Wierwille framed the issues. With business-like savvy, wierwille envisioned his product, pfal classes, being sold all around the country. The class has a re-occurring imprint, time and time again: people lack knowledge and need to be led.
By tweaking biblical truths and Christianity ever-so-slightly......pfal graduates are left with Wierwille as the teacher and he will lead them forward. Remember the exclamation point at the end of pfal: Stand on the Word (pfal) that you were taught, don't allow anyone to talk you out of it, and write THE TEACHER.
Anyone who has ever sat in a MLM promo can testify how marketing strategy works. The premise is set and all visuals and testimonies convey how 'life-changing' the product is. No time for delay......act today. And, with immediate counsel and follow-up, the product is re-enforced over and over. Sound familiar?
And.....when one distances himself from the constant bombardment of pfal, it becomes clear how it was marketed. Sure there was some low-hanging fruit (truths) in pfal. But rather than keep stretching for the higher fruit, where Christ is lord & mediator between God and man.....the rules and traditions of man (twi) lead to a laboring in vain.
Brain: God wants you to be happy; to feel good about yourself. It's not pretend. It doesn't matter how you feel or what you just did; you can always ask God for His help. You're his TREASURE!
Way & Sky: God's power is not a scam. Having holy spirit inside, being able to pray perfectly and with the understanding, knowing that you're going to heaven. All that stuff is real. Who cares how it is marketed?
Way & Sky: God's power is not a scam. Having holy spirit inside, being able to pray perfectly and with the understanding, knowing that you're going to heaven. All that stuff is real. Who cares how it is marketed?
Please forgive my bluntness.
That's an absolute crock. No one is trying to tell you God's power is a scam. Don't even bother to put it on the back-burner; just take that mess off the stove completely.
Are you seriously telling me that you are not bothered, knowing women were raped, people committed suicide, people died for lack of appropriate medical care, babies were aborted, families were torn apart because of
The Way? The intellectual property of people like Stiles, Bullinger, Leonard and others was stolen and used to promote a blatant lie (that it hadn't been known for 2,000 years)? No problem. Just as long as you, John, can speak in tongues. Who cares how it was marketed?
Hey! Who cares how crack cocaine is marketed? It makes people happy.
Johniam, you said, "Who cares how it was marketed?"
I do.
I care that the multi-level marketing system cares more about dollars and numbers than it does about the people who actually take the course and sell the course.
I was watching the story of another MLM scheme the other night, that of the personal power guru James Arthur Ray. He teaches the "power of attraction," bringing what you want to yourself by how you act, think, and feel. (very much like the "law of believing.") The guy took people from a free "public explanation" of his method, encouraged people to make a quick decision to invest in his course, then drew along those who wanted to learn even more to sign up for his personal training where he would push everyone to their limits. (Sound familiar?) The end of the personal training involved a sweat lodge, where he encouraged people to ignore their body signals and endure the heat. Three people died.
But what I found most significant was the interview with one of the people who had attended. They showed him unable to pay his bills because he had spent so much on classes. But when they asked him if he would attend more of Ray's classes, he said "yes." In spite of it resulting in the death of three people? he was asked. In spite of not being able to make ends meet? Yes, he said, because his life was so much better.
I dunno.. I have a real issue with any kind of spirituality for sale. I don't think one can "market" spirituality.. it turns into poisonous snake oil the very moment the greasy price tag finds itself attached..
So.... You justify the shenanigans by saying it led to your ability to speak in tongues. Suppose you were to find out that everything you learned about speaking in tongues was wrong. Then what do you have? ...besides a hollow feeling in the pit of your stomach.
Suppose you were to find out that what we called "speaking in tongues" was really glossolalia, something that has been practiced by Christians and non_Christians alike for thousands of years....even pre-dating the time of Christ. Maybe all those so-called benefits of S.I.T. are really for something they were doing in the first century that is not the same as glossolalia. Then what? Suppose speaking in tongues really IS perfect prayer..... but what you've been doing isn't really "speaking in tongues" ? Then what?
John, you've been on Greasespot since 2002. I've been gone from here for quite awhile, but here you are still saying the same thing: "I don't much care what happened to them, 'cuz I can speak in tongues."
I'm going to say this one time -- not for you, because I really doubt that you want to listen. But because there are people out there wondering if, as long as they got born again, filled with holy spirit, speaking in tongues, if it didn't matter that some got hurt.
I Corinthians 13:1ff -- you know what it says.
The love of God means that I would have gladly given up having "the proof in the senses realm" if I could have taken away somebody else's abuse. Lives were broken for PFAL. Hearts were hurt. And you, John, are also a victim of PFAL, because you are so enamored with what you received that you missed seeing the greatest thing of all: love.
Actually, Shaz, I've been posting since 2000. Waydale closed down not long after that deposition where LCM got the boot; Sept. I think. GSC had already been operating. I took 3 years off and resumed posting a little over a month ago.
Isaiah 8:12 - ...neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.
I'm not afraid of your accusations that I don't love, or that SIT isn't SIT, or that God's word has to be filtered into "intellectual property". You're the ones who don't get it. You're the ones who've been tampered with.
PFAL exposed the scam of denominational religion. Calling themselves Christian, yet promoting a god who wants people to be sick and poor, who wants people to go to church their whole lives never knowing if they're going to heaven or not, or if their departed loved ones are in heaven or not, whose will is for every bad thing possible to happen to His people to make them humble. That's the god that pfal delivered many from. That's the god who kept many people away from Jesus Christ and his accomplished works. PFAL exposed all that. So they ganged up on him and called him a cult.
Did you know that more Christians have been killed by other Christians than by all the gladiators and Roman emperors put together? Cain killed Abel, too. The adversary likes sewing discord among bretheren. You find out that somebody's a "cult" from 2 places: church media, where the issue is doctrinal, like JCING, and mainstream media, where the issue is "mind control". But the mainstream media thinks ALL Christianity is mind control. They're not ready to admit that just yet, but they're happy to repeat the accusations of stooge Christians who accuse other Christians of wrongdoing just to protect their OWN assets. Did you notice that twi is not high on the cult lists now that they've splintered? What a coincidence.
Waysider, are you not bothered that US history includes running Indians off land they had occupied? That we made slaves of black people? That it took this long for women to be allowed to make certain contributions to society? Yet, you're still an American, right? You have no plans to expatriate to anywhere? You know that you had no say or control in how the above mentioned things happened, or how our tax money is being used today, right?
Well, if your conscience allows you to still be an American in spite of the black eyes in our history, then my conscience allows me to still be thankful that I crossed paths with twi.
Waysider, are you not bothered that US history includes running Indians off land they had occupied? That we made slaves of black people? That it took this long for women to be allowed to make certain contributions to society? Yet, you're still an American, right? You have no plans to expatriate to anywhere? You know that you had no say or control in how the above mentioned things happened, or how our tax money is being used today, right?
John
These questions are all completely irrelevant to the subject being discussed so there is no point in discussing them at the moment.
The simple fact being stressed here is that VPW took John 10:10 out of context, misinterpreted it and misrepresented its meaning for the furtherance of his own agendas, which were dishonest, at best.
You say you have been reading GSC for 10 years. And you still don't underatand the seriousness of plagiarism?
Regarding the exposition of organized religion: TWI, itself, was/is an organized religion. Have you not figured that out yet?
what TWi was selling itself as and what it really was were two different things.
VP refined his product as he went along... feeding off of the angst of we the disenfranchised youth of the time. What TWI morphed into under Craig was not anything so different from VP. Just more angry and more out in the open
When you look at the bigger picture of how VP built TWI and his whole life and look at it through the teachings he made and the teachings he choose to take from others and cobble together into his take on what GOD wazs saying in the bible... it changes everything.
For me... there were red flags or rather there were questions I had but I set them aside to wait and see... I went to a teaching at gunnison where VP spoke and he was carrying on about dividing from your family if they didn't become a part of the WAY... my radar was going off all kinds at that point.
I decided to go WOW for me (yep I was very selfish ... I wanted to become more spiritual in my own walk with God)
When I went to ROA '79 there were some older people there who had been part of Weirwilles ministry from his very begginings... Their whole family was involved with TWI. It made me stop llistening to that voice trying to tell me something was not right. I thought these are adults they wouldn't be here if there was something wrong with TWI... ( I was a foolish girl of 19 but I figured tehy were adults they would have a better clue)
ILt took me a coup;le of years and becoming A spouse corps to really start to see what TWI was teaching to start to really wonder if I should be there.
Even still I never knew the whole picture just bits and pieces.
I am the first person to give leeway and recognize that people are human and not perfect but when you really stop and analyze what TWI was selling and what VP was living in his life and how he and we were comporting ourselves and line it up with what Christ was telling us to do in our lives... well they just didn't line up did they.
Christ was about following God's commandments HE did not say to throw them out he said that the greated comandment was to love God first and then your self and in doing that you would be following the comandments... Christ did not say well teh more you know the word the more you can break the commandments, Because you have the spiritual chops and you can handle it. He was about considering others and bringing pwople to an understanding of how we needed to be kind to each other and work together.
What ever a church is or does is about how the people in it work together to help each other and help their fellow man... getting the bible right isn't realy about knowing every jot and tittle it is about recognizing that the books of the bible were written by people who wanted to share their experiences trying to walk with God... and when you sotp trying to make it about some legalistic mumbo jumbo and look at what they each really were trying to say you realize it is about how we treat each other.
Maybe in the beggining VP had some well meaning purpose; who knows, but it seems to me that from the very beggning of his ministry he was trying to break the commandments and twist the bible to make it okay to break the rules. I realize you are now going to say so did David but when you read the story of David you see at the end that he admitted his wrong doing repented and brought himself back to the commandments in humility.
I believe when you look at the bible and what all the different stories and parables say you see that they are saying this.. If you make the commandments part of your life and try to live your life respectful of your family and friends and all the people in your community you will find a peace and happiness.
I stopped trying to reconcile all those little discrepancies and to look at what the bigger picture was.
Brain: God wants you to be happy; to feel good about yourself. It's not pretend. It doesn't matter how you feel or what you just did; you can always ask God for His help. You're his TREASURE!
Way & Sky: God's power is not a scam. Having holy spirit inside, being able to pray perfectly and with the understanding, knowing that you're going to heaven. All that stuff is real. Who cares how it is marketed?
I don't really have a horse in this race....I could care less what VP or PFAL has to say anymore.....but this and your other post has intrigued me. Sure, God wants us to be happy. Funny thing about that....joy....is not going to be complete or full unless it is in Him......would you agree? If we are seeking that happiness in the abundance of this life then we are not going to find the complete joy in Him. Make sense? Chasing our tail? Wouldn't a loving God, who declares that all creation is subject to futility, strip away that which hinders us from seeking Him? I would hope so.... Especially if we are seeking that material abundance. So, maybe if we really start to examine our faith.....we do see loving acts from God in lack of abundance. Do you understand what I am trying to say?
Joy(happiness) is complete in Him. Creation is subject to futility......things can get in the way.......a loving God helps us find Him.
The prosperity gospel .....which was around long before VP oddly marketed it in PFAL......dangles the carrot of fulfillment, abundance and wealth without ever delivering the reality. That is because the reality is Him.
God wants us to feel good about ourselves? I am pretty sure Jesus said....
"Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.25 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"
Do you ever wonder why VP didn't start the class with this verse? Or this one Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
It is because he was selling you something.....a dream....a goal.....Paul had the abundant life according to VP's standards.....BEFORE he met Christ. Paul's life went from being at the top of his game to being hungry, thirsty, beaten, shipwrecked, imprisoned and eventually executed. Do you think if Paul was in VP's congregation he might have looked at him and said "You need the abundant life buddy" Or is Jesus own example not sufficient?
VP looked around his congregation and I believe what he actually saw.....was the work of the Lord in the lives of His people. Not always pretty, or pleasant, or easy. I think VP rejected God and embraced the prosperity gospel...which BTW is exactly what the serpent sold Eve.
I think VP rejected God and embraced the prosperity gospel...which BTW is exactly what the serpent sold Eve.
Yeah, the prosperity gospel is more of the same self-indulgence of mankind. The "you-are-righteous-now-no-matter-what-you-do" gospel and lust gospel didn't lag far behind in vpw's twi.
You say you have been reading GSC for 10 years. And you still don't underatand the seriousness of plagiarism?
This would seem to be a slam-dunk.
More interesting is that he hasn't noticed or read all the evidence that many have posted here.
I've mentioned before that my ex-Way friend sent me some PDFs of Weirwille books for me to read. Luckily, I found this forum before I wasted my time. After reading about the man and what he did, I did a permanent "shift-delete" on all copies so that none would remain on my hard drive. The man has zero credibility as far as I'm concerned.
quote: The simple fact being stressed here is that VPW took John 10:10 out of context, misinterpreted it and misrepresented its meaning for the furtherance of his own agendas, which were dishonest, at best.
************************************
That's your opinion.
quote: And you still don't underatand the seriousness of plagiarism?
***********************************
If it's God's word, then plagiarism is irrelevant. No matter what may happen in a manmade court of law, God does not share your outrage. Even if a court decides music is plagiarized, there may be a financial settlement, but all copies of the plagiarized music are still legal to enjoy. Led Zeppelin was sued by Willie Dixon for 'Whole lotta love'. They used 2 of his songs on the 1st album giving him credit, but Dixon proved in court that Whole lotta love was stolen from one of his songs. It was called House full of love or something like that; it had many of the same lyrical hooks like you need schoolin' and gonna give you every inch of my love and such. Dixon won a large cash settlement over this, but how many rock fans have boycotted LZ? How many radio stations have? How many people even care? VP reached thousands of people with pfal that never would've been reached by the people he supposedly stole from and the so called marketing that he did was why? He never said that God's people shouldn't adapt their methods to the conditions and the times. You really think God is going to have a problem with that? I don't.
quote: Regarding the exposition of organized religion: TWI, itself, was/is an organized religion.
****************************
Reread my post. I didn't say pfal exposed organized religion; Jesus did organized religion. He sent them out 2 by 2, the 12 and the 70. That's organized. I said pfal exposed the scam of denominational religion at that time. Here it is...
quote: PFAL exposed the scam of denominational religion. Calling themselves Christian, yet promoting a god who wants people to be sick and poor, who wants people to go to church their whole lives never knowing if they're going to heaven or not, or if their departed loved ones are in heaven or not, whose will is for every bad thing possible to happen to His people to make them humble. That's the god that pfal delivered many from. That's the god who kept many people away from Jesus Christ and his accomplished works. PFAL exposed all that. So they ganged up on him and called him a cult.
Organized religion is no different than organized anything. It can do good or evil. I'm not saying VP is innocent; I'm saying he did good things, too.
PFAL exposed the scam of denominational religion. Calling themselves Christian, yet promoting a god who wants people to be sick and poor, who wants people to go to church their whole lives never knowing if they're going to heaven or not, or if their departed loved ones are in heaven or not, whose will is for every bad thing possible to happen to His people to make them humble. That's the god that pfal delivered many from. That's the god who kept many people away from Jesus Christ and his accomplished works. PFAL exposed all that. So they ganged up on him and called him a cult.
How so? I don't remember the methodists promoting a god who wanted people to be sick and poor..
they just didn't seem entirely sure who/what God is/was.. but what's wrong with a few undefined terms?
"promoting" is I really think the whole issue here.
can you "promote" the Almighty?
I mean.. what kind of promotion do you think you can give Him?
ah. maybe you mean promote as in.. what? How, or in what manner do you suggest you are "promoting" him?
suggesting the existence of?
Defining?
just a few questions..
communication is much easier if we agree on a few terms..
see.. eventually you will have to come to terms with the concept that there are people, not much unlike you, who suffer, etc. etc.. and it really isn't their first choice here..
quote: The simple fact being stressed here is that VPW took John 10:10 out of context, misinterpreted it and misrepresented its meaning for the furtherance of his own agendas, which were dishonest, at best.
************************************
That's your opinion.
No, that's not my opinion, John, that's simply a fact. If you will take the time to honestly study John 10:10 in the context in which it is written, you will see that it is not at all about what Wierwille claimed it to be.
quote: And you still don't underatand the seriousness of plagiarism?
***********************************
If it's God's word, then plagiarism is irrelevant. No matter what may happen in a manmade court of law, God does not share your outrage. Even if a court decides music is plagiarized, there may be a financial settlement, but all copies of the plagiarized music are still legal to enjoy. Led Zeppelin was sued by Willie Dixon for 'Whole lotta love'. They used 2 of his songs on the 1st album giving him credit, but Dixon proved in court that Whole lotta love was stolen from one of his songs. It was called House full of love or something like that; it had many of the same lyrical hooks like you need schoolin' and gonna give you every inch of my love and such. Dixon won a large cash settlement over this, but how many rock fans have boycotted LZ? How many radio stations have? How many people even care? VP reached thousands of people with pfal that never would've been reached by the people he supposedly stole from and the so called marketing that he did was why? He never said that God's people shouldn't adapt their methods to the conditions and the times. You really think God is going to have a problem with that? I don't.
Once again, John, these points you have raised, concerning music, are irrelevant to the discussion.
Plagiarism is not only unethical, it's against the law. So, when Wierwille claimed that he was the author of receiving the holy spirit today, he was not only acting in a dishonest fashion, unbecoming of a Man of God, he was doing something he should have well known to be outside the limits of the law. He plagiarized and lied about it. I have a hard time reconciling the concept of a God who is all love condoning lying and thievery.
quote: Regarding the exposition of organized religion: TWI, itself, was/is an organized religion.
****************************
Reread my post. I didn't say pfal exposed organized religion; Jesus did organized religion. He sent them out 2 by 2, the 12 and the 70. That's organized. I said pfal exposed the scam of denominational religion at that time. Here it is...
quote: PFAL exposed the scam of denominational religion. Calling themselves Christian, yet promoting a god who wants people to be sick and poor, who wants people to go to church their whole lives never knowing if they're going to heaven or not, or if their departed loved ones are in heaven or not, whose will is for every bad thing possible to happen to His people to make them humble. That's the god that pfal delivered many from. That's the god who kept many people away from Jesus Christ and his accomplished works. PFAL exposed all that. So they ganged up on him and called him a cult.
.
It matters little to me whether or not you recognize that The Way was/is just another organized religion. It is what it is and was what it was....a cult.... and a mediocre one at that.
Organized religion is no different than organized anything. It can do good or evil. I'm not saying VP is innocent; I'm saying he did good things, too.
Al Capone did good things, as well. Does that excuse the evil things he did?
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waysider
And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto Herr Victoid, son of Erma, son of Ernst, brother of Rueben, brother of Hairylegs, father of J.P. Puffenstuff , grandfather of the anointed messiah who wil
shazdancer
The "abundant life" was the carrot before the horse. We were drawn in with the promise of power and abundance. Those were synonymous with the list on the green card, "more harmony in the home," and
waysider
John
First
No one here suggested that God wants people to be poor or sick-----that's a moot point.
Second
Whether you realize it or not, The Way was organized as a multi-level-marketing entity.
Money, as a general rule, only traveled in one direction-----to HQ.
This may help explain why they are currently sitting on assets worth approximstely 55 million dollars.
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skyrider
Could it be....
Wierwille framed the issues. With business-like savvy, wierwille envisioned his product, pfal classes, being sold all around the country. The class has a re-occurring imprint, time and time again: people lack knowledge and need to be led.
By tweaking biblical truths and Christianity ever-so-slightly......pfal graduates are left with Wierwille as the teacher and he will lead them forward. Remember the exclamation point at the end of pfal: Stand on the Word (pfal) that you were taught, don't allow anyone to talk you out of it, and write THE TEACHER.
Anyone who has ever sat in a MLM promo can testify how marketing strategy works. The premise is set and all visuals and testimonies convey how 'life-changing' the product is. No time for delay......act today. And, with immediate counsel and follow-up, the product is re-enforced over and over. Sound familiar?
And.....when one distances himself from the constant bombardment of pfal, it becomes clear how it was marketed. Sure there was some low-hanging fruit (truths) in pfal. But rather than keep stretching for the higher fruit, where Christ is lord & mediator between God and man.....the rules and traditions of man (twi) lead to a laboring in vain.
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johniam
Brain: God wants you to be happy; to feel good about yourself. It's not pretend. It doesn't matter how you feel or what you just did; you can always ask God for His help. You're his TREASURE!
Way & Sky: God's power is not a scam. Having holy spirit inside, being able to pray perfectly and with the understanding, knowing that you're going to heaven. All that stuff is real. Who cares how it is marketed?
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Ham
assuming that "God's power is not a scam.."
I would suggest that da victoid sold you something you already had..
not unlike selling a pass, to cross da bridge to Manhattan any time your heart desires to..
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Ham
maybe we could get the victors to strike up a emotional tune..
tears start flowing in my eyes as I speak.. sob...
*I'm selling a Bridge...*
*across da divide...*
*the tickets are cheap*..
*just $9.95*...
*do do do doooo*..
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waysider
Please forgive my bluntness.
That's an absolute crock. No one is trying to tell you God's power is a scam. Don't even bother to put it on the back-burner; just take that mess off the stove completely.
Are you seriously telling me that you are not bothered, knowing women were raped, people committed suicide, people died for lack of appropriate medical care, babies were aborted, families were torn apart because of
The Way? The intellectual property of people like Stiles, Bullinger, Leonard and others was stolen and used to promote a blatant lie (that it hadn't been known for 2,000 years)? No problem. Just as long as you, John, can speak in tongues. Who cares how it was marketed?
Hey! Who cares how crack cocaine is marketed? It makes people happy.
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shazdancer
Johniam, you said, "Who cares how it was marketed?"
I do.
I care that the multi-level marketing system cares more about dollars and numbers than it does about the people who actually take the course and sell the course.
I was watching the story of another MLM scheme the other night, that of the personal power guru James Arthur Ray. He teaches the "power of attraction," bringing what you want to yourself by how you act, think, and feel. (very much like the "law of believing.") The guy took people from a free "public explanation" of his method, encouraged people to make a quick decision to invest in his course, then drew along those who wanted to learn even more to sign up for his personal training where he would push everyone to their limits. (Sound familiar?) The end of the personal training involved a sweat lodge, where he encouraged people to ignore their body signals and endure the heat. Three people died.
But what I found most significant was the interview with one of the people who had attended. They showed him unable to pay his bills because he had spent so much on classes. But when they asked him if he would attend more of Ray's classes, he said "yes." In spite of it resulting in the death of three people? he was asked. In spite of not being able to make ends meet? Yes, he said, because his life was so much better.
Think about it.
Shaz
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Ham
I dunno.. I have a real issue with any kind of spirituality for sale. I don't think one can "market" spirituality.. it turns into poisonous snake oil the very moment the greasy price tag finds itself attached..
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waysider
So.... You justify the shenanigans by saying it led to your ability to speak in tongues. Suppose you were to find out that everything you learned about speaking in tongues was wrong. Then what do you have? ...besides a hollow feeling in the pit of your stomach.
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waysider
Suppose you were to find out that what we called "speaking in tongues" was really glossolalia, something that has been practiced by Christians and non_Christians alike for thousands of years....even pre-dating the time of Christ. Maybe all those so-called benefits of S.I.T. are really for something they were doing in the first century that is not the same as glossolalia. Then what? Suppose speaking in tongues really IS perfect prayer..... but what you've been doing isn't really "speaking in tongues" ? Then what?
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shazdancer
John, you've been on Greasespot since 2002. I've been gone from here for quite awhile, but here you are still saying the same thing: "I don't much care what happened to them, 'cuz I can speak in tongues."
I'm going to say this one time -- not for you, because I really doubt that you want to listen. But because there are people out there wondering if, as long as they got born again, filled with holy spirit, speaking in tongues, if it didn't matter that some got hurt.
I Corinthians 13:1ff -- you know what it says.
The love of God means that I would have gladly given up having "the proof in the senses realm" if I could have taken away somebody else's abuse. Lives were broken for PFAL. Hearts were hurt. And you, John, are also a victim of PFAL, because you are so enamored with what you received that you missed seeing the greatest thing of all: love.
Shaz
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johniam
Wow. There's a lot of angry people here.
Actually, Shaz, I've been posting since 2000. Waydale closed down not long after that deposition where LCM got the boot; Sept. I think. GSC had already been operating. I took 3 years off and resumed posting a little over a month ago.
Isaiah 8:12 - ...neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.
I'm not afraid of your accusations that I don't love, or that SIT isn't SIT, or that God's word has to be filtered into "intellectual property". You're the ones who don't get it. You're the ones who've been tampered with.
PFAL exposed the scam of denominational religion. Calling themselves Christian, yet promoting a god who wants people to be sick and poor, who wants people to go to church their whole lives never knowing if they're going to heaven or not, or if their departed loved ones are in heaven or not, whose will is for every bad thing possible to happen to His people to make them humble. That's the god that pfal delivered many from. That's the god who kept many people away from Jesus Christ and his accomplished works. PFAL exposed all that. So they ganged up on him and called him a cult.
Did you know that more Christians have been killed by other Christians than by all the gladiators and Roman emperors put together? Cain killed Abel, too. The adversary likes sewing discord among bretheren. You find out that somebody's a "cult" from 2 places: church media, where the issue is doctrinal, like JCING, and mainstream media, where the issue is "mind control". But the mainstream media thinks ALL Christianity is mind control. They're not ready to admit that just yet, but they're happy to repeat the accusations of stooge Christians who accuse other Christians of wrongdoing just to protect their OWN assets. Did you notice that twi is not high on the cult lists now that they've splintered? What a coincidence.
Waysider, are you not bothered that US history includes running Indians off land they had occupied? That we made slaves of black people? That it took this long for women to be allowed to make certain contributions to society? Yet, you're still an American, right? You have no plans to expatriate to anywhere? You know that you had no say or control in how the above mentioned things happened, or how our tax money is being used today, right?
Well, if your conscience allows you to still be an American in spite of the black eyes in our history, then my conscience allows me to still be thankful that I crossed paths with twi.
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newlife
I thought that John 10:10 was talking about material abundance the way that VP talked about it too.
But, when I reread it after leaving, I decided that it was talking about eternal life....had nothing to do with material abundance at all.
My Personal take on it.....
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waysider
John
These questions are all completely irrelevant to the subject being discussed so there is no point in discussing them at the moment.
The simple fact being stressed here is that VPW took John 10:10 out of context, misinterpreted it and misrepresented its meaning for the furtherance of his own agendas, which were dishonest, at best.
You say you have been reading GSC for 10 years. And you still don't underatand the seriousness of plagiarism?
Regarding the exposition of organized religion: TWI, itself, was/is an organized religion. Have you not figured that out yet?
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leafytwiglet
what TWi was selling itself as and what it really was were two different things.
VP refined his product as he went along... feeding off of the angst of we the disenfranchised youth of the time. What TWI morphed into under Craig was not anything so different from VP. Just more angry and more out in the open
When you look at the bigger picture of how VP built TWI and his whole life and look at it through the teachings he made and the teachings he choose to take from others and cobble together into his take on what GOD wazs saying in the bible... it changes everything.
For me... there were red flags or rather there were questions I had but I set them aside to wait and see... I went to a teaching at gunnison where VP spoke and he was carrying on about dividing from your family if they didn't become a part of the WAY... my radar was going off all kinds at that point.
I decided to go WOW for me (yep I was very selfish ... I wanted to become more spiritual in my own walk with God)
When I went to ROA '79 there were some older people there who had been part of Weirwilles ministry from his very begginings... Their whole family was involved with TWI. It made me stop llistening to that voice trying to tell me something was not right. I thought these are adults they wouldn't be here if there was something wrong with TWI... ( I was a foolish girl of 19 but I figured tehy were adults they would have a better clue)
ILt took me a coup;le of years and becoming A spouse corps to really start to see what TWI was teaching to start to really wonder if I should be there.
Even still I never knew the whole picture just bits and pieces.
I am the first person to give leeway and recognize that people are human and not perfect but when you really stop and analyze what TWI was selling and what VP was living in his life and how he and we were comporting ourselves and line it up with what Christ was telling us to do in our lives... well they just didn't line up did they.
Christ was about following God's commandments HE did not say to throw them out he said that the greated comandment was to love God first and then your self and in doing that you would be following the comandments... Christ did not say well teh more you know the word the more you can break the commandments, Because you have the spiritual chops and you can handle it. He was about considering others and bringing pwople to an understanding of how we needed to be kind to each other and work together.
What ever a church is or does is about how the people in it work together to help each other and help their fellow man... getting the bible right isn't realy about knowing every jot and tittle it is about recognizing that the books of the bible were written by people who wanted to share their experiences trying to walk with God... and when you sotp trying to make it about some legalistic mumbo jumbo and look at what they each really were trying to say you realize it is about how we treat each other.
Maybe in the beggining VP had some well meaning purpose; who knows, but it seems to me that from the very beggning of his ministry he was trying to break the commandments and twist the bible to make it okay to break the rules. I realize you are now going to say so did David but when you read the story of David you see at the end that he admitted his wrong doing repented and brought himself back to the commandments in humility.
I believe when you look at the bible and what all the different stories and parables say you see that they are saying this.. If you make the commandments part of your life and try to live your life respectful of your family and friends and all the people in your community you will find a peace and happiness.
I stopped trying to reconcile all those little discrepancies and to look at what the bigger picture was.
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geisha779
I don't really have a horse in this race....I could care less what VP or PFAL has to say anymore.....but this and your other post has intrigued me. Sure, God wants us to be happy. Funny thing about that....joy....is not going to be complete or full unless it is in Him......would you agree? If we are seeking that happiness in the abundance of this life then we are not going to find the complete joy in Him. Make sense? Chasing our tail? Wouldn't a loving God, who declares that all creation is subject to futility, strip away that which hinders us from seeking Him? I would hope so.... Especially if we are seeking that material abundance. So, maybe if we really start to examine our faith.....we do see loving acts from God in lack of abundance. Do you understand what I am trying to say?
Joy(happiness) is complete in Him. Creation is subject to futility......things can get in the way.......a loving God helps us find Him.
The prosperity gospel .....which was around long before VP oddly marketed it in PFAL......dangles the carrot of fulfillment, abundance and wealth without ever delivering the reality. That is because the reality is Him.
God wants us to feel good about ourselves? I am pretty sure Jesus said....
"Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"
Do you ever wonder why VP didn't start the class with this verse? Or this one Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
It is because he was selling you something.....a dream....a goal.....Paul had the abundant life according to VP's standards.....BEFORE he met Christ. Paul's life went from being at the top of his game to being hungry, thirsty, beaten, shipwrecked, imprisoned and eventually executed. Do you think if Paul was in VP's congregation he might have looked at him and said "You need the abundant life buddy" Or is Jesus own example not sufficient?
VP looked around his congregation and I believe what he actually saw.....was the work of the Lord in the lives of His people. Not always pretty, or pleasant, or easy. I think VP rejected God and embraced the prosperity gospel...which BTW is exactly what the serpent sold Eve.
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skyrider
Yeah, the prosperity gospel is more of the same self-indulgence of mankind. The "you-are-righteous-now-no-matter-what-you-do" gospel and lust gospel didn't lag far behind in vpw's twi.
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soul searcher
This would seem to be a slam-dunk.
More interesting is that he hasn't noticed or read all the evidence that many have posted here.
I've mentioned before that my ex-Way friend sent me some PDFs of Weirwille books for me to read. Luckily, I found this forum before I wasted my time. After reading about the man and what he did, I did a permanent "shift-delete" on all copies so that none would remain on my hard drive. The man has zero credibility as far as I'm concerned.
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johniam
quote: The simple fact being stressed here is that VPW took John 10:10 out of context, misinterpreted it and misrepresented its meaning for the furtherance of his own agendas, which were dishonest, at best.
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That's your opinion.
quote: And you still don't underatand the seriousness of plagiarism?
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If it's God's word, then plagiarism is irrelevant. No matter what may happen in a manmade court of law, God does not share your outrage. Even if a court decides music is plagiarized, there may be a financial settlement, but all copies of the plagiarized music are still legal to enjoy. Led Zeppelin was sued by Willie Dixon for 'Whole lotta love'. They used 2 of his songs on the 1st album giving him credit, but Dixon proved in court that Whole lotta love was stolen from one of his songs. It was called House full of love or something like that; it had many of the same lyrical hooks like you need schoolin' and gonna give you every inch of my love and such. Dixon won a large cash settlement over this, but how many rock fans have boycotted LZ? How many radio stations have? How many people even care? VP reached thousands of people with pfal that never would've been reached by the people he supposedly stole from and the so called marketing that he did was why? He never said that God's people shouldn't adapt their methods to the conditions and the times. You really think God is going to have a problem with that? I don't.
quote: Regarding the exposition of organized religion: TWI, itself, was/is an organized religion.
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Reread my post. I didn't say pfal exposed organized religion; Jesus did organized religion. He sent them out 2 by 2, the 12 and the 70. That's organized. I said pfal exposed the scam of denominational religion at that time. Here it is...
quote: PFAL exposed the scam of denominational religion. Calling themselves Christian, yet promoting a god who wants people to be sick and poor, who wants people to go to church their whole lives never knowing if they're going to heaven or not, or if their departed loved ones are in heaven or not, whose will is for every bad thing possible to happen to His people to make them humble. That's the god that pfal delivered many from. That's the god who kept many people away from Jesus Christ and his accomplished works. PFAL exposed all that. So they ganged up on him and called him a cult.
Organized religion is no different than organized anything. It can do good or evil. I'm not saying VP is innocent; I'm saying he did good things, too.
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Ham
How so? I don't remember the methodists promoting a god who wanted people to be sick and poor..
they just didn't seem entirely sure who/what God is/was.. but what's wrong with a few undefined terms?
"promoting" is I really think the whole issue here.
can you "promote" the Almighty?
I mean.. what kind of promotion do you think you can give Him?
ah. maybe you mean promote as in.. what? How, or in what manner do you suggest you are "promoting" him?
suggesting the existence of?
Defining?
just a few questions..
communication is much easier if we agree on a few terms..
see.. eventually you will have to come to terms with the concept that there are people, not much unlike you, who suffer, etc. etc.. and it really isn't their first choice here..
it might actually end up being YOU..
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waysider
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Ham
Yeah Waysider..
I was going to mention *mr(?)* free doughnuts capone..
but having mentioned him so many times before, I didn't think it would do any good..
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Ham
thanks *mr* (cough) capone..
I dunno. Maybe Capone was more holy and noble.. he didn't try selling God did he?
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waysider
God choosing Wierwille as his spokesman.
That's a little bit like hiring Jeffrey Dahmer to do a "What's For Dinner?" commercial.
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