Not my business really, but did it ever strike you as strange when you were in TWI that his other two daughters spent practically no time at all at HQ, and that you hardly heard much about them? Don didn't spend much time there either until he was brought on board.
As others mentioned VP sexually molested his own daughter... what makes you think she was a teen ager and what makes you think he only did it once
quote = johniam:
She lives in MI. Why don't you call her and ask her about it rather than blindly believe what someone posted here. There's a website called zabasearch.com that will give phone numbers and addresses for free. Go ahead, call her. And while you're at it, why don't you ask her how she feels about the things said here about her dad?
Reply to Johniam
I would never presume to call her out of the blue as a total stranger... and you forget I was abused by my stepfather and would have no problem with others discussing the merits of whether he was good or bad in light of his own claims on what he did.
Also as a person who was molested and have heard what my step dad told others about what he did,considering that information in light of what was actually done... my step dad never told anyone the extend of his depravity... so if VP claimed only one instance of molestation, I know to the very bottom of my heart that there was more, how many? who knows... but I also know that My step dad used a lot of excuses for why it was okay, what he did... just as VP did.
but that doesn't make it right ... and no real man who put's GOD and God's word first in his life would do anything so horrible.. and then justify it with what some obscure supposed aboriginal tribe(he probably made up) did.
And in regards to basing your behavior on what some aboriginal tribe does... why would you do that when you have decided that your life will be based on what followers of God and jesus Christ have set as the standard for their life. I am not talking about reading about other religions and seeing where tehy all meeet in agreement about what is right for people to do to live in harmony... I am saying look at how he took something like that to excuse himself from following what was so obviously set forth in the bible as the way to live your life.
The answer seems so simple and clear and it's hard to understand how people attempt to leverage God "looking on the heart" as a way to think that somehow God's going to not see what we really think, are, and want in life. That's the fabric of our relationship with God. And it adds layers of depth to what we then actually DO in life.
that was nice
previously in wayfer years, i was told god looks on the heart as a way to excuse the abuse we're talking about. you know, abuse someone WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT and god will look on the heart lol lol
Dead and gone and if we are smart....we will leave him there. Surprising though....how his peculiar brand of religion can still have a stranglehold. On some....I meant to say a stranglehold on some.
And therein lies the point of NOT letting this slip into the shadows of history. VPW's legacy lives on in these clowns who still promote this sort of thinking. Ergo, it's not really "past history" at all. It's alive and well wherever the praises of "our Father, who art in New Knoxville' are being sung.
And therein lies the point of NOT letting this slip into the shadows of history. VPW's legacy lives on in these clowns who still promote this sort of thinking. Ergo, it's not really "past history" at all. It's alive and well wherever the praises of "our Father, who art in New Knoxville' are being sung.
On the other hand....resurrecting VP every night, year after year, sometimes every couple of hours.... is also keeping him alive.
Maybe that is still, in some form, giving him a place in this life he should not have.
That too is keeping a part of his legacy alive. It just is....
He has been dead 25 years! 25 years....and there are people who talk about him or TWI in some form or another every single day. Including Thanksgiving and Christmas!!
It is past history. It is a sad part of our shared past history. That is what it is.....
There are all kinds of people promoting all kinds of thinking.....much bigger fish in way bigger ponds. As has been pointed out....VP stole much of what he passed off....this stuff made the rounds long before VP and it will come again in another form.
I say let him die....and embrace the life we want to live. If people are still exalting VP and what he taught despite all the information available....maybe that is who they want to be.
quote: i would not allow any children around you and i would warn anybody i knew about the things you have written here.
That's interesting. Just hours ago I was told by several degreed educational professionals that my wife and I are committed, involved parents whom they really appreciate working with, as well as our 3 kids. These people have known us for over 10 years. But you can read a few of my posts, and you know all about me. Nice.
If you don't want feedback, why are you posting?
To be frank, based on what I've seen you write, I wouldn't let you be put in any sort of authority over children either. Do I know all about you? No. But to me your writings suggest you have some broken boundaries when it comes to establishing healthy sexual boundaries toward children, at least in your mind. To this point you refuse to see it in yourself and you throw up defenses in avoidance.
I'm going to step out of this discussion now because I have nothing more to add that hasn't already been said. In the end we stand before the Father and all of us will have to give an account. With that being said, I wish you Godspeed.
Broken arrow: Feedback doesn't have to imply slander. What gives you or anyone else the "authority" to judge me. That's the self righteous attitude that persists to this day I referred to earlier. BTW, two years ago I had a second job as a substitue custodian in our school district. I worked 2 nights a week from 3-11. I have never been screened for a job as thoroughly as this...FBI background check, child abuse background check, you name it. They hired me, and most of my assignments were to elementary schools. I'm 56 years old. Do you think they would have let me anywhere near KIDS if there was anything at all on my record???? You're the ones saying that sex offenders don't just do stuff once, that there's a pattern.
quote: Not my business really, but did it ever strike you as strange when you were in TWI that his other two daughters spent practically no time at all at HQ, and that you hardly heard much about them? Don didn't spend much time there either until he was brought on board.
Don was getting his PHD up to the time they brought him on board (1977) and each of the other daughters was married to a successful man. Karen was involved in editing/proofreading VPs books and Mary's husband, John Summerville, was regularly talking to VP and the way corps. But don't let me stop your witch hunt.
I'm reading a Billy Graham book right now, called 'World aflame' (1965). He had many of the same concerns VP did in pfal. Was BG a good man? Most of you would probably say so. He had access to really famous people that VP never did. I've heard people say that BG never had any scandals associated with him. Idolatry (trinity) is definitely a scandal as far as God is concerned. I've only read the first 3 chspters, but the one thing that sticks out in my mind is that he really bought into psychiatry/psychology, which to me is clearly a counterfeit of the wisdom of God. I do have some respect for BG (he is, after all a Christian whose impact has been felt for decades), but it surprises me that he can't (couldn't) see that psychiatry/psychology is, at best, a generous mouth piece of world wisdom. At worst, it's a scam.
In the bible, people with symptoms of "mental illness" were being attacked by unclean spirits. Jesus din't say thou unclean SYNDROME I command thee come out of him. Nor did he say unclean developmental disorder, he said SPIRIT!! We've all heard people who see devil spirits in everything, but they do actually exist. Psychiatrists/psychologists believe there's no such thing as spirits/ that everything is "all in your mind". That's like taking a knife to a gun fight. All they do is drug people with more damaging and powerful drugs than the pot and acid we all did, which only serves to incapacitate the mind of the patient so the spirit(s) is now limited in what it can get the patient to do. They don't actually cure (remove the cause) the person's problem. The drugs will certainly shorten the person's life. It's a multi billion dollar scam.
These people (psychiatrists and psychologists) actually have enough clout that they're allowed to testify in court as "expert witnesses" about why someone behaves as he/she does. What a joke. Devil must be laughing his rear end off. They might as well have Gomer Pyle testify as an expert witness for the Marine corps. I can see that some of you also buy into this false wisdom. No thanks.
What gives you or anyone else the "authority" to judge me.
the very fact that i have a functioning brain.
the way international used this evil tactic you're using to shut up anybody that saw the sin inherent in the way international, and because by the time anybody was deep enough into the way international to see the inherent sin, that means they were also deep enough into the mindset to accept "who are you to judge me?" as a valid way to "think no evil" and all that other pure evil thinking that "calls evil good and good evil".
In the bible, people with symptoms of "mental illness" were being attacked by unclean spirits. Jesus din't say thou unclean SYNDROME I command thee come out of him. Nor did he say unclean developmental disorder, he said SPIRIT!! We've all heard people who see devil spirits in everything, but they do actually exist. Psychiatrists/psychologists believe there's no such thing as spirits/ that everything is "all in your mind". That's like taking a knife to a gun fight. All they do is drug people with more damaging and powerful drugs than the pot and acid we all did, which only serves to incapacitate the mind of the patient so the spirit(s) is now limited in what it can get the patient to do. They don't actually cure (remove the cause) the person's problem. The drugs will certainly shorten the person's life. It's a multi billion dollar scam.
In the bible, Jesus Christ exposes and casts out unclean/devil spirits. Time and time again, the scriptures illustrate his walk of power over the kingdoms of the world. After Pentecost, the scriptures reference other men who did the same.
YET.......in all wierwille and twi leadership bravado, I never saw or heard one incident of anyone casting out a devil spirit.
Several incidents come to mind while I was on staff.....eight to ten, at least. And, what did I see wierwille do? what did I see martindale do? what did finneg@n do? YELL at the individual, name-calling someone possessed. BUT......No casting out of a spirit. No demonstration of spiritual power.
One 6th corps guy who wierwille and martindale yelled at for some 30 minutes and fired from staff the next day........found out weeks later that he had severe blood sugar anemia.
Another incident, wierwille yelled at an 8th corps guy in regards to "The Tracker" program that they attended. This 8th corps guy raved and raved, in the BRC (to an audience) how incredibly awesome the guy was and his classes. Wierwille went ballistic with rage!!! Wierwille didn't want to play second fiddle to anyone. Wierwille called this 8th corps guy possessed and within five minutes stomped off stage.
I saw many other incidents............
How many were labeled "possessed"......yet? NOTHING.
How many times vpw talked big..........yet? NOTHING.
And, then.......wierwille dies of cancer......a devil spirit?
Maybe there's a Yelling Spirit, or some gene of spiritual DNA that forms the basis for it so that when mutated, a quiet heart and humble mind to work turns....loud.
I jest. I would think the Devil himself would say "SHUDDDDUP!" at some point after an hour of LCM in the Lunch room. Missed all of that, thankfully. I bet a lot of people got good at "gotta go!" back then, eager to get back to work. Inspirational, in it's own way I guess.
I guess such a topic as anyone being "good" is bound to cover a lot of ground. Spirit-za with fries - easy on the catch up!
Colon cleanse next? Now THAT was bad. My colon still wants flowers every year and a card for that one.
the way international used this evil tactic you're using to shut up anybody that saw the sin inherent in the way international, and because by the time anybody was deep enough into the way international to see the inherent sin, that means they were also deep enough into the mindset to accept "who are you to judge me?" as a valid way to "think no evil" and all that other pure evil thinking that "calls evil good and good evil".
This is what can happen on a witch hunt. You get in 'witch hunt mode' and just start accusing everybody in your path of everything under the sun. TWI did this in 1994 with the debt purge, homo purge, and unproductive evil purge. "Pure evil thinking"??? That's got to be another oxymoron to add to the list. Right up there with Cheryl Crow's 'My favorite mistake'.
"That's interesting. Just hours ago I was told by several degreed educational professionals that my wife and I are committed, involved parents whom they really appreciate working with, as well as our 3 kids. These people have known us for over 10 years."
Have you told these people yet what a low opinion you have of higher education and the mental health professions?
No comparison. As I posted earlier, that would be like comparing an AK47 to a pocket knife.
No, John, I believe your analogy is flawed. You, yourself, in this very thread, have spoken in derogatory terms regarding higher education and mental health professionals. Shall I cut and paste those statements for you? Yet, you do an about face and try to use their esteem to bolster your position. Can't have your cake and eat it, too, I'm afraid. This was a common ploy of Dr. (You know he wasn't really a Dr., don't you?) Wierwille. There are multiple examples of this very thing in PLAF (The Wonder Class).
No, John, I believe your analogy is flawed. You, yourself, in this very thread, have spoken in derogatory terms regarding higher education and mental health professionals. Shall I cut and paste those statements for you? Yet, you do an about face and try to use their esteem to bolster your position. Can't have your cake and eat it, too, I'm afraid. This was a common ploy of Dr. (You know he wasn't really a Dr., don't you?) Wierwille. There are multiple examples of this very thing in PLAF (The Wonder Class).
Waysider. One reason I don't always respond to your posts is because, IMO, you seem to have a consistent, one dimensional method of processing what people post. I have no use whatsoever for psychotherapy, but that doesn't mean it hasn't helped anyone. While I find the educational system to have its flaws, I still recognize that it's not going anywhere and that it's always going to be a common point of reference in many topics of discussion. I'm certain that educators and psychologists will freely quote scripture, or quote opinions of religious leaders if they think it will support their point, positively or negatively.
I'm reading a Billy Graham book right now, called 'World aflame' (1965). He had many of the same concerns VP did in pfal. Was BG a good man? Most of you would probably say so. He had access to really famous people that VP never did. I've heard people say that BG never had any scandals associated with him. Idolatry (trinity) is definitely a scandal as far as God is concerned. I've only read the first 3 chspters, but the one thing that sticks out in my mind is that he really bought into psychiatry/psychology, which to me is clearly a counterfeit of the wisdom of God. I do have some respect for BG (he is, after all a Christian whose impact has been felt for decades), but it surprises me that he can't (couldn't) see that psychiatry/psychology is, at best, a generous mouth piece of world wisdom. At worst, it's a scam.
[i was thinking how absolutely shameless the remnant of vpw defenders can get, willing to redefine
terms, to manufacture things, to sweep anything vpw did under a rug while making up faults of others
and magnifying them, all as smoke-screens to try to make their deeds look as evil as vpw's.
Then it hit me- part of this is still "regurgitate anything vpw said." vpw was quite fond of denigrating
any field he did not understand- with the exceptions of any practitioners who were in twi. Then, suddenly,
the field was respectable- and the twi practitioner was called the greatest practitioner in the world.
This happened, among other things, with vpw and the fields of Psychology, Psychiatry, and people like
Tony C, who appeared on the cover of "Heart" magazine and was interviewed for it. vpw didn't understand
Psychology and Psychiatry, so he denigrated them-until Tony C joined twi. BTW, I spoke to Tony a long
time ago. He seemed quite reasonable both as a Christian and as a Psychologist. But twi'ers who never
read that Heart Magazine or never met Tony were still repeating the twi mantra that Psychology was of no
use. It's amazing how many fields of study were useless according to twi. I also heard someone denigrated
people who work on the news.
Outside of twi circles, it's rather shocking that there are Christians who are ready to dismiss entire fields
of Psychology and Psychiatry. It's more shocking when one knows many Christians who practice either, and many
more who have been helped by them. In the last 20-30 years alone, some considerable advances have been made in
Psychiatry. It's shocking how all the people who denigrate Psychiatry don't even know the main difference between
Psychiatry and Psychology.
Most people nowadays, including most Christians, are aware there are some chemical imbalances and occasional
structural problems in the central nervous systems of a minority of people. "Devil spirits?" No, birth defects
and the like. To misdiagnose a problem with someone's biology as "devil spirits" is as sensible as trying to
fix a broken arm with "driving the demon out" or the like. A competent Psychiatrist then attempts to rebalance
the brain chemistry or otherwise correct the biological problem with medication. Sometimes it takes a lot to
get to a solution, sometimes it works pretty soon. Generally, Psychology comes in very handy once the chemicals
are balanced- so the person can learn better coping mechanisms and join the rest of us in productive lives.
How effective can it be? I knew one Christian who seemed 100% normal and not unusual in any way, who was on
psychiatric medication that helped her stay that way. (She seemed more normal than me, certainly.)
As for Psychology being of use or other than "devil possession", it's sad that some people don't know any better
in an educated society like the US. There's plenty of people- adults, children- who are working with a mental
health care professional to help correct problems developing from trauma experienced as an adult, or -more commonly-
as a child, and learning to adjust and move on with their lives. If you had a family member or a friend who'd
survived abuse as a child and was seeing a Psychologist, you'd be a lot slower to denigrate the help they and
thousands of other people get each year.
twi certainly could have used a few Psychologists on staff. With vpw and others inflicting psychological damage
on people, actually having someone who could try to REPAIR the damage would have helped some people, and may have
prevented some suicides of people vpw sent home. Don't forget, it was standard practice for vpw to send anyone
home if they had some sort of psychological problem. Putting people alone on a bus is the opposite of actually
HELPING them. Small wonder some got lost on the way home, or committed suicide.
Trying to make Billy Graham look bad because he lacks vpw's uneducated bias against mental healthcare professionals?
That's an under-educated approach, and a rather clumsy attempt to make the man look as evil as vpw.
Billy Graham conducted himself as a Christian, and made successful efforts to treat his fellow Christians
(and non-Christians) like the Bible says we are supposed to.
In the bible, people with symptoms of "mental illness" were being attacked by unclean spirits. Jesus din't say thou unclean SYNDROME I command thee come out of him. Nor did he say unclean developmental disorder, he said SPIRIT!! We've all heard people who see devil spirits in everything, but they do actually exist. Psychiatrists/psychologists believe there's no such thing as spirits/ that everything is "all in your mind". That's like taking a knife to a gun fight. All they do is drug people with more damaging and powerful drugs than the pot and acid we all did, which only serves to incapacitate the mind of the patient so the spirit(s) is now limited in what it can get the patient to do. They don't actually cure (remove the cause) the person's problem. The drugs will certainly shorten the person's life. It's a multi billion dollar scam.
These people (psychiatrists and psychologists) actually have enough clout that they're allowed to testify in court as "expert witnesses" about why someone behaves as he/she does. What a joke. Devil must be laughing his rear end off. They might as well have Gomer Pyle testify as an expert witness for the Marine corps. I can see that some of you also buy into this false wisdom. No thanks.
If you can't tell the difference between people with unclean spirits and people with psychiatric disorders,
you have no business discussing EITHER. Some Christians can easily tell them apart.
Actually, I've seen non-Christians with no training in Psychology who could tell them apart.
If you think the sole function of medication prescribed by Psychiatrists is to "incapacitate the mind",
then you have a shocking ignorance of what they do. Rather than incapacitate the patient, the goal-
and often it is reached successfully but no medical field is 100% effective- is for the patient to resume
normal activities and be a regular, functioning, contributing member of society.
I've known Christians for whom that was effective. If you want to limit yourself to the lack of knowledge
vpw had on the subject, that's your business, but it's pretty evident to any educated person that it's a
glaring deficiency in your education.
Which, all things considered, is ANOTHER evil thing vpw did. If vpw hadn't ruthlessly condemned the fields
of people who could have helped his victims, more would have gotten help sooner, and fewer would have committed
suicide as a direct or indirect result of their exposure to vpw. Not like he cared- what were a few more
victims to him? He just made sure to label them and say it was their own weakness and "devil spirits"
that killed them, then he went back to making more victims.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Well, the last time I checked, I was a woman who joined the Navy!! I love this poster!! Anyhow, to add my few pennies, I think VBW was a sick man!! A few years ago, a woman posted here at the Cafe
waysider
I think the realization they were able to keep so much hidden speaks volumes about just how corrupt and deceptive the whole operation was.
chockfull
"Was vpw a good man?" for God to decide - I don't own the scales of Justice. but you only need to insert one little adjective into that statement to make it one that resounds with a universa
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waysider
Yes, I did wonder about that at times.
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leafytwiglet
quote = Leafytwiglet:
As others mentioned VP sexually molested his own daughter... what makes you think she was a teen ager and what makes you think he only did it once
quote = johniam:
She lives in MI. Why don't you call her and ask her about it rather than blindly believe what someone posted here. There's a website called zabasearch.com that will give phone numbers and addresses for free. Go ahead, call her. And while you're at it, why don't you ask her how she feels about the things said here about her dad?
Reply to Johniam
I would never presume to call her out of the blue as a total stranger... and you forget I was abused by my stepfather and would have no problem with others discussing the merits of whether he was good or bad in light of his own claims on what he did.
Also as a person who was molested and have heard what my step dad told others about what he did,considering that information in light of what was actually done... my step dad never told anyone the extend of his depravity... so if VP claimed only one instance of molestation, I know to the very bottom of my heart that there was more, how many? who knows... but I also know that My step dad used a lot of excuses for why it was okay, what he did... just as VP did.
but that doesn't make it right ... and no real man who put's GOD and God's word first in his life would do anything so horrible.. and then justify it with what some obscure supposed aboriginal tribe(he probably made up) did.
And in regards to basing your behavior on what some aboriginal tribe does... why would you do that when you have decided that your life will be based on what followers of God and jesus Christ have set as the standard for their life. I am not talking about reading about other religions and seeing where tehy all meeet in agreement about what is right for people to do to live in harmony... I am saying look at how he took something like that to excuse himself from following what was so obviously set forth in the bible as the way to live your life.
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excathedra
she doesn't remember it
--
that was nice
previously in wayfer years, i was told god looks on the heart as a way to excuse the abuse we're talking about. you know, abuse someone WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT and god will look on the heart lol lol
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Ham
there are few I've found that really bought into this "way" nonsense..
at least from those I've observed.
they were corps, AND limb or higher coordinators..
that is sex is "not a big deal.."
it all brings me back to days long past..
Mr Big "counseled" da poor inductee:
"but this guy is a nutcase.. he won't keep his hands off of me.."
oh yes. whoever "he" was, had some money in life..
"how many times do we have to go over this.. JUST GET LAID.. get over it.."
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Ham
maybe what I'm trying to say is..
his *men(?)" were dispicible..
where does that leave him?
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geisha779
Dead and gone and if we are smart....we will leave him there. Surprising though....how his peculiar brand of religion can still have a stranglehold. On some....I meant to say a stranglehold on some.
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Ham
yeah.. dead and gone, if we are SMART..
:)
some haven't arrived there yet..
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waysider
And therein lies the point of NOT letting this slip into the shadows of history. VPW's legacy lives on in these clowns who still promote this sort of thinking. Ergo, it's not really "past history" at all. It's alive and well wherever the praises of "our Father, who art in New Knoxville' are being sung.
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Ham
Yep. as long as there is a dollar to be made, a cult to be built..
a following to be acquired..
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geisha779
On the other hand....resurrecting VP every night, year after year, sometimes every couple of hours.... is also keeping him alive.
Maybe that is still, in some form, giving him a place in this life he should not have.
That too is keeping a part of his legacy alive. It just is....
He has been dead 25 years! 25 years....and there are people who talk about him or TWI in some form or another every single day. Including Thanksgiving and Christmas!!
It is past history. It is a sad part of our shared past history. That is what it is.....
There are all kinds of people promoting all kinds of thinking.....much bigger fish in way bigger ponds. As has been pointed out....VP stole much of what he passed off....this stuff made the rounds long before VP and it will come again in another form.
I say let him die....and embrace the life we want to live. If people are still exalting VP and what he taught despite all the information available....maybe that is who they want to be.
Just a thought...nothing more.
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johniam
quote: i would not allow any children around you and i would warn anybody i knew about the things you have written here.
That's interesting. Just hours ago I was told by several degreed educational professionals that my wife and I are committed, involved parents whom they really appreciate working with, as well as our 3 kids. These people have known us for over 10 years. But you can read a few of my posts, and you know all about me. Nice.
If you don't want feedback, why are you posting?
To be frank, based on what I've seen you write, I wouldn't let you be put in any sort of authority over children either. Do I know all about you? No. But to me your writings suggest you have some broken boundaries when it comes to establishing healthy sexual boundaries toward children, at least in your mind. To this point you refuse to see it in yourself and you throw up defenses in avoidance.
I'm going to step out of this discussion now because I have nothing more to add that hasn't already been said. In the end we stand before the Father and all of us will have to give an account. With that being said, I wish you Godspeed.
Broken arrow: Feedback doesn't have to imply slander. What gives you or anyone else the "authority" to judge me. That's the self righteous attitude that persists to this day I referred to earlier. BTW, two years ago I had a second job as a substitue custodian in our school district. I worked 2 nights a week from 3-11. I have never been screened for a job as thoroughly as this...FBI background check, child abuse background check, you name it. They hired me, and most of my assignments were to elementary schools. I'm 56 years old. Do you think they would have let me anywhere near KIDS if there was anything at all on my record???? You're the ones saying that sex offenders don't just do stuff once, that there's a pattern.
quote: Not my business really, but did it ever strike you as strange when you were in TWI that his other two daughters spent practically no time at all at HQ, and that you hardly heard much about them? Don didn't spend much time there either until he was brought on board.
Don was getting his PHD up to the time they brought him on board (1977) and each of the other daughters was married to a successful man. Karen was involved in editing/proofreading VPs books and Mary's husband, John Summerville, was regularly talking to VP and the way corps. But don't let me stop your witch hunt.
I'm reading a Billy Graham book right now, called 'World aflame' (1965). He had many of the same concerns VP did in pfal. Was BG a good man? Most of you would probably say so. He had access to really famous people that VP never did. I've heard people say that BG never had any scandals associated with him. Idolatry (trinity) is definitely a scandal as far as God is concerned. I've only read the first 3 chspters, but the one thing that sticks out in my mind is that he really bought into psychiatry/psychology, which to me is clearly a counterfeit of the wisdom of God. I do have some respect for BG (he is, after all a Christian whose impact has been felt for decades), but it surprises me that he can't (couldn't) see that psychiatry/psychology is, at best, a generous mouth piece of world wisdom. At worst, it's a scam.
In the bible, people with symptoms of "mental illness" were being attacked by unclean spirits. Jesus din't say thou unclean SYNDROME I command thee come out of him. Nor did he say unclean developmental disorder, he said SPIRIT!! We've all heard people who see devil spirits in everything, but they do actually exist. Psychiatrists/psychologists believe there's no such thing as spirits/ that everything is "all in your mind". That's like taking a knife to a gun fight. All they do is drug people with more damaging and powerful drugs than the pot and acid we all did, which only serves to incapacitate the mind of the patient so the spirit(s) is now limited in what it can get the patient to do. They don't actually cure (remove the cause) the person's problem. The drugs will certainly shorten the person's life. It's a multi billion dollar scam.
These people (psychiatrists and psychologists) actually have enough clout that they're allowed to testify in court as "expert witnesses" about why someone behaves as he/she does. What a joke. Devil must be laughing his rear end off. They might as well have Gomer Pyle testify as an expert witness for the Marine corps. I can see that some of you also buy into this false wisdom. No thanks.
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brainfixed
the very fact that i have a functioning brain.
the way international used this evil tactic you're using to shut up anybody that saw the sin inherent in the way international, and because by the time anybody was deep enough into the way international to see the inherent sin, that means they were also deep enough into the mindset to accept "who are you to judge me?" as a valid way to "think no evil" and all that other pure evil thinking that "calls evil good and good evil".
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skyrider
In the bible, Jesus Christ exposes and casts out unclean/devil spirits. Time and time again, the scriptures illustrate his walk of power over the kingdoms of the world. After Pentecost, the scriptures reference other men who did the same.
YET.......in all wierwille and twi leadership bravado, I never saw or heard one incident of anyone casting out a devil spirit.
Several incidents come to mind while I was on staff.....eight to ten, at least. And, what did I see wierwille do? what did I see martindale do? what did finneg@n do? YELL at the individual, name-calling someone possessed. BUT......No casting out of a spirit. No demonstration of spiritual power.
One 6th corps guy who wierwille and martindale yelled at for some 30 minutes and fired from staff the next day........found out weeks later that he had severe blood sugar anemia.
Another incident, wierwille yelled at an 8th corps guy in regards to "The Tracker" program that they attended. This 8th corps guy raved and raved, in the BRC (to an audience) how incredibly awesome the guy was and his classes. Wierwille went ballistic with rage!!! Wierwille didn't want to play second fiddle to anyone. Wierwille called this 8th corps guy possessed and within five minutes stomped off stage.
I saw many other incidents............
How many were labeled "possessed"......yet? NOTHING.
How many times vpw talked big..........yet? NOTHING.
And, then.......wierwille dies of cancer......a devil spirit?
.
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socks
Maybe there's a Yelling Spirit, or some gene of spiritual DNA that forms the basis for it so that when mutated, a quiet heart and humble mind to work turns....loud.
I jest. I would think the Devil himself would say "SHUDDDDUP!" at some point after an hour of LCM in the Lunch room. Missed all of that, thankfully. I bet a lot of people got good at "gotta go!" back then, eager to get back to work. Inspirational, in it's own way I guess.
I guess such a topic as anyone being "good" is bound to cover a lot of ground. Spirit-za with fries - easy on the catch up!
Colon cleanse next? Now THAT was bad. My colon still wants flowers every year and a card for that one.
But yeah - "embrace the life we want to live."
True, dat.
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excathedra
this brings back so many horrible memories
a young lady trying to tell vp and leadership that her reverend branch leader lady should not be screwing every fella that walked in the twig door
her getting labeled as possessed in a public meeting, etc., etc.
reminds of the crucible
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Kit Sober
I like Forest Gump's mother's definition, "stupid is as stupid does."
Wicked is as wicked does.
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johniam
quote:
YET.......in all wierwille and twi leadership bravado, I never saw or heard one incident of anyone casting out a devil spirit.
I never saw or heard VP on the motor coach. So what. I bet VP cast out more spirits than any psychiatrist ever did :) .
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johniam
This is what can happen on a witch hunt. You get in 'witch hunt mode' and just start accusing everybody in your path of everything under the sun. TWI did this in 1994 with the debt purge, homo purge, and unproductive evil purge. "Pure evil thinking"??? That's got to be another oxymoron to add to the list. Right up there with Cheryl Crow's 'My favorite mistake'.
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skyrider
So now.....you are going to compare the works of VP to psychiatrists?
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waysider
"That's interesting. Just hours ago I was told by several degreed educational professionals that my wife and I are committed, involved parents whom they really appreciate working with, as well as our 3 kids. These people have known us for over 10 years."
Have you told these people yet what a low opinion you have of higher education and the mental health professions?
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johniam
quote: So now.....you are going to compare the works of VP to psychiatrists?
No comparison. As I posted earlier, that would be like comparing an AK47 to a pocket knife.
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waysider
No, John, I believe your analogy is flawed. You, yourself, in this very thread, have spoken in derogatory terms regarding higher education and mental health professionals. Shall I cut and paste those statements for you? Yet, you do an about face and try to use their esteem to bolster your position. Can't have your cake and eat it, too, I'm afraid. This was a common ploy of Dr. (You know he wasn't really a Dr., don't you?) Wierwille. There are multiple examples of this very thing in PLAF (The Wonder Class).
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johniam
Waysider. One reason I don't always respond to your posts is because, IMO, you seem to have a consistent, one dimensional method of processing what people post. I have no use whatsoever for psychotherapy, but that doesn't mean it hasn't helped anyone. While I find the educational system to have its flaws, I still recognize that it's not going anywhere and that it's always going to be a common point of reference in many topics of discussion. I'm certain that educators and psychologists will freely quote scripture, or quote opinions of religious leaders if they think it will support their point, positively or negatively.
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WordWolf
[i was thinking how absolutely shameless the remnant of vpw defenders can get, willing to redefine
terms, to manufacture things, to sweep anything vpw did under a rug while making up faults of others
and magnifying them, all as smoke-screens to try to make their deeds look as evil as vpw's.
Then it hit me- part of this is still "regurgitate anything vpw said." vpw was quite fond of denigrating
any field he did not understand- with the exceptions of any practitioners who were in twi. Then, suddenly,
the field was respectable- and the twi practitioner was called the greatest practitioner in the world.
This happened, among other things, with vpw and the fields of Psychology, Psychiatry, and people like
Tony C, who appeared on the cover of "Heart" magazine and was interviewed for it. vpw didn't understand
Psychology and Psychiatry, so he denigrated them-until Tony C joined twi. BTW, I spoke to Tony a long
time ago. He seemed quite reasonable both as a Christian and as a Psychologist. But twi'ers who never
read that Heart Magazine or never met Tony were still repeating the twi mantra that Psychology was of no
use. It's amazing how many fields of study were useless according to twi. I also heard someone denigrated
people who work on the news.
Outside of twi circles, it's rather shocking that there are Christians who are ready to dismiss entire fields
of Psychology and Psychiatry. It's more shocking when one knows many Christians who practice either, and many
more who have been helped by them. In the last 20-30 years alone, some considerable advances have been made in
Psychiatry. It's shocking how all the people who denigrate Psychiatry don't even know the main difference between
Psychiatry and Psychology.
Most people nowadays, including most Christians, are aware there are some chemical imbalances and occasional
structural problems in the central nervous systems of a minority of people. "Devil spirits?" No, birth defects
and the like. To misdiagnose a problem with someone's biology as "devil spirits" is as sensible as trying to
fix a broken arm with "driving the demon out" or the like. A competent Psychiatrist then attempts to rebalance
the brain chemistry or otherwise correct the biological problem with medication. Sometimes it takes a lot to
get to a solution, sometimes it works pretty soon. Generally, Psychology comes in very handy once the chemicals
are balanced- so the person can learn better coping mechanisms and join the rest of us in productive lives.
How effective can it be? I knew one Christian who seemed 100% normal and not unusual in any way, who was on
psychiatric medication that helped her stay that way. (She seemed more normal than me, certainly.)
As for Psychology being of use or other than "devil possession", it's sad that some people don't know any better
in an educated society like the US. There's plenty of people- adults, children- who are working with a mental
health care professional to help correct problems developing from trauma experienced as an adult, or -more commonly-
as a child, and learning to adjust and move on with their lives. If you had a family member or a friend who'd
survived abuse as a child and was seeing a Psychologist, you'd be a lot slower to denigrate the help they and
thousands of other people get each year.
twi certainly could have used a few Psychologists on staff. With vpw and others inflicting psychological damage
on people, actually having someone who could try to REPAIR the damage would have helped some people, and may have
prevented some suicides of people vpw sent home. Don't forget, it was standard practice for vpw to send anyone
home if they had some sort of psychological problem. Putting people alone on a bus is the opposite of actually
HELPING them. Small wonder some got lost on the way home, or committed suicide.
Trying to make Billy Graham look bad because he lacks vpw's uneducated bias against mental healthcare professionals?
That's an under-educated approach, and a rather clumsy attempt to make the man look as evil as vpw.
Billy Graham conducted himself as a Christian, and made successful efforts to treat his fellow Christians
(and non-Christians) like the Bible says we are supposed to.
If you can't tell the difference between people with unclean spirits and people with psychiatric disorders,
you have no business discussing EITHER. Some Christians can easily tell them apart.
Actually, I've seen non-Christians with no training in Psychology who could tell them apart.
If you think the sole function of medication prescribed by Psychiatrists is to "incapacitate the mind",
then you have a shocking ignorance of what they do. Rather than incapacitate the patient, the goal-
and often it is reached successfully but no medical field is 100% effective- is for the patient to resume
normal activities and be a regular, functioning, contributing member of society.
I've known Christians for whom that was effective. If you want to limit yourself to the lack of knowledge
vpw had on the subject, that's your business, but it's pretty evident to any educated person that it's a
glaring deficiency in your education.
Which, all things considered, is ANOTHER evil thing vpw did. If vpw hadn't ruthlessly condemned the fields
of people who could have helped his victims, more would have gotten help sooner, and fewer would have committed
suicide as a direct or indirect result of their exposure to vpw. Not like he cared- what were a few more
victims to him? He just made sure to label them and say it was their own weakness and "devil spirits"
that killed them, then he went back to making more victims.
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