Kit, I have read several wonderful books on this topic. I think the best one was "The Land Unknown: Hell's Dominion" (available on Amazon) by a man who had been born again as a child but grew up absolutely hating and mocking Christians. There was another book, I forget the title. Also, John Bunyan who wrote Pilgrim's Progress had a vision of Hell - this was back in the 1600s I believe. I later read an account by a nun in the 19th century, but it was Bunyan's vision plagerized (no internet back then - she didn't think she'd get caught).
The thing I found interesting about these separate, totally unrelated visions, was that they all seemed to mesh. Centuries apart, they all saw basically the same thing. I do believe in these times, God does give dreams and visions to people for those who wish to learn.
I also know, people have jumped on the bandwagon. Some are true, some are imagination. But I do think God is trying to tell people, life and creation is not always going to go on as it is.
Once I realized the whole Bible was a book of prophecy, some things things fell into place for me. What is the theme? There are basically three themes.
1. Mankind is a fallen race that God wishes to restore and to dwell with them eternally;
2. In order to do this, he will send a redeemer (who is the subject of the prophecy); and
3. The Messiah's message is a "New Creation" coming. Literally a new Heaven and New earth.
The laws of physics and things as we know it will not apply. It will be a new creation - one we cannot imagine.
The Redeemer, the subject of the prophecy has one message: There is a Kingdom coming. Believe in me and enter in and live eternally.
That's it. Its simple. That was Christ's message.
I believe the new coming creation involves new dimensions.
We read in Rev., that after all rebellion and sin is finally put down and the new Heaven and Earth are made, that several things "survive" so to speak, and enter into the new creation: Angels; those who believed the Messiah who is the Christ, and the "Lake of Fire."
The Lake of Fire and its inhabitants is a place, in another dimension which is "outside" the City (Rev. 22:15) and new creation wherein dwells righteousness.
JJ, I do not believe it is unloving. I think people, who hate God, who want nothing to do with him, who have rejected his offer of eternal life - there are people who have demonstrated their preference for anything other than eternal fellowship with God and with all who love light. For them, the experience of forced fellowship with God for an eternity would be less tolerable than hell.
These individuals do not want to be in God's presence and would find heaven and his presence repugnant. Thus, to be fair, God cannot morally command them to believe and dwell with him. It would be "unfair." It would be a gross violation of your free will.
I believe the Lake of Fire (whatever that means - I think it symbolizes something we can't imagine) is a place where people and demons get what they want above all else: Freedom. Yes Freedom.
In that dimension, they get freedom from the Will and Rule of God and freedom from the restraints of conscience and the voice of the Holy Spirit. God yields to the desires of his committed "rebels" by withdrawing forever the influence of His Spirit from their beings.
An individual who knowingly refused to worship God in this life will never change his mind. The price for entrance into the new creation - worship of God - is a price too high to pay.
As Hebrews says: "No sacrifice for sins is left" for those who knowingly discard God's sacred gift.
As far as "torment" goes - the greek word can also mean an immobilization, a distraction, a restraint. I.e., you're thrown in prison. You're a nice guy. There are 8 men who would love to do things to you. At this point, for your safety, the most "loving" thing the guards could do is restrain them, maybe a leg iron so you can sleep at night instead of having to stay awake all night.
God says, at the great white throne judgment men will be judged by their works. Many are violent people, many are just average Joes who wanted nothing to do with God.
God, in his love and mercy has put just enough "torment" or distraction or restraints to keep in check the horrors that could happen in a place where there is no God, love, holy spirit or conscience.
I think the Comforter that was sent into the world, God's Spirit today, blunts the impact of sin and evil in this world (we can't see the spiritual things going on in the dimension of the heavenly), and thus, we tend underestimate evil and its horror and minimize what Christ took on himself on the cross.
But, each one of us does get to choose where we would like to spend eternity. The choice is ours.
Those who "opt out" of redemption and eternity with God and Christ may not like being restrained in another dimension - but they will always be eternally proud of their rebellion against God - their minds will never change.
So, I think its fair.
My question would be: Why, would someone who dislikes God and cannot worship him - even want to spend eternity with him?
It would be like forcing a committed vegetarian to eat meat - they would be repulsed.
Thanks. Your words reflect my sentiments, on the matter. I must read those books you mentioned,thanks. I have long felt that the justice of God would give people what they longed for -- Separation from God and His ways for those that want that, and for the Lord to be close as our breath for those who yearn for that.
Truly the rain on the just and the unjust, the protection in society from wanton evil by social constrains as well as laws and godly placed policemen, social workers, ministers, businesses that give people ways of making a living and contributing to society -- so many people who work to make the world a more godly place and to help others -- as such a place has been Greasespot Cafe --These are all reminders that God loves the world and the people in it and the animals, the trees, the flowers, all of it was created from love. Surely those demons must hate being so constantly reminded of God and His gracious kindness.
There was an "It's supernatural" segment I was watching today that included a man's descent into hell, and although the description of people were being tortured there, the demons didn't seem out of place or distraught at all. {I just noticed that when I was writing this response.)
Thanks for your kind words too Kit. I had debated for awhile if I would answer, as it seems most of the Christians have departed GS for awhile now - or as a poster today said in the Open forum - doctrinal has "lost its fire." There are reasons too for that I believe.
But, I love discussing the Bible.
I think, most people in the western world, when it comes to the topic of "hell" immediately think of this place of horrid torture. These thoughts and visions all basically go back to one man - Dante - and his book: Dante's Inferno written in the 1400s I believe. I have read his book, The Inferno, and he truly did have an amazing imagination of what hell would be like. But, it was just his imagination - and yet, people think its true. Dante's vision and tortures people experienced in the differing "circles" of hell, is the dominant theme of "hell" today in most people's minds.
Even the word "hell" is something that came along later. The Bible talks about the grave, sheol, the pit, etc.
I think, at times, God give people glimpses of heaven - and hell. We hear of many Near Death Experiences (NDEs) - so many that its a common thing now - people almost die, have a vision, go to another place, dimension, experience peace, love, etc. But what you rarely hear about, and this does happen quite frequently, are the people who have NDEs but go to the wrong place - LOL! Whoa! Surprise!! One doctor talked about a patient who was having a heart attack. The man would go under, they'd bring him back and he would beg him not to let him go back there - save me. Each time he was brought back, the man begged. The man did live and became a devout Christian.
There's a link I will find for you, that I ran across a few years ago. It was a Pastor Shaw, who in the late 1800s, had people send him "deathbed" stories because he wanted to find out if there is a difference between believers and unbelievers when they died. This was when people died at home surrounded by friends and family on their "deathbed" at home, not like today. Well, the Christian accounts, after a while were pretty much the same, but - it was amazing, because when the ones who did not believe were on their deathbed, people would say, well, its not too late - you can still be saved. Every single one of them said, yes, it is - it is too late! and they then told the time and place where they knew they had to make a decision - the Holy Spirit tugging on their heart - and when they had rejected him. Every single one, looking back, knew exactly when they had to make that choice. It was fascinating. Every single one knew the decision they had made, and they all took full responsibility for their choice. One young woman said she just ignored it until the call finally went away after a few weeks. Others were angry because their friends said, don't worry, you can convert on your deathbed, and they realized - it was too late, they couldn't believe. There were about 100 accounts and the stories were fascinating.
I guess, to me, the interesting part after reading these accounts, was that there seems to be a threshhold - a line - and when they crossed it - there was no turning back. When Christ knocks on our hearts - some open the door, some close it. There literally comes a time, when God gives a person up (Romans) to do what they really want to do, without God's interference. The threshhold was crossed, and they were glad of it - glad to be free from that annoying whisper of the Holy Spirit.
I really do believe that Christ knocks so many times, but there comes a point, where the Holy Spirit departs and there will not be another chance. The mind has been made up. Nothing will change it. He cannot overide one's free will.
I asked the hospice lady, the same question when my father was dying a few years ago - she counseled dying people in matters of faith. I asked her the same question - did she see a difference? Without hesitation, she said, "oh yes." We talked for awhile. But, no matter if one believes or does not - we do not know, we cannot judge - only God knows the heart of an individual.
I had a dear next-door-neighbor friend for 15 years who adamantly would not discuss "religion" but he was a good-acting man. And a couple of weeks before he was going to die he told me how he had gone to confirmation classes with his friend when he was a child and been confirmed in Catholic faith, and then once when I visited him in the hospital he let me pray for him. 15 years it took, but indeed he did make it into heaven. It was so awesome to see the Lord get his heart and life. I look forward to seeing him in heaven.
some have theorized that "black holes" in outer space are portals to hell since they are burned out suns/stars that suck up energy and matter into it which still has heat that would burn and crush your flesh if you tried to enter it.
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JumpinJive
So much for God being forgiving and a God of love...
-JJ
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Sunesis
Kit, I have read several wonderful books on this topic. I think the best one was "The Land Unknown: Hell's Dominion" (available on Amazon) by a man who had been born again as a child but grew up absolutely hating and mocking Christians. There was another book, I forget the title. Also, John Bunyan who wrote Pilgrim's Progress had a vision of Hell - this was back in the 1600s I believe. I later read an account by a nun in the 19th century, but it was Bunyan's vision plagerized (no internet back then - she didn't think she'd get caught).
The thing I found interesting about these separate, totally unrelated visions, was that they all seemed to mesh. Centuries apart, they all saw basically the same thing. I do believe in these times, God does give dreams and visions to people for those who wish to learn.
I also know, people have jumped on the bandwagon. Some are true, some are imagination. But I do think God is trying to tell people, life and creation is not always going to go on as it is.
Once I realized the whole Bible was a book of prophecy, some things things fell into place for me. What is the theme? There are basically three themes.
1. Mankind is a fallen race that God wishes to restore and to dwell with them eternally;
2. In order to do this, he will send a redeemer (who is the subject of the prophecy); and
3. The Messiah's message is a "New Creation" coming. Literally a new Heaven and New earth.
The laws of physics and things as we know it will not apply. It will be a new creation - one we cannot imagine.
The Redeemer, the subject of the prophecy has one message: There is a Kingdom coming. Believe in me and enter in and live eternally.
That's it. Its simple. That was Christ's message.
I believe the new coming creation involves new dimensions.
We read in Rev., that after all rebellion and sin is finally put down and the new Heaven and Earth are made, that several things "survive" so to speak, and enter into the new creation: Angels; those who believed the Messiah who is the Christ, and the "Lake of Fire."
The Lake of Fire and its inhabitants is a place, in another dimension which is "outside" the City (Rev. 22:15) and new creation wherein dwells righteousness.
JJ, I do not believe it is unloving. I think people, who hate God, who want nothing to do with him, who have rejected his offer of eternal life - there are people who have demonstrated their preference for anything other than eternal fellowship with God and with all who love light. For them, the experience of forced fellowship with God for an eternity would be less tolerable than hell.
These individuals do not want to be in God's presence and would find heaven and his presence repugnant. Thus, to be fair, God cannot morally command them to believe and dwell with him. It would be "unfair." It would be a gross violation of your free will.
I believe the Lake of Fire (whatever that means - I think it symbolizes something we can't imagine) is a place where people and demons get what they want above all else: Freedom. Yes Freedom.
In that dimension, they get freedom from the Will and Rule of God and freedom from the restraints of conscience and the voice of the Holy Spirit. God yields to the desires of his committed "rebels" by withdrawing forever the influence of His Spirit from their beings.
An individual who knowingly refused to worship God in this life will never change his mind. The price for entrance into the new creation - worship of God - is a price too high to pay.
As Hebrews says: "No sacrifice for sins is left" for those who knowingly discard God's sacred gift.
As far as "torment" goes - the greek word can also mean an immobilization, a distraction, a restraint. I.e., you're thrown in prison. You're a nice guy. There are 8 men who would love to do things to you. At this point, for your safety, the most "loving" thing the guards could do is restrain them, maybe a leg iron so you can sleep at night instead of having to stay awake all night.
God says, at the great white throne judgment men will be judged by their works. Many are violent people, many are just average Joes who wanted nothing to do with God.
God, in his love and mercy has put just enough "torment" or distraction or restraints to keep in check the horrors that could happen in a place where there is no God, love, holy spirit or conscience.
I think the Comforter that was sent into the world, God's Spirit today, blunts the impact of sin and evil in this world (we can't see the spiritual things going on in the dimension of the heavenly), and thus, we tend underestimate evil and its horror and minimize what Christ took on himself on the cross.
But, each one of us does get to choose where we would like to spend eternity. The choice is ours.
Those who "opt out" of redemption and eternity with God and Christ may not like being restrained in another dimension - but they will always be eternally proud of their rebellion against God - their minds will never change.
So, I think its fair.
My question would be: Why, would someone who dislikes God and cannot worship him - even want to spend eternity with him?
It would be like forcing a committed vegetarian to eat meat - they would be repulsed.
Interesting topic Kit.
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Kit Sober
Dear Sunesis,
Thanks. Your words reflect my sentiments, on the matter. I must read those books you mentioned,thanks. I have long felt that the justice of God would give people what they longed for -- Separation from God and His ways for those that want that, and for the Lord to be close as our breath for those who yearn for that.
Truly the rain on the just and the unjust, the protection in society from wanton evil by social constrains as well as laws and godly placed policemen, social workers, ministers, businesses that give people ways of making a living and contributing to society -- so many people who work to make the world a more godly place and to help others -- as such a place has been Greasespot Cafe --These are all reminders that God loves the world and the people in it and the animals, the trees, the flowers, all of it was created from love. Surely those demons must hate being so constantly reminded of God and His gracious kindness.
There was an "It's supernatural" segment I was watching today that included a man's descent into hell, and although the description of people were being tortured there, the demons didn't seem out of place or distraught at all. {I just noticed that when I was writing this response.)
Thanks, again, for your words.
Kit
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Sunesis
Thanks for your kind words too Kit. I had debated for awhile if I would answer, as it seems most of the Christians have departed GS for awhile now - or as a poster today said in the Open forum - doctrinal has "lost its fire." There are reasons too for that I believe.
But, I love discussing the Bible.
I think, most people in the western world, when it comes to the topic of "hell" immediately think of this place of horrid torture. These thoughts and visions all basically go back to one man - Dante - and his book: Dante's Inferno written in the 1400s I believe. I have read his book, The Inferno, and he truly did have an amazing imagination of what hell would be like. But, it was just his imagination - and yet, people think its true. Dante's vision and tortures people experienced in the differing "circles" of hell, is the dominant theme of "hell" today in most people's minds.
Even the word "hell" is something that came along later. The Bible talks about the grave, sheol, the pit, etc.
I think, at times, God give people glimpses of heaven - and hell. We hear of many Near Death Experiences (NDEs) - so many that its a common thing now - people almost die, have a vision, go to another place, dimension, experience peace, love, etc. But what you rarely hear about, and this does happen quite frequently, are the people who have NDEs but go to the wrong place - LOL! Whoa! Surprise!! One doctor talked about a patient who was having a heart attack. The man would go under, they'd bring him back and he would beg him not to let him go back there - save me. Each time he was brought back, the man begged. The man did live and became a devout Christian.
There's a link I will find for you, that I ran across a few years ago. It was a Pastor Shaw, who in the late 1800s, had people send him "deathbed" stories because he wanted to find out if there is a difference between believers and unbelievers when they died. This was when people died at home surrounded by friends and family on their "deathbed" at home, not like today. Well, the Christian accounts, after a while were pretty much the same, but - it was amazing, because when the ones who did not believe were on their deathbed, people would say, well, its not too late - you can still be saved. Every single one of them said, yes, it is - it is too late! and they then told the time and place where they knew they had to make a decision - the Holy Spirit tugging on their heart - and when they had rejected him. Every single one, looking back, knew exactly when they had to make that choice. It was fascinating. Every single one knew the decision they had made, and they all took full responsibility for their choice. One young woman said she just ignored it until the call finally went away after a few weeks. Others were angry because their friends said, don't worry, you can convert on your deathbed, and they realized - it was too late, they couldn't believe. There were about 100 accounts and the stories were fascinating.
I guess, to me, the interesting part after reading these accounts, was that there seems to be a threshhold - a line - and when they crossed it - there was no turning back. When Christ knocks on our hearts - some open the door, some close it. There literally comes a time, when God gives a person up (Romans) to do what they really want to do, without God's interference. The threshhold was crossed, and they were glad of it - glad to be free from that annoying whisper of the Holy Spirit.
I really do believe that Christ knocks so many times, but there comes a point, where the Holy Spirit departs and there will not be another chance. The mind has been made up. Nothing will change it. He cannot overide one's free will.
I asked the hospice lady, the same question when my father was dying a few years ago - she counseled dying people in matters of faith. I asked her the same question - did she see a difference? Without hesitation, she said, "oh yes." We talked for awhile. But, no matter if one believes or does not - we do not know, we cannot judge - only God knows the heart of an individual.
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Kit Sober
I had a dear next-door-neighbor friend for 15 years who adamantly would not discuss "religion" but he was a good-acting man. And a couple of weeks before he was going to die he told me how he had gone to confirmation classes with his friend when he was a child and been confirmed in Catholic faith, and then once when I visited him in the hospital he let me pray for him. 15 years it took, but indeed he did make it into heaven. It was so awesome to see the Lord get his heart and life. I look forward to seeing him in heaven.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
some have theorized that "black holes" in outer space are portals to hell since they are burned out suns/stars that suck up energy and matter into it which still has heat that would burn and crush your flesh if you tried to enter it.
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