Which, all things considered, is ANOTHER evil thing vpw did. If vpw hadn't ruthlessly condemned the fields
of people who could have helped his victims, more would have gotten help sooner, and fewer would have committed
suicide as a direct or indirect result of their exposure to vpw. Not like he cared- what were a few more
victims to him? He just made sure to label them and say it was their own weakness and "devil spirits"
that killed them, then he went back to making more victims.
I've posted this before, but to illustrate this point...
In 1980, wierwille was teaching the inresidence corps and staff corps grads in the OSC Building. One of the main focal points of the corps program was the weekly corps meeting, commonly referred to as 'Corps Night.' Generally, these meetings had about one hour and fifteen to thirty minutes of preliminary structure and announcements before the main teacher took the stage. Three hour corps meetings were common.
On this night, a 6th corps grad was seated in the third row. For years, he had wanted to work on staff and be near the 'heart of the ministry' and would arrive early at corps meetings to get the closest seat. So, after all the preliminary stuff and martindale rants.....wierwille finally was seated at the teacher's desk.
About 20 minutes into wierwille's teaching those literal translations according to usage in Romans.....this 6th corps grad started nodding off. I was seated about seven rows behind him stage left and watched it unfold. Others next to him tried to shake him and keep him awake, but after about 10 minutes.....it happened! Wierwille saw him nodding off and went ballistic!
With fiery eyes and a vehemence that I'd never seen in wierwille.....he ripped into the corps grad to shred him. Hundreds of corps witnessed this character assassination. Wierwille kept attacking his commitment, his corps status, his life, he was POSSESSED...... the verbal onslaught continued until martindale stepped in to tag-team this assault. Wierwille fumed and stepped back stage.
Now, martindale went after him. "How dare he nod off when 'the man of God' is teaching the greatness of this word of God!" yelled martindale. Ranting and ranting, the onslaught continued......and no one came to his defense. Not one. Nor did I.....
Finally, after some 20 minutes or so.....wierwille came back on stage and sorta finished his teaching. Even to this day, nearly 31 years later.....I can vividly see wierwille's rage!!
The next day, the corps grad was fired and sent packing. A few weeks passed and he was diagnosed with severe blood sugar complications. With medication and rigid diet, he received the medical attention that he so badly needed.
All of this begs the question.......HOW SPIRITUAL WAS WIERWILLE and/or MARTINDALE?
All these things just point out in glaring clarity that VP and The Way were no Chrisitan ministry and were not following in the footsteps of Christs Example.
Christ healed people. He did not label them and send them packing after yelling at them and denigrating them. He spent time with the sinners bringing them healing and support. Not looking only for those who were financially and emotionally stable.
The question at the beggining of this thread was, Was VP a good man.
I Say no.
For all the reasons above.
How many of you went to the few meetings off HQ campus that VP was at hoping for him to heal you or someone you knew... I never saw him heal anyone... infact the one time a friend had an epileptic fit during a meeting Craig was at, Craig called him possesed and told every one not to touch him... he left The way immediately after that meeting. He was a good Christian Man with a scar on his brain tissue which caused his seizure not a possesed person... It was one of the times and incidents that started me on the road to walking away from TWI... It would still be many more before I got it.
But I certainly get it now.
Councilors and psychologists are there to help you recognize what happened to you during traumatic situations... they help you with coping with the trauma and give you alternate ways to deal with situations that come up in your life or that are bothering you. THey give you alternative actions to use instead of the actions you have been doing.
I see so clearly now how very inadequate what TWI did was, how counter productive.
VP was a very bad Man.. He was not a man of GOD. He was an alcoholic, a lier, a cheat, a rapist, a swindler, a thief... he ran a long con, and we all fell for it. He was a wolf in sheeps clothing and he stole lambs from God's flock. THe Bible that he taught was horribly flawed and he purposefully taught the errors he taught to run his con... was there truth mixed in the lies... well there would have had to have been in order for the long con to work. He was everything he accused all the churches of being and then some. I find it sad that people have continued teaching his drivel and I would question their truthfulness and integrity and I suggest in light of recognizing VP's Long Con--- that they are all running their own long con.
I find it sad that people have continued teaching his drivel and I would question their truthfulness and integrity and I suggest in light of recognizing VP's Long Con--- that they are all running their own long con.
i just read your words to a friend of mine and after this last line he said "ya think?", and yes i do think nowadays after many years of not thinking but just living in a "bubble" trying to sort it all out all by myself, when my "bubble" broke and i finally saw the world and all that is in it then i knew i had to get checked out. if i hadn't gone and got the help i needed (i was "in-patient" for a total of 6 months and "out-patient" for a total of 2 1/2 years) i'd be like a rabid animal just running scared all the time and "biting" anybody that threatened my world. the way international's "word" made me so far worse than i would have been otherwise and it took "the world" to undo the damage. i'm very thankful "the world" was still there for me.
In 1980, wierwille was teaching the inresidence corps and staff corps grads in the OSC Building. ...About 20 minutes into wierwille's teaching those literal translations according to usage in Romans.....this 6th corps grad started nodding off. I was seated about seven rows behind him stage left and watched it unfold. Others next to him tried to shake him and keep him awake, but after about 10 minutes.....it happened! Wierwille saw him nodding off and went ballistic!
With fiery eyes and a vehemence that I'd never seen in wierwille.....he ripped into the corps grad to shred him. Hundreds of corps witnessed this character assassination. Wierwille kept attacking his commitment, his corps status, his life, he was POSSESSED...... the verbal onslaught continued until martindale stepped in to tag-team this assault. Wierwille fumed and stepped back stage.
Now, martindale went after him. "How dare he nod off when 'the man of God' is teaching the greatness of this word of God!" yelled martindale. Ranting and ranting, the onslaught continued......and no one came to his defense. Not one. Nor did I.....
Finally, after some 20 minutes or so.....wierwille came back on stage and sorta finished his teaching. Even to this day, nearly 31 years later.....I can vividly see wierwille's rage!!
The next day, the corps grad was fired and sent packing. A few weeks passed and he was diagnosed with severe blood sugar complications. With medication and rigid diet, he received the medical attention that he so badly needed.
All of this begs the question.......HOW SPIRITUAL WAS WIERWILLE and/or MARTINDALE?
.. infact the one time a friend had an epileptic fit during a meeting Craig was at, Craig called him possesed and told every one not to touch him... he left The way immediately after that meeting. He was a good Christian Man with a scar on his brain tissue which caused his seizure not a possesed person...
Acts 20:7-12 (NIV)
Eutychus Raised From the Dead at Troas
7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.
8 There were many lamps in the upstairs room where we were meeting.
9 Seated in a window was a young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep as Paul talked on and on. When he was sound asleep, he fell to the ground from the third story and was picked up dead.
10 Paul went down, threw himself on the young man and put his arms around him. "Don't be alarmed," he said. "He's alive!"
11 Then he went upstairs again and broke bread and ate. After talking until daylight, he left.
12 The people took the young man home alive and were greatly comforted.
So, what drives people to defend VPW, even exalt him?
I can understand this sort of thing from people who are unaware of what happened. But, what about people who are aware of the sort of monster that was actually hiding behind the mask? What drives them to deny the truth?
So, what drives people to defend VPW, even exalt him?
I can understand this sort of thing from people who are unaware of what happened. But, what about people who are aware of the sort of monster that was actually hiding behind the mask? What drives them to deny the truth?
waysider.....I've pondered that question many times.
Could it be that someone striving for self-importance or 'above the rest'.....clings to the past attachment of experiencing a unique point in time, a person, or a movement that defines them? The world is filled with people who are obsessed with mysteries, ufo's, cults, occults, dictators, celebrities, rappers........you name it, its there.
Besides, when wierwille walked the earth.......I WAS THERE.
quote: I have no use whatsoever for psychotherapy, but that doesn't mean it hasn't helped anyone.
I've been to mental health professionals 3 times (3 periods of time). In 1971 my mom thought I was crazy cause I smoked pot and dropped acid. In 1975 the state of MI required me to get counselling after I was arrested for marijuana the 2nd time. I used the same counsellor both times. In 1976 I myself thought I needed it. This third time the guy for sure was a psychotherapist. I'm not sure about the other guy. The last guy was into something called rational emotive therapy. Gave me a book. That sounds like another oxymoron, just like "reasonable spiritual suspicion". Not one of those guys helped me. I can't even remember anything they ever said to me.
I quit going to the last guy after 3 or 4 sessions. He voiced his objection. Later that year I got in the word. Whew!
Quote: It's shocking how all the people who denigrate Psychiatry don't even know the main difference between
Psychiatry and Psychology.
The main difference, which you didn't even state, is that in order to be a psychiatrist, one has to already have a medical doctor's degree; this enables them to prescribe drugs. A psychologist basically talks to you. I learned that in intro to psychology at a community college.
As I said, I admit that psychology/psychiatry has helped some people, but it pales next to the word of God. I knew 2 believers who died because of medication prescribed to them for "depression". One of them just kept getting more and more meds to take; died at 42; body shut down. The other one was in his mid 50s; mixed beer with the meds; died in a recliner.
Jesus had to walk on water because there were no jet skis he could rent. I suppose it is possible that Jesus had to directly heal some of those people because of chemical imbalances because there was no medication for it at the time. What about the guy crying and cutting himself in the tombs? What would a psychologist recommend today for a guy like that? PFAL? Christianity? Didn't think so.
One concern I have is that because of the clout the industry has in our culture, they could say that Jesus never had a psych evaluation done on him. How do we know that he wasn't a paranoid schizophrenic? We'd better outlaw all copies of the bible from now on. Can't happen here?
I've read a few more chapters of Billy Graham's book. I didn't say he was evil. He is Christian. It's very easy to tell this by his writings. The world calls him an evangelist, but he functions more as a prophet, I think. VPs definitions of the gift ministries have not been often disputed here on GSC that I recall. An evangelist is one who speaks for God to those outside the pail, so to speak; one who wins the lost. A prophet is one who speaks for God to God's people, either by foretelling or by forth telling. Some of Jeremiah's writings are addressed to nations other than Israel. Although he was never called an evangelist, it's clear that both men spoke to God's people and to others. BG is always calling people back to God, back to the word of God. He has much reproof for Christians in this book, even ministers.
I heard VP diss BG twice live. Once in Apr '78 he said BG didn't stick up for Anita Bryant; just let her get thrown to the wolves when she was taking heat for her homo stand. Then in '82 during lunch at Living Victoriously he said BG made an a$$ of himself in Russia and made the Russian leaders just want to continue persecuting Christians. That doesn't even include the scathing remarks he made about him in the SNS teaching called 'The way of life and death' from March '76. I know an 11th corps grad who told me he was an usher at a BG crucade before he was in twi. Said one night BG all but said he SIT'd and it was a good thing. Next night he took it all back. You just don't get that kind of money behind your ministry without SOMEONE (a person) having the option of giving you marching orders if they feel like it. VP had the guts to go it alone. I respect that.
We were NOT brainwashed; we believed something that made logical sense to us. Remember, Jesus was slandered by those Jews. That had a lot to do with his crucifiction even being possible. Paul was slandered; Martin Luther was slandered. VPs evil doesn't negate the word of God.
What are you all going to do if VPs "judgement" isn't as ugly as you think it should be? Demand that God let you die the 2nd death with the unbelievers?
We were NOT brainwashed; we believed something that made logical sense to us. Remember, Jesus was slandered by those Jews. That had a lot to do with his crucifiction even being possible. Paul was slandered; Martin Luther was slandered. VPs evil doesn't negate the word of God.
you and your "we" can only apply to you yourself because you don't know at all why or what or how come anybody else "believed" the way international hogwash. over and over again in the pages here at greasespot cafe are people writing about how they had that "little feeling" about something they couldn't quite put their finger on so they questioned "leadership", and how did that go for them? yah, they were degraded and mocked and ridiculed and accused of everything from having a "devil spirt" to being gay to being "seed boys" and much of the written testimony here on these pages is that if a person kept asking questions then "leadership" called in their spouses or children or parents or bosses or whoever else was in the questioning person's life at the time and slandered that person until people got fired or found themselves having to choose between that "little feeling" and their loved ones. and all of this after lengthy periods of endoctrination to self doubt. and what about the kids that had no choice about any of it and were raised without knowing much else in this world?
What are you all going to do if VPs "judgement" isn't as ugly as you think it should be? Demand that God let you die the 2nd death with the unbelievers?
it is obvious that you don't even believe most of what the way international taught you or you wouldn't ask this question because the way international taught that "believers" in the way international would have "perfectly renewed mind" when they got up after that long sleep in the dirt, so what do you think anybody with "perfectly renewed mind" would think? oh yah i keep forgetting that you think that people that don't think like you now won't think like you then because we have already lost our "perfectly renewed mind" because our seed was corruptible and we lost it when we spit out the teachings of the way international, but since you still worship that "word" according to that "mog" then your seed is still "incorruptible" and the rest of us are going to get our "faces melted at the bema", and you're probably going to be one of them doing the "face melting". but wait a minute, your question says "demand that god let you die the 2nd death with the unbelievers?" so maybe you think some of us are going to get up with "perfectly renewed mind". i just can't keep up with your logic here because it's so much like being on that wheel people put in hamster cages, except that it spirals instead of just going around and around.
i just can't keep up with your logic here because it's so much like being on that wheel people put in hamster cages, except that it spirals instead of just going around and around.
Indeed. It spirals downward until, finally, a loud Whoooooshing sound is heard
. . . . . . God wants you to feel good about yourself.
What does this even mean? Where are you getting this? I am not saying you are wrong.....but, how do you even glean this from the scriptures? You are, in fact, declaring what God wants.....I am assuming when one speaks so blatantly for God, they have some depth of understanding concerning the scriptures.
Doesn't scripture tell us to repent and to be changed....to place our faith in Him. . . . to become a new creature in Christ? In my bible, it tells me that is where we feel good.....in Him. We get our joy in knowing Him.....we get our peace from trusting Him....we do good works He has ordained for us......and we are told.... Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. (Much like cman said).
To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
It is just not about "self" as Christians...it is all about Jesus. We feel good about Him.
I know you assume that people here are all born-again, but some people here reject Christ. Many are just unsure what they believe anymore, but know they don't believe the gospel they heard in PFAL. (I think that is a very good thing btw). So, how can you declare them as saved? Is Jesus death and resurrection that cheapened in your view? Is God so inefficient?
When I worship God....that Holy presence is overwhelming...I don't say "Look at me I feel good about myself" I am awestruck with wonder at Him, His holiness, that indescribable good, that love. I only have praise or thanks. I am incapable of anything else.
I do believe God wants us to feel good about Him.....and that comes from knowing Him and that He is.....it has little to do with me. I don't like the way I look standing before Him....which is why I need a savior.
Geisha: How can we feel good about God or anything if we don't feel good about ourselves? God didn't call us out as indentured servants; He called us as sons and daughters. You can't sell joy and peace to anyone else if you aren't convinced you've got it yourself. I felt overwhelmed sometimes when I did LSD. Feelings come and go. Incorruptible seed is God's doing. It's not a scam.
Geisha: How can we feel good about God or anything if we don't feel good about ourselves? God didn't call us out as indentured servants; He called us as sons and daughters. You can't sell joy and peace to anyone else if you aren't convinced you've got it yourself. I felt overwhelmed sometimes when I did LSD. Feelings come and go. Incorruptible seed is God's doing. It's not a scam.
What you are saying is opposed to what the scriptures say. We don't feel good about ourselves first and then God.....that goodness comes from God. And..... yes..... we are servants.
I am not trying to "sell" anyone anything.
I simply said joy and peace come from God....from knowing Him. That is where the glory goes....to God. Not us.
There is a huge difference between Dale Carnegie and the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I remember singing the old hymn, Amazing Grace, when I was in The Way.
Here is the first stanza. I have done a strike-through to reflect one of the changes Wierwille made to the lyrics. It's only one word. Yet, I think it accurately reflects the essence of how Wierwille perverted the intended message.
What I hear on this thread lately is, "You're not listening to meeeeee!!!"
Johniam can't hear what others say, and others cannot hear what Johniam says.
Or rather, they do hear, but can't understand.
Having said that, I find it somewhat difficult, too, to understand why Johniam persists in thinking VPW "good."
I do undesrtand that he learned enough scripture to turn his life around and that really helped him.
That should be to God's glory - not VPW's.
It is very sad, but isn't compassion about being able to empathize with others, about attempting to understand where they are coming from? And how can one be compassionate, without attempting to see the other's point of view (you don't have to accept it, just make an effort to see it).
No way could VPW be considered compassionate. For him it was me me me me me all the way. He didn't consider others except to the extent he could get something from them...money, prestige, adulation.
If someone doesn't show compassion (and Jesus Christ was full of compassion), how can they be cnsidered a "good" man?
Good in what sense? Not a godly sense.
Good in a devilry-promoting sense, maybe.
Waysider, it was "That saved a soul like me" when I was in...but hey, they still changed the words. Maybe several times. Not just to that song, but to many others as well.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Well, the last time I checked, I was a woman who joined the Navy!! I love this poster!! Anyhow, to add my few pennies, I think VBW was a sick man!! A few years ago, a woman posted here at the Cafe
waysider
I think the realization they were able to keep so much hidden speaks volumes about just how corrupt and deceptive the whole operation was.
chockfull
"Was vpw a good man?" for God to decide - I don't own the scales of Justice. but you only need to insert one little adjective into that statement to make it one that resounds with a universa
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skyrider
I've posted this before, but to illustrate this point...
In 1980, wierwille was teaching the inresidence corps and staff corps grads in the OSC Building. One of the main focal points of the corps program was the weekly corps meeting, commonly referred to as 'Corps Night.' Generally, these meetings had about one hour and fifteen to thirty minutes of preliminary structure and announcements before the main teacher took the stage. Three hour corps meetings were common.
On this night, a 6th corps grad was seated in the third row. For years, he had wanted to work on staff and be near the 'heart of the ministry' and would arrive early at corps meetings to get the closest seat. So, after all the preliminary stuff and martindale rants.....wierwille finally was seated at the teacher's desk.
About 20 minutes into wierwille's teaching those literal translations according to usage in Romans.....this 6th corps grad started nodding off. I was seated about seven rows behind him stage left and watched it unfold. Others next to him tried to shake him and keep him awake, but after about 10 minutes.....it happened! Wierwille saw him nodding off and went ballistic!
With fiery eyes and a vehemence that I'd never seen in wierwille.....he ripped into the corps grad to shred him. Hundreds of corps witnessed this character assassination. Wierwille kept attacking his commitment, his corps status, his life, he was POSSESSED...... the verbal onslaught continued until martindale stepped in to tag-team this assault. Wierwille fumed and stepped back stage.
Now, martindale went after him. "How dare he nod off when 'the man of God' is teaching the greatness of this word of God!" yelled martindale. Ranting and ranting, the onslaught continued......and no one came to his defense. Not one. Nor did I.....
Finally, after some 20 minutes or so.....wierwille came back on stage and sorta finished his teaching. Even to this day, nearly 31 years later.....I can vividly see wierwille's rage!!
The next day, the corps grad was fired and sent packing. A few weeks passed and he was diagnosed with severe blood sugar complications. With medication and rigid diet, he received the medical attention that he so badly needed.
All of this begs the question.......HOW SPIRITUAL WAS WIERWILLE and/or MARTINDALE?
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leafytwiglet
All these things just point out in glaring clarity that VP and The Way were no Chrisitan ministry and were not following in the footsteps of Christs Example.
Christ healed people. He did not label them and send them packing after yelling at them and denigrating them. He spent time with the sinners bringing them healing and support. Not looking only for those who were financially and emotionally stable.
The question at the beggining of this thread was, Was VP a good man.
I Say no.
For all the reasons above.
How many of you went to the few meetings off HQ campus that VP was at hoping for him to heal you or someone you knew... I never saw him heal anyone... infact the one time a friend had an epileptic fit during a meeting Craig was at, Craig called him possesed and told every one not to touch him... he left The way immediately after that meeting. He was a good Christian Man with a scar on his brain tissue which caused his seizure not a possesed person... It was one of the times and incidents that started me on the road to walking away from TWI... It would still be many more before I got it.
But I certainly get it now.
Councilors and psychologists are there to help you recognize what happened to you during traumatic situations... they help you with coping with the trauma and give you alternate ways to deal with situations that come up in your life or that are bothering you. THey give you alternative actions to use instead of the actions you have been doing.
I see so clearly now how very inadequate what TWI did was, how counter productive.
VP was a very bad Man.. He was not a man of GOD. He was an alcoholic, a lier, a cheat, a rapist, a swindler, a thief... he ran a long con, and we all fell for it. He was a wolf in sheeps clothing and he stole lambs from God's flock. THe Bible that he taught was horribly flawed and he purposefully taught the errors he taught to run his con... was there truth mixed in the lies... well there would have had to have been in order for the long con to work. He was everything he accused all the churches of being and then some. I find it sad that people have continued teaching his drivel and I would question their truthfulness and integrity and I suggest in light of recognizing VP's Long Con--- that they are all running their own long con.
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brainfixed
i just read your words to a friend of mine and after this last line he said "ya think?", and yes i do think nowadays after many years of not thinking but just living in a "bubble" trying to sort it all out all by myself, when my "bubble" broke and i finally saw the world and all that is in it then i knew i had to get checked out. if i hadn't gone and got the help i needed (i was "in-patient" for a total of 6 months and "out-patient" for a total of 2 1/2 years) i'd be like a rabid animal just running scared all the time and "biting" anybody that threatened my world. the way international's "word" made me so far worse than i would have been otherwise and it took "the world" to undo the damage. i'm very thankful "the world" was still there for me.
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Twinky
Acts 20:7-12 (NIV)
Eutychus Raised From the Dead at Troas
7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.
8 There were many lamps in the upstairs room where we were meeting.
9 Seated in a window was a young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep as Paul talked on and on. When he was sound asleep, he fell to the ground from the third story and was picked up dead.
10 Paul went down, threw himself on the young man and put his arms around him. "Don't be alarmed," he said. "He's alive!"
11 Then he went upstairs again and broke bread and ate. After talking until daylight, he left.
12 The people took the young man home alive and were greatly comforted.
Compare and contrast.
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waysider
Lots of people thought John Wayne Gacy was a "good man".
So, what drives people to defend VPW, even exalt him?
I can understand this sort of thing from people who are unaware of what happened. But, what about people who are aware of the sort of monster that was actually hiding behind the mask? What drives them to deny the truth?
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skyrider
waysider.....I've pondered that question many times.
Could it be that someone striving for self-importance or 'above the rest'.....clings to the past attachment of experiencing a unique point in time, a person, or a movement that defines them? The world is filled with people who are obsessed with mysteries, ufo's, cults, occults, dictators, celebrities, rappers........you name it, its there.
Besides, when wierwille walked the earth.......I WAS THERE.
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johniam
Wordwolf: Once again you misrepresent me.
quote: I have no use whatsoever for psychotherapy, but that doesn't mean it hasn't helped anyone.
I've been to mental health professionals 3 times (3 periods of time). In 1971 my mom thought I was crazy cause I smoked pot and dropped acid. In 1975 the state of MI required me to get counselling after I was arrested for marijuana the 2nd time. I used the same counsellor both times. In 1976 I myself thought I needed it. This third time the guy for sure was a psychotherapist. I'm not sure about the other guy. The last guy was into something called rational emotive therapy. Gave me a book. That sounds like another oxymoron, just like "reasonable spiritual suspicion".
Not one of those guys helped me. I can't even remember anything they ever said to me.
I quit going to the last guy after 3 or 4 sessions. He voiced his objection. Later that year I got in the word. Whew!
Quote: It's shocking how all the people who denigrate Psychiatry don't even know the main difference between
Psychiatry and Psychology.
The main difference, which you didn't even state, is that in order to be a psychiatrist, one has to already have a medical doctor's degree; this enables them to prescribe drugs. A psychologist basically talks to you. I learned that in intro to psychology at a community college.
As I said, I admit that psychology/psychiatry has helped some people, but it pales next to the word of God. I knew 2 believers who died because of medication prescribed to them for "depression". One of them just kept getting more and more meds to take; died at 42; body shut down. The other one was in his mid 50s; mixed beer with the meds; died in a recliner.
Jesus had to walk on water because there were no jet skis he could rent. I suppose it is possible that Jesus had to directly heal some of those people because of chemical imbalances because there was no medication for it at the time. What about the guy crying and cutting himself in the tombs? What would a psychologist recommend today for a guy like that? PFAL? Christianity? Didn't think so.
One concern I have is that because of the clout the industry has in our culture, they could say that Jesus never had a psych evaluation done on him. How do we know that he wasn't a paranoid schizophrenic? We'd better outlaw all copies of the bible from now on. Can't happen here?
I've read a few more chapters of Billy Graham's book. I didn't say he was evil. He is Christian. It's very easy to tell this by his writings. The world calls him an evangelist, but he functions more as a prophet, I think. VPs definitions of the gift ministries have not been often disputed here on GSC that I recall. An evangelist is one who speaks for God to those outside the pail, so to speak; one who wins the lost. A prophet is one who speaks for God to God's people, either by foretelling or by forth telling. Some of Jeremiah's writings are addressed to nations other than Israel. Although he was never called an evangelist, it's clear that both men spoke to God's people and to others. BG is always calling people back to God, back to the word of God. He has much reproof for Christians in this book, even ministers.
I heard VP diss BG twice live. Once in Apr '78 he said BG didn't stick up for Anita Bryant; just let her get thrown to the wolves when she was taking heat for her homo stand. Then in '82 during lunch at Living Victoriously he said BG made an a$$ of himself in Russia and made the Russian leaders just want to continue persecuting Christians. That doesn't even include the scathing remarks he made about him in the SNS teaching called 'The way of life and death' from March '76. I know an 11th corps grad who told me he was an usher at a BG crucade before he was in twi. Said one night BG all but said he SIT'd and it was a good thing. Next night he took it all back. You just don't get that kind of money behind your ministry without SOMEONE (a person) having the option of giving you marching orders if they feel like it. VP had the guts to go it alone. I respect that.
We were NOT brainwashed; we believed something that made logical sense to us. Remember, Jesus was slandered by those Jews. That had a lot to do with his crucifiction even being possible. Paul was slandered; Martin Luther was slandered. VPs evil doesn't negate the word of God.
What are you all going to do if VPs "judgement" isn't as ugly as you think it should be? Demand that God let you die the 2nd death with the unbelievers?
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cman
the lack of real info here is kind of funny
but no one really wants to get too deep at this time at greasespot
we shall all be changed and changed and changed
even that bastard vp
was vp a good man? don't care anymore
a lot were not, and worse
took 4 years to blast 20 years of twi out of my life
but it got done and over with,
if it was some kind of 'god plan' or not
i can't waste my time trying to figure that out
so many terms used here without understanding
casting out spirits, by the spirit-figure that one
psychiatrist, psychology
till you are deep in it you'll never see
even then there's more
missing completely the more important substances of our being
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Broken Arrow
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johniam
Cman: If you got help from a mental health professional, praise God! I'm only saying what's worked for me. God wants you to feel good about yourself.
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waysider
"We were NOT brainwashed; we believed something that made logical sense to us."
BRAINWASHING
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cman
i don't believe i said that
and as your posts are running in like manner in this thread
i seriously doubt you even see an issue with anything stated
but rather that which you have issues with yourself
which is fine, i mean i don't mind, and i believe you think the way you state
it's just that you don't see what others have said, or doubt their honesty
don't know which, but i'm sure they are thinking and speaking as they see it
it wasn't a 'mental health professional' that helped me
not with getting the way/pfal burned out of my brain
i've only met one who had a clue anyway, not that i've met many
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cman
feeling good about yourself comes and goes
sometimes 'god' wants you to take an honest look at yourself
whether it makes you feel good or not
the pearly gates are on fire
when you pass thru, you feeling good will not be a factor
if you can detach yourself from yourSELF
perhaps you can see God in the fire and thru it
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brainfixed
you and your "we" can only apply to you yourself because you don't know at all why or what or how come anybody else "believed" the way international hogwash. over and over again in the pages here at greasespot cafe are people writing about how they had that "little feeling" about something they couldn't quite put their finger on so they questioned "leadership", and how did that go for them? yah, they were degraded and mocked and ridiculed and accused of everything from having a "devil spirt" to being gay to being "seed boys" and much of the written testimony here on these pages is that if a person kept asking questions then "leadership" called in their spouses or children or parents or bosses or whoever else was in the questioning person's life at the time and slandered that person until people got fired or found themselves having to choose between that "little feeling" and their loved ones. and all of this after lengthy periods of endoctrination to self doubt. and what about the kids that had no choice about any of it and were raised without knowing much else in this world?
it is obvious that you don't even believe most of what the way international taught you or you wouldn't ask this question because the way international taught that "believers" in the way international would have "perfectly renewed mind" when they got up after that long sleep in the dirt, so what do you think anybody with "perfectly renewed mind" would think? oh yah i keep forgetting that you think that people that don't think like you now won't think like you then because we have already lost our "perfectly renewed mind" because our seed was corruptible and we lost it when we spit out the teachings of the way international, but since you still worship that "word" according to that "mog" then your seed is still "incorruptible" and the rest of us are going to get our "faces melted at the bema", and you're probably going to be one of them doing the "face melting". but wait a minute, your question says "demand that god let you die the 2nd death with the unbelievers?" so maybe you think some of us are going to get up with "perfectly renewed mind". i just can't keep up with your logic here because it's so much like being on that wheel people put in hamster cages, except that it spirals instead of just going around and around.
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waysider
Indeed. It spirals downward until, finally, a loud Whoooooshing sound is heard
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geisha779
What does this even mean? Where are you getting this? I am not saying you are wrong.....but, how do you even glean this from the scriptures? You are, in fact, declaring what God wants.....I am assuming when one speaks so blatantly for God, they have some depth of understanding concerning the scriptures.
Doesn't scripture tell us to repent and to be changed....to place our faith in Him. . . . to become a new creature in Christ? In my bible, it tells me that is where we feel good.....in Him. We get our joy in knowing Him.....we get our peace from trusting Him....we do good works He has ordained for us......and we are told.... Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. (Much like cman said).
To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
It is just not about "self" as Christians...it is all about Jesus. We feel good about Him.
I know you assume that people here are all born-again, but some people here reject Christ. Many are just unsure what they believe anymore, but know they don't believe the gospel they heard in PFAL. (I think that is a very good thing btw). So, how can you declare them as saved? Is Jesus death and resurrection that cheapened in your view? Is God so inefficient?
When I worship God....that Holy presence is overwhelming...I don't say "Look at me I feel good about myself" I am awestruck with wonder at Him, His holiness, that indescribable good, that love. I only have praise or thanks. I am incapable of anything else.
I do believe God wants us to feel good about Him.....and that comes from knowing Him and that He is.....it has little to do with me. I don't like the way I look standing before Him....which is why I need a savior.
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johniam
Brainfixed, you lost me with that last post.
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waysider
Circular Reasoning
Bill: "God must exist."
Jill: "How do you know."
Bill: "Because the Bible says so."
Jill: "Why should I believe the Bible?"
Bill: "Because the Bible was written by God."
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johniam
Geisha: How can we feel good about God or anything if we don't feel good about ourselves? God didn't call us out as indentured servants; He called us as sons and daughters. You can't sell joy and peace to anyone else if you aren't convinced you've got it yourself. I felt overwhelmed sometimes when I did LSD. Feelings come and go. Incorruptible seed is God's doing. It's not a scam.
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geisha779
What you are saying is opposed to what the scriptures say. We don't feel good about ourselves first and then God.....that goodness comes from God. And..... yes..... we are servants.
I am not trying to "sell" anyone anything.
I simply said joy and peace come from God....from knowing Him. That is where the glory goes....to God. Not us.
There is a huge difference between Dale Carnegie and the gospel of Jesus Christ.
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brainfixed
i think that ship sailed long before that last post.
and the congregation all said "amen".
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waysider
I remember singing the old hymn, Amazing Grace, when I was in The Way.
Here is the first stanza. I have done a strike-through to reflect one of the changes Wierwille made to the lyrics. It's only one word. Yet, I think it accurately reflects the essence of how Wierwille perverted the intended message.
Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch someone like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.
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waysider
Just one word, that's all it took for Wierwille to reveal his lack of remorse and repentance for the dastardly deeds he'd committed.
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Twinky
What I hear on this thread lately is, "You're not listening to meeeeee!!!"
Johniam can't hear what others say, and others cannot hear what Johniam says.
Or rather, they do hear, but can't understand.
Having said that, I find it somewhat difficult, too, to understand why Johniam persists in thinking VPW "good."
I do undesrtand that he learned enough scripture to turn his life around and that really helped him.
That should be to God's glory - not VPW's.
It is very sad, but isn't compassion about being able to empathize with others, about attempting to understand where they are coming from? And how can one be compassionate, without attempting to see the other's point of view (you don't have to accept it, just make an effort to see it).
No way could VPW be considered compassionate. For him it was me me me me me all the way. He didn't consider others except to the extent he could get something from them...money, prestige, adulation.
If someone doesn't show compassion (and Jesus Christ was full of compassion), how can they be cnsidered a "good" man?
Good in what sense? Not a godly sense.
Good in a devilry-promoting sense, maybe.
Waysider, it was "That saved a soul like me" when I was in...but hey, they still changed the words. Maybe several times. Not just to that song, but to many others as well.
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