jumped to extremes. Us against them....black and white.....Christianity is evil is what I heard.....because we are sin conscious...very sin conscious. The scriptures point us to the savior FROM sin. Not a Savior who allows us to continue in sin, but saves us from it.....VP lead us away from such a faith. In the Christian faith....being aware of sin is very important. Big sins, acceptable sins, little sins......we help each other because we are sinners, but we don't want to sin. We want to follow Jesus
quote: He absorbed the full wrath of God. Wrath toward sin.
Whoa! En garde! Full wrath of God???? Where do you get that? God is light; in Him is no darkness at all. You're saying He's a child abuser.
quote: Christianity is evil is what I heard.
Then that's what you're going to "hear" every time I post anything, right?
Don't blame her. You missed the entire point of her post and tried to isolate
a verse of Scripture, changing its meaning, to try to say she was wrong.
If you keep polarizing everything, others will keep noticing.
Gee, I have never heard that one before. Huh, well, maybe I have and used it myself when Christians tried to share the gospel with me. And sure, that lengthy post simply said God is a child abuser...yep, that is what it was all about.
What does it say after it says God is light and in Him is no darkness at all? It tells us what is required to cleanse us from all sin. God required His blood......is that not descriptive enough for you to understand God's wrath toward sin? God treated Jesus as if He was guilty of all sin ever committed though He never sinned. God set the standards....only He knows what would completely satisfy Him.
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. God could have chosen any way to do it.
If we can stop and just think for a second....without PFAL filters....maybe, we can understand that a HOLY God can be light and have wrath towards sin.
He is just and it is just and right to abhor evil. What part of light don't you understand?
It would have been an abusive thing if Jesus had not first willingly taken on the sins of the world. However, once He did that.....what did He become? Accursed for the sin He bore. Cursed is everyone that hangs on a tree. Do you remember what Jesus said to Peter after Jesus had painstakingly explained the manner in which He would die? He said, Get thee behind me Satan you savor the things of men, not of God. Why? Because as incredible as it sounds...this was God's deliberate plan. Peter didn't understand.
What happened on that cross is too amazing to fathom.
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. The devil didn't do that GOD did.
Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makeshis life an offering for sin.......
Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?
What is the proper response to sin? What is Gods response to sin? His response is the right one. God is angry with the wicked everyday......God hates sin....but that hate is JUST it is RIGHT and it is not darkness.
God is too pure to look on evil....you really don't know any of this about God?That He is so holy, the scriptures say He is holy, holy, holy.
God is rightly wrathful towards sin....Jesus became sin......Jesus took what was due us....the full wrath of God......why wrath? Because we are sinners. Jesus took it upon Himself. God had to be satisfied. If Jesus didn't absorb the full wrath of God....we are not saved. Saved from what? What do the scriptures tell us we are saved from? Could it be the wrath to come? Wrath towards what?
The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath.
We are talking about God...not some genie in the sky. A holy, just right, and loving God who provided the sacrifice, who spent His anger, and who showed us His love.
The gospel is amazing and what happened on that cross was an intersection of mercy and wrath...justice and grace.
How can you not know this?
Because he does not WISH to know this.
Verses that say the opposite of twi dogma are IGNORED.
If they are brought up, the subject is CHANGED.
Nothing must be allowed to interrupt the illusion that twi doctrine was healthy always.
God is love vs. the Wrath of God. Obvious contradiction. The Bible is filled with them. Rather than accept that fact, discuss it and deal with it logically, Mr.Wierwille's brand of Christianity, instead, chooses to live in denial. Nope. No contradictions. Just accept that what Wierwille tells you will solve any discrepancies. Just ask "The Teacher".
"En Gard!" That's how a Way indoctrinated person deals with difficult issues. Simply take a defensive stance and lunge at the problem with isolated bits and pieces of scripture that say what you want them to say. Don't ever dare to stop and consider anything thoughtfully. That's what Eve did. Look what happened to her. (Black and white thinking. No middle road. You're either on the Word or you're off. Either you're for us or against us.) Life is seldom, if ever, that simple. That's why critical thinking skills are a vital part of living. Unfortunately, VPW's "ministry" was diametrically opposed to rational thought. There was even a class (Dealing With The Adversary) that was specifically designed to instruct the students in this anemic process of thinking. Did Wierwille have a "ministry"? Not in any way, shape or form. (In my opinion)
God is love vs. the Wrath of God. Obvious contradiction to you.. The Bible is filled with them in your opinion. Rather than accept that fact I'll accept its' being apparent), discuss it and deal with it logically, Mr.Wierwille's brand of Christianity, instead, chooses to live in denial (Agreed!). Nope. No contradictions. Just accept that what Wierwille tells you will solve any discrepancies. Just ask "The Teacher"."En Gard!"That's how a Way indoctrinated person deals with difficult issues. Simply take a defensive stance and lunge at the problem with isolated bits and pieces of scripture that say what you want them to say. Don't ever dare to stop and consider anything thoughtfully. That's what Eve did. Look what happened to her. (Black and white thinking. No middle road. You're either on the Word or you're off. Either you're for us or against us.) Life is seldom, if ever, that simple. That's why critical thinking skills are a vital part of living (well said). Unfortunately, VPW's "ministry" was diametrically opposed to rational thought. Did Wierwille have a "ministry"? Not in any way, shape or form. (In my opinion)
Much of the success of Wierwille's "ministry" is due to how he dealt with a phenomenon called cognitive dissonance. ---"Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding conflicting ideas simultaneously."--- For instance: The Old Testament depicts God as someone who is capable of wrath and anger. The New Testament, on the other hand, depicts God as someone who is all love and light. These are two conflicting concepts. And, to add to the dissonance, The Bible also says that God never changes. So, how does one reconcile these differences so that they can coexist? Wierwille had the "answer". This answer hinged entirely on The Great Principle (God, being spirit, can only talk to that which He is, spirit.) and the threefold nature of man (body, soul, spirit). According to Wierwille, God had to depict himself as having human qualities, in O.T times, because the people who existed at that time had no spirit. They were only body and soul, and thus could not understand spiritual matters. With the arrival of the "New Birth" and the holy spirit gift, man was now a threefold being and, as such, could understand the more spiritual aspects of The Bible. Of course, Wierwille then used scripture to bolster that opinion and give it credibility. He also used it to generate an attitude of elitism in his devotees. We had "special powers" that enabled us to understand the deeper matters of life that were hidden from the "natural man". The Great Principle and The Threefold Man comprised the bridge that allowed us to cross from a place of rational thinking to a place of rationalization.
I haven't seen more puss filled black and white thinking than your hatred of VP. Your whole position is flawed. Ben Roethlisberger is a good NFL quarterback. But you all would say that he can't possibly be a good quarterback because he sexually assaulted at least one woman. How ridiculous! Ulysses S. Grant can't possibly be the right general for Lincoln to use because he drank too much. Ridiculous again! Being a man of God isn't just this moral platitude where you just keep your penis in your pants and miraculously God will make all the bad stuff go away. A man of God has to actually DO STUFF. Make right decisions. Decisions about what to emphasize, what to not emphasize, what to include in classes and teachings, what not to include. To borrow terminology from our president, VP may have been the only 'shovel ready' MOG around at the time.
You all represent the kind of religion pfal delivered us from. Saved by works, not grace. Jesus is God, not the son of God. Dead people are floating around with Jesus, not dead. Scripture disagrees with you. Believe what you want, but scripture disagrees with you.
VPW did stuff? . . . Why didn't he teach anyone else to do stuff? . . . Just look at his followers . . . Guess he was just a lone flash in the pan . . .
I haven't seen more puss filled black and white thinking than your hatred of VP. Your whole position is flawed. Ben Roethlisberger is a good NFL quarterback. But you all would say that he can't possibly be a good quarterback because he sexually assaulted at least one woman. How ridiculous! Ulysses S. Grant can't possibly be the right general for Lincoln to use because he drank too much. Ridiculous again! Being a man of God isn't just this moral platitude where you just keep your penis in your pants and miraculously God will make all the bad stuff go away. A man of God has to actually DO STUFF. Make right decisions. Decisions about what to emphasize, what to not emphasize, what to include in classes and teachings, what not to include. To borrow terminology from our president, VP may have been the only 'shovel ready' MOG around at the time.
You all represent the kind of religion pfal delivered us from. Saved by works, not grace. Jesus is God, not the son of God. Dead people are floating around with Jesus, not dead. Scripture disagrees with you. Believe what you want, but scripture disagrees with you.
Yes, I agree A MOG has to do things. One of the things he does for us all is to set an example. After all, he represents Christ walking among us. Isn't that why we're supposed to give the MOG so much respect.
Now, I don't think Christ ment for his ministry to be represented as one that approved of alcoholism, adultry, lies (plagiarism), and on and on. If I'm to buy into your view of vp, God wanted a ministry of abortions, adultry, and suicides. Do you think I want to worship a god like that?
Granted, vp was a man and he was entitled to his mistakes. But by being unremorseful and unrepentant he forfeited any forgiveness (from mortals) he should have gotten. By insisting on continuing on a path he knew was wrong (odd how he told everyone else to keep their pants zipped, isn't it), he forfeited any forgiveness we mortals owed him. God can do with him what he will, I have no say in that.
Discussing sports heros and MOGs is apples and oranges: Your quarterback example didn't ask for our trust. Vp did. Grant didn't claim he had the word of god as it was spoke when holy men of god were moved by the holy ghost. Vp did.
Shovel ready MOG. I'll give him this: he had a shovel alright and it was always ready. And he would shovel it on at a moments notice.
Saved by grace and not works huh? But then grace without works is dead. Kinda circular, isn't it?
"Pus filled black and white thinking"? My first question: who's the real victim here? The people whose lives vp wrecked, or the MOG that's not really bad, just misunderstood? Why aren't you as concerned about his victims?
As for vp's good works, if you roll manure in sugar, it doesn't suddenly become a custard bismark.
Being a man of God isn't just this moral platitude where you just keep your penis in your pants and miraculously God will make all the bad stuff go away
Nowhere in The Bible does it say a football player should be beyond reproach.
VP did make decisions. When he saw how catastrophic the L.E.A.D. program was, that women were being raped, people were being maimed, people were being killed, he decided to continue it anyway. When he had a chance to mourn with the corps over the death of Gary D., he chose, instead, to point fingers of blame at undeserving people. When he saw that his boozing and carousing was a factor in the death of Sandra Sullivan, he could have decided to show some remorse and repentance and conduct himself in a manner more fitting of the position he held. Instead, he carried on with his unsavory behavior as usual. When he had a chance to counsel Kristen in an appropriate manner, he decided, instead, to take advantage of her vulnerability. I think I better stop there for the sake of saving space.
You all represent the kind of religion pfal delivered us from.
what is the *kind* of religion of which you speak? vic's religion said one thing, and did another.. no wonder they hate the book of James..
Saved by works, not grace. Jesus is God, not the son of God. Dead people are floating around with Jesus, not dead.
and what? or rather, so what. Even if it is *wrong*.. how does that damage people any less than vic's Crowleyian "do as thy will" interpretation of scripture? At least Crowley was honest..
Scripture disagrees with you. Believe what you want, but scripture disagrees with you.
we will see, won't we..
I would be very, very afraid, if I were you..
I mean.. you've got all of your eggs in the redemption basket.
What if you are, simply, WRONG?
what if you woke up one day.. and found EVERYTHING you thought and believed was just plain WRONG?
Nowhere in The Bible does it say a football player should be beyond reproach.
VP did make decisions. When he saw how catastrophic the L.E.A.D. program was, that women were being raped, people were being maimed, people were being killed, he decided to continue it anyway. When he had a chance to mourn with the corps over the death of Gary D., he chose, instead, to point fingers of blame at undeserving people. When he saw that his boozing and carousing was a factor in the death of Sandra Sullivan, he could have decided to show some remorse and repentance and conduct himself in a manner more fitting of the position he held . Instead, he carried on with his unsavory behavior as usual. When he had a chance to counsel Kristen in an appropriate manner, he decided, instead, to take advantage of her vulnerability. I think I better stop there for the sake of saving space.
VP should have resigned his position, or should have been removed from office immediately the very first time he acted out sexually outside the bonds of his marriage.
Those who were aware of his behavior and participated in his cover ups should have also resigned or been removed.
I haven't seen more puss filled black and white thinking than your hatred of VP. Your whole position is flawed. Ben Roethlisberger is a good NFL quarterback. But you all would say that he can't possibly be a good quarterback because he sexually assaulted at least one woman. How ridiculous! Ulysses S. Grant can't possibly be the right general for Lincoln to use because he drank too much. Ridiculous again! Being a man of God isn't just this moral platitude where you just keep your penis in your pants and miraculously God will make all the bad stuff go away. A man of God has to actually DO STUFF. Make right decisions. Decisions about what to emphasize, what to not emphasize, what to include in classes and teachings, what not to include. To borrow terminology from our president, VP may have been the only 'shovel ready' MOG around at the time.
You all represent the kind of religion pfal delivered us from. Saved by works, not grace. Jesus is God, not the son of God. Dead people are floating around with Jesus, not dead. Scripture disagrees with you. Believe what you want, but scripture disagrees with you.
Scripture...... lays out in a crystal clear fashion what a minister (MOG)should be....it doesn't get more specific than Timothy, Titus, 1st Peter, and Jude. Not to mention Jesus' own words in the gospels. Paul warnings to the Corinthians....and also in Galatians. You just don't want to hear it.
As far as the faith..... PFAL lead us away from......it is the Christian faith we were lead away from. It is the Christian faith you have such disdain for....and as plain and as simply as I can put it. VP taught you another gospel. It is not a saving gospel.
It is clearly evident you still adhere to it .....evident by your lack of knowledge and understanding about what happened on the cross. The cross BTW which we eschewed. ...the cross we tore down from a Chapel. People cheered as that cross was torn down. That speaks volumes about what we were. We mocked the cross.
God forbid that I should glory save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I care about you. I care about what happened in TWI. What I can no longer appreciate is your attitude.......why you cannot just consider the scriptures with us for a moment. The way you post......it sounds like anyone other than those who still follow TWI dogma.....are enemies...... unenlightened. Although, it seems most here understand what was taught in PFAL far better than you do. You do speak in generalities.
Remember?.....At one time..... we were all there...we had the same mindset....the same dogmatic beliefs.
But, we were the ones in an anti-Christian cult. We were the ones lead astray. We were the ones who did not understand and we were the ones who believed things scripture does not support.
.....we don't have to stay there.......that is the truth.
Having been shown unable to support his position from Scripture,
John seems to have fallen back on personal attacks to try to change
the subject. Someone once called that "argumentum ad yourmomium."
When you see this, it's as good as a confession. He cannot defend
his position and he will not consider that he might be wrong.
I haven't seen more puss filled black and white thinking than your hatred of VP. Your whole position is flawed.
In other words, "yo mama."
Amazing how the black-and-white thinker here- the one who insists vpw MUST be lauded
because John learned some good stuff- accuses the others of the black-and-white
thinking. Old news. The Pharisees accused Jesus, too.
Ben Roethlisberger is a good NFL quarterback. But you all would say that he can't possibly be a good quarterback because he sexually assaulted at least one woman. How ridiculous! Ulysses S. Grant can't possibly be the right general for Lincoln to use because he drank too much. Ridiculous again!
They are ridiculous. And it was ridiculous of John to try to put those words
in our mouths. Sports champions and military leaders are not MORAL examples,
and were never meant to be. Those teaching about God Almighty are supposed to like
what He likes, dislike what He dislikes, and do what He says to do.
They are NOT to just "do as they fool well please" and claim God is fine with that.
It's ridiculous to make the comparison.
But, after all, when one is unable to defend one's position from Scripture OR justice,
one is faced with either admitting one was wrong (John will go to his grave
refusing this), or use ridiculous changes of subject to try to make a felon and
hypocrite look like "one of the guys."
Being a man of God isn't just this moral platitude where you just keep your penis in your pants and miraculously God will make all the bad stuff go away. A man of God has to actually DO STUFF. Make right decisions. Decisions about what to emphasize, what to not emphasize, what to include in classes and teachings, what not to include.
Being a man of God isn't just this "teach twice a week" then you can break all God's rules
and instructions the rest of the week thing. As one claiming to teach about God, he must
DO STUFF- he must SHOW BY EXAMPLE what God wants us to do and avoid what God wants us to
avoid. "DOING STUFF" is a lot more meaningful than just a classroom and charts-
and teaches bigger lessons by DOING. MOST Christians get this easily. Seems only vpw holdouts
have trouble with this.
To borrow terminology from our president, VP may have been the only 'shovel ready' MOG around at the time.
My God is not that small. There were plenty of Christians around who WERE
teaching the right things. In fact, the Jesus People were reaching a lot of people
before vpw INTERFERED and DIVERTED them, and BG Leonard was a lot more reluctant
to preach in the USA after someone stole his material and claimed it was his own.
vpw, rather than being a MOG, DIVERTED the MOGs of the time and IMPEDED GENUINE
MOVEMENTS OF GOD.
But, you know, don't let history stop you from re-imagining things some way that
transforms an evil man into a MOG.
You all represent the kind of religion pfal delivered us from. Saved by works, not grace. Jesus is God, not the son of God. Dead people are floating around with Jesus, not dead.
We never claimed these things. In other words, he said "yo mama" again.
Scripture disagrees with you. Believe what you want, but scripture disagrees with you.
We demonstrated Scripture agreed with us.
Scripture may disagree with the ridiculous position you made up, but that's fine,
it has nothing to do with us.
Not that anyone really believed that-
it was all a "weapon of mass distraction" so John could imagine some sort of
moral victory and change the subject off of an evil hypocrite.
Kind of makes you wonder who the next alcoholic, lying, raping, tin plated, overbearing, swaggering, dictator with delusions of godhood is waiting in the wings to be the next "shovel ready man of god," doesn't it?
Kind of makes you wonder who the next alcoholic, lying, raping, tin plated, overbearing, swaggering, dictator with delusions of godhood is waiting in the wings to be the next "shovel ready man of god," doesn't it?
OMG, OMG, its the next shovel ready MOG!
SoCrates
It's really tough for the self-proclaimed "shovel-ready" MOGs.
For one thing, people like GSC'ers keep airing their dirty laundry.
People like JALvis just wish we'd go away.
Others do the same- M1chael R00d's wishing they'd go away, too.
For another thing, they keep ending up in jail.
They all want to decide their particular vices are fine with God.
The government keeps drawing the line at sex with minors and otherwise
catch them committing crimes.
On the other hand, there's always 2 more guys ready to take the place of each one the
Those teaching about God Almighty are supposed to like
what He likes, dislike what He dislikes, and do what He says to do.
They are NOT to just "do as they fool well please" and claim God is fine with that.
. . . . . . . .
Being a man of God isn't just this "teach twice a week" then you can break all God's rules
and instructions the rest of the week thing. As one claiming to teach about God, he must
DO STUFF- he must SHOW BY EXAMPLE what God wants us to do and avoid what God wants us to
avoid. "DOING STUFF" is a lot more meaningful than just a classroom and charts-
and teaches bigger lessons by DOING. MOST Christians get this easily.
. . . . . . . and change the subject off of an evil hypocrite.
I don't think you can ignore this one Johniam....it is about as straight forward as it gets.....it is right-on....but, it begs the question......what is it God likes and dislikes? That is a question you need to answer for yourself.
See how WordWolf has no problem calling an evil hypocrite...an evil hypocrite. I am pretty sure that is because he is secure in his understanding of just what is evil and also what is good.
Kind of makes you wonder who the next alcoholic, lying, raping, tin plated, overbearing, swaggering, dictator with delusions of godhood is waiting in the wings to be the next "shovel ready man of god," doesn't it?
quote: I would be very, very afraid, if I were you..
I mean.. you've got all of your eggs in the redemption basket.
What if you are, simply, WRONG?
what if you woke up one day.. and found EVERYTHING you thought and believed was just plain WRONG?
where would you go, what would you do?
I can ask you the same question. But the only way to find out is to wait for the gathering together...OR the resurrection of the unjust. I'm not afraid. Hmm. The band ACDC performed 'Highway to hell' at Bon Scott's funeral. They're not afraid, either. I've heard that Highway to hell AND Hotel California are both about the music business. So you admit that all you want to do is make people afraid.
Jeremiah 20:3b,4 - Then said Jeremiah to him, the Lord hath not called thy name Pashur, but Magormisabib (fear all around). For thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will make thee a terror to thyself and to all thy friends, and they shall fall by the sword of their enemiesand thine eyes shall behold it; and I will give all Judah into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall carry them captive into Babylon, and shall slay them with the sword.
Do you realize that if Johniam had not started piping in with his opinions, we wouldn't have had so much to talk about during these last days of GSC?
So I've begun asking myself, what is keeping me coming back to read these posts? Besides this thread, Johniam has very little bearing on my life. So why do I care what he thinks if I am so convinced I'm right? We all know he will argue any point that is contrary to his beliefs, sometimes with completely illogical reasoning. So, why do I keep on reading and responding. I even said I was going to stop at one time.
Is it because I have a concern for Johniam's welfare? Perhaps a little, but I keep driving around the block again and again. Why? Am I trying to impress myself and others with my "great intellectual grasp of spiritual matters"? I certainly hope not because I have no great intellectual grasp on much of anything except when it's time to eat. Maybe I'm afraid he's right?.......Nah, that's not it!. Perhaps I'm really saying the things in my posts to someone else who left the premises a long time ago. Now that thought resonates with me.
The person who stole from me took off with the goods and is not coming back to account for the crime. I have so much I wish I would have said and done. Johniam's posts have given me an opportunity to say them, but I'm talking to the wrong guy. Nevertheless, I entertain the thought that if I can't have my day of reckoning with the offender, maybe I can deconstruct his ideas. I don't have that power, I wish I did. Then again, it's probably good that I don't. I cannot get back what was stolen. The broken heart can be healed but trying to regain, trying to get paid back, is impossible.
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Broken Arrow
I
WordWolf
Have I mentioned lately that I'm actually getting quite a bit out of this thread? I don't just mean in a sense of psychology/sociology/criminology, but in a sense of Christian learning. The whole p
T-Bone
morals are man-made? Really?!?! please provide some documentation to back up that philosophical assertion. personally i lean toward the christian idea [that does have a biblical basis] that man is m
geisha779
Gee, I have never heard that one before. Huh, well, maybe I have and used it myself when Christians tried to share the gospel with me. And sure, that lengthy post simply said God is a child abuser...yep, that is what it was all about.
What does it say after it says God is light and in Him is no darkness at all? It tells us what is required to cleanse us from all sin. God required His blood......is that not descriptive enough for you to understand God's wrath toward sin? God treated Jesus as if He was guilty of all sin ever committed though He never sinned. God set the standards....only He knows what would completely satisfy Him.
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. God could have chosen any way to do it.
If we can stop and just think for a second....without PFAL filters....maybe, we can understand that a HOLY God can be light and have wrath towards sin.
He is just and it is just and right to abhor evil. What part of light don't you understand?
It would have been an abusive thing if Jesus had not first willingly taken on the sins of the world. However, once He did that.....what did He become? Accursed for the sin He bore. Cursed is everyone that hangs on a tree. Do you remember what Jesus said to Peter after Jesus had painstakingly explained the manner in which He would die? He said, Get thee behind me Satan you savor the things of men, not of God. Why? Because as incredible as it sounds...this was God's deliberate plan. Peter didn't understand.
What happened on that cross is too amazing to fathom.
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. The devil didn't do that GOD did.
Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life an offering for sin.......
Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?
What is the proper response to sin? What is Gods response to sin? His response is the right one. God is angry with the wicked everyday......God hates sin....but that hate is JUST it is RIGHT and it is not darkness.
God is too pure to look on evil....you really don't know any of this about God? That He is so holy, the scriptures say He is holy, holy, holy.
God is rightly wrathful towards sin....Jesus became sin......Jesus took what was due us....the full wrath of God......why wrath? Because we are sinners. Jesus took it upon Himself. God had to be satisfied. If Jesus didn't absorb the full wrath of God....we are not saved. Saved from what? What do the scriptures tell us we are saved from? Could it be the wrath to come? Wrath towards what?
The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath.
We are talking about God...not some genie in the sky. A holy, just right, and loving God who provided the sacrifice, who spent His anger, and who showed us His love.
The gospel is amazing and what happened on that cross was an intersection of mercy and wrath...justice and grace.
How can you not know this?
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waysider
God is love vs. the Wrath of God. Obvious contradiction. The Bible is filled with them. Rather than accept that fact, discuss it and deal with it logically, Mr.Wierwille's brand of Christianity, instead, chooses to live in denial. Nope. No contradictions. Just accept that what Wierwille tells you will solve any discrepancies. Just ask "The Teacher".
"En Gard!" That's how a Way indoctrinated person deals with difficult issues. Simply take a defensive stance and lunge at the problem with isolated bits and pieces of scripture that say what you want them to say. Don't ever dare to stop and consider anything thoughtfully. That's what Eve did. Look what happened to her. (Black and white thinking. No middle road. You're either on the Word or you're off. Either you're for us or against us.) Life is seldom, if ever, that simple. That's why critical thinking skills are a vital part of living. Unfortunately, VPW's "ministry" was diametrically opposed to rational thought. There was even a class (Dealing With The Adversary) that was specifically designed to instruct the students in this anemic process of thinking. Did Wierwille have a "ministry"? Not in any way, shape or form. (In my opinion)
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WordWolf
Don't blame her. You missed the entire point of her post and tried to isolate
a verse of Scripture, changing its meaning, to try to say she was wrong.
If you keep polarizing everything, others will keep noticing.
Because he does not WISH to know this.
Verses that say the opposite of twi dogma are IGNORED.
If they are brought up, the subject is CHANGED.
Nothing must be allowed to interrupt the illusion that twi doctrine was healthy always.
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Broken Arrow
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WordWolf
My thinking was, by discussing it and thinking logically,
we could determine if an apparent contradiction was a contradiction
IN FACT or if it merely APPEARED SO and a more complete understanding
would resolve the conflict.
The emphasis, of course, being on DISCUSSION and LOGICAL THINKING
rather than a "vpw said it, that settles it, I believe it"
approach which is so obviously unhealthy.
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waysider
Much of the success of Wierwille's "ministry" is due to how he dealt with a phenomenon called cognitive dissonance. ---"Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding conflicting ideas simultaneously."--- For instance: The Old Testament depicts God as someone who is capable of wrath and anger. The New Testament, on the other hand, depicts God as someone who is all love and light. These are two conflicting concepts. And, to add to the dissonance, The Bible also says that God never changes. So, how does one reconcile these differences so that they can coexist? Wierwille had the "answer". This answer hinged entirely on The Great Principle (God, being spirit, can only talk to that which He is, spirit.) and the threefold nature of man (body, soul, spirit). According to Wierwille, God had to depict himself as having human qualities, in O.T times, because the people who existed at that time had no spirit. They were only body and soul, and thus could not understand spiritual matters. With the arrival of the "New Birth" and the holy spirit gift, man was now a threefold being and, as such, could understand the more spiritual aspects of The Bible. Of course, Wierwille then used scripture to bolster that opinion and give it credibility. He also used it to generate an attitude of elitism in his devotees. We had "special powers" that enabled us to understand the deeper matters of life that were hidden from the "natural man". The Great Principle and The Threefold Man comprised the bridge that allowed us to cross from a place of rational thinking to a place of rationalization.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
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johniam
I haven't seen more puss filled black and white thinking than your hatred of VP. Your whole position is flawed. Ben Roethlisberger is a good NFL quarterback. But you all would say that he can't possibly be a good quarterback because he sexually assaulted at least one woman. How ridiculous! Ulysses S. Grant can't possibly be the right general for Lincoln to use because he drank too much. Ridiculous again! Being a man of God isn't just this moral platitude where you just keep your penis in your pants and miraculously God will make all the bad stuff go away. A man of God has to actually DO STUFF. Make right decisions. Decisions about what to emphasize, what to not emphasize, what to include in classes and teachings, what not to include. To borrow terminology from our president, VP may have been the only 'shovel ready' MOG around at the time.
You all represent the kind of religion pfal delivered us from. Saved by works, not grace. Jesus is God, not the son of God. Dead people are floating around with Jesus, not dead. Scripture disagrees with you. Believe what you want, but scripture disagrees with you.
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Bolshevik
VPW did stuff? . . . Why didn't he teach anyone else to do stuff? . . . Just look at his followers . . . Guess he was just a lone flash in the pan . . .
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So_crates
Yes, I agree A MOG has to do things. One of the things he does for us all is to set an example. After all, he represents Christ walking among us. Isn't that why we're supposed to give the MOG so much respect.
Now, I don't think Christ ment for his ministry to be represented as one that approved of alcoholism, adultry, lies (plagiarism), and on and on. If I'm to buy into your view of vp, God wanted a ministry of abortions, adultry, and suicides. Do you think I want to worship a god like that?
Granted, vp was a man and he was entitled to his mistakes. But by being unremorseful and unrepentant he forfeited any forgiveness (from mortals) he should have gotten. By insisting on continuing on a path he knew was wrong (odd how he told everyone else to keep their pants zipped, isn't it), he forfeited any forgiveness we mortals owed him. God can do with him what he will, I have no say in that.
Discussing sports heros and MOGs is apples and oranges: Your quarterback example didn't ask for our trust. Vp did. Grant didn't claim he had the word of god as it was spoke when holy men of god were moved by the holy ghost. Vp did.
Shovel ready MOG.
I'll give him this: he had a shovel alright and it was always ready. And he would shovel it on at a moments notice.
Saved by grace and not works huh? But then grace without works is dead. Kinda circular, isn't it?
"Pus filled black and white thinking"? My first question: who's the real victim here? The people whose lives vp wrecked, or the MOG that's not really bad, just misunderstood? Why aren't you as concerned about his victims?
As for vp's good works, if you roll manure in sugar, it doesn't suddenly become a custard bismark.
SoCrates
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excathedra
what are you talking about ???????
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waysider
Nowhere in The Bible does it say a football player should be beyond reproach.
VP did make decisions. When he saw how catastrophic the L.E.A.D. program was, that women were being raped, people were being maimed, people were being killed, he decided to continue it anyway. When he had a chance to mourn with the corps over the death of Gary D., he chose, instead, to point fingers of blame at undeserving people. When he saw that his boozing and carousing was a factor in the death of Sandra Sullivan, he could have decided to show some remorse and repentance and conduct himself in a manner more fitting of the position he held. Instead, he carried on with his unsavory behavior as usual. When he had a chance to counsel Kristen in an appropriate manner, he decided, instead, to take advantage of her vulnerability. I think I better stop there for the sake of saving space.
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waysider
"As for vp's good works, if you roll manure in sugar, it doesn't suddenly become a custard bismark."
Take a big bite. There's a surprise inside.
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Ham
what is the *kind* of religion of which you speak? vic's religion said one thing, and did another.. no wonder they hate the book of James..
and what? or rather, so what. Even if it is *wrong*.. how does that damage people any less than vic's Crowleyian "do as thy will" interpretation of scripture? At least Crowley was honest..
we will see, won't we..
I would be very, very afraid, if I were you..
I mean.. you've got all of your eggs in the redemption basket.
What if you are, simply, WRONG?
what if you woke up one day.. and found EVERYTHING you thought and believed was just plain WRONG?
where would you go, what would you do?
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cman
who is that?
as seen through pfal i guess
johniam, you are not specific about much
what is really bugging you anyway
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Broken Arrow
VP should have resigned his position, or should have been removed from office immediately the very first time he acted out sexually outside the bonds of his marriage.
Those who were aware of his behavior and participated in his cover ups should have also resigned or been removed.
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geisha779
Scripture...... lays out in a crystal clear fashion what a minister (MOG)should be....it doesn't get more specific than Timothy, Titus, 1st Peter, and Jude. Not to mention Jesus' own words in the gospels. Paul warnings to the Corinthians....and also in Galatians. You just don't want to hear it.
As far as the faith..... PFAL lead us away from......it is the Christian faith we were lead away from. It is the Christian faith you have such disdain for....and as plain and as simply as I can put it. VP taught you another gospel. It is not a saving gospel.
It is clearly evident you still adhere to it .....evident by your lack of knowledge and understanding about what happened on the cross. The cross BTW which we eschewed. ...the cross we tore down from a Chapel. People cheered as that cross was torn down. That speaks volumes about what we were. We mocked the cross.
God forbid that I should glory save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I care about you. I care about what happened in TWI. What I can no longer appreciate is your attitude.......why you cannot just consider the scriptures with us for a moment. The way you post......it sounds like anyone other than those who still follow TWI dogma.....are enemies...... unenlightened. Although, it seems most here understand what was taught in PFAL far better than you do. You do speak in generalities.
Remember?.....At one time..... we were all there...we had the same mindset....the same dogmatic beliefs.
But, we were the ones in an anti-Christian cult. We were the ones lead astray. We were the ones who did not understand and we were the ones who believed things scripture does not support.
.....we don't have to stay there.......that is the truth.
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WordWolf
Having been shown unable to support his position from Scripture,
John seems to have fallen back on personal attacks to try to change
the subject. Someone once called that "argumentum ad yourmomium."
When you see this, it's as good as a confession. He cannot defend
his position and he will not consider that he might be wrong.
In other words, "yo mama."
Amazing how the black-and-white thinker here- the one who insists vpw MUST be lauded
because John learned some good stuff- accuses the others of the black-and-white
thinking. Old news. The Pharisees accused Jesus, too.
They are ridiculous. And it was ridiculous of John to try to put those words
in our mouths. Sports champions and military leaders are not MORAL examples,
and were never meant to be. Those teaching about God Almighty are supposed to like
what He likes, dislike what He dislikes, and do what He says to do.
They are NOT to just "do as they fool well please" and claim God is fine with that.
It's ridiculous to make the comparison.
But, after all, when one is unable to defend one's position from Scripture OR justice,
one is faced with either admitting one was wrong (John will go to his grave
refusing this), or use ridiculous changes of subject to try to make a felon and
hypocrite look like "one of the guys."
Being a man of God isn't just this "teach twice a week" then you can break all God's rules
and instructions the rest of the week thing. As one claiming to teach about God, he must
DO STUFF- he must SHOW BY EXAMPLE what God wants us to do and avoid what God wants us to
avoid. "DOING STUFF" is a lot more meaningful than just a classroom and charts-
and teaches bigger lessons by DOING. MOST Christians get this easily. Seems only vpw holdouts
have trouble with this.
My God is not that small. There were plenty of Christians around who WERE
teaching the right things. In fact, the Jesus People were reaching a lot of people
before vpw INTERFERED and DIVERTED them, and BG Leonard was a lot more reluctant
to preach in the USA after someone stole his material and claimed it was his own.
vpw, rather than being a MOG, DIVERTED the MOGs of the time and IMPEDED GENUINE
MOVEMENTS OF GOD.
But, you know, don't let history stop you from re-imagining things some way that
transforms an evil man into a MOG.
We never claimed these things. In other words, he said "yo mama" again.
We demonstrated Scripture agreed with us.
Scripture may disagree with the ridiculous position you made up, but that's fine,
it has nothing to do with us.
Not that anyone really believed that-
it was all a "weapon of mass distraction" so John could imagine some sort of
moral victory and change the subject off of an evil hypocrite.
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So_crates
Kind of makes you wonder who the next alcoholic, lying, raping, tin plated, overbearing, swaggering, dictator with delusions of godhood is waiting in the wings to be the next "shovel ready man of god," doesn't it?
OMG, OMG, its the next shovel ready MOG!
SoCrates
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WordWolf
It's really tough for the self-proclaimed "shovel-ready" MOGs.
For one thing, people like GSC'ers keep airing their dirty laundry.
People like JALvis just wish we'd go away.
Others do the same- M1chael R00d's wishing they'd go away, too.
For another thing, they keep ending up in jail.
They all want to decide their particular vices are fine with God.
The government keeps drawing the line at sex with minors and otherwise
catch them committing crimes.
On the other hand, there's always 2 more guys ready to take the place of each one the
law puts in prison.
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geisha779
I don't think you can ignore this one Johniam....it is about as straight forward as it gets.....it is right-on....but, it begs the question......what is it God likes and dislikes? That is a question you need to answer for yourself.
See how WordWolf has no problem calling an evil hypocrite...an evil hypocrite. I am pretty sure that is because he is secure in his understanding of just what is evil and also what is good.
That is a freeing place to be.
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Ham
I really, really hope he (or she) isn't here
I've been on the receiving end of this kind of wrath at time. No, not from this life, the last one.. or was it the one before..
the one I can't remember..
somehow, I *royally* p*ssed somebody off in a previous time..
the next time around.. it will be the administrators of student loans, hunting for my soul..
I'll say.. wtf. I never did anything to you fella..
but I will *emerge*.. with some innate understanding of mathematics..
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johniam
quote: I would be very, very afraid, if I were you..
I mean.. you've got all of your eggs in the redemption basket.
What if you are, simply, WRONG?
what if you woke up one day.. and found EVERYTHING you thought and believed was just plain WRONG?
where would you go, what would you do?
I can ask you the same question. But the only way to find out is to wait for the gathering together...OR the resurrection of the unjust. I'm not afraid. Hmm. The band ACDC performed 'Highway to hell' at Bon Scott's funeral. They're not afraid, either. I've heard that Highway to hell AND Hotel California are both about the music business. So you admit that all you want to do is make people afraid.
Jeremiah 20:3b,4 - Then said Jeremiah to him, the Lord hath not called thy name Pashur, but Magormisabib (fear all around). For thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will make thee a terror to thyself and to all thy friends, and they shall fall by the sword of their enemiesand thine eyes shall behold it; and I will give all Judah into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall carry them captive into Babylon, and shall slay them with the sword.
Good thing it's the grace administration, huh?
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Ham
what makes you so sure this is the age of "grace"?
what if contrary to da doctrine of lo shanta..
you know. I speaks in da tongues.. it's GOTTA be grace..
what if you were wrong?
where does that leave the vicster? For that matter, where does that leave YOU?
see.. you've relied on vic's theology. He had more than a vested interest in it to be "subjective" with his biblical "research".
I mean.. with his track record, the gospel HAS to show he's going to heaven, hell not being able to stop him, doesn't it?
or what is the alternative..
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Broken Arrow
Do you realize that if Johniam had not started piping in with his opinions, we wouldn't have had so much to talk about during these last days of GSC?
So I've begun asking myself, what is keeping me coming back to read these posts? Besides this thread, Johniam has very little bearing on my life. So why do I care what he thinks if I am so convinced I'm right? We all know he will argue any point that is contrary to his beliefs, sometimes with completely illogical reasoning. So, why do I keep on reading and responding. I even said I was going to stop at one time.
Is it because I have a concern for Johniam's welfare? Perhaps a little, but I keep driving around the block again and again. Why? Am I trying to impress myself and others with my "great intellectual grasp of spiritual matters"? I certainly hope not because I have no great intellectual grasp on much of anything except when it's time to eat. Maybe I'm afraid he's right?.......Nah, that's not it!. Perhaps I'm really saying the things in my posts to someone else who left the premises a long time ago. Now that thought resonates with me.
The person who stole from me took off with the goods and is not coming back to account for the crime. I have so much I wish I would have said and done. Johniam's posts have given me an opportunity to say them, but I'm talking to the wrong guy. Nevertheless, I entertain the thought that if I can't have my day of reckoning with the offender, maybe I can deconstruct his ideas. I don't have that power, I wish I did. Then again, it's probably good that I don't. I cannot get back what was stolen. The broken heart can be healed but trying to regain, trying to get paid back, is impossible.
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