Not one person EVER who lived to be an adolescent has not had desire for someone they couldn't possibly have an open relationship with.
Not wanting to fight but I would have to argue with that generalisation and guess that you didn't have any sisters to keep you in reality, ha, ha (I mean one where you could have close communication with the opposite sex without weirdness, as I had with a reasonable father and brothers). Not saying you mean immediate family in your sentence, but they're the ones who teach you about the world and how to deal with it.
I calmly told her they married their siblings, that there was no one else around and that incest wasn't a biblical issue until 2000 years later when a man named Lot was incestually raped by each of A 46 year old middle school math teacher recently confessed to 11 counts of statutory sodomy at my kids' middle school. She would tell 12 and 13 year old boys that they needed to come with her to a building owned by the school district but abandoned. She'd drive them there and do oral sex on them. She didn't get ratted out by any of the boys; she said something in passing to another teacher who suspected something and started asking questions and one thing led to another and she got busted. Never did hear what she was sentenced to. If she'd been a male teacher and did that it'd been all over the media. Nice.
Lot of anger here.
Actually, I could find you examples of such women being all over the media.
This has been an interesting thread, though, thanks.
Wierwiile was consistent. He consistently lied, stole, abused women, and belittled anyone who wouldn't smootch his arse.
...So no, Wierwille was not a "good man"...why? because he chose to be a bad man.
I feel sorry for those who do not know the truth about this rat in human form...for those who have read the many threads about him at GreaseSpot and STILL think he's a "good man"...I do not feel sorry for them at all...their ignorance is a deliberate choice...too bad so sad.
I happened to come here to retrieve some old numbers of old friends and saw this and wanted to take a minute to respond.
I am not going to argue with you. For some reason, it seems the PFAL class touched you so deeply that nothing else matters. Perhaps it was life changing. It was for me. It answered many questions (whether those things were called into question later or not). Because of TWI I thought I found stability and a path to my future because what I learned there. And a lot of what I learned was not wrong. The methods taken to bring that information to mewere wrong. It was “work” stolen by one man and presented as “his own.”
So, if you evaluate WHAT you enjoyed rationally, you might need to be indebited (so to speak), to the people who actually worked the scriptures to find those truths…
Joniam, a great lie that I have seen is to have emotional responses to things, which require “logical evaluation.”. I do not know you. But through the years I think I may have seen a little bit of you. And you got into TWI and got answers, found fellowship, got to know God better and left the drug culture for “higher aspirations”. Your life was changed.
Most of us had somewhat similar experiences or we would not have stuck around. I understand the “love” you saw and felt. I “get” the acceptance and the change in your life. Those things are very real. Nobody can or wants to take them away from you.
After, I had an emotional response to what I found in God via PFAL, there was nobody anywhere who could have ever had me leave TWI.
However, you and I were both in the shared experience of “the love of God.” It was great wasn’t it?
But some of us, including me, went further into the programs and commitments TWI had to offer. It was in those programs and those commitments the beautiful “dream” of TWI was exposed as a lie. God was NOT a lie. Those that loved each other with the love of God were real. I am sure you were REAL. So, was I. I believe almost all of us were.
But, your piers have told you repeatedly about the things that occurred deeper in. Things you never saw. And in your shoes, I might be fiercely defending PFAL, VPW and TWI as well. I was fortunate enough to experience VPW’s crap first hand so I was able “to let go.”
I guess it is hard for you because you never saw that TWI. But with your logical mind engaged, past the emotion of PFAL etc. When you read over and over from stellar people who have experienced the “evil” first hand….... It behooves me to understand what must happen in your heart/brain` to seem like you do not get it...
Many men of many generations have had “gifts” of gab, great stage presence, and tremendous leadership ability…. These are very charismatic ~ emotionally charged “gifts”. But they did evil things. If doing evil things, over and over and over again, (and using God’s name to deceive people with your evil deeds) does not MAKE you evil ~ then what does?
Out of the heart comes the issues of life. So, if his “issues of life” were evil what does that say about his heart? The only “good stuff” he presented was STOLEN from other people.
Other than PFAL and twig (~where some people who loved God showed you God’s love~) what, pray tell, did Weirwille DO that makes you think he was a “good” man?
I am to the point, I do not care what anyone thinks here anymore. A beaten dead horse is still dead and this horse is more than a decaying carcass….
I am not trying to be mean, Joniam, I am just curious why you think he was a good man? Instead of defending his bad behaviors by saying that others also had bad behaviors ~ what good behaviors keep you hanging on? And let’s see if they have been addressed. If they have been ~ then it is an exercise in futility for someone like you and someone like me to find ourselves in agreement. It does not mean I do not love you, it just means you will always think like that and I never will….
Proverbs 4:23
Joniam you said...
“God is the one who put the appetite for sexual desire in all of us from creation. Abraham and Sarah were half brother and half sister. Issac and Rebecca were 1st cousins, ditto Jacob and his wives, Leah and Rachel. Amram, Moses' father married his own aunt. But now in the enlightened age we have all these rules. Not one person EVER who lived to be an adolescent has not had desire for someone they couldn't possibly have an open relationship with.
Our culture allows for homosexual relationships, which God condemns. If an older woman wants sex with a younger man she's called a 'cougar' and the spin is always yippee, it's a cougar, aren't they great? But if a man wants sex with younger women, then he's a lecher, a pervert, a dirty old man.”
Jesus Christ obeyed the law of the land incl. paying taxes. In our land, the law is against most of what Weirwille did. Stealing, theft by deception, adultry (ever notice in the 10 commandments adultry is one and divorce is not listed?) incest, rape, and plagerism….
Was he a good man? Or a guy who simply did some good and some evil things? If your answer is yes, I feel bad for you to be locked in "this" and you probably will be for life. But that is your choice... To each his own...
Not one person EVER who lived to be an adolescent has not had desire for someone they couldn't possibly have an open relationship with.
I am not sure what this means, but having a desire and ACTING OUT are two different things.... Weirwille did not merely desire bad things and deal with his desires morally or rationally, he acted on them. For the record, the only one I could not have had an open relationship with was Mick Jaggar and that was only cause he had a thing for Keith Richards.... (kiddin)
Good bye Joniam, good luck in your life. I wish you no harm.... I mean it...
Following that very insightful and compassionate post by Dot (I call her Dottie)...let me say a little more...through music...you see, although I am a compassionate person, I feel that sometimes, the best way to address an issue is to be more "direct"...therefore, I dedicate this song to all those who think that VPW was a "good guy"...
One of the things I always found annoying about vp was all the people that had Way generated pictures of him pressed in their bibles. Being from a Catholic background, I thought, "Holy cards." I thought it rather egotistical of him to replace Jesus Christ in people's bibles.
SoCrates
An example of a Holy card (for those non Catholics):
One of the things I always found annoying about vp was all the people that had Way generated pictures of him pressed in their bibles. Being from a Catholic background, I thought, "Holy cards." I thought it rather egotistical of him to replace Jesus Christ in people's bibles.
SoCrates
Maybe instead of a bathtub Mary on the front lawn...there should be a little bust of VPW sticking out of the lawn with an open bible in his hand...
Why do so many of you keep repeating that I think VP was a ggod man?
quote:No. I've said that VP did good things, not that he was a good man. There's a difference. Nobody is a good man. In our culture sometimes people are called a good person in a specific context if they have a track record of being trustworthy, but we all have the same sin nature we got from Adam. That's why we die; that's why God had to send Jesus.
Broken arrow: The first paragraph was a lead in to the next two; that we basically live in a male bashing culture now and men are treated worse than women, especially in sex situations.
As far as boys being hurt by adult women forcing themselves on them. Never happened to me, but as a young teen I was a paper boy. Part of my route included a hospital. Several doctors lived close to the hospital and their houses were also part of my route. Some of their wives were, uh, nice looking. I used to fantasize about them a lot. If one of them were to have actually tried to seduce me, I probably would have gotten nervous and not been able to get an erection, but it's just different with a guy. I dunno.
I saw a TV interview once with Danny Bonaduce of the Partridge Family. He said when he was 13 an older girl came to the studio looking for David Cassidy, which was very common. But he wasn't there, so the girl looked at Danny and said "COME HERE!" Danny's words were "She made a man out of me. I don't know where you are, but I love you." I don't know what his life as an adult was like. I heard he was a DJ in Chicago and that one day he talked a caller out of killing herself. Also heard he had drug issues. Perhaps he was scarred and was just saying what he thought the interviewer wanted to hear.
Waysider: I've posted many good things he did on this thread alone. He taught many people God's word. People were able to make sense out of the bible for the first time. They no longer had to wonder if they had eternal life. They could read the bible for themselves instead of being spoonfed by a minister once a week. He showed the difference between Christianity and religion. He showed that God didn't make people sick. He showed how we have the ministry of reconciliation. He sent wows out to reach people with God's word. His ministry was a safe haven for people. Thousands of people still value their twi experience. Their lives count, too. If you no longer value it, then you don't.
That reminds me of a funny story. Two weeks before I came to my first twig fellowship I was at a friend's house. This friend is a jazz musician, an atheist, never got high, never drank. Weird combination to be sure. But he was cool about drugs. While I was there a wow was door to door witnessing and knocked on his door. Me and the guy whose house it was were in the kitchen so he answers the door and let the guy come in and sit down on his couch. Then while the wow was witnessing to him I lit up a joint and came in and sat down and just stared at the guy.
The funny part didn't actually unfold until 4 months later, but I've gone door to door before. I NEVER got invited in anybody's house and got to sit down on the couch. This doesn't happen. They may talk to you while you're on their porch or maybe even let you stand in the entrance, but not in the living room. So this wow must've thought that God was opening a door for him. The jazz musician, although an atheist, was willing to talk to people intellectually, but he wasn't going to believe anything. I could tell from the look on the wow's face that he thought the devil sent me in there to quench his witness.
Then 4 months later I met the wow formally at my orientation session for my first pfal class. Boy, did he give me a weird look at first. Maybe you just had to be there.
Broken arrow: The first paragraph was a lead in to the next two; that we basically live in a male bashing culture now and men are treated worse than women, especially in sex situations.
Men treated worse than women? Huh?
As far as boys being hurt by adult women forcing themselves on them. Never happened to me, but as a young teen I was a paper boy. Part of my route included a hospital. Several doctors lived close to the hospital and their houses were also part of my route. Some of their wives were, uh, nice looking. I used to fantasize about them a lot. If one of them were to have actually tried to seduce me, I probably would have gotten nervous and not been able to get an erection, but it's just different with a guy. I dunno.
Different for a guy, huh? Actually that's not true even though a misogynistic society purports that. It is still seduction, it is still abuse, and it still causes emotional scars.
I saw a TV interview once with Danny Bonaduce of the Partridge Family. He said when he was 13 an older girl came to the studio looking for David Cassidy, which was very common. But he wasn't there, so the girl looked at Danny and said "COME HERE!" Danny's words were "She made a man out of me. I don't know where you are, but I love you." I don't know what his life as an adult was like. I heard he was a DJ in Chicago and that one day he talked a caller out of killing herself. Also heard he had drug issues. Perhaps he was scarred and was just saying what he thought the interviewer wanted to hear.
I don't want to guess at what you're trying to say here.
He was a cult leader who lead people away from Jesus Christ.....the absent Christ.
Please....he taught you to read the bible for yourself? He programmed us to read the bible exactly how he wanted us to see it......not for ourselves. What do you think all those cross outs and margin notes and classes were for? The literal according to usage....the present truth....his revelations.....spare me....he spoon fed us a bunch of crap and not just once a week. We got a steady diet of twisted scriptures. Some people will never be able to read the bible again....great legacy.
What a sad joke.
Safe haven? Yeah, I really felt "safe" around many of the men in TWI (not)...and VP....he was famous for a good firm pat on your backside if you were not fast enough. Ask any half way attractive babe who caught his eye.
He had people pimping for him. What a great Christian example huh? He showed porn to young vulnerable starry eyed kids who trusted him.
He lead many people right away from salvation......
Sent out WOWs? He sent young hormonal men and woman to live together in close quarters for a year.. there is a good moral Christian example for you. What do you think was happening in many of those WOW families? He sent people out to sell his class and got others to lead people away from Jesus. From salvation.
Why did TWI have rampant abortion?.....Why do you think he taught that it was okay with God? There are woman who are scarred for life because of that teaching!
Not only did he steal others work....but he stole from really really bad teachers. Most of them have been refuted.
And btw most Christians don't believe God makes people sick....but that he heals....they do however, understand that God is sovereign and not subject to our "believing". God gives us our faith....which is a gift! It is God's will not ours and God's will is that we may be presented blameless......and harmless.....faith is tested....trials refine us. You figure out what that means.
VP embraced the word of faith movement.....threw in some prosperity gospel....and eventually denied the very Lord who bought him.
VP was not a Christian man he was the antithesis of one.
So, this is not about VPW as much as it is about you are sick of “men bashing” by women, and to you this is just another example of that. So, you are defending VPW because he is male not because of all the moggie crap. You looked through his “heap” of a life and picked out a few things that look defendable because you are sick of male bashing….
Joniam, did someone bash you out there in life and it was unwarranted? Or a family member to bring up this type of defense of VPW.
Perhaps, you, your friend or family member were "the recipient" of some underserved “meanness” but that does not imply there are salvageable things about VPW.
I am sure he brushed his teeth in the morning and spoke things like “have a nice day” and perhaps even pat his dog on the head. This does not make someone good or bad. It certainly does not dismiss evil behaviors. Jeffrey Dahlmer kept a job, invited a girl to the prom and from all accounts was gregarious. These were “sociopath” in nature to camouflage what was really going on. He did not do “good things” he did “acceptable things” to hide the unacceptable things ~ evil things ~ which were his true agenda.
If VPW were a woman, as you are abhorrent about male bashing, would you accept HER touching her children, or perhaps touching yours? Stealing your money? Cruel demeaning behaviors? Because she taught the BIBLE? Or would it be easier to recognize these things as EVIL and not search for the redemption, of a few things which seemed to be acceptable, for it is now a woman?
I am asking you to neuter the situation. And take another look at the “actions” from a gender-neutered stance and see if VPW looks a little different then. He used the God, you say you love, to serve his own needs. Kind of like having a person (stranger) find your daughter at school and pretend her mother is in the hospital saying she needs to go with “them” to see her "hurt Mommy". The child thinks she is doing the correct thing, the person seems genuine. The actions? The benign actions look fine, perhaps altruistic. What a nice person to go retrieve your daughter and bring her to your injured wife. Only, the stranger takes a self-serving detour. They never arrive at the hospital, because your wife was never really there, instead steals your daughters’ money, removes her clothing, and touches her as she is screaming to see her “Mommy.”
Many of us were screaming to find God and we got in the car…. I think that invalids (any perceived goodness in) VPW’s methods on how he got us in the car ~ it is WHAT he DID after we got in…. (It was evil and began with evil intentions IMHO.)
I never called VP a good man. I've never called myself a good man. I don't recall that you or any other poster called themselves a good man. Even Jesus didn't like being called a good man...
...I've said that VP did good things, not that he was a good man. There's a difference. Nobody is a good man.
Our "sinful nature" notwithstanding, I completely disagree with this. I am certain that there are many good men and women in this world...decent and pure of heart. I even know some personally.
Also, I was never in TWI but from everything I've heard, this vpw character (and his slimeball successor) were monsters. That they purported to teach the word of God doesn't mean a thing. Heck, pedophile priests supposedly teach the word of God and they belong in jail.
Waysider: I've posted many good things he did on this thread alone. He taught many people God's word. People were able to make sense out of the bible for the first time. They no longer had to wonder if they had eternal life. They could read the bible for themselves instead of being spoonfed by a minister once a week. He showed the difference between Christianity and religion. He showed that God didn't make people sick. He showed how we have the ministry of reconciliation. He sent wows out to reach people with God's word. His ministry was a safe haven for people. Thousands of people still value their twi experience. Their lives count, too. If you no longer value it, then you don't.
He taught God's word or Weirwille's word?
I would think in order to teach the word you would first have to know the word.
God puts people first--as seen in the incident where the apostles were eating corn on the Sabbath. Weirwille and his minions only concern was spreading their doctrine.
Remember, they built a memorial to Weirwille, not a statue of God's love or Christ resurrecting, but to a person who put a stumbling block in how many peoples paths.
Made sense out of the bible? Seems to me I'm even more confused than before. What is abundant life? What is faith? What is love? What are saints? Heck, I don't know anymore.
Sure I know the books and I can spew verse on command, but do they have meaning? No. To me they're like doing a rosery. A prayer I've recited for so many times, the words have lost all meaning.
Difference between Christianity and religion? How do you show the difference between the two by being a religion? Face it, the TWI is a religion, they worship Weirwille. If Weirwille passed gas, it was chisled onto stone tablets and given to us the great unwashed as an enlightened revelation. I'm surprised they didn't try and sell his used toilet paper in the lobby at limb meetings.
Think about it: did Weirwille embody the love of God? Yah, the love of God seduced all those women, right?
Was he able to renew his mind? That's why even though he knew what he was doing was wrong, he continued doing it,right?
Did he show us God's faith in action? Well, he did get laid an awful lot...
You have to look at did the little bit of so called good he did balance the evil he did. I say no. Why? He taught the word. True, but he taught a version of it that set him up to be the monster he was. Make sense out of the bible? Everything the man taught led back to him and how to get what he wanted.
When you think about it its a sweet little deal he maneuvered himself into. He tools around the country in his motorhome, wearing his Way logo jammies snarfing cognac, getting laid like a rockstar, while Gods people are shoveling money to him and trying to figure out how to make their bills while doing his grunt work.
Wow. That was a very angry post, WW. You don't like it when anybody questions your 'moral superiority', do you? You haven't said anything outright OR simple; especially concerning the following...
We all still have eternal life, access to God, peace in our hearts, all that stuff is real! We will be at the gathering together; this hope is still there.
That stuff is needful, not your stupid laundry list of VPs sins, or anyone else's. Christ paid for all that. Even for VP. We are the body of Christ. The mystery. Not just a body of people, a body of time as well. Everybody who gets born again from the day of Pentecost until the return is part of the one body and members in particular. We will be rewarded for all the good we've done, both in twi AND here at GSC. That's gospel, good news. You have nothing but bad news, vanity of vanities, hubris, irrelevant. The way you misrepresent people you could make Jesus into the moral equivalent of a serial rapist if you felt like it. I don't know what you do for spiritual nurture and growth these days, but it's always warm in the body of Christ.
(snip)
First, we have someone who, apparently, didn't read the opening post, he seems to have skimmed it, because
he skipped over the relevant Bible verses. (I'll get back to that.) Possibly that's because he was eager to
slap the "angry" title and the "morally superior" title on a post. Small wonder nobody actually sees any
EVIDENCE of anger in that post. I make a point of waiting a few days at times, or a few hours, to make sure
my posts don't come out of emotion or impulse, but rather of logic.
(Compare the timestamp of the opening post of this thread to the post it refuted. Compare all my responses
with what they responded to, including this one.)
Rather than address my points, John seemed quick to call me emotional, to change the subject, and INSULT
me. ("angry post", "moral superiority", "stupid laundry list", "You have nothing but bad news",
"vanity of vanities", "hubris". He claims I "misrepresent" and could do so to Jesus.
On top of all of that, after spending all that time avoiding the initial post and changing the subject,
he used the word "IRRELEVANT." Since his post actually was the "irrelevant" one
(name-calling is not "relevant" to this thread), it's not without irony John can slap that label on me.
It's an old thing, accusing someone of something the accuser is doing at the time. The Pharisees were
said to have done it to Jesus himself. I'm sure it was an old tactic 2000 years ago.
=====================
As for "misrepresenting", did I "misrepresent" anyone? Did I make any claim about vpw that is not
common knowledge around here? I can provide my sources if anyone missed any of them.
==============================================
I posted this:
"I'll say it outright, and keep it simple.
A) I believe there's overwhelming evidence that vpw was a fraud from the day he first stepped behind a pulpit
(and before that.)
B) I believe he was neither the first nor the last person to defraud the Body of Christ, and that's disgraceful
no matter who does it. (Personally, I'd like some severe penalties to apply, but the laws of the US don't permit
castration for rapists, slow deaths or dismemberments for child molesters, etc.)
C) I believe there's overwhelming evidence that vpw found the best work from the best Christians he could find,
then deceived us all by saying is was from him and God and due to some special covenant between them.
D) I believe that in some cases, vpw taught error he copied from other Christians, and often taught some good or
even great stuff he copied from other Christians.
E) I believe it is harmful and false to carry around illusions that any of that was not true, and to elevate vpw
past the level of "charlatan" and into the auspices of "prophet", "apostle", "man of God", "godly teacher",
and so on. If I heard Charles Manson make an insightful comment about Scripture, I'd thank God for the insight,
but I certainly would not seek to join Manson's group.
F) I believe the truths of Scripture stood before vpw was born, and they abide since his death, and vpw has
nothing to do with that. If Scripture contains Truth, then it is good to learn it and try to understand and
apply it when possible.
G) I believe that- no matter who teaches- it's the responsibility of the Bible student to evaluate what was
said and try to identify and remove the errors inserted by the teacher.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 (King James Version)
21Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 (New American Standard Bible)
21But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;
So:
A) Read Bible, try to apply it: Good thing.
B) Use the Bible to evaluate everything vpw ever said: good thing.
C) Elevate vpw because he sometimes spoke what the Bible said: bad thing.
D) Believe vpw's groundless claims because he sometimes spoke what the Bible said: bad thing.
E) Believe what the Bible says whether or not vpw agreed with it: good thing.
I don't think I can make my positions any simpler than that."
John responded with this:
Wow. That was a very angry post, WW. You don't like it when anybody questions your 'moral superiority', do you? You haven't said anything outright OR simple;
and then promptly changed the subject. My post was not BRIEF, but I never claimed it was.
However, anyone can see it was both OUTRIGHT and STRAIGHTFORWARD, which is exactly what I claimed.
Perhaps John's laboring under a misunderstanding about what the words "outright" or "straightforward"
mean, or thinks that post length is somehow related to either (which it is not, and most of us know this.)
that's twice I see a reference to anger here. First, angry people.. then an angry post..
personally, I didn't read any anger in either case..
johniam.....this is a discussion forum and wordwolf, respectfully, refuted your points in a thoughtful manner. Yet, you are making this personal.
I do not see ww's post as 'very angry'....nor this 'moral superiority' that you reference. Personal attacks often indicate that one is unable to refute the evidence presented and resorts to attacking the individual.
Also, broad generalizations...ie an entire generation....will get you nowhere on this GS site. GS posters have seen that broad brush tactic plenty of times to let it slip by....especially when it denigrates and slanders.
Other posters, not reacting emotionally as John did, do not seem to be seeing the same posts John is seeing.
They seem to see refutation and thoughtfulness, and not personal attacks nor anger.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Well, the last time I checked, I was a woman who joined the Navy!! I love this poster!! Anyhow, to add my few pennies, I think VBW was a sick man!! A few years ago, a woman posted here at the Cafe
waysider
I think the realization they were able to keep so much hidden speaks volumes about just how corrupt and deceptive the whole operation was.
chockfull
"Was vpw a good man?" for God to decide - I don't own the scales of Justice. but you only need to insert one little adjective into that statement to make it one that resounds with a universa
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cara
Not wanting to fight but I would have to argue with that generalisation and guess that you didn't have any sisters to keep you in reality, ha, ha (I mean one where you could have close communication with the opposite sex without weirdness, as I had with a reasonable father and brothers). Not saying you mean immediate family in your sentence, but they're the ones who teach you about the world and how to deal with it.
Actually, I could find you examples of such women being all over the media.
This has been an interesting thread, though, thanks.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Wierwiile was consistent. He consistently lied, stole, abused women, and belittled anyone who wouldn't smootch his arse.
...So no, Wierwille was not a "good man"...why? because he chose to be a bad man.
I feel sorry for those who do not know the truth about this rat in human form...for those who have read the many threads about him at GreaseSpot and STILL think he's a "good man"...I do not feel sorry for them at all...their ignorance is a deliberate choice...too bad so sad.
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Dot Matrix
Joniam:
I happened to come here to retrieve some old numbers of old friends and saw this and wanted to take a minute to respond.
I am not going to argue with you. For some reason, it seems the PFAL class touched you so deeply that nothing else matters. Perhaps it was life changing. It was for me. It answered many questions (whether those things were called into question later or not). Because of TWI I thought I found stability and a path to my future because what I learned there. And a lot of what I learned was not wrong. The methods taken to bring that information to mewere wrong. It was “work” stolen by one man and presented as “his own.”
So, if you evaluate WHAT you enjoyed rationally, you might need to be indebited (so to speak), to the people who actually worked the scriptures to find those truths…
Joniam, a great lie that I have seen is to have emotional responses to things, which require “logical evaluation.”. I do not know you. But through the years I think I may have seen a little bit of you. And you got into TWI and got answers, found fellowship, got to know God better and left the drug culture for “higher aspirations”. Your life was changed.
Most of us had somewhat similar experiences or we would not have stuck around. I understand the “love” you saw and felt. I “get” the acceptance and the change in your life. Those things are very real. Nobody can or wants to take them away from you.
After, I had an emotional response to what I found in God via PFAL, there was nobody anywhere who could have ever had me leave TWI.
However, you and I were both in the shared experience of “the love of God.” It was great wasn’t it?
But some of us, including me, went further into the programs and commitments TWI had to offer. It was in those programs and those commitments the beautiful “dream” of TWI was exposed as a lie. God was NOT a lie. Those that loved each other with the love of God were real. I am sure you were REAL. So, was I. I believe almost all of us were.
But, your piers have told you repeatedly about the things that occurred deeper in. Things you never saw. And in your shoes, I might be fiercely defending PFAL, VPW and TWI as well. I was fortunate enough to experience VPW’s crap first hand so I was able “to let go.”
I guess it is hard for you because you never saw that TWI. But with your logical mind engaged, past the emotion of PFAL etc. When you read over and over from stellar people who have experienced the “evil” first hand….... It behooves me to understand what must happen in your heart/brain` to seem like you do not get it...
Many men of many generations have had “gifts” of gab, great stage presence, and tremendous leadership ability…. These are very charismatic ~ emotionally charged “gifts”. But they did evil things. If doing evil things, over and over and over again, (and using God’s name to deceive people with your evil deeds) does not MAKE you evil ~ then what does?
Out of the heart comes the issues of life. So, if his “issues of life” were evil what does that say about his heart? The only “good stuff” he presented was STOLEN from other people.
Other than PFAL and twig (~where some people who loved God showed you God’s love~) what, pray tell, did Weirwille DO that makes you think he was a “good” man?
I am to the point, I do not care what anyone thinks here anymore. A beaten dead horse is still dead and this horse is more than a decaying carcass….
I am not trying to be mean, Joniam, I am just curious why you think he was a good man? Instead of defending his bad behaviors by saying that others also had bad behaviors ~ what good behaviors keep you hanging on? And let’s see if they have been addressed. If they have been ~ then it is an exercise in futility for someone like you and someone like me to find ourselves in agreement. It does not mean I do not love you, it just means you will always think like that and I never will….
Proverbs 4:23
Joniam you said...
Jesus Christ obeyed the law of the land incl. paying taxes. In our land, the law is against most of what Weirwille did. Stealing, theft by deception, adultry (ever notice in the 10 commandments adultry is one and divorce is not listed?) incest, rape, and plagerism….
Was he a good man? Or a guy who simply did some good and some evil things? If your answer is yes, I feel bad for you to be locked in "this" and you probably will be for life. But that is your choice... To each his own...
I am not sure what this means, but having a desire and ACTING OUT are two different things.... Weirwille did not merely desire bad things and deal with his desires morally or rationally, he acted on them. For the record, the only one I could not have had an open relationship with was Mick Jaggar and that was only cause he had a thing for Keith Richards.... (kiddin)
Good bye Joniam, good luck in your life. I wish you no harm.... I mean it...
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GrouchoMarxJr
Following that very insightful and compassionate post by Dot (I call her Dottie)...let me say a little more...through music...you see, although I am a compassionate person, I feel that sometimes, the best way to address an issue is to be more "direct"...therefore, I dedicate this song to all those who think that VPW was a "good guy"...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPPvSiFLyXA
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So_crates
One of the things I always found annoying about vp was all the people that had Way generated pictures of him pressed in their bibles. Being from a Catholic background, I thought, "Holy cards." I thought it rather egotistical of him to replace Jesus Christ in people's bibles.
SoCrates
An example of a Holy card (for those non Catholics):
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GrouchoMarxJr
Maybe instead of a bathtub Mary on the front lawn...there should be a little bust of VPW sticking out of the lawn with an open bible in his hand...
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So_crates
Or maybe a bust of him with his mouth wide open so it could be used as a bird bath.
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Dot Matrix
Sorry honey, he was known for liking BIG BUSTS....
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GrouchoMarxJr
Good point...so let's make it a big bust of VPW...that way, we can see his beady little eyes more clearly.
OMG!...I think I may have wet myself.
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Dot Matrix
Maybe the bird bath should be exclusive....
The VPW bird bath ~ for all little peckers...
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So_crates
Do I see JAL in line?
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Dot Matrix
:D
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johniam
Why do so many of you keep repeating that I think VP was a ggod man?
quote:No. I've said that VP did good things, not that he was a good man. There's a difference. Nobody is a good man. In our culture sometimes people are called a good person in a specific context if they have a track record of being trustworthy, but we all have the same sin nature we got from Adam. That's why we die; that's why God had to send Jesus.
This says it as well as I can say it.
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waysider
"I've said that VP did good things, not that he was a good man."
OK, Johnny, I'll bite.
What were these good things he did?
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johniam
Broken arrow: The first paragraph was a lead in to the next two; that we basically live in a male bashing culture now and men are treated worse than women, especially in sex situations.
As far as boys being hurt by adult women forcing themselves on them. Never happened to me, but as a young teen I was a paper boy. Part of my route included a hospital. Several doctors lived close to the hospital and their houses were also part of my route. Some of their wives were, uh, nice looking. I used to fantasize about them a lot. If one of them were to have actually tried to seduce me, I probably would have gotten nervous and not been able to get an erection, but it's just different with a guy. I dunno.
I saw a TV interview once with Danny Bonaduce of the Partridge Family. He said when he was 13 an older girl came to the studio looking for David Cassidy, which was very common. But he wasn't there, so the girl looked at Danny and said "COME HERE!" Danny's words were "She made a man out of me. I don't know where you are, but I love you." I don't know what his life as an adult was like. I heard he was a DJ in Chicago and that one day he talked a caller out of killing herself. Also heard he had drug issues. Perhaps he was scarred and was just saying what he thought the interviewer wanted to hear.
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waysider
"we basically live in a male bashing culture now and men are treated worse than women, especially in sex situations."
I'm curious.
What does this statement mean? Can you, perhaps, give a few examples?
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johniam
Waysider: I've posted many good things he did on this thread alone. He taught many people God's word. People were able to make sense out of the bible for the first time. They no longer had to wonder if they had eternal life. They could read the bible for themselves instead of being spoonfed by a minister once a week. He showed the difference between Christianity and religion. He showed that God didn't make people sick. He showed how we have the ministry of reconciliation. He sent wows out to reach people with God's word. His ministry was a safe haven for people. Thousands of people still value their twi experience. Their lives count, too. If you no longer value it, then you don't.
That reminds me of a funny story. Two weeks before I came to my first twig fellowship I was at a friend's house. This friend is a jazz musician, an atheist, never got high, never drank. Weird combination to be sure. But he was cool about drugs. While I was there a wow was door to door witnessing and knocked on his door. Me and the guy whose house it was were in the kitchen so he answers the door and let the guy come in and sit down on his couch. Then while the wow was witnessing to him I lit up a joint and came in and sat down and just stared at the guy.
The funny part didn't actually unfold until 4 months later, but I've gone door to door before. I NEVER got invited in anybody's house and got to sit down on the couch. This doesn't happen. They may talk to you while you're on their porch or maybe even let you stand in the entrance, but not in the living room. So this wow must've thought that God was opening a door for him. The jazz musician, although an atheist, was willing to talk to people intellectually, but he wasn't going to believe anything. I could tell from the look on the wow's face that he thought the devil sent me in there to quench his witness.
Then 4 months later I met the wow formally at my orientation session for my first pfal class. Boy, did he give me a weird look at first. Maybe you just had to be there.
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waysider
"His ministry was a safe haven for people."
WTF?? Have you been paying any attention at all?
1. He didn't have a "ministry", he was a cult figurehead.
2. Have you even noticed that people routinely found themselves in less than safe situations?
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Broken Arrow
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geisha779
He was a cult leader who lead people away from Jesus Christ.....the absent Christ.
Please....he taught you to read the bible for yourself? He programmed us to read the bible exactly how he wanted us to see it......not for ourselves. What do you think all those cross outs and margin notes and classes were for? The literal according to usage....the present truth....his revelations.....spare me....he spoon fed us a bunch of crap and not just once a week. We got a steady diet of twisted scriptures. Some people will never be able to read the bible again....great legacy.
What a sad joke.
Safe haven? Yeah, I really felt "safe" around many of the men in TWI (not)...and VP....he was famous for a good firm pat on your backside if you were not fast enough. Ask any half way attractive babe who caught his eye.
He had people pimping for him. What a great Christian example huh? He showed porn to young vulnerable starry eyed kids who trusted him.
He lead many people right away from salvation......
Sent out WOWs? He sent young hormonal men and woman to live together in close quarters for a year.. there is a good moral Christian example for you. What do you think was happening in many of those WOW families? He sent people out to sell his class and got others to lead people away from Jesus. From salvation.
Why did TWI have rampant abortion?.....Why do you think he taught that it was okay with God? There are woman who are scarred for life because of that teaching!
Not only did he steal others work....but he stole from really really bad teachers. Most of them have been refuted.
And btw most Christians don't believe God makes people sick....but that he heals....they do however, understand that God is sovereign and not subject to our "believing". God gives us our faith....which is a gift! It is God's will not ours and God's will is that we may be presented blameless......and harmless.....faith is tested....trials refine us. You figure out what that means.
VP embraced the word of faith movement.....threw in some prosperity gospel....and eventually denied the very Lord who bought him.
VP was not a Christian man he was the antithesis of one.
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Dot Matrix
Jomiam
So, this is not about VPW as much as it is about you are sick of “men bashing” by women, and to you this is just another example of that. So, you are defending VPW because he is male not because of all the moggie crap. You looked through his “heap” of a life and picked out a few things that look defendable because you are sick of male bashing….
Joniam, did someone bash you out there in life and it was unwarranted? Or a family member to bring up this type of defense of VPW.
Perhaps, you, your friend or family member were "the recipient" of some underserved “meanness” but that does not imply there are salvageable things about VPW.
I am sure he brushed his teeth in the morning and spoke things like “have a nice day” and perhaps even pat his dog on the head. This does not make someone good or bad. It certainly does not dismiss evil behaviors. Jeffrey Dahlmer kept a job, invited a girl to the prom and from all accounts was gregarious. These were “sociopath” in nature to camouflage what was really going on. He did not do “good things” he did “acceptable things” to hide the unacceptable things ~ evil things ~ which were his true agenda.
If VPW were a woman, as you are abhorrent about male bashing, would you accept HER touching her children, or perhaps touching yours? Stealing your money? Cruel demeaning behaviors? Because she taught the BIBLE? Or would it be easier to recognize these things as EVIL and not search for the redemption, of a few things which seemed to be acceptable, for it is now a woman?
I am asking you to neuter the situation. And take another look at the “actions” from a gender-neutered stance and see if VPW looks a little different then. He used the God, you say you love, to serve his own needs. Kind of like having a person (stranger) find your daughter at school and pretend her mother is in the hospital saying she needs to go with “them” to see her "hurt Mommy". The child thinks she is doing the correct thing, the person seems genuine. The actions? The benign actions look fine, perhaps altruistic. What a nice person to go retrieve your daughter and bring her to your injured wife. Only, the stranger takes a self-serving detour. They never arrive at the hospital, because your wife was never really there, instead steals your daughters’ money, removes her clothing, and touches her as she is screaming to see her “Mommy.”
Many of us were screaming to find God and we got in the car…. I think that invalids (any perceived goodness in) VPW’s methods on how he got us in the car ~ it is WHAT he DID after we got in…. (It was evil and began with evil intentions IMHO.)
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soul searcher
Our "sinful nature" notwithstanding, I completely disagree with this. I am certain that there are many good men and women in this world...decent and pure of heart. I even know some personally.
Also, I was never in TWI but from everything I've heard, this vpw character (and his slimeball successor) were monsters. That they purported to teach the word of God doesn't mean a thing. Heck, pedophile priests supposedly teach the word of God and they belong in jail.
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So_crates
He taught God's word or Weirwille's word?
I would think in order to teach the word you would first have to know the word.
God puts people first--as seen in the incident where the apostles were eating corn on the Sabbath. Weirwille and his minions only concern was spreading their doctrine.
Remember, they built a memorial to Weirwille, not a statue of God's love or Christ resurrecting, but to a person who put a stumbling block in how many peoples paths.
Made sense out of the bible? Seems to me I'm even more confused than before. What is abundant life? What is faith? What is love? What are saints? Heck, I don't know anymore.
Sure I know the books and I can spew verse on command, but do they have meaning? No. To me they're like doing a rosery. A prayer I've recited for so many times, the words have lost all meaning.
Difference between Christianity and religion? How do you show the difference between the two by being a religion? Face it, the TWI is a religion, they worship Weirwille. If Weirwille passed gas, it was chisled onto stone tablets and given to us the great unwashed as an enlightened revelation. I'm surprised they didn't try and sell his used toilet paper in the lobby at limb meetings.
Think about it: did Weirwille embody the love of God? Yah, the love of God seduced all those women, right?
Was he able to renew his mind? That's why even though he knew what he was doing was wrong, he continued doing it,right?
Did he show us God's faith in action? Well, he did get laid an awful lot...
You have to look at did the little bit of so called good he did balance the evil he did. I say no. Why? He taught the word. True, but he taught a version of it that set him up to be the monster he was. Make sense out of the bible? Everything the man taught led back to him and how to get what he wanted.
When you think about it its a sweet little deal he maneuvered himself into. He tools around the country in his motorhome, wearing his Way logo jammies snarfing cognac, getting laid like a rockstar, while Gods people are shoveling money to him and trying to figure out how to make their bills while doing his grunt work.
SoCrates
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WordWolf
I've noticed a consistent pattern here. Let's see if anyone else has noticed this about this thread so far.
1) Most people have been posting mostly logically, with little emotion.
2) Most people have been taking contrary points of view with Johniam, disagreeing with them.
3) John has responded first by calling every dissenter as "angry" or said their posts have "anger",
and said the entire thread was to "call him out".
(Actually, the thread was to address one idea, which is both in its title and is the subject of a
lengthy first post:
What is a good man? What is an evil man? Where did vpw fall in this?
4) For someone complaining that emotion has been all over the posts of others, John's posts have
been consistently the most emotional ones on the thread.
5) John's attempts to refute the subject of the thread and the other posters seem to center around
either ignoring the Bible verses posted and saying that there is no such thing as a "good man",
and CHANGING THE SUBJECT and GOING OFF-TOPIC into "how men have it tough" "how society has a double-
standard about men", and so on. Either he doesn't realize this has nothing to do with what we
were talking about (which speaks badly to his ability to discuss as an adult here) or he knows full
well this is another subject and desperately wants us to get off the initial subject.
Since that's been a consistent pattern whenever someone wanted to say
"vpw was a great guy because I learned some good stuff",
I suspect it's more of the latter than the former.
(That, and the former is an axe John has to grind for the rest of his life, since it's seemed to
pop up all over threads it had little or nothing to do with.
===========================================================
First, we have someone who, apparently, didn't read the opening post, he seems to have skimmed it, because
he skipped over the relevant Bible verses. (I'll get back to that.) Possibly that's because he was eager to
slap the "angry" title and the "morally superior" title on a post. Small wonder nobody actually sees any
EVIDENCE of anger in that post. I make a point of waiting a few days at times, or a few hours, to make sure
my posts don't come out of emotion or impulse, but rather of logic.
(Compare the timestamp of the opening post of this thread to the post it refuted. Compare all my responses
with what they responded to, including this one.)
Rather than address my points, John seemed quick to call me emotional, to change the subject, and INSULT
me. ("angry post", "moral superiority", "stupid laundry list", "You have nothing but bad news",
"vanity of vanities", "hubris". He claims I "misrepresent" and could do so to Jesus.
On top of all of that, after spending all that time avoiding the initial post and changing the subject,
he used the word "IRRELEVANT." Since his post actually was the "irrelevant" one
(name-calling is not "relevant" to this thread), it's not without irony John can slap that label on me.
It's an old thing, accusing someone of something the accuser is doing at the time. The Pharisees were
said to have done it to Jesus himself. I'm sure it was an old tactic 2000 years ago.
=====================
As for "misrepresenting", did I "misrepresent" anyone? Did I make any claim about vpw that is not
common knowledge around here? I can provide my sources if anyone missed any of them.
==============================================
I posted this:
"I'll say it outright, and keep it simple.
A) I believe there's overwhelming evidence that vpw was a fraud from the day he first stepped behind a pulpit
(and before that.)
B) I believe he was neither the first nor the last person to defraud the Body of Christ, and that's disgraceful
no matter who does it. (Personally, I'd like some severe penalties to apply, but the laws of the US don't permit
castration for rapists, slow deaths or dismemberments for child molesters, etc.)
C) I believe there's overwhelming evidence that vpw found the best work from the best Christians he could find,
then deceived us all by saying is was from him and God and due to some special covenant between them.
D) I believe that in some cases, vpw taught error he copied from other Christians, and often taught some good or
even great stuff he copied from other Christians.
E) I believe it is harmful and false to carry around illusions that any of that was not true, and to elevate vpw
past the level of "charlatan" and into the auspices of "prophet", "apostle", "man of God", "godly teacher",
and so on. If I heard Charles Manson make an insightful comment about Scripture, I'd thank God for the insight,
but I certainly would not seek to join Manson's group.
F) I believe the truths of Scripture stood before vpw was born, and they abide since his death, and vpw has
nothing to do with that. If Scripture contains Truth, then it is good to learn it and try to understand and
apply it when possible.
G) I believe that- no matter who teaches- it's the responsibility of the Bible student to evaluate what was
said and try to identify and remove the errors inserted by the teacher.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 (King James Version)
21Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 (New American Standard Bible)
21But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;
So:
A) Read Bible, try to apply it: Good thing.
B) Use the Bible to evaluate everything vpw ever said: good thing.
C) Elevate vpw because he sometimes spoke what the Bible said: bad thing.
D) Believe vpw's groundless claims because he sometimes spoke what the Bible said: bad thing.
E) Believe what the Bible says whether or not vpw agreed with it: good thing.
I don't think I can make my positions any simpler than that."
John responded with this:
and then promptly changed the subject. My post was not BRIEF, but I never claimed it was.
However, anyone can see it was both OUTRIGHT and STRAIGHTFORWARD, which is exactly what I claimed.
Perhaps John's laboring under a misunderstanding about what the words "outright" or "straightforward"
mean, or thinks that post length is somehow related to either (which it is not, and most of us know this.)
==========================================================
Other posters, not reacting emotionally as John did, do not seem to be seeing the same posts John is seeing.
They seem to see refutation and thoughtfulness, and not personal attacks nor anger.
At least until John posted, possibly.
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