I've lurked GS on and off for years, but this is the first thread I've seen where VP is accused of child molestation, (brainfixed on page 2). Where did that come from? Dang.
here's how it went down for me about that bit of information:
Wierwille, on more than one occasion, in addressing small Corps groups,stated that he fondled his teenaged daughter, in a sexual manner, to teach her about sexuality. (I'm being purposefully vague about what he specifically described.) There are posters here, on Greasespot, who were personally present. I don't know if he actually did what he claimed. What I do know is that he made the claims.
i never knew this, but this sure does explain a whole lot! no wondering why there were groups of pedophiles that ran children's fellowships! and no wondering they did it without fear of anything being done about it! and no wondering why those of us who went to the authorities were hounded and hunted down and "prophesied" over about death to us and our children for being "unbelieving believers"! i never ever understood why supposedly ordained "ministers" could hear report after report of pedophilia running rampant and do nothing but call the children liars and "seed boys", but this information makes it perfectly clear now, and it explains why i heard the "let seeing eyes be blinded" prayer so much. even though i want to break down and weep, i also see more clearly how we were literally trapped and how any reports to the authorities got dropped, because our world was literally poisonous to anything and anybody that got even close, because now i am sure that all the adults were covering up for each other.
by the way, there's a really nice girl in my twig in that picture. i'm trying to remember her name. i see doug and pam and mrs. looks thrilled. rhoda and i worked together in word processing
like i said somewhere he did "share" about teaching arousel to his daughter
i can't even go on. i ran to the bathroom then but i actually stayed in the way
V.P., himself, confessed to small groups in the W.C. that he sexually fondled his adolescent daughter to "teach her about sexuality". (One such group was comprised of all women.) According to VP (You know he wasn't really a Dr., don't you?) Wierwille, this was supposedly a custom that was practiced by some aboriginal tribe in some remote area of the World. (So much for "The Bible is our only rule of faith and practice.") There are people who currently post here who were present at those meetings, which makes it first-hand testimony. As I've said before, we have no way of knowing if he was being truthful in making these confessions. What we do know for certain, though, is that he did, indeed, make these confessions.
Methinks that according to Roman law -- as it has been passed down via British and American Common Law and is still adhered-to in Courts of Law today -- if the current posters remain anonymous such evidence would be considered "alleged first-hand testimony." And it seems only fair that an allegation as egregious as child molestation ought to be backed up by more than that -- at least, it would have to be for me to accept it "for certain."
After all, even a historian writing about Hitler, if all he had were "alleged" testimony about that kind of thing, he would qualify the accusation.
Now don't get me wrong. While notwithstanding all the reports of varying levels of credibility, I don't think Wierwille was anything like a "Hitler," nevertheless in my book it has been established beyond doubt that he was a sex addict, and a sex and spiritual abuser.
And although I suspected as much to be true -- in large although not exclusive measure from what I read here at GS -- it wasn't "for certain" for me until I read Kahler's and Skedgell's books. Because in those pages a couple of woman were courageous enough to put their names on their reports of abuse at Vic's hands.
Now HOLD ON A SECOND. Before anyone starts flaming me, I don't think that there is ONE THING WRONG with people who have been abused making anonymous reports on anonymous venues such as GS. The women who were victims of Wierwille's sexual and spiritual abuse HAVE BEEN THROUGH HELL. And having been a member of Sex Addicts Anonymous for three months (which is a story in itself) as far as I'm concerned an anonymous venue such as GS, where victims feel comfortable telling their stories, speaks well for that venue.
At the same time, justice demands that I recognize that a public venue such as GS is going to attract false reports.
BTW FWIW, SAA is a great organization based on the Twelve Steps of AA. It's motto is "From Shame to Grace," and unlike some organizations I could name, it does a good job (not a perfect job) living up to its ideals.
As evidenced first-hand by me ("Workman" lol) at their meetings -- and I have been to many -- where abusers and the abused were able to sit in a room TOGETHER and tell their stories WITHOUT strangling each other (much much more than a minor miracle). And I'm talking about the kind of abusers who have sexually molested their own children in the same room with people who were victims of sex abuse from one or both of their parents as children.
Which is why, to anyone suffering from dysfunctional feelings/behaviors due to past or current experiences of abuse in that catagory, whether as perp or victim, I highly recommend the organization.
**********
Broken Arrow:"Ha cha-cha-cha-cha!"
**********
brainfixed re: "i never knew this, but this sure does explain a whole lot! no wondering why there were groups of pedophiles that ran children's fellowships! and no wondering they did it without fear of anything being done about it!"
I ran into a more than a couple of pedophiles and their enablers among the "rank and file believers" while running a Branch for TWI as a Corps grad (11th). Mostly in the couple-of-year "dead space" between HQ carrying out its purges among its employed, after the Geer assault, and the beginnings of the organization paying renewed attention to its "on the field works" where "volunteers" such as myself had authority (when I was "dismissed from Active Corps"). During which time I had a free hand to deal with it.
Which my hand, basically had a ball bat in it. This was before SAA, BTW; I'm more "mellow" now, lol.
My question to myself at the time -- still being clueless to the extent of the abuse in TWI -- was, "What attracts all these pervs to The Word?" It wasn't until later, again in SAA, that I discovered that ALL KINDS OF ABUSE are rampant throughout this WHOLE SCREWED-UP SOCIETY. So just on a statistical basis alone, some pervs were bound to be in my Branch.
**********
excathedra re: "workman so glad you posted!"
Thanks. I appreciate it.
Re: "like i said somewhere he did "share" about teaching arousel to his daughter"
Even talking about it by a MALE -- father or not -- is borderline abuse. For crying out loud it is in the Bible that, in the church, that kind of job (and it is an important job) belongs to the elders who are FEMALE (for obvious reasons to anyone whose conscience is not seared with a hot iron about sex). That would be Titus 2:4. (Yet another vindication of II Timothy 1:7, brought to you by 'Workman'.)
Hands-on it would have been unequivocal abuse. Not just morally and ethically, but LEGALLY. But the only one who can know for sure whether it was hands-on, and if not, whether it was abusive would be his daughter. And I imagine she ain't talkin'.
That said, that kind of "sharing" -- whether the incident itself was abusive to the daughter or not -- with any kind of public audience is of itself abusive. It is abuse against that audience. And it is indicative of a mind that is extremely out of whack about what is appropriate regarding sexual matters.
So if what you are saying is true, clearly at the very least, Vic was clueless of the potential effect such a "sharing" could have on potential/present abusers and victims alike. People who were, no-doubt on a statistical basis, in his audience.
Now, whether Vic got his ya-ya's off via his "sharing," or instead was actually deceived into thinking it was "profitable," it is impossible to know. He is dead.
Re: "i can't even go on. i ran to the bathroom then but i actually stayed in the way"
As for me, my forehead is flat, God bless our lil' ol' pea-pickin' hearts.
I should have grown up into an adult long before I did. Which it just so happens, requires a wee bit deeper and more profound growth and maturity than can be availed by acquiring skills at "Christian Etiquette," lol.
if i had had an ounce of sense back then, i would have called the authorities after i threw up
i don't know what i thought, having been sexually molested as a young girl myself
it was a women's night owl with him and included 9th and 11th corps girls
kris was in the 8th and karl in the 12th i believe so they probably didn't know about it
i know dot matrix was there. i don't know about other posters here from those corps -- some may have been at other campuses at the time. this was in emporia
he said something along the lines of teaching/showing his daughter certain "things" that would help her please her husband (and I think vice versa) and that they did this in ancient times or in tribes or something -- I don't mean to be vague -- I just don't have a great memory. he made it sound like a beautiful logical godly thing. similar to when he told me he could help heal me from past sexual abuse. (but i can definitely tell you making nipples hard was mentioned.)
whether he did it for real or just liked to imagine doing it, i cannot say.
it was and is very very disturbing. i must have been really messed up then. i do not remember talking to anyone about it at the time except dot. i wonder if he said the night was a lockbox like he did at other times to me. can't recall.
Workman, you have me quoted as saying, "Broken Arrow: "Ha cha-cha-cha-cha!".
I have been involved in a group similar to SAA for about 15 years, and my wife is a victim of childhood sexual abuse. Of all the things I could be quoted as saying somehow this blurb makes it into your post. A lot of my time is spent helping those who are trapped in sexual addiction themselves. I have personally struggled through some personal issues of which I will spare you. Perhaps I'm overreacting, but this quote taken completely out of context makes it look as if I'm deriving some sort of perverted sexual pleasure from all of this.
I just want clear the record here. That "Ha cha...." quote was a caption I put under a picture of Jimmy Durante I posted. I can't remember why I posted his picture but I do those sorts of things from time to time. I DO NOT, repeat, DO NOT think any of this is a joke, nor do I think it's funny. To the contrary it tears my heart out.
one reason i don't like to go on too much about him or anyone else is that i think that no one is good (but that doesn't sound right because i know so many good people)
but then i go insane when i think about anyone doing such things to my child
hope that makes sense
i think we can expose dark things without saying we ourselves are perfect
--
sorry i'm trying to post a song that shows you some of me but it's not working i'll try again
That Mrs W in the front row, in the striped coat? The only one not smiling? Probably wondering which of the babes he's planning to "bless" later that day. Or night.
That Mrs W in the front row, in the striped coat? The only one not smiling? Probably wondering which of the babes he's planning to "bless" later that day. Or night.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Well, the last time I checked, I was a woman who joined the Navy!! I love this poster!! Anyhow, to add my few pennies, I think VBW was a sick man!! A few years ago, a woman posted here at the Cafe
waysider
I think the realization they were able to keep so much hidden speaks volumes about just how corrupt and deceptive the whole operation was.
chockfull
"Was vpw a good man?" for God to decide - I don't own the scales of Justice. but you only need to insert one little adjective into that statement to make it one that resounds with a universa
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Ham
I have no idea..
it was a snapshot in time..
The Squirrel.. has looked.
really.. look at the picture. The farther you get away from herr vicster. Besides the look of da wife stabbing his heart..
the more clueless people in the picture becoming..
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Ham
I only see one in the picture, becoming committed, motivated..
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brainfixed
here's how it went down for me about that bit of information:
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excathedra
workman so glad you posted !
by the way, there's a really nice girl in my twig in that picture. i'm trying to remember her name. i see doug and pam and mrs. looks thrilled. rhoda and i worked together in word processing
like i said somewhere he did "share" about teaching arousel to his daughter
i can't even go on. i ran to the bathroom then but i actually stayed in the way
my bad my f'd upness
he's ugly does he have a wort ?
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Workman
Methinks that according to Roman law -- as it has been passed down via British and American Common Law and is still adhered-to in Courts of Law today -- if the current posters remain anonymous such evidence would be considered "alleged first-hand testimony." And it seems only fair that an allegation as egregious as child molestation ought to be backed up by more than that -- at least, it would have to be for me to accept it "for certain."
After all, even a historian writing about Hitler, if all he had were "alleged" testimony about that kind of thing, he would qualify the accusation.
Now don't get me wrong. While notwithstanding all the reports of varying levels of credibility, I don't think Wierwille was anything like a "Hitler," nevertheless in my book it has been established beyond doubt that he was a sex addict, and a sex and spiritual abuser.
And although I suspected as much to be true -- in large although not exclusive measure from what I read here at GS -- it wasn't "for certain" for me until I read Kahler's and Skedgell's books. Because in those pages a couple of woman were courageous enough to put their names on their reports of abuse at Vic's hands.
Now HOLD ON A SECOND. Before anyone starts flaming me, I don't think that there is ONE THING WRONG with people who have been abused making anonymous reports on anonymous venues such as GS. The women who were victims of Wierwille's sexual and spiritual abuse HAVE BEEN THROUGH HELL. And having been a member of Sex Addicts Anonymous for three months (which is a story in itself) as far as I'm concerned an anonymous venue such as GS, where victims feel comfortable telling their stories, speaks well for that venue.
At the same time, justice demands that I recognize that a public venue such as GS is going to attract false reports.
BTW FWIW, SAA is a great organization based on the Twelve Steps of AA. It's motto is "From Shame to Grace," and unlike some organizations I could name, it does a good job (not a perfect job) living up to its ideals.
As evidenced first-hand by me ("Workman" lol) at their meetings -- and I have been to many -- where abusers and the abused were able to sit in a room TOGETHER and tell their stories WITHOUT strangling each other (much much more than a minor miracle). And I'm talking about the kind of abusers who have sexually molested their own children in the same room with people who were victims of sex abuse from one or both of their parents as children.
Which is why, to anyone suffering from dysfunctional feelings/behaviors due to past or current experiences of abuse in that catagory, whether as perp or victim, I highly recommend the organization.
**********
Broken Arrow: "Ha cha-cha-cha-cha!"
**********
brainfixed re: "i never knew this, but this sure does explain a whole lot! no wondering why there were groups of pedophiles that ran children's fellowships! and no wondering they did it without fear of anything being done about it!"
I ran into a more than a couple of pedophiles and their enablers among the "rank and file believers" while running a Branch for TWI as a Corps grad (11th). Mostly in the couple-of-year "dead space" between HQ carrying out its purges among its employed, after the Geer assault, and the beginnings of the organization paying renewed attention to its "on the field works" where "volunteers" such as myself had authority (when I was "dismissed from Active Corps"). During which time I had a free hand to deal with it.
Which my hand, basically had a ball bat in it. This was before SAA, BTW; I'm more "mellow" now, lol.
My question to myself at the time -- still being clueless to the extent of the abuse in TWI -- was, "What attracts all these pervs to The Word?" It wasn't until later, again in SAA, that I discovered that ALL KINDS OF ABUSE are rampant throughout this WHOLE SCREWED-UP SOCIETY. So just on a statistical basis alone, some pervs were bound to be in my Branch.
**********
excathedra re: "workman so glad you posted!"
Thanks. I appreciate it.
Re: "like i said somewhere he did "share" about teaching arousel to his daughter"
Even talking about it by a MALE -- father or not -- is borderline abuse. For crying out loud it is in the Bible that, in the church, that kind of job (and it is an important job) belongs to the elders who are FEMALE (for obvious reasons to anyone whose conscience is not seared with a hot iron about sex). That would be Titus 2:4. (Yet another vindication of II Timothy 1:7, brought to you by 'Workman'.)
Hands-on it would have been unequivocal abuse. Not just morally and ethically, but LEGALLY. But the only one who can know for sure whether it was hands-on, and if not, whether it was abusive would be his daughter. And I imagine she ain't talkin'.
That said, that kind of "sharing" -- whether the incident itself was abusive to the daughter or not -- with any kind of public audience is of itself abusive. It is abuse against that audience. And it is indicative of a mind that is extremely out of whack about what is appropriate regarding sexual matters.
So if what you are saying is true, clearly at the very least, Vic was clueless of the potential effect such a "sharing" could have on potential/present abusers and victims alike. People who were, no-doubt on a statistical basis, in his audience.
Now, whether Vic got his ya-ya's off via his "sharing," or instead was actually deceived into thinking it was "profitable," it is impossible to know. He is dead.
Re: "i can't even go on. i ran to the bathroom then but i actually stayed in the way"
As for me, my forehead is flat, God bless our lil' ol' pea-pickin' hearts.
I should have grown up into an adult long before I did. Which it just so happens, requires a wee bit deeper and more profound growth and maturity than can be availed by acquiring skills at "Christian Etiquette," lol.
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excathedra
if i had had an ounce of sense back then, i would have called the authorities after i threw up
i don't know what i thought, having been sexually molested as a young girl myself
it was a women's night owl with him and included 9th and 11th corps girls
kris was in the 8th and karl in the 12th i believe so they probably didn't know about it
i know dot matrix was there. i don't know about other posters here from those corps -- some may have been at other campuses at the time. this was in emporia
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excathedra
he said something along the lines of teaching/showing his daughter certain "things" that would help her please her husband (and I think vice versa) and that they did this in ancient times or in tribes or something -- I don't mean to be vague -- I just don't have a great memory. he made it sound like a beautiful logical godly thing. similar to when he told me he could help heal me from past sexual abuse. (but i can definitely tell you making nipples hard was mentioned.)
whether he did it for real or just liked to imagine doing it, i cannot say.
it was and is very very disturbing. i must have been really messed up then. i do not remember talking to anyone about it at the time except dot. i wonder if he said the night was a lockbox like he did at other times to me. can't recall.
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waysider
You are one brave lady, excie.
mwahhh!
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Broken Arrow
Workman, you have me quoted as saying, "Broken Arrow: "Ha cha-cha-cha-cha!".
I have been involved in a group similar to SAA for about 15 years, and my wife is a victim of childhood sexual abuse. Of all the things I could be quoted as saying somehow this blurb makes it into your post. A lot of my time is spent helping those who are trapped in sexual addiction themselves. I have personally struggled through some personal issues of which I will spare you. Perhaps I'm overreacting, but this quote taken completely out of context makes it look as if I'm deriving some sort of perverted sexual pleasure from all of this.
I just want clear the record here. That "Ha cha...." quote was a caption I put under a picture of Jimmy Durante I posted. I can't remember why I posted his picture but I do those sorts of things from time to time. I DO NOT, repeat, DO NOT think any of this is a joke, nor do I think it's funny. To the contrary it tears my heart out.
BTW, I rather appreciated the rest of your post.
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waysider
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Ham
this was a moron in a trench coat..
he shows up at *where* it is *happening*..
no clue.
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waysider
"Moron in a Trench Coat"
That would make a good song title. We could get Men Without Pants to record it.
At least there would be no need to tell them to "Keep it in Your Pants".
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Bolshevik
The answer to this thread is "no"
14 pages . . .
None is good but God . . bible beaters . . .
For the rest it's simple enough . . .
What an annoying dead Fu&@
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waysider
Yes, it makes you wonder why it took more than one word to answer the question.
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excathedra
i'm not brave waysider but thanks -- i was there for godssake
i mean, i have my own personal disgusting time with him, but this was a regular meeting -- i mean a public meeting
oh my
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLse7g_Nfuo
--
--
--
one reason i don't like to go on too much about him or anyone else is that i think that no one is good (but that doesn't sound right because i know so many good people)
but then i go insane when i think about anyone doing such things to my child
hope that makes sense
i think we can expose dark things without saying we ourselves are perfect
--
sorry i'm trying to post a song that shows you some of me but it's not working i'll try again
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Ham
Hah!
maybe its just principle..
I can't be the .... out of a moron anymore....
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excathedra
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQNuC_pme-Q?fs=1&hl=en_US&rel=0"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQNuC_pme-Q?fs=1&hl=en_US&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQNuC_pme-Q?fs=1&hl=en_US&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
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Ham
He/she/it/whatever.. they think they are supposed to be..
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Bolshevik
*bump*
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MRAP
Change your name to George and I may borrow you a cigar.
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MRAP
Thanks alot for posting a pic of the ole SOB. Seeing a pic of him engenders a feeling of intense anger.
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DontWorryBeHappy
It was Jimmy Durante who said goodnight to mrs. Calabash.
George (Burns??) said goodnight to Gracie.
Can't you get anything right?.......LOL.
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Twinky
That Mrs W in the front row, in the striped coat? The only one not smiling? Probably wondering which of the babes he's planning to "bless" later that day. Or night.
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Rocky
That's her alright.
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