Was vpw a good man?

[WordWolf]

(snip)

I don't think VP was an evil man. I think he did evil things. I think he was part of an entire generation of men who thought women existed for their pleasure. Lot of men who were bosses who hired secretaries for something other than just stenography. Did Esther sleep her way to the top? Some would think so. I think VP really WAS called of God to teach his word. Around age 50 his farm began to host many young women at a time. He's not supposed to notice?

(snip)

If we are to determine whether a particular man is a good man, an evil man, or anything else,

it is important to first understand our terms.

What is good? What is evil? What does it mean to be a "good man"? What does it mean to be an "evil man"?

http://easydamus.com/alignment.html

"Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit.

"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient."

"Being good or evil can be a conscious choice. For most people, though, being good or evil is an attitude that one recognizes but does not choose."

===================================

A wise Grandfather from the Cherokee First-People's Nation, whose grandson came to him with anger at a schoolmate who had done him an injustice, said...

"Let me tell you a story. I too, at times, have felt a great hate for those that have taken so much, with no sorrow for what they do. But hate wears you down, and does not hurt your enemy. It is like taking poison and wishing your enemy would die. I have struggled with these feelings many times."

He continued, "It is as if there are two wolves inside me; one is good and does no harm. He lives in harmony with all around him and does not take offense when no offense was intended. He will only fight when it is right to do so, and in the right way."

"But the other wolf, ah! He is full of anger. The littlest thing will set him into a fit of temper. He fights everyone, all the time, for no reason. He cannot think because his anger and hate are so great. It is hard to live with these two wolves inside me, for both of them try to dominate my spirit."

The boy looked intently into his Grandfather's eyes and asked, "Which wolf wins Grandfather?"

The Grandfather solemnly said "The one I feed."

(author unknown)

======================================

If we considered these as guidelines, then it would be easy to evaluate people. We would evaluate their actions and

see which direction they aligned. If we look at a man who debases or destroys men or women, who flies into

rages when little things don't go his way, who debases or uses women for his "fun", who concerns himself little

with THEIR dignities, only his own, who expects others to make personal sacrifies but never shows them how by

sacrificing himself (like, say, telling some people to give up smoking while simultaneously being a heavy smoker,

who is not troubled at the idea of hurting others or their deaths, only with whether or not they obeyed him,

who shows some compassion at some times but seems devoid of it when people are hurt or suffering,

then we know we're looking at a man whose attitude reflects evil and not good.

That's really not that hard to determine, when you can look at enough of a man's life and see how he treats

people both in public and when "the cameras are off."

=====================================================

All right.

Let's say you don't like that answer. Let's say that's not the answer you want to hear.

So, you'll look for a pretext to invalidate that result.

In this case, you're going to hide behind Scripture.

"Those definitions are not from the Bible, so I'm going to say they don't count."

All right.

So, what does the Bible say on this subject of "good man"?

Luke 6:45.

The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.

Proverbs 12:2

A good man will obtain favor from the LORD, But He will condemn a man who devises evil.

Micah 7:2

The godly person has perished from the land, And there is no upright person among men. All of them lie in wait for bloodshed; Each of them hunts the other with a net.

John 7: 12

There was much grumbling among the crowds concerning Him; some were saying, "He is a good man"; others were saying, "No, on the contrary, He leads the people astray."

So, what does this tell us?

A) A man's speech will reveal what's in his heart. If he sees nothing wrong with hurting others with his words,

with using his words to deceive, then that is what is in his heart, and that is an evil man with an evil heart.

B) A man who devises evil is the opposite of a good man, and the LORD disapproves of him. By "devising" evil, we are

not talking of someone who saw a near occasion of sin and committed it in the heat of the moment. We are speaking of a man

who has sat down and worked out a plan that facilitated evil- that worked out how to do evil and get away with it.

(Like, say, establshimg a network of people to approach young women, contriving excuses to being alone with them,

having arranged to be alone with them in a place that's been furnished with a bed, having taught that physical affection

is not sinful so they're less likely to protest, having liquor on hand to lower their inhibitions,

and possibly drugging them if that doesn't work,

then having a network of people to monitor her afterwards,

and destroying her reputation or driving her to suicide if she seems likely to report it.

That takes a lot of planning, and considerable shopping.)

C) The opposite of a godly person and an upright person is someone who lies in wait to take advantage of others,

and enjoys himself at their expense.

D) Finally, there's good men, and there are men who lead people astray. When we see someone who teaches others

that they can engage in sinful behavior, that sinning is ok "if they can handle it", and so on,

we can see we're dealing with a man who is NOT good.

=========================================================

(snip)

I don't think VP was an evil man. I think he did evil things. I think he was part of an entire generation of men who thought women existed for their pleasure. Lot of men who were bosses who hired secretaries for something other than just stenography. Did Esther sleep her way to the top? Some would think so. I think VP really WAS called of God to teach his word. Around age 50 his farm began to host many young women at a time. He's not supposed to notice?

(snip)

The thing is, when we look at both what people say, and what Scripture says, the man's institutionalizing

and premeditation of evil mean that the evil things he purposed, did and planned show that he WAS an evil man.

There's plenty of men vpw's age who didn't view women as combination slave and concubine, and many still don't.

Being a boss and hiring a secretary with the intent to pressure her to have sex is both a crime and reprehensible.

Was vpw called of God to teach His Word?

His own testimony was that he considered it as one of 3 possible careers- along with music and business,

and chose ministry as his career path. When he was at it for A YEAR, he was ready to give up.

When he was at it LATER, he AGAIN was ready to give up.

He was WORKING his CAREER of ministry for over a year, having preached for over a year, and having completed

his entire time in ministry education, WITHOUT BELIEVING THE BIBLE WAS GOD'S WORD.

That's what he HIMSELF said. He didn't BELIEVE THE BIBLE WAS GOD'S WORD

when he decided to go into ministry, or when he began his career.

Small wonder he was so discouraged early on.

He had spent years in preparation, and STILL was unprepared to believe God's Word or seek answers for

people there. In fact, the decision to go into ministry was made while he was still maintaining his

reputation as a bully and a show-off with his local community.

He NEVER had respect for the authority of other men of God. He spoke well of them-to the point he could

get something from them. Otherwise, he chafed against any sort of rules or authority.

And once he got what he wanted from another man of God- like Stiles- he either stopped talking about them

entirely (he deleted Stiles' name from the White Book) - or like Leonard- he dropped out of sight and hoped

they'd never find out he'd stolen their material.

This man found a book from Stiles- then he reproduced Stiles book, said it was his own, and charged people

retail for Stiles' book. This man found a class from Leonard- then he reproduced Leonard's class, and

said it was his own, and charged people retail for Leonard's class.

Those are not good deeds, those are evil deeds. The man did not choose ministry for good, and did not

use morally correct actions once he was a minister- nor did he use the Bible as a moral guide for his own

actions. He also used his previous denomination to pay his salary and give him a title while he was

building a ministry of his own on the side- he was running pfal classes for about a decade before he

left- and that as all outside his denomination and never actually TO his congregation.

"Around age 50 his farm began to host many young women at a time. He's not supposed to notice?"

Amazing how factually incorrect this view is!

The man found out there was a ministry of young folks in an area where free sex and orgies were done-

and rushed over there to meet the young folks.

He SPECIFICALLY ASKED one of them DETAILS of ORGIES, and attempted to use HOLY SCRIPTURE to say

that ORGIES were ok with God. (The same rap he laid on women since then-God's ok with sex outside marriage, etc.)

He recruited the young folk and did his best to get them onto the ministry property ("his farm", remember,

was MINISTRY PROPERTY. He signed it over to the ministry so he could avoid paying taxes while getting the

full use of the property.) When the young women got there, he had already arranged for offices and

"personal buses" with beds in them. Doesn't sound at all like the man you described.

You described a man who woke up one morning, and found himself surrounded by sexually-generous hippychicks.

We've seen, in detail, that vpw went out of his way to find and get sexually-generous hippychicks if at all

possible, and set things up for maximum opportunities to try to have sex with any of them he could convince

to do so.

We've also heard from women who had zero interest in sex with him- he did his best to convince them to do so

and drugged some when they refused.

And, to answer your question-and carry it even FURTHER to make my point-

if a RESPONSIBLE MARRIED MAN OF GOD suddenly finds himself hip-deep in young women, and some of them begin

to show interest in having sex with him,

he's supposed to put up some really strong boundaries rather than agree to sin.

He's supposed to make sure he's not in private with them- Billy Graham's managed that for a lifetime-

and satisfy himself and his wife in conjugal relations with his wife if he wants sex,

and teach the group in general to NOT sin and have sex outside of marriage.

That's all manageable-if one is determined to do what God says to do, and NOT do what God says

NOT to do.

Joseph didn't have sex with Potiphar's wife because God said it was wrong. When she cornered him,

he ran off and refused to sin, no matter how easy it was, and no matter how young and hormone-driven

he was.

You can't convince me a RESPONSIBLE, GOOD man of God who's 50 years old and married will not be able

to restrain his sex impulses IF HE WANTS TO.

And, again, vpw didn't even find himself in this situation- he ORCHESTRATED this situation.

He "DEVISED EVIL." And you're pretending he just woke up one day and found an entire sin-structure

waiting.

That's your privilege, but it's hardly in harmony with reality.

[skyrider]

You can't convince me a RESPONSIBLE, GOOD man of God who's 50 years old and married will not be able

to restrain his sex impulses IF HE WANTS TO.

And, again, vpw didn't even find himself in this situation- he ORCHESTRATED this situation.

He "DEVISED EVIL." And you're pretending he just woke up one day and found an entire sin-structure

waiting.

That's your privilege, but it's hardly in harmony with reality.[/b]

Thanks WW

To this day.....there are still wierwille-defenders who are indoctrinated with this ilk. And, some of them haven't been to a twi event in decades.

[TrustAndObey]

Next thing you know, Hitler wasn't an evil man either. I mean, he was the ruler of a country who like many thought the nation he ruled was there for his own pleasure.. Lots of non-Germans and empty gas chambers, and he's not suppose to notice? I mean, rather than adding to the unemployment rate, he was able to give all Germans a job. Just gave them a few bullets and something to aim at. Look at that, no more jobless folks.

:confused: :confused:

[socks]

To resnip the quote:

I don't think VP was an evil man. I think he did evil things. I think he was part of an entire generation of men who thought women existed for their pleasure. Lot of men who were bosses who hired secretaries for something other than just stenography. Did Esther sleep her way to the top? Some would think so. I think VP really WAS called of God to teach his word. Around age 50 his farm began to host many young women at a time. He's not supposed to notice?

The events, facts and issues around what VPW did or didn't do with women other than his wife is a topic of it's own but some degree of honesty, intellectually and emotionally, has to be at the foundation or discussion is useless. Still, persistence has it's virtue I guess....

His farm didn't host anyone, he did. Your statement disconnects the events from the reality as if VPW was an observer of something that occurred, an innocent bystander to a population increase or something. People didn't go there that never knew it existed, they arrived there with an expectation related to The Way and VPW and I think most of us, a lot of us anyway related that to the efforts of learning the bible and participating in some form or fashion in and with the Way ministry.

Now - I was there too and know all kinds of people, all ages, sex, backgrounds, interests and intentions showed up. Some intents better than others. The mix of people and influences were diverse and not all were interested in learning anything about the bible or God and more interested in the activity, the action, the buzz and mixes of all of the above over time. That's human nature and the nature of how society flows.

"an entire generation of men who thought women existed for their pleasure. ".........

Oh come on. Please. Gimme a break. Stop it. Get oudda here. Go-waaaan, beadit. No no no no no no no no no no no no. No. Uh uh. No way. Not. Ixnay on at-thay. That dog won't bark and ain't gonna move if you don't kick it.

No.

Did I say no?

Somewhere I hear a distant refrain......."I wanna be a man o' God like you, Sir...." Harve, hit it.

A product of his times? A look at that period historically will no doubt show up the many 1,000's of dirt bags of all stripes who ran under the radar for lack of information and transparency. Lots of RC priests playing spin the bottle with altar boys too. Much bad, then as always.

I can't continue, I'm going to laugh up a lung here. Carry on. PLEASE drop that line of thinking in relation to any discussion of VPW though as it will not attract serious discourse and I'm not intending to trash VPW anymore than anyone else but I'd only end up being cruel and unkind drilling into that particular line of thinking as it's so.........well, it's vulnerable to say the least.

[Catcup]

To resnip the quote:

I don't think VP was an evil man. I think he did evil things. I think he was part of an entire generation of men who thought women existed for their pleasure. Lot of men who were bosses who hired secretaries for something other than just stenography. Did Esther sleep her way to the top? Some would think so. I think VP really WAS called of God to teach his word. Around age 50 his farm began to host many young women at a time. He's not supposed to notice?

An "entire generation"? This generation of which you speak is part of what for good reason has been called "The Greatest Generation." My parents are of that generation, and of VPs "generation". VP is simply proof that not everyone in that generation was "Great".

However, not everyone of that generation objectified women, cheated on their wives, or slept their way to the top. My Dad and Mom have been faithfully married to each other for over sixty years, raised three good kids, and have four good grandkids and their first great grandchild.

My Dad, unlike VP, served valiantly in WWII, and crawled across Europe on his belly to guarantee the freedom you've enjoyed in your own generation. He has lived an honest life, and gave an honest day's work for an honest day's pay to the same corporation for over thirty years.

So did my Mom. She probably won "employee of the month" for a whole year's worth of months over the span of her service. And she did it honestly without "sleeping her way to the top" or kissing anyone's arse. And for that matter, the same could be said of every one of my aunts and uncles. Not a bad egg in the bunch.

Don't excuse the behavior of one bad person by soiling the entire generation with the same filth.

And BTW you can "notice" and even "appreciate" a young woman without believing you have the right to help yourself to her.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Catcup

[So_crates]

My Dad, unlike VP, served valiantly in WWII, and crawled across Europe on his belly to guarantee the freedom you've enjoyed in your own generation. He has lived an honest life, and gave an honest day's work for an honest day's pay to the same corporation for over thirty years.

This is a bit off topic and I'm sorry. But it needs to be said.

Catcup, next time you speak to your dad would you please tell him I said thank you for serving. Thank him for the sacrifices he made to preserve my freedoms.

SoCrates

Edited January 18, 2011 by So_crates

[Catcup]

This is a bit off topic and I'm sorry. But it needs to be said.

Catcup, next time you speak to your dad would you please tell him I said thank you for serving. Thank him for the sacrifices he made to preserve my freedoms.

SoCrates

Will do.

[excathedra]

what what what?

johnny yam you said this recently?

listen -- you can't be a reverend man of god and deceive young (or old) women and tell them god told you he wants them to heal you from sexual abuse and will teach you the way of a man with a maiden

it's just wrong -- it's downright evil

you can't just commit evil and still be a good man

you can't intentionally tell a girl you're called by god to HEAL her

do you see what i mean

it's so much more than an "accidental" i don't know "i think you're cute" or whatever people get in trouble for nowadays

it's just F******D up

i'll write more when i calm down

i'm from a generation or family who excuse priests from molesting little boys !!!!!

i've always been the type that can forgive ANYONE

but i'm tired of that nonsense

do you see what i mean???????????

ps. i'm not playing god here. he can forgive to the uttermost anyone he likes

i'm not even talking about forgiveness

i'm talking about f'd up ness

[excathedra]

am i making sense here?

look, even a woman girl threw herself at him, he was still responsible to -- be a good man

BUT HE DIDN'T EVEN DO THAT! I NEVER THREW MYSELF AT HIM!!!! I RAN AWAY SO MANY TIMES!!!!!

I ONLY ENDED UP "WITH" HIM WHEN I WAS DRINKING WITH HIM ON THE COACH

AND I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT HAPPENED UNTIL I VIEWED IT FROM THE CEILING

oh man, you've all heard this all before

and in the morning

[waysider]

Here's a question for you, John.

Did VPW ever rape you?

(Not talking about spiritually. I mean sexually.)

Would it change your perspective if he had?

Edited January 19, 2011 by waysider

[Ham]

I dunno Excie.. some don't seem to get it..

if mr, or mrs IAM woke up with a manogawd up their private parts..

maybe they'd get it..

in a spiritual sense that is the case here though.

I don't know if I would call it "worse"..

twenty, thirty, forty years later.. and *he(?) is still up their rear..

yeah, its worse..

[excathedra]

i have no idea if esther slept her way to the top

i do know some girls who felt privileged to be called to the coach to be with the man of god

if that sonofabich man of god was a good man, he would have told some young ladies that he aappreciated their admiration but that he was their pastor or something

is that too much to ask?

[waysider]

"Wierwille is still up their rear."

followed quickly by this:

:(

Edited January 19, 2011 by waysider

[excathedra]

if you touch my kid, you die

that's where i'm today

but i didn't know that then

i'm not mad at j yam

i just want to explain

and i don't need scripture for this argument, you know ?

[Ham]

No, its not..

[Ham]

so where do we go from here..

we have people who *really* didn't ask for this..

human beings.

personally, I didn't ask for this either..

sorry, I shouldn't say much more.

ah yes.

so at the end of the semester.. I still need Math 632.

Yeah, wierwille is still up their rear end..

sad, yes.

[Ham]

I had a "savior"..

offered me Math 632..

and now the illusion dissolves..

where do we go from here..

so what do I do..

I drop back from Math 632, to Math 593..

well.. what's another semester, if I can pull it off..

hope this makes sense to somebody here..

[waysider]

Makes you wonder if that, too, took place----I mean at the leadership level---know what I mean?

I mean, how many years did it go on in the RC organization before it came to light?

[Ham]

all I want is..

no, not just to have some fun..

what do I want..

a friggin master's degree..

It all was just designed to be plain friggin hard..

no, I'm not complaining..

if everybody in the stinking world could have it, it wouldn't be worth a whole heck of a lot..

[waysider]

I know there are documented cases of it at lower levels---even prison sentences---but I meant with the inner circle, top dog guys.

[Ham]

ha! that should be the sentence.. to grad school...

[waysider]

Well, maybe someday, some guy will come forward with a revelation that will shock us, once again. Then somebody else will probably step in and say something like, 'Oh, he was just showing them what to expect on the colon cleanse. And think of all the good that was wrought by 'the cleanse'."

Edited January 19, 2011 by waysider

[Ham]

shock? well.. they keep trying that and all..

shock politicks..

shock talk shows..

maybe its just evolution..

things seem to be getting harder, one month after the last..

but I had a dream when I was young.. it was a mountain of pennies, dimes and quarters.. all I could carry away..

so I will never starve, but I really don't see how I can ever be rich..

it was a dream..

anybody have a similar dream?

[waysider]

Well, I won the lottery once---sorta.

I was in a lotto pool at work, with several other people. Our ticket hit for $1,000. We sent the office temp to cash it in at lunch and she never came back.

But that wasn't a dream. :(

Edited January 19, 2011 by waysider

[Ham]

Sorry, I don't know what to say..

I don't know how to describe all of this.. but when I was very young, I saw it..

it might just be "nuts"..

but there was a literal pile of money in a dream..

but it was all small denominations..

what is this?

not enough to get rich, by any means..

there is one person I would like to ask about this dream..

probably won't happen..